BVG Fired

philipm31

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Good enough for what? For your seriously over inflated, unrealistic expectations? Or good enough to be successful? Because Team 127 had a very successful regular season.


How are my expectation overinflated when everyone has said that this team had CFP written all over it before the season-and was clamoring for ND to be ranked #3 just 3 weeks ago so they would remain in the top 4? ND was 5 points away from an undefeated season. How does me claiming that ND needs a Top Ten defense not make sense?

I am not saying anything illogical here.

For ND to win every single game--which they need to do just to be considered for the CFP, as has been well-documented by the facts--then you need a defense that can be consistent and not be the cause of constant consternation.

If you looked at the list of the teams on there, not all of them were National Title winners, but all of them were able to lift the team up even higher.

Had this defensive philosophy been sounder, then we would have been able to be the only unbeaten in the land, instead of playing from behind against an inferior Clemson team. Yes, I do think that Clemson is inferior to ND, just like everyone else on here does, and just about everyone outside the state of SC.

And where was the great defense against the pass against a legitimately, how can I say this without being mean, "wildly inconsistent" QB and letting him lead his team down the field for a winning FG? Anyone who thinks that the Irish defense has not held ND back due to their total inability to produce turnovers and get stops in key situations must not be watching the same game.

The Irish teams that won consistently for a decade were not getting beaten deep 2-3x every game in the passing game, especially in the big games...or giving up 35 to 50-yard gallops with startling regularity.

The OFD breakdown of the stats show that the Irish defense was the one unit that consistently let the Irish down this year, so to think that ND does not need to be a more dominant defense, a legit top-tier unit, is just not reality.

They said defense wins championships for a reason, because it frakking does.
 
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philipm31

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5 of the top 8 teams didn't have a "Top Ten OVERALL" defense.

Your posts are getting progressively worse.

SMFH.

If ND had a Top Ten overall unit on defense, then they would BE undefeated and there would be no doubt about them as being the most complete team in the land.

It is not rocket science when 2 of the Top 4 teams in the country DO have legit Top Ten overall defenses (Clemson and Alabama), which if my math is right, is 50% of the group.

Maybe I am be a little overzealous here to want the defense to actually be dependable, but I doubt it. I just think that Top 25 isn't good enough, if you want an unbeaten season as an independent. The point here is that if ND wants to leave zero doubt that they are the best team in the land, then they need to have an elite defense, something that they could easily have if they were more opportunistic, as TTT said--and the 88 team prided themselves on being. Hell, it was in their handbook about how to play every single snap on both sides of the ball!!

Despite BVG's aggressive D, we are not forcing TOs, getting sacks, fumbles or INTs on a regular enough basis to say that this particular approach is working as is.

A tweak in philosophy is needed, one that emphasizes being opportunistic overly being overly aggressive.

I know that people assume that aggressive D causes chaos and will create opportunities, but only if you have the personnel to implement it.

ND's defenses under Holtz were pretty damn good at that, hence why ND was always able to compete in the big games.

SO, maybe Top Ten is too much to expect consistently, but if we are not at the very least more aware and opportunistic in our approach to defense, then we are never going to be able to get over the hump.

It seems like we have the kind of explosive offense that we have desired--except in the RZ--but if we want to take that next step, then we need a much improved defense.

I do not think that is asking too much, honestly.

Just take a page out of this, for crying out loud. It is literally out there for everyone to see the principles of the Irish's 88 team and its EMPHASIS on being opportunistic on defense and HOW to be aware for those opportunities.

http://www.footballxos.com/download/defense/college-defense/1988-Notre-Dame-Defense-Lou-Holtz-Barry-Alvarez.pdf
 
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philipm31

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BTW, Ohio State is #10 in overall defense, while fielding a team with the 41st-ranked offense in the country, which only averaged about 43ypg fewer than the Irish.

Even today, it is not hard to see how a Top Ten defense can help you overcome offensive deficiencies. Hell, you do not have to look that far back into ND history to see that, either (re: 2002).

To think ND cannot field that kind of defense is a form of defeatism that I abhor and will not kowtow to, ever.

If that makes my expectations, "overinflated", so be it.
 

