COVID-19

Irishize

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Respectfully, I would have disdain for any President that allowed 170k of our citizens to perish due to inaction, incompetence, and willfully disregard for scientific data. :)

The problem here is that my initial post had no time frame. I made no allusion to any specific time frame and if you look at the examples I provided they are examples through this year of the admins incoherence and belligerence towards helping our citizens fight the pandemic. So no it’s not my inherent dislike of Trump. I would have the same feelings if it was HRC or Joe Biden or Obama.

I believe that Tussin may have thought I intended that but I didn’t and I explained that (if not clumsily). As I said earlier the response didn’t start or stop in March. It’s currently ongoing. I agree that masks were not called for initially due to data for this disease but masks have been used to protect people from many airborne diseases for a long time so it’s not like this idea just became valid in March.

As far as your assessment that Fauci and the CDC lied. I don’t think they lied and I think they didn’t intentionally misled either. They didn’t have any data to support that masks worked for this disease. They knew they would need the surgical masks for frontline medics because it’s standard operating procedure to use these to protect the docs and nurses as genera practice. I accept that.

Now that data has been obtained and its conclusive masks do work. If you look at the links I posted the WHO and CDC are saying the same thing and Tussin was right that in March both said masks were not necessary. In April with data that opinion changed and they issued those directives. Fauci didn’t lie. He didnt have data to say one way or the other. When he did have day at he gave his opinion to wear masks as a general precaution. The SG and Trump did what they did after. Since April the coherence of recommendations and strategy has been at best awfully inconsistent and sometimes downright ridiculous (bleach and sunshine).

Thanks for reaching out via DM...it was appreciated.

Again, I’ll let Tussin correct me, but I think the two of you were on different wavelengths which happens a lot on a message board where virtual strangers are trying to understand context, sarcasm, etc in a post. Thanks again buddy. And glad to see you’re back.
 

SonofOahu

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Say what you want about Florida’s response or lack of to the virus, but they’ve really crushed the curve. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/

To me, really supports the Sweden response as the right way to dealing with the virus. Controlled spread, secure the elderly, limit indoor gatherings. The bars shut down on June 26th. July 12th they peaked with 15K cases and had a 7 day average around 12K cases. Now, the 7 day average is 4500.

Florida is interesting because of the nature of their population. A large portion of the most vulnerable are not even in Florida right now; they're in Ohio, Michigan, NY, Canada, etc. They come down around November-December.

Florida is surely under-reporting their deaths, though.
 

SonofOahu

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Correct. So we went for toilet paper and pasta instead.

April 2020 was quite a time to be alive. I'll remember it always.

Don't forget the yeast and flour. Everyone turned into Betty Crocker during the lockdowns.
 

TorontoGold

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No it's not just Dems saying he's a bad guy. It's literally trying to remove him from office by the Dems and the media in one form or another since election night.

And the science was wrong at times, conflicted with other science at times and lied to conserve PPE.

So when you have a country that is the size of all of Europe(which is really what we should be comparing ourselves to instead of countrys thats the size of Ohio ) with 50 different states that all operate differently to a degree.
A country that prides itself in personal freedom, work ethic and blue collar toughness: it's only natural that over half the country is going to have the mindset of 'this virus can kill the elderly, so let's keep the elderly at home and let us live our lives so we can get shit done'. It's also natural for much of the country to be skeptical of the Dems and the media after their efforts since election night.

That may sound foreign to you, and as Americans, we get that. But our way of life and attitudes are some of the reasons that we have ruled the world for going on a century now, while your country is considered by the rest of the world as our 'hat'.

So, what you're telling me is that it's the Dems fault for Trump's response? Take a step back for a sec, and rethink it here.

If I'm getting this right - you want to compare the US to Europe, so Europe had 204.8K deaths with a population of 741M, the US 179K with a population of 328M. A population that is 44% of the size of Europe, would mean that to be on par with Europe the US would need only 90K deaths to be on par with Europe. Deaths from Worldometer.info and population from a 1 second google search.

You've consistently since April downplayed this virus. Every couple of weeks without fail there would be a post "Don't downplay the Flu!!1" or "We don't ban cars cuz accidents kill people!". You can blame Fauci/CDC/WHO for the perceived missteps in Jan/Feb/March, but mask mandates changed and everyone adapted to it all over the world, it left you with egg on your face.

To your diatribe about how "I don't understand American values", bud, I am huge consumer of the American values exported up here. The excuse of having a bad pandemic response because your values don't let you, is piss poor.

I can take that comment from someone who lives in a state that is an economic power, but from you? Toronto is a world class city, Nashville is a regional power. (Ontario's GDP is 744B vs Tennessee at 385B probably some conversion rate difference).

America's hat is fine, at least I'm not America's taint.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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I don't buy for a second that we'd be better off right now under a Clinton administration. Public health is a quintessential common good issue, and we're too divided to make the sacrifices necessary to combat such problems.

A society constituted by persons who love their private good above the common good, or who identify the common good with the private good, is a society not of free men, but of tyrants—”and thus the entire people becomes like one tyrant”—who lead each other by force, in which the ultimate head is no one other than the most clever and strong among the tyrants, the subjects being merely frustrated tyrants. This refusal of the common good proceeds, at root, from mistrust and contempt of persons.

