COVID-19

[tussin]

Masks and their use in preventing the spread of public diseases have been in use around the world for a century...lol

OK -- I sent articles from late-March with recommendations from the WHO and CDC to not wear masks in public unless you are sick.

So I guess you are, in fact, choosing to be disingenuous. No point in engaging any more.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

OK -- I sent articles from late-March with recommendations from the WHO and CDC to not wear masks in public unless you are sick.

So I guess you are, in fact, choosing to be disingenuous. No point in engaging any more.

Well, I dont want to come off as disingenuous so I am attaching the link to the WHO guidance on masks for every document sent out since the pandemic was being tracked by them. I think if you want to be genuine, can go and see that their stance and guidance changed over time to adapt to the growing crisis. In this review of their documents (not just for March 2020), you will see what they define a mask as, what materials those masks are made of and their efficacy as well as who, what, where, when and why to wear one.

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks

 

[Legacy]

I agree with everything you just posted. But the point of the articles that I sent was that mask wearing was NOT a medical consensus only a few short months ago. In fact, many experts were specifically saying not to wear a mask. To critique US mask policy when COVID was emerging is disingenuous.

With the 1918 pandemic, the U.S. was shut down completely, mask wearing was considered the best way to eliminate spread with other mitigation measures - quarantines, no public gatherings, etc. Cities that opened up too quickly had to shut their economies down again. Cities had Public Health departments partially due to the regular occurences of outbreaks and could issue orders.

We are now in the pre-1918 era.

Texas exceeded 10,000 nursing hojme deaths a few days ago.

 

[Rogue219]

March Madness canceled

Nine months from now.... for fuck's sake

How we looking here?

 

[zelezo vlk]

Hundreds of thousands of people are dead and the football season is likely to be canceled, but COVID did get Koon permabanned from this site. So who's to say that 2020 has been bad?

 

[tussin]

Well, I dont want to come off as disingenuous so I am attaching the link to the WHO guidance on masks for every document sent out since the pandemic was being tracked by them. I think if you want to be genuine, can go and see that their stance and guidance changed over time to adapt to the growing crisis. In this review of their documents (not just for March 2020), you will see what they define a mask as, what materials those masks are made of and their efficacy as well as who, what, where, when and why to wear one.

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks

Fantastic. And if you were being intellectually honest in prior posts, you would not be highlighting early policy on mask wearing as an aspect of US response failure to COVID when the World Health Organization guidance was to not wear a mask. At that point, there was not medical consensus.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Hundreds of thousands of people are dead and the football season is likely to be canceled, but COVID did get Koon permabanned from this site. So who's to say that 2020 has been bad?

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Fantastic. And if you were being intellectually honest in prior posts, you would not be highlighting early policy on mask wearing as an aspect of US response failure to COVID when the World Health Organization guidance at that point was to not wear a mask. At that point, there was not medical consensus.

I dont want there to be a misunderstanding and I certainly dont want o be pedantic but I am not sure why you think my post was specific to the beginning of the outbreak. I dont see that in the post I wrote. My post never specifically said anything about a time frame and if I am certain of anything the response is still on-going and wearing masks was certainly not the only thing that could have been done to lessen the outbreak, which I also never stated or intended.

My larger point was that through this entire ordeal, the ADMINs response to wearing a mask has not really changed much (dont wear one dont need one) but has created confusion. A mask boom happened in Feb. The SG tweeted out to stop buying masks in Late Feb. Then the CDC went on record for masks in late March/ early April. The SG then endorsed masks. Trump made the CDC reversal announcement himself then said he woulndt be wearing one at the same exact time. Since April, the ADMIN has time and again eschewed any advice on masks and created confusion/distrust. In June the SG said this. All the while attacking Dr. Faucci, and stripping the CDC of its reporting authority, bleech and sunlight...and otherwise tweeting out ridiculous misinformation.

The point is the scientific CONSENSUS since early April/late March is unequivocally that masks are a tool and can help prevent the spread for sick and non-sick individuals who have to inhabit public spaces and Americans began buying masks as early as late January.

 

[Bluto]

Is there any analysis out there on a decentralized approach to the virus vs a centralized/Feds leading the charge?

Would be interesting to see what the data says.

I would recommend reading up on the Incident Command System. Had to take wild land fire fighter training recently for work and that was a big part of it.

Edit: Just scrolled back and saw Oahu mentioned NIMS.

 

[Irishize]

Stopped keeping tabs because he had to get started on his book.

What a piece of shit. The country is in a pandemic & he’s writing a book.

