College Basketball - FBI investigation

[irishtrain]

Most bagmen aren't associated with shoe companies, agents, etc. Quite the opposite. They are low key, don't want any attention drawn their way, and spend their time in the dark shadows. No publicity, no paper trails, no huge sums of money changing hands. In fact, most "transactions" are for small sums of money for obvious reasons. Furthermore, a lot of times cash isn't involved. It could be something as simple as mom getting a washer and dryer or the player getting a new video console. No paper, no cash, no proof.

This is the way I've heard its done-sounds like you know what you're talking about. I have heard that at certain schools the player actually has a sponsor family who has him over for dinner etc. College football has it down to a science---but maybe it will be cleaned up also. One thing for sure football needs a look. As so aptly put by IRONMIKE---they are in stealth mode and know the game inside out.

 

[NDgradstudent]

And you actually think UConn was a clean program under Calhoun? LOL

It wasn't, not unlike a certain ACC flagship program during the same period. But it wasn't ever under FBI investigation.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Many, many years ago an SEC President (I believe that he was from Georgia) was asked about a stink arising about conference football programs --- including "our" TTT's favorite semi-pro team. The stink was about the growing awareness that the schools were ignoring academics and anything else that might get in the way of recruiting and "product" on the field.

He was asked about what (Georgia) was going to do about several specific issues brought up. He said: Nothing. That would be like unilateral disarmament. .....That convinced me that EVERYBODY knew (generally) what was going on a very long time ago..... and there have been many years to "get it right" smoothing the pay-off and academics-avoiding systems into stealth mode.

Many years ago I would think that statement was very true. Just think about Dexter Manly. But I do think schools have taken a more proactive approach to improving the academics for their athletes. Some obviously much better than others.

As far as CBB... it was dirty when I was in school. Plenty of "extra" benefits being thrown around then. Since, it has become more obvious and every coach in America knows the game.

 

[NDohio]

On phone so I can't imbed this Tweet from Darren Heriberto:

Sources: Employees of Nike's EYBL grassroots division, along with documents, have been subpoenaed by FBI in furtherance of investigation

 

[Woneone]

The problem is the money around it and the imbalance it creates.

You have coaches, like Dixon at TCU, making millions of dollars at schools that has produced 4 NCAA tourney teams since the Beatles were formed. TV rights for the Men's BB tournament will payout over $1B annually to the NCAA in 2025. You have the Big Ten conference generating over $500m in annual revenue per year, which allows a school like Ohio State to generate over $170m in annual revenue. Texas A&M got nearly $200m for the last reported year.

Now go compare that to a school like East Carolina, not P5 but still a "major" player, generates less than 25% the revenue that A&M does, if they are lucky.

Now look at what UA, Nike, etc pay schools like ND, Michigan, etc to wear their products.

Billions of dollars are on the table, which provides a HUGE incentive for people to cheat, and there is little teeth to the enforcement organization. The only way to get a more even playing field, is to try and minimize the incentive.

Sure, there will always be greed and those who will want the "extra" amount, but pretending like this problem is not pervasive or that we can return to amateurism of the 1950's is laughable.

I had an old college professor say that a person is only as ethical as they are required to be. With college basketball, the answer is "Not Much". Removing amateurism doesn't clean up the cesspool, it just makes being a cesspool acceptable.

Your last paragraph suggests I'm asking for some sort of amateur utopia. As the saying goes (or something like it), don't let perfection stand in the way of progress. We won't go back to the 1950's, but that doesn't mean this type of enforcement isn't progress in cleaning it up.

Let's see how this plays out. My guess is, now that there IS a deterrent that's visible, this stuff may go down for a while. And if that's the case, then it shows that there is a cap on how much risk someone is willing to accept for all that "incentive" you mentioned. That incentive won't be minimized, it just won't be a check away.

 

[GowerND11]

This is the way I've heard its done-sounds like you know what you're talking about. I have heard that at certain schools the player actually has a sponsor family who has him over for dinner etc. College football has it down to a science---but maybe it will be cleaned up also. One thing for sure football needs a look. As so aptly put by IRONMIKE---they are in stealth mode and know the game inside out.