T Town Tommy

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BTW, Ohio State is #10 in overall defense, while fielding a team with the 41st-ranked offense in the country, which only averaged about 43ypg fewer than the Irish.

Even today, it is not hard to see how a Top Ten defense can help you overcome offensive deficiencies. Hell, you do not have to look that far back into ND history to see that, either (re: 2002).

To think ND cannot field that kind of defense is a form of defeatism that I abhor and will not kowtow to, ever.

If that makes my expectations, "overinflated", so be it.

I don't think people out here are saying they wouldn't like a top 10 Irish defense. I think the main argument, at least in my case, is that the Irish do not have to have a top 10 overall defense to win a NC - especially given the offense can score in bunches. I think everyone agrees that they need to improve on that side of the ball next season, but the expectation of jumping into the top 10 overall may be a bit of a stretch, given who may leave early for the draft, graduation, etc.
 

Irish#1

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BTW, Ohio State is #10 in overall defense, while fielding a team with the 41st-ranked offense in the country, which only averaged about 43ypg fewer than the Irish.

Even today, it is not hard to see how a Top Ten defense can help you overcome offensive deficiencies. Hell, you do not have to look that far back into ND history to see that, either (re: 2002).

To think ND cannot field that kind of defense is a form of defeatism that I abhor and will not kowtow to, ever.

If that makes my expectations, "overinflated", so be it.

Keep in mind the offensive firepower of your opponents plays a hug piece in determining the ranking of your defense. The B1G is still a run first conference, which makes it easier to defend.

We don't need to be top 10 (although I would love it) to win an NC, but more to your point, the big plays we give up are due to our poor play in the secondary. BVG's defense is an attacking D which leaves DB's on their own too many times, thus the big plays. Lock down CB's allow you to bring an 8 man front or blitz. I think BVG's D and scheme aren't that bad. Just need to dial it back a little until we have corners that can cover without help.
 

kmoose

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How are my expectation overinflated when everyone has said that this team had CFP written all over it before the season-and was clamoring for ND to be ranked #3 just 3 weeks ago so they would remain in the top 4? ND was 5 points away from an undefeated season. How does me claiming that ND needs a Top Ten defense not make sense?

How does it not make sense? As has already been pointed out to you, ND most likely accomplishes everything you maintain it needed to, with just a Top 20-30 defense.

I am not saying anything illogical here.

Actually, you are. I don't know how many times it has to be pointed out to you......... Top 10 would be great, and it is a good goal to have, but it isn't NECESSARY, like you are claiming.

For ND to win every single game--which they need to do just to be considered for the CFP, as has been well-documented by the facts--then you need a defense that can be consistent and not be the cause of constant consternation.

What is a fact is that ND was ranked #4, and in the playoffs, going into the BC game, with a loss. So your contention that ND HAS TO be undefeated "just to be considered for the CFP" couldn't be any more wrong. But I don't expect you to take an objective look at the situation.

Had this defensive philosophy been sounder, then we would have been able to be the only unbeaten in the land, instead of playing from behind against an inferior Clemson team. Yes, I do think that Clemson is inferior to ND, just like everyone else on here does, and just about everyone outside the state of SC.

And where was the great defense against the pass against a legitimately, how can I say this without being mean, "wildly inconsistent" QB and letting him lead his team down the field for a winning FG? Anyone who thinks that the Irish defense has not held ND back due to their total inability to produce turnovers and get stops in key situations must not be watching the same game.

I don't have an answer to this. Because all it is an emotionally fueled, anger charged rant. In fact, this is the visual I got just from reading it:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/KNFXk0GFiHc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


The Irish teams that won consistently for a decade were not getting beaten deep 2-3x every game in the passing game, especially in the big games...or giving up 35 to 50-yard gallops with startling regularity.

The Irish teams that won consistently for a decade didn't face passing attacks like exist these days, either. In 1966, there were 0 3000 yard passers in the NCAA. In 1977, there was 1. In 1988, there were 6. In 1999, there were 16. This season, there are 27. So that comparison is worthless. How many 35-50 yard runs did this year's defense surrender? I bet not as many as you think you remember.

The OFD breakdown of the stats show that the Irish defense was the one unit that consistently let the Irish down this year, so to think that ND does not need to be a more dominant defense, a legit top-tier unit, is just not reality.