 

[SonofOahu]

I agree with everything you just posted. But the point of the articles that I sent was that mask wearing was NOT a medical consensus only a few short months ago. In fact, many experts were specifically saying not to wear a mask. To critique US mask policy when COVID was emerging is disingenuous.

The messaging to the public was messy, there's no denying that. Make no mistake, the US medical community knew since February that CoV was airborne/droplet. We had physicians take part in the Diamond Princess response, and they were reporting back the hybrid airborne/droplet precautions.

I've said it a few times: the reason why the general public was told not to grab medical-type PPE was to mitigate panic-buying and shortages. It didn't work, of course, but that was when people started making cloth masks.

 

[Ndaccountant]

You can say similar things about taking Lombardy's deaths out of Italy's, etc. The United States' comically incongruent response state-to-state has both prolonged the pandemic and will ultimately lead to high deaths per capita. For example, Italy has had less than a hundred deaths per day since May and a controlled new case load since June. This is after a regional outbreak worse than New York. Why? Because of a coordinated national plan. In the United States, we saw initial stabilization give way to flare up and new peaks in multiple locations due to a lack of coherent and consistent restrictions. While peer countries were controlling the virus in June, we saw increasing case numbers into August and the *best case* scenario has the United States 4 months behind European countries on control//return to normal.

No one in the United States federal government even tried to put in restrictions like you saw in Europe to address their initial outbreaks that were worse than New York. Instead, they deferred to states and actively championed those that weren't putting in restrictions (like Florida) while denigrating those that were (like California). Because of that, I certainly wouldn't categorize the response in the United States as "pretty good." It's going to end up with substantially more deaths per capita than Sweden who just kept everything open in a controlled fashion.

Just one point on this, as I think this is really important.

The US was doomed to start. For the past 20 years really, we have had significant political discourse. "Not my president" has been the rallying call of both political parties and it's become a sport to try and "one up" each other.

Trump has not helped himself and I do personally believe there could have been a better path taken over the last 8 months. But the US is simply not equipped or prepared to have a country wide shutdown. Whether it was Trump or Obama, half the country would be defiant and try to submarine the whole thing just because the order was coming from "the other team".

We really need to change as a country. It's not healthy. Living in a different part of the world has highlighted to me how diversity of thought is respected, not chided and weaponized. There is discourse, but unity, because in the end, the all want the same thing...a better life forward.

Sorry to everyone for the rant.

 

[TorontoGold]

Just one point on this, as I think this is really important.

The US was doomed to start. For the past 20 years really, we have had significant political discourse. "Not my president" has been the rallying call of both political parties and it's become a sport to try and "one up" each other.

Trump has not helped himself and I do personally believe there could have been a better path taken over the last 8 months. But the US is simply not equipped or prepared to have a country wide shutdown. Whether it was Trump or Obama, half the country would be defiant and try to submarine the whole thing just because the order was coming from "the other team".

We really need to change as a country. It's not healthy. Living in a different part of the world has highlighted to me how diversity of thought is respected, not chided and weaponized. There is discourse, but unity, because in the end, the all want the same thing...a better life forward.

Sorry to everyone for the rant.

Just want to follow up on one point - what actions did people on the Left do to submarine the direction given by Trump? As far as I know it seems like the most aggressive steps to combat the virus have been taken in the Dem states. If anything, the states that defied the task forces recommendations would be the ones submarining Trump's direction.

 

[notredomer23]

Say what you want about Florida’s response or lack of to the virus, but they’ve really crushed the curve. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/

To me, really supports the Sweden response as the right way to dealing with the virus. Controlled spread, secure the elderly, limit indoor gatherings. The bars shut down on June 26th. July 12th they peaked with 15K cases and had a 7 day average around 12K cases. Now, the 7 day average is 4500.

 

[Rogue219]

Any shot of this disappearing by Labor Day weekend? I took the Friday before off. I'm overstocked on toilet paper and bleach, so wanted to have some kind of themed gathering with more than ten people.

 

[Rogue219]

I've said it a few times: the reason why the general public was told not to grab medical-type PPE was to mitigate panic-buying and shortages. It didn't work, of course, but that was when people started making cloth masks.

Correct. So we went for toilet paper and pasta instead.

April 2020 was quite a time to be alive. I'll remember it always.

 

[Sea Turtle]

Just want to follow up on one point - what actions did people on the Left do to submarine the direction given by Trump? As far as I know it seems like the most aggressive steps to combat the virus have been taken in the Dem states. If anything, the states that defied the task forces recommendations would be the ones submarining Trump's direction.