I created a thread about some of this 2 1/2 years ago:

http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/other-college-football/259008-recruiting-perspective.html

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

This is the way I've heard its done-sounds like you know what you're talking about. I have heard that at certain schools the player actually has a sponsor family who has him over for dinner etc. College football has it down to a science---but maybe it will be cleaned up also. One thing for sure football needs a look. As so aptly put by IRONMIKE---they are in stealth mode and know the game inside out.

At UK the basketball players are housed with the children of the donor class. Synergy.

 

[Irish#1]

Food for thought.............Will the IRS come after those parents who accepted payments? Hard to imagine they reported it as income.

 

[Meatloaf]

Most bagmen aren't associated with shoe companies, agents, etc. Quite the opposite. They are low key, don't want any attention drawn their way, and spend their time in the dark shadows. No publicity, no paper trails, no huge sums of money changing hands. In fact, most "transactions" are for small sums of money for obvious reasons. Furthermore, a lot of times cash isn't involved. It could be something as simple as mom getting a washer and dryer or the player getting a new video console. No paper, no cash, no proof.

TINSTAAFWDOVGC

 

[STLDomer]

Most bagmen aren't associated with shoe companies, agents, etc. Quite the opposite. They are low key, don't want any attention drawn their way, and spend their time in the dark shadows. No publicity, no paper trails, no huge sums of money changing hands. In fact, most "transactions" are for small sums of money for obvious reasons. Furthermore, a lot of times cash isn't involved. It could be something as simple as mom getting a washer and dryer or the player getting a new video console. No paper, no cash, no proof.

This. The line that needs to be draw with this recruiting scandal though involves if players should just be paid. Almost all schools have this. In a perfect world eliminate it all. More realistically, when does it become just a perk of being a student athlete at a athletic powerhouse vs when is it the reason he went to the school. Because boosters will never go away, anywhere (including ND *ducks*)

 

[BobbyMac]

Food for thought.............Will the IRS come after those parents who accepted payments? Hard to imagine they reported it as income.

They have no choice if it's a transaction over $10k. Plus sonny boy will be loaded as soon as the season ends and he hires an agent. The agent will give him his gap loan at that time till the team money starts rolling in.

 

[snoopdog]

The one and done is part of the problem and eliminating it will help the issue (not eliminate)

You got kids who don’t give fuck about the school they go to. If I have to sit through school for a year. Might as well get paid doing it and secure my NBA and sponsorship future.

Let kids risk their career at 18. Let them get paid in Europe. If that’s what they want to do.

I would argue one and done IS the problem.

Kids can go to the NBA right out of high school, just like Major League Baseball, or the NHL and if they go the Uni route....they have to stay three yrs....like in the NFL.

Also 100% against paying players in the NCAA............ While you could argue that 200 or so athletes should be earning money because they are driving revenue to the program, the over 450,000-500,000 other student athletes are simply expense loads to the university. For example....who pays money to go see Hunter Bivin play a few snaps for the Irish?

 

[GowerND11]

I would argue one and done IS the problem.

Kids can go to the NBA right out of high school, just like Major League Baseball, or the NHL and if they go the Uni route....they have to stay three yrs....like in the NFL.

Also 100% against paying players in the NCAA............ While you could argue that 200 or so athletes should be earning money because they are driving revenue to the program, the over 450,000-500,000 other student athletes are simply expense loads to the university. For example....who pays money to go see Hunter Bivin play a few snaps for the Irish?

What about the option of allowing amateur athletes the ability to sign deals independently? I'm not sold on that route, but it's an option to discuss.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

What about the option of allowing amateur athletes the ability to sign deals independently? I'm not sold on that route, but it's an option to discuss.

I think we are headed to a place where schools can't pay money (for some strict definition of "school" that excludes boosters) but anyone else is fair game.

 

[IrishLax]

What about the option of allowing amateur athletes the ability to sign deals independently? I'm not sold on that route, but it's an option to discuss.

Yup. The olympic model, which already works.

The truth is that amateurism is bullshit concept propagated by the "have nots" to make it harder for programs like Notre Dame, Ohio State, Texas, etc. to win with $$. Same thing with the artificial scholarship limits that have kept shrinking over the years despite $$ going up.