-De Koninck
 

Cackalacky2.0

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I don't buy for a second that we'd be better off right now under a Clinton administration. Public health is a quintessential common good issue, and we're too divided to make the sacrifices necessary to combat such problems.



-De Koninck

“The fault dear Brutus....”
-Some English Dude
 

Sea Turtle

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So, what you're telling me is that it's the Dems fault for Trump's response? Take a step back for a sec, and rethink it here.

If I'm getting this right - you want to compare the US to Europe, so Europe had 204.8K deaths with a population of 741M, the US 179K with a population of 328M. A population that is 44% of the size of Europe, would mean that to be on par with Europe the US would need only 90K deaths to be on par with Europe. Deaths from Worldometer.info and population from a 1 second google search.

You've consistently since April downplayed this virus. Every couple of weeks without fail there would be a post "Don't downplay the Flu!!1" or "We don't ban cars cuz accidents kill people!". You can blame Fauci/CDC/WHO for the perceived missteps in Jan/Feb/March, but mask mandates changed and everyone adapted to it all over the world, it left you with egg on your face.

To your diatribe about how "I don't understand American values", bud, I am huge consumer of the American values exported up here. The excuse of having a bad pandemic response because your values don't let you, is piss poor.

I can take that comment from someone who lives in a state that is an economic power, but from you? Toronto is a world class city, Nashville is a regional power. (Ontario's GDP is 744B vs Tennessee at 385B probably some conversion rate difference).

America's hat is fine, at least I'm not America's taint.

No, im telling you it's the Dems and the media's fault for the PUBLICS reaction to this. The skepticism, the cynical attitudes.

Why would you sleep in the flu? It literally kills up to 650,000 people a year. Every year. 60,000 in the US alone. Every year. I never said this wasn't dangerous to the elderly. It is. Everyone else who isn't immune compromised has a better chance of dying in just about any other way imaginable

Bad pandemic response? What would you have the feds do? The US does not have a powerful centralized government. It has 50 governor's that can tell the president and Congress to flip off over just about anything. The national media literally debated the constitutionality of everything that the president could have done.
What could he have done that wouldn't have caused him to be crucified and downright impeached and caused rioting? He banned travel from China and Europe and was castigated as a racist.

He had car manufacturers and apparel companies pumping out ventilators and PPE. Not fast enough, he should have seen our lack of PPE and ventilators and listened to the WHO and China... oh wait they downplayed this virus, lied about many aspects of it, including origin and the communicability.


Should he have banned interstate travel? Think that would fly?

Should he have quarranteened blue state cities NYC, Jersey City, early on like many suggested? Yeah right.

He didn't even have the power to shut the country down. The governors had to do that individually .

Nobody argues that the feds made no mistakes. They made plenty. As did State and local authorities.

Why do you even care, Toronto? You come on here from Canada on a Notre Dame football board and spend most of your time in political or threads like this and bad mouth the leadership of our country. It would be like me going to a European soccer forum and going on their political threads and taking sides and criticizing their leaders. It's inappropriate, to say the least.
 
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JurDocDuLac

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Why do you even care, Toronto? You come on here from Canada on a Notre Dame football board and spend most of your time in political or threads like this and bad mouth the leadership of our country. It would be like me going to a European soccer forum and going on their political threads and taking sides and criticizing their leaders. It's inappropriate, to say the least.

I watch Steve Hilton on Fox.
He´s not an American but gets airtime on Fox to opine about American politics - mostly criticizing duly elected Dem leadership - does not upset me.

Just a few weeks ago, Trump/DHS gave Nigel Farange, not an American either, a special entry permit to attend his Tulsa rally.

And Farange was pretty visible in bad mouthing the then-current leadership of our country in 2016, while in the U.S.

594880140.jpg





(Whiskey, not trying to be contrarian with xenophobia, don´t get me wrong...)




.
 
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phork

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Sweden is a fascinating case. I'm remember reading at the time and most thinking, this will not go well. And, for awhile it didn't. But it seems to have worked out fairly well. A funny personal story. The other day, a family member of mine while sitting around the table complaining about Trump said, "look at how well Sweden is doing, that should be us." To which I replied, "If we took the same approach, people would've lost their damn minds." And she didn't get it, lol.

Classic case of someone only looking at results elsewhere and cherry picking the information of we should've done this and should've done that. When the only thing that seemed likely to work, at the time, was mass lockdowns for extended periods of time.

I honestly believe that various groups would be mad regardless of what Trump did. If he came out in March and locked down the entire country, restricted international travel, interstate travel, put out a national mask mandate, etc. Then we'd be hearing the "he's a dictator" rhetoric or he's abusing his power.

Sweden also has 1/30th the population of the US. Extrapolate that data and its 2.5 million infected and 174k deaths.

No it's not just Dems saying he's a bad guy. It's literally trying to remove him from office by the Dems and the media in one form or another since election night.

And the science was wrong at times, conflicted with other science at times and lied to conserve PPE.