4 years of crying wolf to get rid of Trump anyway possible.
So when a genuine threat emerges that derails the country and it's success under Trump, half of the country doesn't believe it

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

I remember when 2 people died from Ebola and conservatives thought Obama should be removed from office. Now 200k dead is success. I’m not sure our country can come back from this level of cognitive dissonance and revisionist history.

 

[Irishize]

I dont want there to be a misunderstanding and I certainly dont want o be pedantic but I am not sure why you think my post was specific to the beginning of the outbreak. I dont see that in the post I wrote. My post never specifically said anything about a time frame and if I am certain of anything the response is still on-going and wearing masks was certainly not the only thing that could have been done to lessen the outbreak, which I also never stated or intended.

My larger point was that through this entire ordeal, the ADMINs response to wearing a mask has not really changed much (dont wear one dont need one) but has created confusion. A mask boom happened in Feb. The SG tweeted out to stop buying masks in Late Feb. Then the CDC went on record for masks in late March/ early April. The SG then endorsed masks. Trump made the CDC reversal announcement himself then said he woulndt be wearing one at the same exact time. Since April, the ADMIN has time and again eschewed any advice on masks and created confusion/distrust. In June the SG said this. All the while attacking Dr. Faucci, and stripping the CDC of its reporting authority, bleech and sunlight...and otherwise tweeting out ridiculous misinformation.

The point is the scientific CONSENSUS since early April/late March is unequivocally that masks are a tool and can help prevent the spread for sick and non-sick individuals who have to inhabit public spaces and Americans began buying masks as early as late January.

If I may...from what I can gather, Tussin isn’t asking you any of that. He’s simply pointing out there was an inconsistent messaging from the CDC, Fauci & other medical experts from the beginning in regards to masks. You seem to keep wanting to bring your disdain for Trump into this which is fine but doesn’t address Tussin’s question.

Look at Oahu’s post, he said as much, too. They reportedly intentionally misled the public about masks to avoid a run on PPE that may leave the HCPs in the lurch w/ a shortage. It was wrong & it blew up in their face b/c now the Gov’t (as a whole) credibility has sunk even lower.

The CDC & Fauci would have been wiser to acknowledge that masks work from Day 1 but that they need to be rationed for HCPs on the front lines first & foremost until the nation’s stock can be increased to the levels needed. I recall Americans were pretty quick to shame folks buying up toilet paper & hand sanitizer for profit. They would’ve done the same if folks were caught doing that w/ masks. Plus, according to most “no one wears a mask anyway” so why lie to them in the first place?

It’s Monday Morning QB so I’m not saying the CDC & Fauci are infallilble & may have done it differently if given the chance, but lying to the American public & then justifying it is a slippery slope if Gov’t expects to maintain any semblance credibility w/ American taxpayers.

Sorry Tussin, if I took your posts out of context, but it seemed like he was talking around you instead of to you...Feel free to correct me.

 

[Luckylucci]

Say what you want about Florida’s response or lack of to the virus, but they’ve really crushed the curve. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/

To me, really supports the Sweden response as the right way to dealing with the virus. Controlled spread, secure the elderly, limit indoor gatherings. The bars shut down on June 26th. July 12th they peaked with 15K cases and had a 7 day average around 12K cases. Now, the 7 day average is 4500.

Sweden is a fascinating case. I'm remember reading at the time and most thinking, this will not go well. And, for awhile it didn't. But it seems to have worked out fairly well. A funny personal story. The other day, a family member of mine while sitting around the table complaining about Trump said, "look at how well Sweden is doing, that should be us." To which I replied, "If we took the same approach, people would've lost their damn minds." And she didn't get it, lol.

Classic case of someone only looking at results elsewhere and cherry picking the information of we should've done this and should've done that. When the only thing that seemed likely to work, at the time, was mass lockdowns for extended periods of time.

I honestly believe that various groups would be mad regardless of what Trump did. If he came out in March and locked down the entire country, restricted international travel, interstate travel, put out a national mask mandate, etc. Then we'd be hearing the "he's a dictator" rhetoric or he's abusing his power.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

If I may...from what I can gather, Tussin isn’t asking you any of that. He’s simply pointing out there was an inconsistent messaging from the CDC, Fauci & other medical experts from the beginning in regards to masks. You seem to keep wanting to bring your disdain for Trump into this which is fine but doesn’t address Tussin’s question.

Look at Oahu’s post, he said as much, too. They reportedly intentionally misled the public about masks to avoid a run on PPE that may leave the HCPs in the lurch w/ a shortage. It was wrong & it blew up in their face b/c now the Gov’t (as a whole) credibility has sunk even lower.

