Game of Thrones

[greyhammer90]

D&D don't have the luxury of thousands of pages to give every character their proper sendoff, they need to start killing off people to progress the story to its endgame.

They had seven seasons. They knew this up front. It's not like they just got a memo from HBO saying wrap it up.

This is the same show that introduced every character, backstory, and house in season one AND still had time to have a shocking death that was realistic and had the appropriate fallout. Maybe instead of wasting screen time having Dany do nothing in the desert for three seasons they could've spent half an episode worth of time explaining how murdering a Lord, his legal heir, and his Lady wouldn't end in a swift execution.

It's lazy is what it is.

 

[greyhammer90]

And Jon Snow is going to leave the watch now that his "watch has ended" by dying. That's my guess at least.

What I hope happens: Jon gets up, walks past everyone to the dungeon without a word, kills Ollie, lays back down dead again.

 

[wizards8507]

I thought it was pretty clear the Karstark guy was in on the plan to kill Roose. I think what alot of people have touched on is accurate. While it was kind of an anticlimactic death for Roose it must mean ultimately he isn't vital to the plot going forward. D&D don't have the luxury of thousands of pages to give every character their proper sendoff, they need to start killing off people to progress the story to its endgame.

Which is the biggest problem I have with the show as a potential source of spoilers for the book. If we're still operating under the assumption that the book and the show have the same broad-strokes endgame, these lazy killings make it clear to us book readers that such-and-such a character won't be part of that endgame.

Example: Why did any of the Dorne arc need to be included in the show based on all the characters that are now dead? They wasted all that screen time for the sake of some poorly written jokes, some naked sand snakes, and a "viral" moment when Gregor crushed Oberyn's skull in.

 

[gkIrish]

Which is the biggest problem I have with the show as a potential source of spoilers for the book. If we're still operating under the assumption that the book and the show have the same broad-strokes endgame, these lazy killings make it clear to us book readers that such-and-such a character won't be part of that endgame.

Example: Why did any of the Dorne arc need to be included in the show based on all the characters that are now dead? They wasted all that screen time for the sake of some poorly written jokes, some naked sand snakes, and a "viral" moment when Gregor crushed Oberyn's skull in.

To be fair no one is forcing us book readers to watch the show. Sure, we do it because we think GRRM might die before finishing the books and because we might be spoiled anyway, but it's completely our choice to watch.

 

[wizards8507]

To be fair no one is forcing us book readers to watch the show. Sure, we do it because we think GRRM might die before finishing the books and because we might be spoiled anyway, but it's completely our choice to watch.

Of course. When I say "my problem with..." it's not in the context of "how dare they!?" They're obviously well within their creative rights and it's my choice to watch or not. Just sucks.

 

[IrishLion]

Why did any of the Dorne arc need to be included in the show based on all the characters that are now dead?

Because it's a TV show that needs to provide entertainment, and was needed to move the plot forward, based on the source material. If Dorne is in the books, why would it not be in the show?

Dorne was a new angle for the show, and provided a new angle on the events that are happening. Though the characters were awful and it has ultimately resulted in Dorne being booted off the end-game island, it was still a necessity to move the plot forward.

It provided momentary intrigue, wondering how Dorne would factor in. It also provided us with Robert Strong, via perhaps one of the best scenes of the show (hopefully ToJ takes that title). It has also resulted in chaos/betrayal/death/reconciliation among all of the Lannisters.

Though the Sandsnakes are awful and the storyline appears to be done with, it was still needed, in both the show and the books.

I wouldn't consider that a waste.

 

[IrishLax]

To be fair no one is forcing us book readers to watch the show. Sure, we do it because we think GRRM might die before finishing the books and because we might be spoiled anyway, but it's completely our choice to watch.

This is where I'm at. I understood critique of the show when there was still ample source material, but now that GRRM has let down everybody the show's got to to what the show's got to do.

If the show and books ultimately end up having different endings it won't bother me one bit, btw.

 

[IrishLax]

What I hope happens: Jon gets up, walks past everyone to the dungeon without a word, sends Ollie to Ramsay Bolton with a note saying he's a long lost Bolton heir, lays back down dead again.

fixt

Also, an underrated part of the episode was Ollie rushing forward like the emo little twat he is and the Wildlings just being like "lol ok dude"... I'm not saying I hope he gets Shireened to the Lord of Light, but I sure as hell wouldn't mind watching his bitch ass burn.

 

[pkt77242]

I thought that last night's episode was very good besides the Walda and baby getting eaten by the dogs. That was really hard to watch.

 

[gkIrish]

This is where I'm at. I understood critique of the show when there was still ample source material, but now that GRRM has let down everybody the show's got to to what the show's got to do.

If the show and books ultimately end up having different endings it won't bother me one bit, btw.

I actually almost hope they do.

 

[gkIrish]

I thought that last night's episode was very good besides the Walda and baby getting eaten by the dogs. That was really hard to watch.

I've seen a few people complain about this. I feel it was completely reasonable given what we know about Ramsay's sadistic tendencies. It's not like they actually showed it happening.

