BVG Fired

[tko]

The defense played well enough, last night, to win the game........... if the offense does its job and doesn't give it away like a crack whore looking for a fix. The defense is not great, but it is good enough. The offense is dynamic enough to make up for the limitations of the defense. And the defense is capable of putting together two or three great performances. It's not the prom queen, but it's a very respectable 8.

tremendous, reps

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

I don't understand how bvg is getting thrown under the bus by some.

As far as I'm concerned, he's doing a great job. Transitioning from diacos defense to his is and was no easy task. We started off looking like it worked over night, but that was just an illusion based on the fact we were playing inferior teams.

Now, we are seeing that we have more work to do. We need for guys to get healthy. We need for guys to return from suspension, and we need for our young guys to mentally and physically develop more.

To say our defense doesn't have promise going forward is insulting. This defense has a much higher ceiling than any team diaco ever put on the field.
Be patient guys, the team is young.

 

[kmoose]

I don't understand how bvg is getting thrown under the bus by some.

As far as I'm concerned, he's doing a great job. Transitioning from diacos defense to his is and was no easy task. We started off looking like it worked over night, but that was just an illusion based on the fact we were playing inferior teams.

Now, we are seeing that we have more work to do. We need for guys to get healthy. We need for guys to return from suspension, and we need for our young guys to mentally and physically develop more.

To say our defense doesn't have promise going forward is insulting. This defense has a much higher ceiling than any team diaco ever put on the field.
Be patient guys, the team is young.

I think it is just a pendulum swing: people have been all over his nads, this season, about how well the defense has played. They probably got a little overzealous in their praise of him, and now that the Defense is showing some cracks, the pendulum is swinging the other way. As is almost always the case: there is one side, there is the other side, and the truth resides somewhere in between.

 

[Grahambo]

I think it is just a pendulum swing: people have been all over his nads, this season, about how well the defense has played. They probably got a little overzealous in their praise of him, and now that the Defense is showing some cracks, the pendulum is swinging the other way. As is almost always the case: there is one side, there is the other side, and the truth resides somewhere in between.

I follow that logic more then most.

Looking back, yeah, the praise was over the top but at the time, it was warranted. Its easier to look back and say yeah, that was too much. As some have pointed out, it is a difficult defense to grasp and you're also mixing in a lot of young players. Just about everybody returns next season so that'll be a true test. I remember Diaco's first year when he struggled mightily against Navy and was able to adjust moving forward, BVG deserves the same patience.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Doesn't even make sense. You can't say you "don't buy the youth argument" and then admit that we're playing with absurd amounts of youth but that it's "part of the game."



True frosh MLB, two soph OLBs, RS soph DT, junior DT, soph DE, true frosh DE, two soph CBs, soph safety, junior safety. Not one senior on the entire defense... 9/11 are underclassmen. And missing FIVE projected upperclassmen starters to injury/suspension.



People pointing the finger at BVG for these point totals are ignorant. Outside of Navy, there hasn't been a "bad" scheme in any single game. Only thing you can look at is a weakness in red zone defense that I think is partially on scheme.

Agree. No to mention first ever start for a freshmen mlb and sophmore cb


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[BeauBenken]

Arizona State had only two touchdown drives that were longer than 25 yards.

Pretty easy to score points when you start within scoring position every time.

 

[irishff1014]

Like i said we had some really good games against teams that have turned out to be not so good. Some on here boasted he defense into more then they were and expected to much from the defense. Teams normally have some flaws in year 1 of a new system.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Like i said we had some really good games against teams that have turned out to be not so good. Some on here boasted he defense into more then they were and expected to much from the defense. Teams normally have some flaws in year 1 of a new system.

Agree. As mentioned by our bama friend, it took a year or two for Georgia to become a dominant defense under BVG


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[blackirish]

Not sure if it has been mentioned, but the starting defense yesterday had zero seniors. In the two deep yesterday only one player, Utupo, is not returning next year. Not sure how you expect to have an elite defense without any seniors. Not to mention first start for a freshman MLB and a sophomore corner.