So when you have a country that is the size of all of Europe(which is really what we should be comparing ourselves to instead of countrys thats the size of Ohio ) with 50 different states that all operate differently to a degree.
A country that prides itself in personal freedom, work ethic and blue collar toughness: it's only natural that over half the country is going to have the mindset of 'this virus can kill the elderly, so let's keep the elderly at home and let us live our lives so we can get shit done'. It's also natural for much of the country to be skeptical of the Dems and the media after their efforts since election night.

That may sound foreign to you, and as Americans, we get that. But our way of life and attitudes are some of the reasons that we have ruled the world for going on a century now, while your country is considered by the rest of the world as our 'hat'.

So the US is the only country that prides itself on personal freedom, work ethic and apple pie? Bullshit. You know what the US prides itself on? Itself. See this might be foreign to you, as Canadians we get it, but we kind of pride ourselves in taking care of each other.

Rule the world is an interesting term, while certainly THE super power militarily you fail in a lot of other facets.

I don't buy for a second that we'd be better off right now under a Clinton administration. Public health is a quintessential common good issue, and we're too divided to make the sacrifices necessary to combat such problems.



-De Koninck

Are you saying this because DEMS or you think Clinton was an asshat regardless of party affiliation. I have no horse in the race, just curious.

Bad pandemic response? What would you have the feds do? The US does not have a powerful centralized government. It has 50 governor's that can tell the president and Congress to flip off over just about anything. The national media literally debated the constitutionality of everything that the president could have done.
What could he have done that wouldn't have caused him to be crucified and downright impeached and caused rioting? He banned travel from China and Europe and was castigated as a racist.

He had car manufacturers and apparel companies pumping out ventilators and PPE. Not fast enough, he should have seen our lack of PPE and ventilators and listened to the WHO and China... oh wait they downplayed this virus, lied about many aspects of it, including origin and the communicability.


Should he have banned interstate travel? Think that would fly?

Should he have quarranteened blue state cities NYC, Jersey City, early on like many suggested? Yeah right.

He didn't even have the power to shut the country down. The governors had to do that individually .

Nobody argues that the feds made no mistakes. They made plenty. As did State and local authorities.

Why do you even care, Toronto? You come on here from Canada on a Notre Dame football board and spend most of your time in political or threads like this and bad mouth the leadership of our country. It would be like me going to a European soccer forum and going on their political threads and taking sides and criticizing their leaders. It's inappropriate, to say the least.

What would you have the feds do? How about wear a fucking mask when visiting places like a VA hospital. Go on TV and show the people what needs to happen. Trust and believe in the science. Not some witch doctor peddling hydrochloroquine.
What do you do? You do what needs to be done to protect your people. You have some of the most amazing scientists and doctors on the whole planet but yet people wash them away because Trump says so.

And why does Toronto come here? Because we love ND Football. And like it or not, we are tied at the hip for better or worse. Your politics affect our country. Regardless of party affiliation, I dont like Biden either, Trump is a fucking moron of a human being. I have never witnessed a man in a position of power act like a petulant little child to the degree that he has. Every day its even worse.
So to kind of short statement why Toronto and I come here and talk politics is because we are Canadian. We care about what happens to you, the world. We are not totally self absorbed in our awesomeness to stop giving a shit about every one else.
 

SonofOahu

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I don't buy for a second that we'd be better off right now under a Clinton administration. Public health is a quintessential common good issue, and we're too divided to make the sacrifices necessary to combat such problems.

You know I love you, Whiskey, but this is nonsense. Trump's "ME!" nature has degraded whatever little collective discipline the nation had. You think Clinton would have planned and executed a response so poorly? ...would have actively prevented an organized national testing protocol? ...would have put her self-interest over that of the nation?

The nation is divided, but do you acknowledge that Trump's embrace of nothing but White America has something to do with that? Trump has never been interested in unifying the country, he's only been about dividing it.

Honestly, I don't read through many of your posts because they are quite text heavy, but I believe I've seen you argue about the importance of morality in effective leadership. You don't think immoral and ineffective leadership plays a part in where our nation is?
 

Ndaccountant

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Just want to follow up on one point - what actions did people on the Left do to submarine the direction given by Trump? As far as I know it seems like the most aggressive steps to combat the virus have been taken in the Dem states. If anything, the states that defied the task forces recommendations would be the ones submarining Trump's direction.

"This is no time for Donald Trump's record of hysterical xenophobia" right after he limited air travel to China in January.

Of course, they later back tracked on that once they saw other counties doing the exact same thing. But you can find numerous examples if this.

This how thing is a tragedy. People died when they didn't have to. But from the very beginning, thus whole thing was politicised. Whatever little chance there was at unity across the country was instantly destroyed.
 

phork

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So your entire post is basically 'Trump spoiled brat, your politics affect us Canadians, yes you are the military superpower and Toronto loves ND so much that he rarely posts in ND threads.

Other than that, what else could the feds have done? Wear a fucking mask on a hospital trip, not recommend a drug that, by some accounts, actually work and have more of his daily covid press briefings.

