Game of Thrones

[Whiskeyjack]

I haven't read the books so I may be totally wrong here, but is it possible that Ramsay orchestrated this massive conspiracy and we just don't know about it yet in order to maintain the surprise of the Roose assassination? I believe Ramsay mentioned they would need the support of only 3 houses to maintain the North (Karstark, Manderly, and Umber I believe? Could be wrong there). The Karstarks are clearly in on the plan already, could it be that Ramsay has convinced the Manderlys and Umbers to support him as well?

In the books? Extremely unlikely. Ramsay isn't capable of that sort of political intrigue, the Manderlys hate the Boltons, and while they've got a few shady Umbers on their side, the bulk of the family is allied with Stannis at the end of ADwD. What that means for the show is anyone's guess. Though during the D&D commentary after last night's episode, they emphasized what a difficult position Ramsay has put himself in by killing his father. Roose has been walking a political tight-rope for the last several seasons, and now Ramsay has to step into his shoes and do it alone. I assume last night's assassination was intended to be the first big mistake he makes.

 

[NDVirginia19]

I've watched the whole series, but hearing everybody talk about the tower of joy and the implications behind it got me to order one of the books. can't wait to start them and read over the summer!

 

[wizards8507]

I've watched the whole series, but hearing everybody talk about the tower of joy and the implications behind it got me to order one of the books. can't wait to start them and read over the summer!

The Tourney at Harrenhal eats Tower of Joy for breakfast, but I'm in the minority on that one.

 

[IrishLax]

The Tourney at Harrenhal eats Tower of Joy for breakfast, but I'm in the minority on that one.

You think we get that too? Or nah? I agree with you, because it'd be awesome to see a live Rhaegar and everyone all "ohhhhh shiiiiiiiiiiiiiitttttttttttttttt"...

 

[wizards8507]

You think we get that too? Or nah? I agree with you, because it'd be awesome to see a live Rhaegar and everyone all "ohhhhh shiiiiiiiiiiiiiitttttttttttttttt"...

I also think the Tower of Joy loses a lot of significance when show viewers haven't been bombarded with the legend of Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

ETA: Now that I think of it, I suspect show-only people are about as familiar with "Rhaegar" as they are "Arthur Dayne."

 

[IrishLax]

In the books? Extremely unlikely. Ramsay isn't capable of that sort of political intrigue, the Manderlys hate the Boltons, and while they've got a few shady Umbers on their side, the bulk of the family is allied with Stannis at the end of ADwD. What that means for the show is anyone's guess. Though during the D&D commentary after last night's episode, they emphasized what a difficult position Ramsay has put himself in by killing his father. Roose has been walking a political tight-rope for the last several seasons, and now Ramsay has to step into his shoes and do it alone. I assume last night's assassination was intended to be the first big mistake he makes.

Exactly, I thought the show did a good job of showing that Roose is politically savvy and downright cunning, whereas Ramsay sadistic tendencies lead him to reckless and egregious errors.

A long time ago, when Ramsay first took over the north, he's out tax collecting and flays the Cerwyns alive. Roose gets pissed at him. This pattern repeats again and again with Ramsay displaying resourcefulness looking for affection from his father, but more often than not utterly disappointing or angering him. Losing Sansa and Theon was sort of the straw that broke the camel's back, and it appears even Ramsay realized it. So he did what he does best and illogically killed someone he desperately needs to be alive.

 

[wizards8507]

Exactly, I thought the show did a good job of showing that Roose is politically savvy and downright cunning, whereas Ramsay sadistic tendencies lead him to reckless and egregious errors.

A long time ago, when Ramsay first took over the north, he's out tax collecting and flays the Cerwyns alive. Roose gets pissed at him. This pattern repeats again and again with Ramsay displaying resourcefulness looking for affection from his father, but more often than not utterly disappointing or angering him. Losing Sansa and Theon was sort of the straw that broke the camel's back, and it appears even Ramsay realized it. So he did what he does best and illogically killed someone he desperately needs to be alive.

To me, this weakens the ultimate triumph of the Alliance to Restore the North (my term) from a narrative perspective. Ramsay self-destructing is going to be a lot less suspenseful and ultimately satisfying that Roose being outmaneuvered by a series of shrewd political moves from the Stark loyalists.