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well FSU has been saying the same thing, but they won the game against us bad call or not.

 

[blackirish]

Agree. As mentioned by our bama friend, it took a year or two for Georgia to become a dominant defense under BVG


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when was Georgia a dominant defense ?.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

when was Georgia a dominant defense ?.

Dunno if BVG was there, but that year they destroyed Hawaii in the Sugar Bowl, they had a dominant defense.

 

[ulukinatme]

I realize that the offense gift wrapped a bunch of points for ASU, but not all 55 points worth. You've got to hope that your defense is at least forcing some field goals here and there, and currently our defense is horrible in the red-zone.

 

[irishandy]

For those of you blaming BVG did you watch the game?? I bet it was BVG's fault that Golden Golson had 4 picks as well.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I think it is just a pendulum swing: people have been all over his nads, this season, about how well the defense has played. They probably got a little overzealous in their praise of him, and now that the Defense is showing some cracks, the pendulum is swinging the other way. As is almost always the case: there is one side, there is the other side, and the truth resides somewhere in between.

Totally agree. As a fan, I'm trying to be a bit more like a good pitcher. Don't get too high, don't get too low. When we win, be excited. When we lose, go get 'em next time. It actually helps my blood pressure.

 

[pkt77242]

Totally agree. As a fan, I'm trying to be a bit more like a good pitcher. Don't get too high, don't get too low. When we win, be excited. When we lose, go get 'em next time. It actually helps my blood pressure.

I find that a few beers or a nice big glass of whisky helps my blood pressure.

 

[IrishinSyria]

For those of you blaming BVG did you watch the game?? I bet it was BVG's fault that Golden Golson had 4 picks as well.

Obviously the loss wasn't on our D.

At the same time...they didn't exactly do much of anything either.

We're getting destroyed in the red zone (we're tied for 94th in the country for RZ scoring % and our TD/FG ration would likely make that stat look even worse.)

Our blitzes have stopped reaching the QB. We had 12 sacks in the first five games of the season and 4 sacks in the last 4. 2 of those were against Navy. Worse, our blitzes don't seem to even be generating any significant pressure.

Our DB's have been letting people get behind them. We gave up at least two deep passes yesterday, but the damage could have been worse if their QB hadn't sailed a couple on his guys.

This D has played a lot better than I thought they would, and when you take into account the injuries, the players leaving for the NFL, and the suspended players, their performance has been a minor miracle. HOWEVER, there are certainly reasons to be concerned. We're a blitzing D that's generated 1 sack per game over the course of a month. That's worrisome.

 

[Irish YJ]

I realize that the offense gift wrapped a bunch of points for ASU, but not all 55 points worth. You've got to hope that your defense is at least forcing some field goals here and there, and currently our defense is horrible in the red-zone.

D and O played awful at times. Sometimes they looked fantastic, sometimes they looked horrible. Blaming either side is pretty silly. Plenty of blame to go around.

Totally agree. As a fan, I'm trying to be a bit more like a good pitcher. Don't get too high, don't get too low. When we win, be excited. When we lose, go get 'em next time. It actually helps my blood pressure.

Amen. Watching this IE meltdown reminds to keep myself in check.

I think it is just a pendulum swing: people have been all over his nads, this season, about how well the defense has played. They probably got a little overzealous in their praise of him, and now that the Defense is showing some cracks, the pendulum is swinging the other way. As is almost always the case: there is one side, there is the other side, and the truth resides somewhere in between.

It was really easy to jump on his nads after UM. After we saw UM for what it truly is, and after we saw that our D was not what we thought,,,,, easy to understand.
Junior Mafia this year, Gangsta next.

A lot to look forward to next year, and hell, a lot to look forward to this year. Playing all the young guys will make us all the better next. Blessed to have a crazy young and talented team, even though their lack of experience, and transition to a new D made it a bit bumpy this year.