Amateurism is rooted in outdated concepts of competitive balance. There is no reason -- absolutely none -- that someone like Manti Te'o shouldn't have been able to sign endorsement deals during his time at Notre Dame.

 

[GowerND11]

Yup. The olympic model, which already works.

The truth is that amateurism is bullshit concept propagated by the "have nots" to make it harder for programs like Notre Dame, Ohio State, Texas, etc. to win with $$. Same thing with the artificial scholarship limits that have kept shrinking over the years despite $$ going up.

Amateurism is rooted in outdated concepts of competitive balance. There is no reason -- absolutely none -- that someone like Manti Te'o shouldn't have been able to sign endorsement deals during his time at Notre Dame.

The real question is, does doing this allow NCAA College Football to be made again? That's all anyone really wants!

 

[Ndaccountant]

I had an old college professor say that a person is only as ethical as they are required to be. With college basketball, the answer is "Not Much". Removing amateurism doesn't clean up the cesspool, it just makes being a cesspool acceptable.

Your last paragraph suggests I'm asking for some sort of amateur utopia. As the saying goes (or something like it), don't let perfection stand in the way of progress. We won't go back to the 1950's, but that doesn't mean this type of enforcement isn't progress in cleaning it up.

Let's see how this plays out. My guess is, now that there IS a deterrent that's visible, this stuff may go down for a while. And if that's the case, then it shows that there is a cap on how much risk someone is willing to accept for all that "incentive" you mentioned. That incentive won't be minimized, it just won't be a check away.

Do you find it ethical that Nick Saban can make over $11m this year while his players get an "education"?

Do you find it ethical that UA sells a replica 7 football jersey for hundreds, while someone like Wimbush doesn't get a dime of that?

And the enforcement you are talking about has to do with federal charges. It's a good thing, don't get me wrong, but as the saying goes, you're plugging one hole in a leaking damn. All this does is close one lane, but the highway is still open.

 

[snoopdog]

What about the option of allowing amateur athletes the ability to sign deals independently? I'm not sold on that route, but it's an option to discuss.

With shoe companies....sure why not

with universities, absolutely not.

 

[STLDomer]

What about the option of allowing amateur athletes the ability to sign deals independently? I'm not sold on that route, but it's an option to discuss.

Agree with its premise. Eliminate need for a university to be a middle man.

Worrisome implication made by some reporters: some of these schools implicated have expiring Nike contracts. If they had plans to move to Adidas? For some basketball recruits? Damn. Entire athletic departments would be taken down.

 

[snoopdog]

Do you find it ethical that Nick Saban can make over $11m this year while his players get an "education"?

Do you find it ethical that UA sells a replica 7 football jersey for hundreds, while someone like Wimbush doesn't get a dime of that?

And the enforcement you are talking about has to do with federal charges. It's a good thing, don't get me wrong, but as the saying goes, you're plugging one hole in a leaking damn. All this does is close one lane, but the highway is still open.

Yes I do think it is ethical.

Where it stops being ethical is when players are paid to go to a certain school!! if the student athlete signs an endorsement contract, it is portable. using your example Wimbush gets paid whether he is playing for Penn St or ND.

Plugging holes is what competitive environments require. You can't have a competitive environment without cheating. A cheat free competitive environment is a unicorn....it doesn't exist.

 

[Irish#1]

This. The line that needs to be draw with this recruiting scandal though involves if players should just be paid. Almost all schools have this. In a perfect world eliminate it all. More realistically, when does it become just a perk of being a student athlete at a athletic powerhouse vs when is it the reason he went to the school. Because boosters will never go away, anywhere (including ND *ducks*)

Paying athletes wouldn't stop this when you're comparing a couple hundred dollars a month to $100K.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Paying athletes wouldn't stop this when you're comparing a couple hundred dollars a month to $100K.

Exactly

 

[Ndaccountant]

Yes I do think it is ethical.

Where it stops being ethical is when players are paid to go to a certain school!! if the student athlete signs an endorsement contract, it is portable. using your example Wimbush gets paid whether he is playing for Penn St or ND.

Plugging holes is what competitive environments require. You can't have a competitive environment without cheating. A cheat free competitive environment is a unicorn....it doesn't exist.

Simply disagree about the ethics of coach salaries.