 

[IrishLax]

To me, this weakens the ultimate triumph of the Alliance to Restore the North (my term) from a narrative perspective. Ramsay self-destructing is going to be a lot less suspenseful and ultimately satisfying that Roose being outmaneuvered by a series of shrewd political moves from the Stark loyalists.

I completely agree, the intriguing part of the books is that the Manderlys are basically like "yeah? well two can play your game..." after feigning incompetence, weakness, and allegiance.

In a similar vein, the worst thing about Dorne is that Doran was also hustling hard in the background, but in the show they just made him a puss with no long game. Such a waste.

 

[greyhammer90]

She's pretty popular among lady book readers. #Feminism and all that. Everyone wants her to be a dragonrider and some kind of savior queen but I'm hoping she goes full Mad King.

This is so much more likely than her becoming a great leader. She's a crazy warmongering psycho with no respect for any culture she doesn't immediately understand who wants to rule a continent she's never seen and is willing to use creatures way out of her control to do it. But she's hot so she's obviously a protagonist.

 

[ND NYC]

Winds of Winter release date news 2016: Sixth book in the 'A Song of Ice and Fire' series may arrive in May

 

[gkIrish]

Winds of Winter release date news 2016: Sixth book in the 'A Song of Ice and Fire' series may arrive in May

That's misleading. Nothing in that article supports the idea that it will come out in May unless I missed something.

 

[GATTACA!]

This is so much more likely than her becoming a great leader. She's a crazy warmongering psycho with no respect for any culture she doesn't immediately understand

I've never really understood the hate for her. I mean she's trying to eliminate slavery, it's not like she's pissing on their culture for the fun of it. Same thing with the fighting pits, she even relents with the condition that all participants are free men.

who wants to rule a continent she's never seen

Ehh she thinks it's her birthright. What makes her claims any more ridiculous than Robb's claims to the north?

and is willing to use creatures way out of her control to do it. But she's hot so she's obviously a protagonist

Her family all used them for generations it's not something she came up with out of the blue. Plus she took responsibility the first time Drogon got out of control and killed an innocent person and chained up her dragons.

You need to keep in mind the fact that Daenerys is 13 when GoT starts. She's an irrational child. Bad decisions don't make her a bad person. I think actually if you look at the characters history she more or less displays a pretty good moral compass.

I could totally see her transforming into a crazy "Mad Queen" eventually.

 

[greyhammer90]

I've never really understood the hate for her. I mean she's trying to eliminate slavery, it's not like she's pissing on their culture for the fun of it. Same thing with the fighting pits, she even relents with the condition that all participants are free men.



Ehh she thinks it's her birthright. What makes her claims any more ridiculous than Robb's claims to the north?



Her family all used them for generations it's not something she came up with out of the blue. Plus she took responsibility the first time Drogon got out of control and killed an innocent person and chained up her dragons.

You need to keep in mind the fact that Daenerys is 13 when GoT starts. She's an irrational child. Bad decisions don't make her a bad person. I think actually if you look at the characters history she more or less displays a pretty good moral compass.

I could totally see her transforming into a crazy "Mad Queen" eventually.

That's kind of my point though, she's a child with a severe case of stockholm syndrome for her rapist/murdering/pillaging husband that now has the power to lead but no understanding of her people, how to control her power, or how her actions can have horrible consequences. Sure she has a tragic backstory, but this is Game of Thrones.

You know who else was given to a warlord for sex as a child, has aspirations to rule, doesn't understand how to rule, and is willing to kill whoever stands against her?

 

[GATTACA!]

That's kind of my point though, she's a child with a severe case of stockholm syndrome for her rapist/murdering/pillaging husband that now has the power to lead but no understanding of her people, how to control her power, or how her actions can have horrible consequences. Sure she has a tragic backstory, but this is Game of Thrones.

You know who else was given to a warlord for sex as a child, has aspirations to rule, doesn't understand how to rule, and is willing to kill whoever stands against her?