Go Irish.

 

[OCIrish]

I have no issues with Van Gorder. In my opinion, he has worked a near miracle in putting together a decent defense with personnel having four returners [one of whom, Redfield, didn't yet understand his position.] He worked a near miracle with no healthy safeties who understood the mental aspect of how to play, and with no players at all who had experience in the new system. He incorporated more redshirt and true freshmen into a decent defense than I've ever seen in my life.

Now, he was "stuck" with grooming a walk-on middle linebacker because his one true stud MLB [Grace] could not yet go --- and now Grace still cannot go, and Hero Joe is also out for the rest of the season. The only apparently viable option [and still have an MLB in the game] is a talented young kid without a clue about the college game yet. And he was forced to play a super-dangerous ASU offense without one of his shutdown corners.

I'm not sure what some people expect that a DC can reasonably accomplish given those sorts of limitations. I'll "happily" sit by and listen to gripes about our never-know-what-to-expect quarterbacking, or even whether one can expect five OLinemen to block six rushers [though it's tough to listen to that as well] [but I do since Matt has a hard time containing a DT for more than a count or so]. But listening to what is to me completely irrational demands placed upon BVG crosses the line.

As to our DLine: I believe that Sheldon Day is an All-American. Maybe not first team, but he's getting doubleblocked most of the time, and is making furious efforts all game. I believe that once Andrew Trumbetti gets to the point where he can manage a larger "volume of work", we will have two FINE defensive ends. The other young studs also seem to be good potential pass-rush types with growth and reps. You do not get Jadaveon Clowney on your team just because you want him. DLinemen don't dominate every play no matter how good they are... and BVG MUST blitz, because we are not going to get there quickly going four rushers on five or six blockers.

If I thought that the defense was the worst thing to worry about on this team, I'd still be drinking the Koolaid.

Nice......reps!!!

 

[blackirish]

Dunno if BVG was there, but that year they destroyed Hawaii in the Sugar Bowl, they had a dominant defense.

No they really weren't, they were rated like 69th or 70th in the country that year ( 2008) and lets not forget the reason Hawaii looked all world was because they were in the WAC Conference which teams played little or no defense at all.....and they still don't damner 7 yrs later ! not to mention Georgia was twice as big and fast,and when the game started it showed because it looked like a bunch grown men teeing off on a group of 6th graders !

 

[Crazy Balki]

No they really weren't, they were rated like 69th or 70th in the country that year ( 2008) and lets not forget the reason Hawaii looked all world was because they were in the WAC Conference which teams played little or no defense at all.....and they still don't damner 7 yrs later ! not to mention Georgia was twice as big and fast,and when the game started it showed because it looked like a bunch grown men teeing off on a group of 6th graders !

It's a moot point, that was Willie Martinez, not BVG. BVG led the 02, 03 and 04 squads, which all had dominant defenses. Some of the best in the country.

 

[Crazy Balki]

when was Georgia a dominant defense ?.

All 4 years he was at Georgia, 01-04. Interesting statistic. Georgia only gave up 30 or more points once during BVG's tenure (2003 SEC Title vs. LSU).

 

[nico7980]

So.
JJ is gimpy.
Our "QB" for the D out.
A true frosh starting in his position. So basically a simplified scheme.
A true frosh at End.
Something like 9 underclassmen played on D.
Most lacking not only in real game experience. But learning a new D.

That's a ton to get over for ANY D Coordinator. Especially against a team that goes tempo.

Just my .02

 

[Whiskeyjack]

NBC's Keith Arnold just published an article titled "High Stakes Struggles: ND Defense Failing When It Counts":

Heading into the season, questions surrounded Notre Dame’s defense. With key starters gone at every position, the strength of Brian Kelly’s previous four teams would need to replace a cast of characters that played a lot of really good football.