Got it! You're a fucking genius! That would have saved all of those elderly people in nursing homes that never stood a chance. My goodness, why aren't you running Canada? I mean it. Those things you listed are so important to little things like quarantine NYC and Jersey City early on and banning interstate travel. Things that probably would have cut things in half and Trump should have done even though he would have been crucified for. Wow, wear a mask to a VA hospital. I mean, that's it! It's sheer fucking genius.

I know, why don't you worry about your country that we allow to exist, and we will worry about ours. Sound fair?

Sometimes being a leader means you do the hard things that you would be crucified for, hello Jesus. You let history dictate whether you were right or wrong. But based on actual science and people much smarter than us you make an educated decision and go that route and stick it out. With a room full of advisors the brain power must be outstanding. I realize this thing is unprecedented in these times, not so much historically, but really the rest of the world seems to have figured it out. You still have 1k deaths per day. Now all the cases are filtered through the Whitehouse, who knows what the actual numbers are.

Canadians are pussies who will never understand what it takes to be American. Shut up...sit down..and behave like the child you people are...be occasionally seen, and not heard from. Bitch.

Typical. But I don't want to be American thanks.
 

TorontoGold

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No, im telling you it's the Dems and the media's fault for the PUBLICS reaction to this. The skepticism, the cynical attitudes.

Why would you sleep in the flu? It literally kills up to 650,000 people a year. Every year. 60,000 in the US alone. Every year. I never said this wasn't dangerous to the elderly. It is. Everyone else who isn't immune compromised has a better chance of dying in just about any other way imaginable

Bad pandemic response? What would you have the feds do? The US does not have a powerful centralized government. It has 50 governor's that can tell the president and Congress to flip off over just about anything. The national media literally debated the constitutionality of everything that the president could have done.
What could he have done that wouldn't have caused him to be crucified and downright impeached and caused rioting? He banned travel from China and Europe and was castigated as a racist.

He had car manufacturers and apparel companies pumping out ventilators and PPE. Not fast enough, he should have seen our lack of PPE and ventilators and listened to the WHO and China... oh wait they downplayed this virus, lied about many aspects of it, including origin and the communicability.


Should he have banned interstate travel? Think that would fly?

Should he have quarranteened blue state cities NYC, Jersey City, early on like many suggested? Yeah right.

He didn't even have the power to shut the country down. The governors had to do that individually .

Nobody argues that the feds made no mistakes. They made plenty. As did State and local authorities.

Why do you even care, Toronto? You come on here from Canada on a Notre Dame football board and spend most of your time in political or threads like this and bad mouth the leadership of our country. It would be like me going to a European soccer forum and going on their political threads and taking sides and criticizing their leaders. It's inappropriate, to say the least.

The publics reaction is the Dems and Medias fault? And you have the audacity to complain about the politicization of the virus.

Why you compare it to the Flu you down play the severity of it. It's that simple. If you don't get that now, you never will.

It's incredible that you let the American exceptionalism blind you from thinking that other countries don't have similar issues with multiple states/territories/provinces. You didn't address the Europe to US comparisons that were laughable on their face.

You can fill your diaper about WHO/China lying, but that doesn't absolve your pandemic response from criticism when literally every other country dealt with the same "lying". Also, which country in the world has the largest survallience apparatus?

To your purity test on why I don't post more in the football related sections - Well, there is a solid group of posters that know a ton about recruiting and to add a comment like "Wow, great arm on the kid" or "Wish we landed Shipley". Clogs up the thread when we could be reading posts from Crus/Lax/Beau/Dublin/Irish#1/YJ. I love the Thunderdome thread with the hypotheticals and have participated there.

You can take shots about how you let you Canada to exist or how I don't get American values. This just shows your limited understanding of how the whole world works. If it made any sort of sense to take over our country you would have done it already (well, not you of course). It's not inappropriate for me to comment on US politics, when it effects every aspect of my life. When you force your influence on everyone, don't get pissed when people have an opinion.
 

TorontoGold

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"This is no time for Donald Trump's record of hysterical xenophobia" right after he limited air travel to China in January.

Of course, they later back tracked on that once they saw other counties doing the exact same thing. But you can find numerous examples if this.

This how thing is a tragedy. People died when they didn't have to. But from the very beginning, thus whole thing was politicised. Whatever little chance there was at unity across the country was instantly destroyed.

Agree with the sentiment. The lack of letting the medical experts take the reins or believing in science was very detrimental.
 

TorontoGold

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Worry about your country, it's politics and it's pandemic response and we will worry about ours. Seems more than fair.

Yeah the dog shit response by DJT has had a material impact on my country, so it's more than fair I get to say my piece. You don't even seem worried with your response. Get that fever checked, you aren't making sense.
 

Legacy

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Stories from the front lines - the Hot Zones.

The Home Front: Virus Stalks Nurses When They Leave Work (AP news)

Meanwhile, as hospitals try to limit their losses and Covid surges fill beds, nurses are furloughed or let go. State licensing agencies have halted their processes for graduating nurses. Those with Advanced Cardiac Life Support (ACLS) certification are in great demand.