The CDC & Fauci would have been wiser to acknowledge that masks work from Day 1 but that they need to be rationed for HCPs on the front lines first & foremost until the nation’s stock can be increased to the levels needed. I recall Americans were pretty quick to shame folks buying up toilet paper & hand sanitizer for profit. They would’ve done the same if folks were caught doing that w/ masks. Plus, according to most “no one wears a mask anyway” so why lie to them in the first place?

It’s Monday Morning QB so I’m not saying the CDC & Fauci are infallilble & may have done it differently if given the chance, but lying to the American public & then justifying it is a slippery slope if Gov’t expects to maintain any semblance credibility w/ American taxpayers.

Sorry Tussin, if I took your posts out of context, but it seemed like he was talking around you instead of to you...Feel free to correct me.

Respectfully, I would have disdain for any President that allowed 170k of our citizens to perish due to inaction, incompetence, and willfully disregard for scientific data.

The problem here is that my initial post had no time frame. I made no allusion to any specific time frame and if you look at the examples I provided they are examples through this year of the admins incoherence and belligerence towards helping our citizens fight the pandemic. So no it’s not my inherent dislike of Trump. I would have the same feelings if it was HRC or Joe Biden or Obama.

I believe that Tussin may have thought I intended that but I didn’t and I explained that (if not clumsily). As I said earlier the response didn’t start or stop in March. It’s currently ongoing. I agree that masks were not called for initially due to data for this disease but masks have been used to protect people from many airborne diseases for a long time so it’s not like this idea just became valid in March.

As far as your assessment that Fauci and the CDC lied. I don’t think they lied and I think they didn’t intentionally misled either. They didn’t have any data to support that masks worked for this disease. They knew they would need the surgical masks for frontline medics because it’s standard operating procedure to use these to protect the docs and nurses as genera practice. I accept that.

Now that data has been obtained and its conclusive masks do work. If you look at the links I posted the WHO and CDC are saying the same thing and Tussin was right that in March both said masks were not necessary. In April with data that opinion changed and they issued those directives. Fauci didn’t lie. He didnt have data to say one way or the other. When he did have day at he gave his opinion to wear masks as a general precaution. The SG and Trump did what they did after. Since April the coherence of recommendations and strategy has been at best awfully inconsistent and sometimes downright ridiculous (bleach and sunshine).

 

[TorontoGold]

4 years of crying wolf to get rid of Trump anyway possible.
So when a genuine threat emerges that derails the country and it's success under Trump, half of the country doesn't believe it

Yes, that's the justification. So, the Dems saying Trump is bad guy lead to the other half not believing science? You're really not giving yourself any credit here hoss.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Sweden is a fascinating case. I'm remember reading at the time and most thinking, this will not go well. And, for awhile it didn't. But it seems to have worked out fairly well. A funny personal story. The other day, a family member of mine while sitting around the table complaining about Trump said, "look at how well Sweden is doing, that should be us." To which I replied, "If we took the same approach, people would've lost their damn minds." And she didn't get it, lol.

Classic case of someone only looking at results elsewhere and cherry picking the information of we should've done this and should've done that. When the only thing that seemed likely to work, at the time, was mass lockdowns for extended periods of time.

I honestly believe that various groups would be mad regardless of what Trump did. If he came out in March and locked down the entire country, restricted international travel, interstate travel, put out a national mask mandate, etc. Then we'd be hearing the "he's a dictator" rhetoric or he's abusing his power.

If this had happened all Americans would be like

😂

 

[Sea Turtle]

Yes, that's the justification. So, the Dems saying Trump is bad guy lead to the other half not believing science? You're really not giving yourself any credit here hoss.

No it's not just Dems saying he's a bad guy. It's literally trying to remove him from office by the Dems and the media in one form or another since election night.

And the science was wrong at times, conflicted with other science at times and lied to conserve PPE.

So when you have a country that is the size of all of Europe(which is really what we should be comparing ourselves to instead of countrys thats the size of Ohio ) with 50 different states that all operate differently to a degree.
A country that prides itself in personal freedom, work ethic and blue collar toughness: it's only natural that over half the country is going to have the mindset of 'this virus can kill the elderly, so let's keep the elderly at home and let us live our lives so we can get shit done'. It's also natural for much of the country to be skeptical of the Dems and the media after their efforts since election night.

That may sound foreign to you, and as Americans, we get that. But our way of life and attitudes are some of the reasons that we have ruled the world for going on a century now, while your country is considered by the rest of the world as our 'hat'.