Add to that the departure of Bob Diaco, and new defensive coordinator Brian VanGorder was not only taking over a depth chart with really limited experience, he’d be teaching that group an entirely new system, a complex scheme that developed over the past 10 years, mostly in the NFL.

Through nine games, the results have been a mixed bag. There have been high-water marks: The first-ever shutout of Michigan.

There have been struggles: North Carolina’s up-tempo attack and Navy’s triple option. But for the most part, the play of the defense — a group that lost key starters Ishaq Williams and KeiVarae Russell in training camp — has been impressive.

That Notre Dame’s rush defense would rank 38th in the country after losing Stephon Tuitt and Louis Nix from the front four (from a defense that finished 71st in the same category in 2013) should have just about every Irish fan jumping for joy. Especially when you look at the youth up front — only Sheldon Day and Justin Utupo are the only upperclassmen (from an eligibility perspective) in the regular rotation.

Even the Irish secondary is holding its own. Playing a man-heavy coverage scheme that’s put in high-leverage situations as VanGorder utilizes multiple blitz looks to get pressure on the quarterback, the secondary has held up. The loss of Russell, expected to be an All-American-caliber player, crushed the depth at cornerback.

Injuries to captain Austin Collinsworth, safety Nicky Baratti, and most recently cornerback Cody Riggs, haven’t helped either. (Also add in the suspension of Eilar Hardy until last week and the likely redshirts of Josh Atkinson and Jalen Brown, two seniors who’ll probably finish their football careers elsewhere in 2015.) Ranked a respectable 61st in the nation, the Irish are giving up 226 yards a game through the air, with their 13 interceptions nearly matching the 14 touchdown catches they’ve allowed.

So what’s been the problem exactly? Why did a team that gave up just 12 points a game through the first five Saturdays of the season turn into a group that’s given up 42 points a game in the next four?

Two critical areas: Sudden Change Defense and Red Zone Defense.

To be clear, this isn’t just a defensive problem. And all the focus on Everett Golson and his turnover struggles have made that abundantly clear. Those turnovers have forced a young group into some high-leverage situations, and when the stakes have been at their highest, VanGorder’s defense just hasn’t been able to get the stops.

Let’s take a closer look at two reasons why the Irish have been giving up more points. After being stout in these two critical areas the past two seasons, Notre Dame’s opponents are cashing in at a far better rate.

SUDDEN CHANGE DEFENSE

Our measurement of sudden change defense looks at the drives coming right after a turnover. For simplicity of statistics, we’re counting interception and fumble returns for touchdowns as sudden change scores, another indicator of the shared blame between the offense and defense.

A quick look at the last three seasons shows just how far the Irish are lagging behind in this critical measurement. Through nine games, the Irish have already turned the ball over 19 times, that’s more than last season’s total of 17 and more than the 15 turnovers the Irish had during their 2012 run to the BCS title game.

Just as critically, the Irish’s response to those turnovers has been far worse than the previous two seasons. Notre Dame has given up scores on 12 of those turnovers, with 11 of those coming as touchdowns. In no game has this stat played more prominently than against Arizona State. The 28 points the Irish gave up off of turnovers is the main reason Notre Dame won’t be competing for a spot in the College Football Playoff.

Reaching a conclusion on why this change has occurred would be a lot of guess work. Young personnel could be playing tighter in critical situations. An abundance of scheme might make it difficult to play-call in the immediate aftermath of a turnover.

Practice priorities for VanGorder, who is still likely installing and coaching up the basics, might limit the time this group has for these moments during the week. Or it could just be rotten luck and good execution by the opponent. (That, and there is no defense for a pick six.)

In the moments following the loss to Arizona State, I asked Kelly what the change has been in Sudden Change situations.

“Couldn’t tell you,” the coach replied.

RED ZONE DEFENSE

Where the struggles have been the most obvious are in the red zone. Put simply, once an opponent gets inside Notre Dame’s 20-yard line, they’ve scored far more often than in years past. After being among the best defenses in the country the past two seasons in the scoring areas, the exact opposite has taken place this season.