There are a bunch of huge differences between Daenerys and Cersei. Cersei is a grown woman. She is guilty of way more sins than Dany including adultery, incest, and murder. She's a liar and manipulator something we haven't seen from Daenerys. She's just generally a cruel person with little to no compassion for anyone. Daenerys seems to be at least doing what she thinks is the right thing to do for the innocent people of Essos rather than just what will help her retake the seven kingdoms. She would have been much better off setting sail, instead she chose to go back to meereen because she felt it was her duty to free it's people.

Edit: Also you're bringing up Drago as if his influence has made her more crazy something? She was appalled by the way they killed raped and pillaged innocent people. She did her best to reign in their actions as well.

 

[ACamp1900]

BTW, a very common theme for episodes most people seem to love is that there is little to no Daenarys. I.e. last night, Hardhome.

She sucks...

For me, when reading the books, her chapters were such a chore to get through,.... by the last couple books I started to straight up skip her chapters, nothing interesting ever happens in her story and there was nothing really about her or her story to me that ever drew me in... with the little I watched of the show I got he same exact vibe...

 

[johnnycando]

That's kind of my point though, she's a child with a severe case of stockholm syndrome for her rapist/murdering/pillaging husband that now has the power to lead but no understanding of her people, how to control her power, or how her actions can have horrible consequences. Sure she has a tragic backstory, but this is Game of Thrones.

You know who else was given to a warlord for sex as a child, has aspirations to rule, doesn't understand how to rule, and is willing to kill whoever stands against her?

I was gonna say Hillary Clinton but I guess the picture and thread gave it away.

 

[GreyWorm]

Need more Greyworm.

 

[greyhammer90]

There are a bunch of huge differences between Daenerys and Cersei. Cersei is a grown woman. She is guilty of way more sins than Dany including adultery, incest, and murder. She's a liar and manipulator something we haven't seen from Daenerys. She's just generally a cruel person with little to no compassion for anyone. Daenerys seems to be at least doing what she thinks is the right thing to do for the innocent people of Essos rather than just what will help her retake the seven kingdoms. She would have been much better off setting sail, instead she chose to go back to meereen because she felt it was her duty to free it's people.

Edit: Also you're bringing up Drago as if his influence has made her more crazy something? She was appalled by the way they killed raped and pillaged innocent people. She did her best to reign in their actions as well.

Obviously this is all IMO:

I view Dany as Cersei with an innocent/waifu element that makes people who aren't paying attention like her. She's basically an idiot (or child) with a ton of power that is convinced of her ability to be a great ruler. Even her mission to free slaves is annoying to me. It strikes me less as her "doing what's right" and more her indulging in her own personal fable again and playing this game of "What would the Mother of Dragons do?" And the hilarious thing is that she even f*cks that up. She isn't changing anything, the slavers just take over immediately as soon as she's gone. Dany is basically the broadest stereotype of American foreign policy in flesh.

I bring up Drago because her continued love for a guy who orchestrated and led the rape/murder of hundreds of thousands of people shows that she's not a stable individual. Drago was basically Atilla the Hun. She thinks that guy is her "sun and stars." That's not her fault, because again, 13 years old/stockholm syndrome, but that doesn't mean I have to root for her or like who she is. And like I alluded to with Cersei, everyone has a tragic backstory here. I can only judge her by what she is. She's a warlord who sucks at warlording.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

This is so much more likely than her becoming a great leader. She's a crazy warmongering psycho with no respect for any culture she doesn't immediately understand who wants to rule a continent she's never seen and is willing to use creatures way out of her control to do it. But she's hot so she's obviously a protagonist.

Martin alludes to this outcome heavily in the books. Jorah warns Dany that the Westerosi will not welcome her if she arrives at the head of a slave army. Barristan watches her carefully for signs of Aerys' madness. And then at the end of ADwD, she remembers her family's words ("Fire and Blood") while hallucinating/ literally going mad.

The odds of a mentally-unstable teenage girl with three weapons of mass destruction turning out well are not good.

 

[Emcee77]

Obviously this is all IMO:

I view Dany as Cersei with an innocent/waifu element that makes people who aren't paying attention like her. She's basically an idiot (or child) with a ton of power that is convinced of her ability to be a great ruler. Even her mission to free slaves is annoying to me. It strikes me less as her "doing what's right" and more her indulging in her own personal fable again and playing this game of "What would the Mother of Dragons do?" And the hilarious thing is that she even f*cks that up. She isn't changing anything, the slavers just take over immediately as soon as she's gone. Dany is basically the broadest stereotype of American foreign policy in flesh.