As far as the environment goes, agree on expecting cheat free. But if you don't commit a federal crime, there is nothing the Feds can do. Meanwhile, the NCAA is busy eating cheeseburgers.

 

[STLDomer]

Paying athletes wouldn't stop this when you're comparing a couple hundred dollars a month to $100K.

That’s the line I was referring to. A kid getting a discount on his car or a paid for dinner will always exist, is everywhere and probably can’t be eliminated. I don’t advocate for paying players just was throwing it out there as a theoretical combat to small “bagman” payments.

The big stuff needs to be cracked down on. Effecting a recruitment is where the big money is.

 

[MacIrish75]

Do you find it ethical that Nick Saban can make over $11m this year while his players get an "education"?

Do you find it ethical that UA sells a replica 7 football jersey for hundreds, while someone like Wimbush doesn't get a dime of that?

And the enforcement you are talking about has to do with federal charges. It's a good thing, don't get me wrong, but as the saying goes, you're plugging one hole in a leaking damn. All this does is close one lane, but the highway is still open.

Yes, but in college football, as opposed to pro football (especially at a place like ND where jersey nameplates aren't used) how do you know where to draw the line. The replica "7" jersey you reference currently belongs to Wimbush...however, should Carlyle Holliday get a cut? Stephon Tuitt? TJ Jones? Joe Theismann? Steve Beuerlein? Andre Jones? Darrin Bragg? And that's just for number 7.

Seems like a convoluted mess, to me.

 

[dad4aa]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Now official: Louisville has fired Rick Pitino as its basketball coach.</p>— Gary Parrish (@GaryParrishCBS) <a href="https://twitter.com/GaryParrishCBS/status/913068235112763392">September 27, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

nvm

 

[snoopdog]

Simply disagree about the ethics of coach salaries.

As far as the environment goes, agree on expecting cheat free. But if you don't commit a federal crime, there is nothing the Feds can do. Meanwhile, the NCAA is busy eating cheeseburgers.

In Alabama's case, Saban is making that program multi millions year after year.

Fire Saban and replace him with Charlie Weis and see how much money that costs the program.

The players come and go, it is the Coaches that are the constant, especially in the one and done world of the NCAA.

Coaches who are constants like Saban, Meyer, Paterno and even Bob Stoops earn every penny of their salary.

Now if the Alabama's women swim team coach was getting paid $11 million per....I would probably say..... WTF? But the payoff for the university from having a consistent top 5 Football program is huge....and it isn't the individual players who creates that, it is the Head Coach.

And if you think differently, then as Alabama's AD, you would fire Saban and his $11 million per and replace him with Autry Denson and pay him $110,000 per year. At which time you would be stoned to death by the tide faithful.

 

[connor_in]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">THANK YOU LOUISVILLE <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/L1C4?src=hash">#L1C4</a> <a href="https://t.co/UQSRWa7OHK">pic.twitter.com/UQSRWa7OHK</a></p>— Anfernee Simons (@AnferneeSimons) <a href="https://twitter.com/AnferneeSimons/status/913098180081995777">September 27, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

and so it begins...

 

[connor_in]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Louisville athletics in the last 24 hours. <a href="https://t.co/j9RgA0RkKw">pic.twitter.com/j9RgA0RkKw</a></p>— Thomas K (@tkhighcountry) <a href="https://twitter.com/tkhighcountry/status/913088855812771841">September 27, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[irishog77]

In Alabama's case, Saban is making that program multi millions year after year.

Fire Saban and replace him with Charlie Weis and see how much money that costs the program.

The players come and go, it is the Coaches that are the constant, especially in the one and done world of the NCAA.

Coaches who are constants like Saban, Meyer, Paterno and even Bob Stoops earn every penny of their salary.

Now if the Alabama's women swim team coach was getting paid $11 million per....I would probably say..... WTF? But the payoff for the university from having a consistent top 5 Football program is huge....and it isn't the individual players who creates that, it is the Head Coach.

And if you think differently, then as Alabama's AD, you would fire Saban and his $11 million per and replace him with Autry Denson and pay him $110,000 per year. At which time you would be stoned to death by the tide faithful.

Shades of Jerra replacing Jimmy Johnson with...Barry Switzer.