Knowing a patient's discharge is weeks away, who do you intubate? How many beds do you hold for the sickest in the future? Can another hospital take your overflow? Do you start CPR in the field on someone with no pulse and not breathing? Should the nursing homes send all their patients to the ERs with any symptoms? Can you get any qualified staff elsewhere at whatever the cost? Can you afford to go on divert sending patients coming to your ER to another hospital? Do you take any patients from rural areas without ICUs? Which people who verged on admission but were sent home to preserve a bed need to be called in the morning to check to see they have not worsened?
 
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dad4aa

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I am curious to know how many people who post on this board have tested positive. Not someone you know but you, the poster, have tested positive.
 

SonofOahu

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I am curious to know how many people who post on this board have tested positive. Not someone you know but you, the poster, have tested positive.

I just took the test, and came out negative. I didn't have any fever, but I've been going through a recurring pattern of sinus pressure, post-nasal drip, and itchy throat d/t the drip. Usually I wouldn't even give it a second thought, but because about 3/4 of our positive-employees were asymptomatic, I wanted to err on the side of caution. So far, all of our employees have recovered fine.

I'm concerned that the collectors aren't taking the samples correctly, though. The one I went to just put the swab in, let is sit for ten seconds, did a half twist, and then pulled out. When I was discussing the sample technique with our docs, they said the collection should involve some pretty vigorous movement at the nasalpharynx. This draw was not that.

Also, the collector almost forgot to change her gloves before taking my sample (she did another car next to mine, first) so I was not thrilled with the experience.
 

dad4aa

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I just took the test, and came out negative. I didn't have any fever, but I've been going through a recurring pattern of sinus pressure, post-nasal drip, and itchy throat d/t the drip. Usually I wouldn't even give it a second thought, but because about 3/4 of our positive-employees were asymptomatic, I wanted to err on the side of caution. So far, all of our employees have recovered fine.

I'm concerned that the collectors aren't taking the samples correctly, though. The one I went to just put the swab in, let is sit for ten seconds, did a half twist, and then pulled out. When I was discussing the sample technique with our docs, they said the collection should involve some pretty vigorous movement at the nasalpharynx. This draw was not that.

Also, the collector almost forgot to change her gloves before taking my sample (she did another car next to mine, first) so I was not thrilled with the experience.

A couple of people tested here (my son included) do the test themselves. They go into the clinic and are given a swab. They are told to insert it into each nostril and circle five times. Not sure if everybody will do it correctly when they have never done a swab before. I tested negative but doctor was convinced it was a false negative and after I recovered I tested positive for the antibodies.
 

IrishLax

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Just had to delete about 20 posts because it got way out of bounds. Please keep political comments germane to COVID.

"Canada is for pussies" and the equivalent is obviously trolling and not productive. Same thing with talking about whether someone is "too dumb" to get into ND. Consider this a blanket warning, I have no interest in banning people or moving this thread to the political subforum but I also don't want to spend time deleting dozens of posts.
 

tussin

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Here is an article in the WSJ about the evolving approach to COVID:

In response to the novel and deadly coronavirus, many governments deployed draconian tactics never used in modern times: severe and broad restrictions on daily activity that helped send the world into its deepest peacetime slump since the Great Depression.

The equivalent of 400 million jobs have been lost world-wide, 13 million in the U.S. alone. Global output is on track to fall 5% this year, far worse than during the financial crisis, according to the International Monetary Fund.

Despite this steep price, few policy makers felt they had a choice, seeing the economic crisis as a side effect of the health crisis. They ordered nonessential businesses closed and told people to stay home, all without the extensive analysis of benefits and risks that usually precedes a new medical treatment.

There wasn’t time to gather that sort of evidence: Faced with a poorly understood and rapidly spreading pathogen, they prioritized saving lives.

Five months later, the evidence suggests lockdowns were an overly blunt and economically costly tool. They are politically difficult to keep in place for long enough to stamp out the virus. The evidence also points to alternative strategies that could slow the spread of the epidemic at much less cost. As cases flare up throughout the U.S., some experts are urging policy makers to pursue these more targeted restrictions and interventions rather than another crippling round of lockdowns.

“We’re on the cusp of an economic catastrophe,” said James Stock, a Harvard University economist who, with Harvard epidemiologist Michael Mina and others, is modeling how to avoid a surge in deaths without a deeply damaging lockdown. “We can avoid the worst of that catastrophe by being disciplined,” Mr. Stock said.

The economic pain from pandemics mostly comes not from sick people but from healthy people trying not to get sick: consumers and workers who stay home, and businesses that rearrange or suspend production. A lot of this is voluntary, so some economic hit is inevitable whether or not governments impose restrictions.

Disentangling voluntary and government-ordered effects is hard. One study, by economists Austan Goolsbee and Chad Syverson at the University of Chicago, says government restrictions account for just 12% of the decline in consumer mobility in the U.S.; another, by a team led by economists Kosali Simon at Indiana University and Bruce Weinberg at Ohio State, says they account for 60% of the loss of employment.

Still, because of the close connection between the pandemic and economic activity, many epidemiologists and economists say the economy can’t recover while the virus is out of control. “The virus is going to determine when we can safely reopen,” Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said in April. The Federal Reserve said in late July that “the path of the economy will depend significantly on the course of the virus.”