 

[GowerND11]

Sweden is a fascinating case. I'm remember reading at the time and most thinking, this will not go well. And, for awhile it didn't. But it seems to have worked out fairly well. A funny personal story. The other day, a family member of mine while sitting around the table complaining about Trump said, "look at how well Sweden is doing, that should be us." To which I replied, "If we took the same approach, people would've lost their damn minds." And she didn't get it, lol.

Classic case of someone only looking at results elsewhere and cherry picking the information of we should've done this and should've done that. When the only thing that seemed likely to work, at the time, was mass lockdowns for extended periods of time.

I honestly believe that various groups would be mad regardless of what Trump did. If he came out in March and locked down the entire country, restricted international travel, interstate travel, put out a national mask mandate, etc. Then we'd be hearing the "he's a dictator" rhetoric or he's abusing his power.

You should see the things people say about Gov. Wolf and Dr. Levine here in PA for what they did with locking down the state, mask mandates, etc. Honestly, a lot of it is pretty repulsive.

 

[IrishLax]

No it's not just Dems saying he's a bad guy. It's literally trying to remove him from office by the Dems and the media in one form or another since election night.

And the science was wrong at times, conflicted with other science at times and lied to conserve PPE.

So when you have a country that is the size of all of Europe(which is really what we should be comparing ourselves to instead of countrys thats the size of Ohio ) with 50 different states that all operate differently to a degree.

Interesting considering that the Europe, as a whole, despite being more densely populated than the United States; having less time to prepare for the pandemic and worse initial outbreaks; not having a central government with near the authority of the United States...

1) Controlled the virus months earlier, returning to "normal" social and economic function more quickly.
2) Less than half the deaths per capita.

So comparing to that, you agree that the United States has done a poor job relative to peer nations. Good to know.

 

[tussin]

Interesting considering that the Europe, as a whole, despite being more densely populated than the United States; having less time to prepare for the pandemic and worse initial outbreaks; not having a central government with near the authority of the United States...

1) Controlled the virus months earlier, returning to "normal" social and economic function more quickly.
2) Less than half the deaths per capita.

So comparing to that, you agree that the United States has done a poor job relative to peer nations. Good to know.

I’ll be curious to see if Europe has breakouts as countries completely open up. Can’t say I know the intricacies of each country’s approach, but it’s probably best to hold off on conclusions until this thing is entirely in the past.

 

[Legacy]

We had a discussion previously that the Congress under GWB passed a Pandemic response bill in 2005, established roles for all executive branch departments, allocated billions to the states to develop theirs in recognition of the human and economic costs such a pandemic would cause. The DoD established their detailed responses. Each state had to set up theirs. The GAO reviewed the executive branch responses to the 2009 pandemic with detailed ways to improve it. The authority within the Executive branch fell to DHS and HHS. States expectations of federal roles were also detailed. Early detection, early recognition, early testing and containment with isolating threats and with a unified messaging.

 

[Sea Turtle]

Interesting considering that the Europe, as a whole, despite being more densely populated than the United States; having less time to prepare for the pandemic and worse initial outbreaks; not having a central government with near the authority of the United States...

1) Controlled the virus months earlier, returning to "normal" social and economic function more quickly.
2) Less than half the deaths per capita.

So comparing to that, you agree that the United States has done a poor job relative to peer nations. Good to know.

Doesn't Europe have 220,000 deaths?

Didn't they stop testing asymptomatic people?

And the very point of my post was that the very fiber of our being as a country makes it almost impossible to do a very good job in containing pandemic outbreaks. Our mentality is great 99% of the time in life circumstances. Not so good in a world pandemic that happens about once a quarter century.

 

[Legacy]

INFLUENZA PANDEMIC
Gaps in Pandemic Planning
and Preparedness Need to
Be Addressed (GAO 2009)

This statement covers six thematic
areas: (1) leadership, authority, and
coordination; (2) detecting threats
and managing risks; (3) planning,
training, and exercising; (4)
capacity to respond and recover;
(5) information sharing and
communication; and (6)
performance and accountability.

What GAO Recommends
This statement discusses the status
of GAO’s prior recommendations
on the nation’s planning and
preparedness for a pandemic. Key
open recommendations concern
the need to exercise the shared
federal leadership roles for a
pandemic, address planning gaps at
all levels of government and in the
private sector, and monitor and
report on agencies’ plans to protect
their workers.

The Pandemic response bill was developed after years of testimony about the impacts of a pandemic and passed by a bipartisan majority overwhelmingly.

Pandemic preparedness renewal sent to Trump's desk (Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy, 2019)