Notre Dame is an awful 97th in traditional red zone defense. That number gets even worse when you look at touchdowns, where the Irish rank 114th in the country.

Again, the reasons for these difficulties are puzzling. Notre Dame’s rush defense is better on whole than it was in 2013, yet that certainly turns inside the 20. And while Bob Diaco’s 3-4 base scheme often gave opponents a little to prevent giving them a lot, once the field shrunk, Diaco’s defense stiffened considerably.

In the red zone, the margin for error drastically drops. Perhaps this is where the learning curve is most distinct. With young players along the defensive front, attacking linebackers still understanding the fundamentals of their responsibilities, and a secondary playing new starters across the board, it doesn’t take long for a mistake to turn into a touchdown.

We’ve heard Kelly continually talk about the need for communication. There’s no doubt that this is one of those places where communication is key. It’s also worth looking at the personnel construct of this unit. After playing large, big-bodied defenders all across the front seven, the 2014 defense is the opposite. Joe Schmidt (and now Nyles Morgan) and Jaylon Smith give up quite a bit of heft to Dan Fox, Carlo Calabrese and Jarrett Grace. The freshmen playing along the defensive line won’t be mistaken for Stephon Tuitt and Louis Nix.

Drawing too many conclusions about scheme change or coaching mistakes without taking into full consideration just how different the personnel is between this year and last isn’t necessarily fair. But regardless of the reason, the drop off in the red zone has been startling.

Reaching Conclusions

If anything, looking at the numbers from the past few years should give you greater appreciation of the units the Irish have featured. When put into difficult situations, the defense carried this team — and no time more obvious than in 2012.

Notre Dame’s sudden change defense was as outstanding as their success in the red zone. While limiting their turnovers to just 15 with a first-year quarterback behind center, what the defense did once the offense turned the ball over was nothing short of astounding.

Against Navy, Everett Golson’s first interception was immediately followed by Stephon Tuitt’s fumble-return for a touchdown. Against Michigan, the Irish pushed the Wolverines back 15 yards in three plays before Brendan Gibbons missed a field goal. Golson’s second interception was negated when Manti Te’o picked off Denard Robinson.

You can go on and on.Somehow, Notre Dame’s defense continuously took an opponent’s opportunity at a momentum swing and turned it into one for the Irish. Bennett Jackson picked off a pass after Golson fumbled against Stanford. The Irish forced a punt on another Golson fumble against the Cardinal, only allowing a score because Stanford’s defense put up the seven points after sacking and stripping Golson in the end zone.

That special season continued in the red zone. It was a product of great personnel playing a scheme that demanded — and received — assignment correct football.

Even with Alabama going five-for-five in red zone touchdowns, the Irish finished third in the country in touchdowns allowed in the red zone. Their final regular season numbers were incredible, just eight touchdown in 33 red zone appearances. Numbers like those are a large reason why that defense will go down among the best in school history.

***

There are still four more games in 2014, giving the depleted Irish defense plenty of opportunities to improve in the season’s final quarter. That gives VanGorder and Kelly not just the next three weeks to get better, but the month of bowl preparations, a huge developmental time for a team looking to do even bigger things in 2015.

Next season can wait. For this young group to make progress, they’ll need to do a better job of coming up big in the critical moments.

Follow the link above to see a couple tables Arnold put together demonstrating how we've regressed into those two categories over the last few seasons.

 

[Luckylucci]

Good article. For me, I'll be watching the red zone D throughout the rest of this season as much as anything because it has to get better going into next year. I've kind of reached critical mass in the last two weeks with how poor its been.

 

[IrishLax]

Article doesn't do enough to touch on WHY it's bad in the red zone. Would love NBC or OFD or someone to dissect that.