Such statements leave wide open what represents an acceptable level of infection, which in turn determines what restrictions to impose. If the only acceptable level of infection were zero, lockdowns would have to be severe and potentially repeated, or at least until an effective vaccine or treatment comes along. Most countries have rejected that course.

Prior to Covid-19, lockdowns weren’t part of the standard epidemic tool kit, which was primarily designed with flu in mind.

During the 1918-1919 flu pandemic, some American cities closed schools, churches and theaters, banned large gatherings and funerals and restricted store hours. But none imposed stay-at-home orders or closed all nonessential businesses. No such measures were imposed during the 1957 flu pandemic, the next-deadliest one; even schools stayed open.

Lockdowns weren’t part of the contemporary playbook, either. Canada’s pandemic guidelines concluded that restrictions on movement were “impractical, if not impossible.” The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in its 2017 community mitigation guidelines for pandemic flu, didn’t recommend stay-at-home orders or closing nonessential businesses even for a flu as severe as the one a century ago.

So when China locked down Wuhan and surrounding Hubei province in January, and Italy imposed blanket stay-at-home orders in March, many epidemiologists elsewhere thought the steps were unnecessarily harmful and potentially ineffective.

By late March, they had changed their minds. The sight of hospitals in Italy overwhelmed with dying patients shocked people in other countries. Covid-19 was much deadlier than flu, it was able to spread asymptomatically, and it had no vaccine or effective therapy.

Taiwan, South Korea and Hong Kong set early examples of how to stop Covid-19 without lockdowns. Their reflexes trained by SARS in 2003, MERS and avian flu, they quickly cut travel to China, introduced widespread testing to isolate the infected and traced contacts. Their populations quickly donned face masks.

Sweden took a different approach. Instead of lockdowns, it imposed only modest restrictions to keep cases at levels its hospitals could handle.

Sweden has suffered more deaths per capita than neighboring Denmark but fewer than Britain, and it has paid less of an economic price than either, according to JPMorgan Chase & Co.

Sweden’s current infection and death rates are as low as the rest of Europe’s, suggesting to some experts the country may be approaching herd immunity. That is the point at which enough of the population is immune, due to prior exposure or vaccination, so that person-to-person transmission declines and the epidemic dies out.

By March, it was too late for the U.S. to emulate the test-and-trace strategy of east Asia. The CDC had botched the initial development and distribution of tests, and limited testing capacity meant countless infections went undetected for months. President Trump continued to downplay testing, and even today the U.S. conducts fewer than 20 tests for every confirmed case, compared with more than 500 in Taiwan and South Korea at their peaks.

The Swedish strategy was also taken off the table. Britain ditched it in mid-March after a team of experts from London’s Imperial College predicted that in the absence of social distancing, 81% of the population would eventually be infected, while 510,000 people would die in Britain and 2.2 million in the U.S.

Those estimates may have been high. Some experts think it takes less than 81% of a population to reach herd immunity. Nonetheless, such predictions helped persuade leaders in Britain and the U.S. to lock down.

Yet at the outset, their goals were unclear, a confusion aggravated by the multitude of terms used. Officials sometimes said their goal was “bending” or “flattening the curve,” which originally meant spreading infections over time so the daily peak never overwhelmed hospitals. At other times they described their aims as “mitigation” or “containment” or “suppression,” often interchangeably.

“There have been few attempts to truly define the goal, and partly it’s because policy makers and epidemiologists haven’t thought well enough about the vocabulary to define what they mean or want,” said Dr. Mina, the Harvard epidemiologist.

A key determinant in an epidemic’s spread is the reproduction number, or “R value”: how many people each infected person goes on to infect. When R is above one, new infections continue until enough of the population has been infected or vaccinated to achieve herd immunity. When R is below one, new infections eventually fall to zero, although imported infections can trigger outbreaks. Dr. Mina said mitigation generally aims for an R of just above one, while suppression aims for an R of below one.

The U.S. never resolved “whether we were going for mitigation or suppression,” said Paul Romer, a Nobel laureate economist. Mitigation, he said, meant accepting hundreds of thousands of additional deaths to achieve herd immunity, which no leaders were willing to embrace. But total suppression of the disease “doesn’t make sense unless you’re going to stick with it as long as it takes.”

Some countries did achieve suppression through lockdowns. China wiped out the epidemic in Hubei province and has suppressed subsequent outbreaks elsewhere, with sweeping quarantine and surveillance methods that are difficult to replicate in Western democracies.

New Zealand imposed one of the most stringent lockdowns for two months. The country—relatively small and geographically isolated—went on to enjoy 102 days without a new case. Nonetheless, an outbreak this month prompted a reimposition of widespread restrictions.

The U.S. for the most part lacked China’s authoritarian bent and New Zealand’s patience. Asked in March if lockdowns would last months, President Trump replied: “I hope it disappears faster than that.” Indeed, at the end of March his health advisers suggested one more month of restrictions would be enough.

In mid-April, his health advisers issued guidelines for when states with lockdowns should reopen, including 14 days of declining cases and the ability to test and trace anyone with flulike symptoms. “The predominant and completely driving element that we put into this was the safety and the health of the American public,” Dr. Fauci told reporters.