Of course the defense was the weakest unit of the team this year. No one has ever suggested otherwise. But we don't need a TOP TEN defense to get there.

They said defense wins championships for a reason, because it frakking does.
It does. But you don't have to have the best, or even a Top Ten defense. It just has to be solid, competent, and fundamentally sound.

Look, Kelly came to ND as an offensive guru. He has built the offense into something VERY strong. And the future looks great, too. So he's not just building around a core group of guys; he's stocking the cupboard at the same time. Now that he has the offense in shape, give him some time to work on the defense. I'm not saying that he will have it in the Top 10 in a year or two, but he can win a championship without it.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Keep in mind the offensive firepower of your opponents plays a hug piece in determining the ranking of your defense. The B1G is still a run first conference, which makes it easier to defend.

We don't need to be top 10 (although I would love it) to win an NC, but more to your point, the big plays we give up are due to our poor play in the secondary. BVG's defense is an attacking D which leaves DB's on their own too many times, thus the big plays. Lock down CB's allow you to bring an 8 man front or blitz. I think BVG's D and scheme aren't that bad. Just need to dial it back a little until we have corners that can cover without help.

Now we're cooking on the front burner!

When talking about team improvement, from year to year, particularly, I don't see how you can talk about percentile ratings. Not that you can't get an idea across, but isn't that a bit like using a paint by number kit, and trying to produce a Renoir? (You know the canvas that comes with the puzzle-piece like diagrams with little numbers in them to tell you what bottle of paint to apply? )

I mean this is where Johnny says something like, "In the latest news, water is wet!"

The point is, any team that has a top ten defense, acquiescing to the nomenclature used in this thread, that doesn't adapt their offense, and special teams to that unit needs to replace their coaching staff, or worse. (Firing squad? Barium enemas?)

Teams that ND played this year, Temple and BC illustrate this point by the way. Both had really great defenses, but Matt Rhule figured out how to play offense to maximize his teams effectiveness. As inept as BC's offense was, they weren't much worse than BC.

The difference lies in strategy, more than tactics. In 2012, ND's strategy was sound, even though tactics were often left wanting.

Forget about this years tactics. Forget about what the team wasn't this year; or how it didn't meet your fantasy expectations.

The correct problem you have identified is that this team didn't have the right offensive-defensive strategy integration. And that needs to be addressed. But remember, this team was down 20 starters at one point! Who knows what changes that made?

At any rate I think that if we were to overhear a coaching conversation, they would rarely talk about other teams, or percentile comparisons, etc. Instead I think they would be talking about individual, personnel, tactical, or strategic changes that improve the teams likelihood for success.

That is why we have seen the emphasis on defensive recruiting, and the players that ND has or is working on bringing aboard. And I think that is what some of the posters are looking for in a critique. Not commentary like, "If my dad were Superman, he could kick your dad's ass!"
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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I don't think people out here are saying they wouldn't like a top 10 Irish defense. I think the main argument, at least in my case, is that the Irish do not have to have a top 10 overall defense to win a NC - especially given the offense can score in bunches. I think everyone agrees that they need to improve on that side of the ball next season, but the expectation of jumping into the top 10 overall may be a bit of a stretch, given who may leave early for the draft, graduation, etc.

But he won't kowtow to this line of thinking so it's pointless. I'll let him deal with his own emotional fallout next year. Most of us are looking at percentages and trying to understand the minimum threshold ND needs to achieve on offense and defense to be in the playoffs. Philips is trying to imagine a dream team that ends top 10 in both categories and while, yes, that would be amazing, it's also unrealistic at this point.

And I'll happily eat those words and a whole plate of crow if we make that type of leap next year.
 

philipm31

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But he won't kowtow to this line of thinking so it's pointless. I'll let him deal with his own emotional fallout next year. Most of us are looking at percentages and trying to understand the minimum threshold ND needs to achieve on offense and defense to be in the playoffs. Philips is trying to imagine a dream team that ends top 10 in both categories and while, yes, that would be amazing, it's also unrealistic at this point.

And I'll happily eat those words and a whole plate of crow if we make that type of leap next year.

Again, that is NOT what I said.