 

[wizards8507]

Because it's a TV show that needs to provide entertainment, and was needed to move the plot forward, based on the source material. If Dorne is in the books, why would it not be in the show?

Dorne was a new angle for the show, and provided a new angle on the events that are happening. Though the characters were awful and it has ultimately resulted in Dorne being booted off the end-game island, it was still a necessity to move the plot forward.

It provided momentary intrigue, wondering how Dorne would factor in. It also provided us with Robert Strong, via perhaps one of the best scenes of the show (hopefully ToJ takes that title). It has also resulted in chaos/betrayal/death/reconciliation among all of the Lannisters.

Though the Sandsnakes are awful and the storyline appears to be done with, it was still needed, in both the show and the books.

I wouldn't consider that a waste.

I get it. Like I said, I just wish we had the next book or that GRRM had never made that statement that the endgames would be the same. It just sucks that none of us will be able to go into TWOW unsullied. Our first read will be filled with moments like "oh yeah, Roose is still alive" and "wait... what's Littlefinger's plan with Harrold Hardying?"

Separately, I don't think the Mountain and the Viper is the best scene to-date. That would be Hardhome, aka "come at me, Snow."

 

[pkt77242]

I've seen a few people complain about this. I feel it was completely reasonable given what we know about Ramsay's sadistic tendencies. It's not like they actually showed it happening.

I agree that it is completely reasonable give Ramsay, but I would prefer if they had just left it at him opening the doors to the kennels and not the sounds of them being ripped apart. We would know what was happening without hearing it. I have to admit that I got up and poured myself a beer during that scene.

 

[IrishLion]

I get it. Like I said, I just wish we had the next book or that GRRM had never made that statement that the endgames would be the same. It just sucks that none of us will be able to go into TWOW unsullied. Our first read will be filled with moments like "oh yeah, Roose is still alive" and "wait... what's Littlefinger's plan with Harrold Hardying?"

Separately, I don't think the Mountain and the Viper is the best scene to-date. That would be Hardhome, aka "come at me, Snow."

I think it's top three. Hardhome is definitely in there. When the Night's King just raises his arms and shows off his powers? Oh lawd.

I liked the Mountain the Viper though because of how Oberyn gives the history while simultaneously executing a *nearly* flawless and calculated attack.

Idk what I would put at number three. I'd have to think hard and rewatch some things. Probably something involving Tyrion, though.

 

[woolybug25]

Which is the biggest problem I have with the show as a potential source of spoilers for the book. If we're still operating under the assumption that the book and the show have the same broad-strokes endgame, these lazy killings make it clear to us book readers that such-and-such a character won't be part of that endgame.

Example: Why did any of the Dorne arc need to be included in the show based on all the characters that are now dead? They wasted all that screen time for the sake of some poorly written jokes, some naked sand snakes, and a "viral" moment when Gregor crushed Oberyn's skull in.

What exactly is the difference? By time the book is out, you'll know the end game either way, no?

 

[gkIrish]

BTW, a very common theme for episodes most people seem to love is that there is little to no Daenarys. I.e. last night, Hardhome.

She sucks...

 

[pkt77242]

I think it's top three. Hardhome is definitely in there. When the Night's King just raises his arms and shows off his powers? Oh lawd.

I liked the Mountain the Viper though because of how Oberyn gives the history while simultaneously executing a *nearly* flawless and calculated attack.

Idk what I would put at number three. I'd have to think hard and rewatch some things. Probably something involving Tyrion, though.

Daenerys naked?

Kind of kidding.

 

[wizards8507]

What exactly is the difference? By time the book is out, you'll know the end game either way, no?

The joy of discovery? Learning things the way GRRM intended.

BTW, a very common theme for episodes most people seem to love is that there is little to no Daenarys. I.e. last night, Hardhome.

She sucks...

She's pretty popular among lady book readers. #Feminism and all that. Everyone wants her to be a dragonrider and some kind of savior queen but I'm hoping she goes full Mad King.

 

[woolybug25]

I've seen a few people complain about this. I feel it was completely reasonable given what we know about Ramsay's sadistic tendencies. It's not like they actually showed it happening.

I know, right? Like that was the line?

I guess showing rapes, cutting horses throats, incest and canabalism didn't quite get there...

 

[woolybug25]

The joy of discovery? Learning things the way GRRM intended.

Then literally anything they do in the show will ruin the books for you. They can't just stop the show. I'm not sure what you want them to do. Sounds like it's a "you problem". Don't watch the show if you don't want the final book spoiled. Ha

 

[IrishLion]

Daenerys naked?

Kind of kidding.

Or a compilation of any/all scenes where Melisandre lets the girls get some air?

 

[wizards8507]

Then literally anything they do in the show will ruin the books for you. They can't just stop the show. I'm not sure what you want them to do. Sounds like it's a "you problem". Don't watch the show if you don't want the final book spoiled. Ha

I made exactly that point several times. I don't blame them or say anything is there fault. But that doesn't make it suck less.

 

[IrishLion]

 

[IrishLion]

Is it confirmed that Victarion is not going to be in the show?