But that same day Mr. Trump made it clear his priority was the economy: “A prolonged lockdown combined with a forced economic depression would inflict an immense and wide-ranging toll on public health,” he said. Within weeks he was praising states that had reopened despite not meeting the guidelines and was tweeting “LIBERATE” to supporters protesting lockdowns.

Many Republican governors prioritized their economies, but some Democrats more committed to lockdowns also struggled to stay the course. When California became the first state to issue a stay-at-home order on March 19, its Democratic governor, Gavin Newsom, said the goal was to “bend the curve.”

On May 7, he signaled an unusually ambitious goal: Only counties with zero deaths in the past two weeks and no more than one case per 10,000 residents could reopen ahead of schedule—criteria that 95% of the state couldn’t meet, according to the Los Angeles Times.

Mr. Newsom said science and data would dictate when the stay-at-home order was lifted. Economic and social pressures soon intruded, as county leaders pushed him to relax the criteria. On May 18 he did, dropping the no-death requirement and raising the case cutoff to 25 per 100,000.

Counties quickly began opening. A month later, California’s cases began surging again, far surpassing previous highs.

“I wouldn’t say our strategy ever really changed,” said Mark Ghaly, the state’s secretary of health and human services. “We needed to get [infections] low enough to where our systems can handle sick people.”

Dr. Ghaly said “there were conversations” about pursuing total suppression, as New Zealand had done, but that would have required an early, nationwide commitment, which wasn’t possible with very different views across the country.

The impact of lockdowns on families, the economy and mental health also mattered, he said: “When you see unemployment numbers going through the roof, businesses not just threatened week to week but potentially [never] being open again, you have to take that into account,” said Dr. Ghaly.

Dr. Mina of Harvard said the U.S. at the outset could have chosen to prioritize the economy, as Sweden did, and accept the deaths, or it could have chosen to fully prioritize health by staying locked down until new infections were so low that testing and tracing could control new outbreaks, as some northeastern states such as Rhode Island did.

Most of the U.S. did neither. The result was “a complete disaster. We’re harming the economy, waffling back and forth between what is right, what is wrong with a slow drift of companies closing their doors for good,” Dr. Mina said.

The experience of the past five months suggests the need for an alternative: Rather than lockdowns, using only those measures proven to maximize lives saved while minimizing economic and social disruption. “Emphasize the reopening of the highest economic benefit, lowest risk endeavors,” said Dr. Mina.

Social distancing policies, for instance, can take into account widely varying risks by age. The virus is especially deadly for the elderly. Nursing homes account for 0.6% of the population but 45% of Covid fatalities, says the Foundation for Research on Equal Opportunity, a conservative-leaning think tank. Better isolating those residents would have saved many lives at little economic cost, it says.

By contrast, fewer children have died this year from Covid-19 than from flu. And studies in Sweden, where most schools stayed open, and the Netherlands, where they reopened in May, found teachers at no greater risk than the overall population. This suggests reopening schools outside of hot spots, with protective measures, shouldn’t worsen the epidemic, while alleviating the toll on working parents and on children.

If schools don’t reopen until next January, McKinsey & Co. estimates, low-income children will have lost a year of education, which it says translates into 4% lower lifetime earnings.

Research by Dr. Mina and others has shown that “super-spreader” events contribute disproportionately to infections, in particular dense indoor gatherings with talking, singing and shouting, such as at weddings, sporting events, religious services, nightclubs and bars.

Bars and restaurants accounted for 16% of Covid-19 clusters (five or more cases) in Japan; workplaces, just 11%. Bars, restaurants and casinos accounted for 32% of infections traced to multiple-case outbreaks in Louisiana.

Masks may be the most cost-effective intervention of all. Both the World Health Organization and the U.S. Surgeon General discouraged their use for months despite prior CDC guidance that they could limit the spread of flu by preventing the wearer from transmitting the disease.

The German city of Jena in early April ordered residents to wear masks in public places, public transit and at work. Soon afterward, infections came to a halt. Comparing it to similar cities, a study for the IZA Institute of Labor Economics estimated masks reduced the growth of infections by 40% to 60%.

Klaus Wälde, one of the authors, said nationwide mask wearing is helping the German economy return to normal while keeping infections low. Goldman Sachs Group Inc. estimates a universal mask mandate in the U.S. could now save 5% of gross domestic product by substituting for more onerous lockdowns.

Some epidemiologists and economists argue ramped-up testing could enable the economy to reopen safely without a vaccine. Mr. Romer estimates the U.S. could restore $1,000 in economic activity for every $10 spent on tests.

Dr. Mina pointed to a paper-strip test anyone can use to detect the virus in a sample of saliva in minutes. It is less accurate but far faster and cheaper than sending samples to labs, he said. If 50% to 60% of the population in hot spots took such a test every other day, the disease could be suppressed, he said.

Dr. Mina’s and Mr. Stock’s team has designed a “smart” reopening plan based on contact frequency and vulnerability of five demographic groups and 66 economic sectors. It assumes most businesses reopen using industry guidelines on physical distancing, hygiene and working from home; schools reopen; masks are required; and churches, indoor sports venues and bars stay closed.