I bring up Drago because her continued love for a guy who orchestrated and led the rape/murder of hundreds of thousands of people shows that she's not a stable individual. Drago was basically Atilla the Hun. She thinks that guy is her "sun and stars." That's not her fault, because again, 13 years old/stockholm syndrome, but that doesn't mean I have to root for her or like who she is. And like I alluded to with Cersei, everyone has a tragic backstory here. I can only judge her by what she is. She's a warlord who sucks at warlording.

And that's by design, right? I am sure I read somewhere that GRRM's Meereen storyline was influenced by Dubya's Iraq War.

 

[gkIrish]

For me, when reading the books, her chapters were such a chore to get through,.... by the last couple books I started to straight up skip her chapters, nothing interesting ever happens in her story and there was nothing really about her or her story to me that ever drew me in... with the little I watched of the show I got he same exact vibe...

Totally agree. Her chapters were a huge chore but I'm a big Jorah fan so that was at least helpful until they parted ways.

 

[GATTACA!]

Obviously this is all IMO:

I view Dany as Cersei with an innocent/waifu element that makes people who aren't paying attention like her. She's basically an idiot (or child) with a ton of power that is convinced of her ability to be a great ruler. Even her mission to free slaves is annoying to me. It strikes me less as her "doing what's right" and more her indulging in her own personal fable again and playing this game of "What would the Mother of Dragons do?" And the hilarious thing is that she even f*cks that up. She isn't changing anything, the slavers just take over immediately as soon as she's gone. Dany is basically the broadest stereotype of American foreign policy in flesh.

I bring up Drago because her continued love for a guy who orchestrated and led the rape/murder of hundreds of thousands of people shows that she's not a stable individual. Drago was basically Atilla the Hun. She thinks that guy is her "sun and stars." That's not her fault, because again, 13 years old/stockholm syndrome, but that doesn't mean I have to root for her or like who she is. And like I alluded to with Cersei, everyone has a tragic backstory here. I can only judge her by what she is. She's a warlord who sucks at warlording.

Sorry I'm not sure are you a book reader? I can see you perspective more from the shows point of view. Lots of the characters actions get muddeled without the aid of the inner monolog. While I agree lots of her efforts are misplaced and she's not going about freeing slavers Bay in the right manner, it's clear from her chapters that she's doing what she's doing out of a place of compassion. Thats not to say you have to like her for it or root for her or see her as the main protagonist. I just think it's a big distinction between her and Cersei. There's no damn way Cersei would want to free those slaves.

I agree her love for Drago is irrational, it's very hypocritical to ignore everything he had done that went against everything she seem to stand for. I think part of it has to do with her sense of abandonment. This is the first person that she probably felt close to that she felt resiprocated her feelings. I wonder if maybe her trip to Vaes Dothrok will explore some of these themes. Maybe her leaving on Drogon and breaking the tradition of the widows will be a chance for the character to grow and move past Drago.......probably not though. I think she will probably just unite a khalasar to help he on her quest west.

 

[ACamp1900]

Sorry I'm not sure are you a book reader? I can see you perspective more from the shows point of view. Lots of the characters actions get muddeled without the aid of the inner monolog. While I agree lots of her efforts are misplaced and she's not going about freeing slavers Bay in the right manner, it's clear from her chapters that she's doing what she's doing out of a place of compassion. Thats not to say you have to like her for it or root for her or see her as the main protagonist. I just think it's a big distinction between her and Cersei. There's no damn way Cersei would want to free those slaves.

I agree her love for Drago is irrational, it's very hypocritical to ignore everything he had done that went against everything she seem to stand for. I think part of it has to do with her sense of abandonment. This is the first person that she probably felt close to that she felt resiprocated her feelings. I wonder if maybe her trip to Vaes Dothrok will explore some of these themes. Maybe her leaving on Drogon and breaking the tradition of the widows will be a chance for the character to grow and move past Drago.......probably not though. I think she will probably just unite a khalasar to help he on her quest west.