And again, I know that we have the talent to be much better on defense. Heck, I think we could be a Top Ten takeaway team if the scheme were adjusted appropriately. For all the blitzing, etc. that we did, to get as few takeaways as we did all year was just sad.

Anyone who thinks that is acceptable is what I disagree with, and I view as a form of defeatism, as in people think that BVG is absolutely the best we could do--which simply is not true.
 

NDty9

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Met him last night

Met him last night

Talked to him for a few and just a couple things we talked about...

- I brought up studstill and what a steal he seems like, and he agreed, but just wants to see if he has the speed to play Free safety for us, but loves what he brings.

- He then went on to rave about the talent we have brought in last year and this year in the secondary. Its got him very excited, because in his words "The damn secondary has been KILLING ME since i got here!" hahah we all know this as ND fans, but it was nice hearing him be so candid about it

- overall was pretty cool talking to him, he was really a VERY COOL guy. would love to crush some beers with him. Again, nothing earth shattering, but i found it to be informative. Definitely someone id like to crush some beers with at the local pub.
 
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koonja

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Talked to him for a few and just a couple things we talked about...

- I brought up studstill and what a steal he seems like, and he agreed, but just wants to see if he has the speed to play Free safety for us, but loves what he brings

- He then went on to rave about the talent we have brought in last year and this year in the secondary. Its got him very excited, because in his words "The damn secondary has been KILLING ME since i got here!" hahah we all know this as ND fans, but it was nice hearing him be so candid about it

- overall was pretty cool talking to him, he was really a VERY COOL guy. would love to crush some beers with him. Again, nothing earth shattering, but i found it to be informative. Definitely someone id like to crush some beers with at the local pub.

Did you ask him about the coverage skills of the DL we're signing this year?

Seriously though, cool story and thanks for sharing.
 
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Irishman77

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Talked to him for a few and just a couple things we talked about...

- I brought up studstill and what a steal he seems like, and he agreed, but just wants to see if he has the speed to play Free safety for us, but loves what he brings

- He then went on to rave about the talent we have brought in last year and this year in the secondary. Its got him very excited, because in his words "The damn secondary has been KILLING ME since i got here!" hahah we all know this as ND fans, but it was nice hearing him be so candid about it

- overall was pretty cool talking to him, he was really a VERY COOL guy. would love to crush some beers with him. Again, nothing earth shattering, but i found it to be informative. Definitely someone id like to crush some beers with at the local pub.

thanks and reps again...

ISD said the staff thinks Elliot could be starting day 1.
 
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woolybug25

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So how close did you get to his mustache? Could you feel it's aura?
 

NDty9

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Did you ask him about the coverage skills of the DL we're signing this year?

Seriously though, cool story and thanks for sharing.

hahaha damn, that questions slipped my mind lol

However, i did regret that i didnt ask him about Demitris Robinson. Although the news today sounds promising for him
 

Domina Nostra

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Talked to him for a few and just a couple things we talked about...

- I brought up studstill and what a steal he seems like, and he agreed, but just wants to see if he has the speed to play Free safety for us, but loves what he brings

- He then went on to rave about the talent we have brought in last year and this year in the secondary. Its got him very excited, because in his words "The damn secondary has been KILLING ME since i got here!" hahah we all know this as ND fans, but it was nice hearing him be so candid about it

- overall was pretty cool talking to him, he was really a VERY COOL guy. would love to crush some beers with him. Again, nothing earth shattering, but i found it to be informative. Definitely someone id like to crush some beers with at the local pub.

Cool! Two observations about BVG (the second one is pointless):

1) While I like to hate on BVG as much as anyone, he is probably right about the secondary. Shumate is a great athlete with a reputation for not understanding what is going on. Max Redfield is a 5-star talent with no instincts. Farley is limited athlete that gre up playing scoccer than WR (God bless that kid!). It still seems strange that we were THAT bad at times.

2) If you were casting a "Remember the Titans"-type movie. And the climax was playing some school from Texas that was ranked #1 in the country, won 100 games in a row, and basically represented Goliath, I would cast BVG as their head coach. He looks to me a terrifying, but incredibly successful, high school football coaching legend.