They estimated in June that this would result in 335,000 fewer U.S. deaths by the end of this year than if all restrictions were immediately lifted. But they say the plan also would leave economic output 10% higher than if a second round of lockdowns were imposed.

“If you use all these measures, it leaves lots of room for the economy to reopen with a very small number of deaths,” Mr. Stock said. “Economic shutdowns are a blunt and very costly tool.”

The U.S. South and Southwest have provided some real-time experiments in targeted lockdowns. Arizona imposed a stay-at-home order in March and rescinded it in early May.

When cases soared, Republican Gov. Douglas Ducey resisted reimposing restrictions or requiring masks. He then eventually allowed cities to require masks, ordered bars, gyms, movie theaters and water parks to close and told restaurants to operate at no more than 50% capacity. Gatherings of more than 50 people were prohibited and masks strongly encouraged. But he didn’t lock down the entire state. Cases and hospitalizations have since fallen sharply to early May levels, or lower.

California, similarly, ordered indoor activities at restaurants, bars, museums, zoos and movie theaters to close in mid-July, but didn’t issue a stay-at-home order, prohibit outdoor activities or suspend elective surgery, as it had in March and April. Cases have begun to drop, while hospitalizations have declined 35% since their July peak.

“In March, people didn’t realize the benefits of mask use,” said Dr. Ghaly, the state’s secretary of health and human services. “The evidence on being outdoors rather than indoors is quite compelling.” Compared to April, “We know so much more.”
 

Legacy

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In true Hawaii fashion, we're experiencing our peak about a month after the mainland. Same with flu, actually. Our numbers are, relatively, getting up there. All Oahu hospitals are now in multiple weekly-conversations in preparation for our surge needs.

The biggest hospital has about 100 patients, and is opening its fourth COVID unit. They're transferring less-acute patients to the other hospitals to create space. It's a very coordinated exercise, because we have a strong association and emergency-management apparatus.

Legacy, to answer your question, staffing will be a limiting factor in how well we can absorb patients. We all have enough space, but probably not enough staff. The travel-RN rate is at about $130 per hour.

We're seeing a lot of asymptomatic positive cases. I'm not sure if I'm one of them; I may get tested tomorrow. This illness really plays with your mind, as every damn symptom makes you go "crap, is it the 'rona?"

Sounds like you are as prepared as possible with planning and protocols in place. At this point, no one anywhere should not know what to do to limit transmission or have much of a difference on triaging. The costs just for traveling RNs if you have to increase your nursing staff by 20% must trash a budget by itself.

Some of this may have been discussed here but worth posting.

What if ‘Herd Immunity’ Is Closer Than Scientists Thought?
In what may be the world’s most important math puzzle, researchers are trying to figure out how many people in a community must be immune before the coronavirus fades.
(NYT, Science Times section)

Those health care professionals who have antibodies may be in demand.
 

SonofOahu

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Just had to delete about 20 posts because it got way out of bounds. Please keep political comments germane to COVID.

"Canada is for pussies" and the equivalent is obviously trolling and not productive. Same thing with talking about whether someone is "too dumb" to get into ND. Consider this a blanket warning, I have no interest in banning people or moving this thread to the political subforum but I also don't want to spend time deleting dozens of posts.

My bad.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Are you saying this because DEMS or you think Clinton was an asshat regardless of party affiliation. I have no horse in the race, just curious.

You know I love you, Whiskey, but this is nonsense. Trump's "ME!" nature has degraded whatever little collective discipline the nation had. You think Clinton would have planned and executed a response so poorly? ...would have actively prevented an organized national testing protocol? ...would have put her self-interest over that of the nation?

The nation is divided, but do you acknowledge that Trump's embrace of nothing but White America has something to do with that? Trump has never been interested in unifying the country, he's only been about dividing it.

Honestly, I don't read through many of your posts because they are quite text heavy, but I believe I've seen you argue about the importance of morality in effective leadership. You don't think immoral and ineffective leadership plays a part in where our nation is?

You're kidding yourself if you think we'd be any less divided under a Hillary Clinton administration. The factors that prevent us from being able to coordinate and enforce a competent response to this virus cannot be addressed by voting a different party into the White House.

Consider this counter-factual (click through for the whole thread):

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">It’s very easy to imagine an alternative scenario where Trump embraces lockdowns and draconian Coronavirus measures and, consequently, they are deemed un-American, tyrannical, and xenophobic by the liberal left, who become champions of the anti-mask and anti-lockdown movement. <a href="https://t.co/KLx9pm2tnW">https://t.co/KLx9pm2tnW</a></p>— Chateaubriand ن (@Chateaubriand__) <a href="https://twitter.com/Chateaubriand__/status/1297190096517595136?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 22, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

There's no real principle underlying these positions. You're Big Mad™ at Trump because you consume media intended to produce that effect in you. My parents are similarly deranged when it comes to the DNC and BLM because they watch Fox News. Save your sanity and just stop drinking this poison. Whether or not you vote this November isn't going to change a damn thing.
 
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