Admit it dude, you just have a very real thing for young bleach blonde girls with no curves...

 

[GATTACA!]

For me, when reading the books, her chapters were such a chore to get through,.... by the last couple books I started to straight up skip her chapters, nothing interesting ever happens in her story and there was nothing really about her or her story to me that ever drew me in... with the little I watched of the show I got he same exact vibe...

Totally agree. This is one of the glaring negatives of GRRM extending the series past what he originally intended. There is basically nothing for Daenerys to do besides "side quests" that won't progress her endgame storyline too far. Basically as soon as she sets out to head west word will get out and travel over to the seven kingdoms. It's really hard to cover up the fact that a giant army with three Dragons is marching across the realm. Hell Bobby Baratheon knew about Daenerys way back in GoT. So once the word is out it would have a butterfly effect on most of the other characters. Suddenly the northern Lords don't really care who is the king in the north they are more worried about the outside threat. Same with the southern houses. Forget Dorne we have to prepare for Dragons. So basically GRRM has to wait to until the very last second after all of the pieces are set up before he has her March.

Her storyline is completely cut from an entire book and it still feels stretched to the max

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Sorry I'm not sure are you a book reader? I can see you perspective more from the shows point of view. Lots of the characters actions get muddeled without the aid of the inner monolog. While I agree lots of her efforts are misplaced and she's not going about freeing slavers Bay in the right manner, it's clear from her chapters that she's doing what she's doing out of a place of compassion. Thats not to say you have to like her for it or root for her or see her as the main protagonist. I just think it's a big distinction between her and Cersei. There's no damn way Cersei would want to free those slaves.

I agree her love for Drago is irrational, it's very hypocritical to ignore everything he had done that went against everything she seem to stand for. I think part of it has to do with her sense of abandonment. This is the first person that she probably felt close to that she felt resiprocated her feelings. I wonder if maybe her trip to Vaes Dothrok will explore some of these themes. Maybe her leaving on Drogon and breaking the tradition of the widows will be a chance for the character to grow and move past Drago.......probably not though. I think she will probably just unite a khalasar to help he on her quest west.

There's no doubt that Dany means well. The question is whether she's a "good guy" in Martin's universe. As a prominent PoV character, readers are tempted to view Dany as she views herself; greyhammer's point is that, objectively speaking, her naivete leads to incredible amounts of avoidable suffering and death. If GRRM weren't forcing us to spend so much time in Dany's head, she'd likely have far fewer fans.

 

[GATTACA!]

Admit it dude, you just have a very real thing for young bleach blonde girls with no curves...

Eh I was lukewarm on the character before the HBO series ever started, didn't love her but also didn't hate her like many. Casting Emilia Clarke as any character never hurts though.

Also plenty of curves for me

 

[GATTACA!]

There's no doubt that Dany means well. The question is whether she's a "good guy" in Martin's universe. As a prominent PoV character, readers are tempted to view Dany as she views herself; greyhammer's point is that, objectively speaking, her naivete leads to incredible amounts of avoidable suffering and death. If GRRM weren't forcing us to spend so much time in Dany's head, she'd likely have far fewer fans.

Yeah I get his point, I guess I'm just arguing that her intentions matter more than the net result of her actions. I know it's sort of an absurd comparison, but you would never hear people be like oh that Abraham Lincoln was such a war monger. So many people lost their lives, he should have just left the south alone. I mean I'm sure there are a few people that think that, but clearly Lincoln was on the right side of history regardless of the tremendous cost.

 

[ND NYC]

random question:

any chance the Nights King ends up being a "good guy" when all is said and done?

 

[woolybug25]

random question:

any chance the Nights King ends up being a "good guy" when all is said and done?

I would bet every vbuck I have that this is not the case.

 

[greyhammer90]

Sorry I'm not sure are you a book reader?

I am. As Whiskey alluded to, I think Dany is unreliable narrator of her own actions in the extreme. I feel bad for her because she might not have been a psychotic queen if she hadn't had a fucked up childhood, but bottom line, anyone who is "rooting" for her is crazy IMO. At this point I'm rooting for her to die a quick or somehow lose her power and live somewhere in peace. For the good of the realm.