There is a spoiler-ish question I'm gonna put in the other thread.

 

[irishroo]

I've seen a few people complain about this. I feel it was completely reasonable given what we know about Ramsay's sadistic tendencies. It's not like they actually showed it happening.

This is true but I still don't get the purpose of the scene. Everybody who watches the show knows with 100% certainty that Ramsay is a torturous, sadistic psychopath. Him feeding an infant to a pack of rabid dogs does nothing to advance his character or give some insight into a side of Ramsay we haven't seen before - it's literally just there for shock value. In the same vein, that's really the issue I have with Ramsay as a whole - there is no "other side" of Ramsay. He's just pure, unabashed evil, almost to the point of being a caricature of a villain. The other primary villains thus far on the show - Tywin, Cersei, and Joffrey - all at least have some form of redeeming qualities or backgrounds to help soften them a bit. Tywin is a mean SOB but everything he does is for the good of his family, Cersei is also a miserable person but you can't deny her fierce loyalty to her children, and even Joffrey, despite being probably on an equal footing with Ramsay in terms of sadism/sociopathy, is an immature child thrown into a position of incredible power that he has no business holding. Ramsay, though, displays nothing like any of this. He is loyal to himself and himself only and will go to absolutely any means to get where he wants to go.

 

[IrishLion]

'Game of Thrones': Kit Harington breaks his silence | EW.com

 

[Whiskeyjack]

My thoughts have mostly already been voiced here.

• Thoroughly enjoyed the episode; seems like forever since the plot was advanced in such a significant way.
• Annoyed at Ramsay's plot armor, and that Roose was so easily chumped. Book Roose is a mastermind that wisely trusts Ramsay no farther than he could throw him; it will likely take a massive Northern Conspiracy to tear his house down. D&D aint got time for that shit, apparently.
• I streamed the episode on HBO Now, so I got the D&D commentary at the end instead of the episode 3 preview. They discussed how everyone thinks Mel failed in resurrecting Jon, and it made me wonder if she actually did anything. Fans have long speculated that as a warg, Jon might just bide his time in Ghost before coming to again. Since we didn't see anything resembling the Kiss of Life from Mel*, maybe there's some truth to it?

*We don't see much of Thoros resurrecting Beric, but what little we do see is very similar to what Mel did. RIP Kiss of Life.

 

[wizards8507]

My thoughts have mostly already been voiced here.

• Thoroughly enjoyed the episode; seems like forever since the plot was advanced in such a significant way.
• Annoyed at Ramsay's plot armor, and that Roose was so easily chumped. Book Roose is a mastermind that wisely trusts Ramsay no farther than he could throw him; it will likely take a massive Northern Conspiracy to tear his house down. D&D aint got time for that shit, apparently.
• I streamed the episode on HBO Now, so I got the D&D commentary at the end instead of the episode 3 preview. They discussed how everyone thinks Mel failed in resurrecting Jon, and it made me wonder if she actually did anything. Fans have long speculated that as a warg, Jon might just bide his time in Ghost before coming to again. Since we didn't see anything resembling the Kiss of Life from Mel*, maybe there's some truth to it?

*We don't see much of Thoros resurrecting Beric, but what little we do see is very similar to what Mel did. RIP Kiss of Life.

JS looks pretty panicked when he wakes up on the table. It doesn't look like the face of someone who was biding his time.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

JS looks pretty panicked when he wakes up on the table. It doesn't look like the face of someone who was biding his time.

Yeah, that theory died when I went back and watched how D&D portrayed Thoros resurrecting Beric-- lay on hands, praying (though in English), etc. Looks like Mel's "scary magic theme music" is a reliable indicator that something supernatural is going down.

 

[irishroo]

My thoughts have mostly already been voiced here.

• Thoroughly enjoyed the episode; seems like forever since the plot was advanced in such a significant way.
• Annoyed at Ramsay's plot armor, and that Roose was so easily chumped. Book Roose is a mastermind that wisely trusts Ramsay no farther than he could throw him; it will likely take a massive Northern Conspiracy to tear his house down. D&D aint got time for that shit, apparently.
• I streamed the episode on HBO Now, so I got the D&D commentary at the end instead of the episode 3 preview. They discussed how everyone thinks Mel failed in resurrecting Jon, and it made me wonder if she actually did anything. Fans have long speculated that as a warg, Jon might just bide his time in Ghost before coming to again. Since we didn't see anything resembling the Kiss of Life from Mel*, maybe there's some truth to it?

*We don't see much of Thoros resurrecting Beric, but what little we do see is very similar to what Mel did. RIP Kiss of Life.

I haven't read the books so I may be totally wrong here, but is it possible that Ramsay orchestrated this massive conspiracy and we just don't know about it yet in order to maintain the surprise of the Roose assassination? I believe Ramsay mentioned they would need the support of only 3 houses to maintain the North (Karstark, Manderly, and Umber I believe? Could be wrong there). The Karstarks are clearly in on the plan already, could it be that Ramsay has convinced the Manderlys and Umbers to support him as well?