My off-the-cuff is that:
1. It's much harder to score in the red zone against great zone coverage than mediocre man-to-man especially with our size at corner. This isn't the primary method of opponents getting in the endzone but it is a contributing factor.
2. Corners also haven't been great against the run, which matters a lot more in the redzone than elsewhere.
3. Safeties don't make big plays. Really haven't all year.
4. Whoever is responsible for routes to the flats doesn't get there. Ever.
5. The timing of plays is quicker which gives less time for pressures to get home effectively eliminating how our defense creates negative plays between the 20s.
6. Linebackers haven't been able to "take on blockers" all year.

Typically, teams with good redzone defense have a trump strength that they play to forcing the opponent to become one-dimensional. Either they have wrecking crew DL that are disruptive no matter how you try to block them OR an immovable rush defense that you can't run into the teeth of OR instinctive linebackers that don't get fooled and can make plays OR shutdown corners OR ... it's when the defense can't impose their will in any phase and the whole play book is open for the opponent that they surrender easy TDs.

 

[BGIF]

ND's only given up 4 more turnovers than in '12 (13 games) but allowed 7 more scores and 6 of those 7 were TDs.


ND's season stats from und.com

UND.COM - University of Notre Dame Official Athletic Site - Football


ND OPP
SCORING 314 228
Pts/Game 34.9 25.3
TO Pts 90 161

N.B. I believe the 161 is actually represents the number of points scored by Opponents Offenses without benefit of turnovers as 161/19 would equal 8.5 points/turnover. That doesn't work even in Tallahassee. It appears somebody at ND compiling the stats used the wrong subtrahend.

Keith Arnold's table lists Opponents scoring 6 TDs and 1 FG which could be a max of 69 points but opponents actually missed two XPs. (I didn't check the 9 game play by plays to verify when the missed XPs occurred as the math works. I also didn't verify ND's PTOs via the play by plays.)

CORRECTED ND TABLE

ND OPP
SCORING 314 228
Pts/Game 34.9 25.3
TO Pts 90 67


According to this data, ND scored 28.7% of their points off of TOs while the Opponents scored 29.4% almost a wash with ND's gift scoring.

More surprisingly ND has scored more points off of TOs than the Opponents. That wasn't my perception from watching and discussing the game.


Without benefit of TOs ND's Offense has scored 224 points or 24.9 ppg.

Without benefit of TOs ND's Opponents Offenses have scored 161 points or 17.9 ppg.


ND's offense isn't as high powered as we give it credit and the defense isn't as porous as we complain. The pick 6s and the TO's in our own red zone make it appear worse. Being clustered in the ASU game rather than being distributed throughout the season cost a game.

 

[Luckylucci]

Article doesn't do enough to touch on WHY it's bad in the red zone. Would love NBC or OFD or someone to dissect that.

My off-the-cuff is that:
1. It's much harder to score in the red zone against great zone coverage than mediocre man-to-man especially with our size at corner. This isn't the primary method of opponents getting in the endzone but it is a contributing factor.
2. Corners also haven't been great against the run, which matters a lot more in the redzone than elsewhere.
3. Safeties don't make big plays. Really haven't all year.
4. Whoever is responsible for routes to the flats doesn't get there. Ever.
5. The timing of plays is quicker which gives less time for pressures to get home effectively eliminating how our defense creates negative plays between the 20s.
6. Linebackers haven't been able to "take on blockers" all year.

Typically, teams with good redzone defense have a trump strength that they play to forcing the opponent to become one-dimensional. Either they have wrecking crew DL that are disruptive no matter how you try to block them OR an immovable rush defense that you can't run into the teeth of OR instinctive linebackers that don't get fooled and can make plays OR shutdown corners OR ... it's when the defense can't impose their will in any phase and the whole play book is open for the opponent that they surrender easy TDs.

I'd really like to see that as well. With that said, I agree with some of the basics that you posted.

 

[greyhammer90]

Lulz

 

[IrishLion]

Yeah this defense is regressing lol

 

[irishff1014]

Everyone busted on Diaco for his defense and i think we are worse now.