Did you ask him about the coverage skills of the DL we're signing this year?

Seriously though, cool story and thanks for sharing.

Did anyone notice how Clemson was doing this in the NC? It's in no way just BVG (although he seems to overdo it).
 
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NDRock

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Did anyone notice how Clemson was doing this in the NC? It's in no way just BVG (although he seems to overdo it).

I did notice some Alabama receivers running free due to breakdowns in the Clemson secondary. So they also had that in common with us.
 

kmoose

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We often just assume that every player on ND's football team is highly intelligent, and so people wonder how BVG's defense could be "too complex" for many of them? Maybe this answers that question a little:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">🏎 This text exchange between <a href="https://twitter.com/joeschmidtiv">@joeschmidtiv</a> & <a href="https://twitter.com/chasehounshell">@chasehounshell</a> is confusing.

We think Marty McFly & Doc could help.
<a href="https://t.co/IW5yiABjVq">https://t.co/IW5yiABjVq</a></p>— The Fighting Irish (@FightingIrish) <a href="https://twitter.com/FightingIrish/status/689886976351174657">January 20, 2016</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Sheesh, Chase!!
:wink:
 

NorthDakota

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2) If you were casting a "Remember the Titans"-type movie. And the climax was playing some school from Texas that was ranked #1 in the country, won 100 games in a row, and basically represented Goliath, I would cast BVG as their head coach. He looks to me a terrifying, but incredibly successful, high school football coaching legend.
.

Did you not see Friday Night Lights(the movie, not the shitty tv show)?
 

Andy in Sactown

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Did you not see Friday Night Lights(the movie, not the shitty tv show)?

You're on crack if you think the TV show was anything short of awesome.

20131130_blp505.jpg


Word.

Somebody clearly hasn't found their inner pirate.

Yarr! I actually thought the movie was just okay, but I've rewatched the show twice now b/c it's just savage. Clear eyes, full hearts.
 

greyhammer90

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The show is garbage. I tried to watch it on suggestions from friends. Acting and scripts were just too cringe for me to sit through. Movie is great though, but it isn't a sports movie. It's a low income "look at this trainwreck" movie.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Wait, I was looking for the BVG thread.

I've been thinking a lot, which is never good.

But ND was one of the top improvers at 8.8 points per game in the regular season. Over six were on the defense, reducing opponents point totals. And I think we played better offenses in '15 than '14. In Georgia, BVG started to catch the second year, and really took hold the third.

After the experience of Notre Dame not having the right quarterback for 5 years, and having a roster full on year 6, I wonder. For example, was KeiVarae Russell, analogous to Everett Golson? And Max another Dane Crist? The list goes on, but Kelly was deeper with Smith and Motta than he became with his own players at safety, definitely. And did injuries to Crawford (primarily), Sebastian, and Tranquil ruin this season past? I wonder.
 

Old Man Mike

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Bogs is exactly on the money here. Put another way, Coach Kelly labored with flawed quarterbacking until this last year. Now the offense is one of the more explosive around. Analogously, BVG has has one elite linebacker all of his tenure and one NFL quality safety [Motta]. You cannot stop the other guys' explosive plays with that [especially the safety inconsistency/incompetence.]

Kelly got his QBing fixed. BVG looks to be developing his DBack corps for a fix [though as much as I like Lyght, I believe that the jury should remain out on the coaching side there]. It's the fast instinctive linebacking corps that is not there [as far as I can see.] Kuechley reminded us the other day that there is nothing more important in linebacking than getting a quick first step going in the correct direction. If you don't have that, you need to be on the bench [as is a certain five-star.] If we don't get those sorts of linebackers in place, we will still fall short especially vs power teams, even if the DBacks stop the bombs.
 

Luckylucci

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1. Motta played under Diaco.

2. As we've come to learn. Lyght gets no film room time with his players. So until that changes, I'm definitely not hanging any of the blame on him. No time other than the field to communicate with them. I've never heard of that before.
 

House16

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2. As we've come to learn. Lyght gets no film room time with his players. So until that changes, I'm definitely not hanging any of the blame on him. No time other than the field to communicate with them. I've never heard of that before.

Can you expand on this? How do we know this / any rationale why? Seems really weird.
 
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