Bradley Manning Guilty On 20 Of 21 Charges

[BobD]

I'd disgrace my country at every opportunity.

No doubt.

 

[pkt77242]

If exposing war crimes is disgracing my country, then I'd disgrace my country at every opportunity.

The problem with that theory is that he released a Hell of a lot more information than just that about war crimes. He released tons of other information as well. If all he released was a couple of documents and a video or two depicting war crimes than you would have a better arguement.

 

[kmoose]

I want to hear what the prior service (regardless of branch) IE members think.

If all he had done was release video footage or documents that indicated that some military members had committed war crimes; then I would be angry, but not at Manning. But that's not the case. This guy released documents, to an entity that he KNEW was going to publish those documents for anyone and everyone in the world to see, that contained names of indigenous people who were collaborating with the US military. He "outed" spies, in other words. In a time of war. That is treasonous, no matter how anyone tries to spin it. Penalties for treason in times of war are pretty stiff, and for good reason. I don't know if they should hang him, or put him in front of a firing squad; but I definitely think that he should spend the rest of his life in jail.

 

[greyhammer90]

No doubt.

so you'd think he's a traitor even if exposing war crimes was all he had done?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I want to hear what the prior service (regardless of branch) IE members think.

I think

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
- Hamlet (1.5.166-7), Hamlet to Horatio

Did any of you see the video? I don't think anyone should have the right to post assumptions without viewing it first. I took my service seriously. I cannot tell you the time I wanted to frag smart asses who had no regard for any human life. I was all about the good guys winning, but you have to work to be the good guys.

The same was true all the way back to Viet Nam, and I am sure before that as well. Boo boo's happened. Boo boo's were covered up. What is your process for eliminating boo boo's. Promotion?

I never understood the shear volume of the information. Apparently, much more was taken than was actually released.

But the backdrop to this is covert prisons being set up all over the world, so prisoners do not receive the benefit of US law, all the while authorities are arguing that detainees on US soil are not entitled to due process. Talking about this whole thing is a lot like the time I had to watch a film about draining an infected wound, and it showed burn debridement for good measure.

If all he had done was release video footage or documents that indicated that some military members had committed war crimes; then I would be angry, but not at Manning. But that's not the case. This guy released documents, to an entity that he KNEW was going to publish those documents for anyone and everyone in the world to see, that contained names of indigenous people who were collaborating with the US military. He "outed" spies, in other words. In a time of war. That is treasonous, no matter how anyone tries to spin it. Penalties for treason in times of war are pretty stiff, and for good reason. I don't know if they should hang him, or put him in front of a firing squad; but I definitely think that he should spend the rest of his life in jail.

I think that there is a lot of confusion about what Manning leaked. At one point a described 260,000 diplomatic cables were on the block, not yet attributed to Manning. Then the release was significantly less than that and only a small portion of the ovr 400,000 cables released on WikiLeaks. The majority of stuff related to Manning was videos of civilian deaths, where pilots were informed of that targets status prior to being liquefied, prison information, embarrassing information related to our allies, and war journals. I don't remember one item inventoried related to "outing a covert operative." Not like the administration did in the Rove-Libbey-Plame case.

 

[BobD]

so you'd think he's a traitor even if exposing war crimes was all he had done?

No, that's why I deleted that part of his comment. I have no doubt about the second half of his statement.

The world is full of inexperienced critics who think they know better.

 

[greyhammer90]

No, that's why I deleted that part of his comment. I have no doubt about the second half of his statement.

The world is full of inexperienced critics who think they know better.

Educate us then. I don't think it's ridiculous to demand a better excuse than "you ignorant critics just don't get it" when the constitution is being trampled on.

Saying that someone would disgrace their country is one hell of an accusation, so I'd like to hear a better reason than just saying he's a fool.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I look forward to the sentences for the 20 guilty charges being served consecutively.

Does he get to serve them with clothing, or naked and under 24 hour observation? This could be another way for someone that wants to inflict pain on him to get their pleasure out of the situation. Most of the time he has been incarcerated, he has been treated in a manner reserved for and honed by practice on those we consider enemy combatants.

 

[ND NYC]

For any "Pro-Manning" and "Pro-Snowden" folks on here, or people who think (gasp) that these kids are heros, i only wish you could have seen the Charlie Rose interview with retired CIA and NSA Director Mike Hayden last night.

what Manning did was bad...real bad...but what Snowden did and still yet may do has the potential to be disastrous.

this is serious businesss dealing with our enemies, terrorists throughut the world people.

there are sick and beyond evil people in this world, millions, that would kill as many Americans as they possibly could if given the chance.

we need to always remember this. have we forgotten 9-11-01? wake up to the reality of this world we live in.

and i dont want to hear that ben franklin security quote--that guy dealt with muskets and cannons--we have nukes/dirty bombs now to worry about.

like Grahambo said above "some get it...and others do not"

anything that any american does to get ij the way of our security is at worst a traitor to me and at best is a self-serving, naive, narcissitic moron with no clue about what we are up against.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Educate us then. I don't think it's ridiculous to demand a better excuse than "you ignorant critics just don't get it" when the constitution is being trampled on.

Saying that someone would disgrace their country is one hell of an accusation, so I'd like to hear a better reason than just saying he's a fool.

In my experience there always been a lot of people that hide behind authority, a flag, a crucifix, or some other symbol. And these specific people make the most derogatory comments, and the most absolute. The truth is, most people want what is good for the many. And only a handful are traitorous. If this wasn't true, if the red scare was valid, we would have been long gone.

But what we need is better restraint and control. With the power of technology, and those with money living in a relatively safe world (for them) for the first time, we need some new and powerful oversight. Calling Buster, a good IE friend of mine names isn't it.

Three things really have me: This whole site retreats to name calling when one persons beliefs are not accepted by others; I believe that we are headed to an alarming sociopathological level of acceptable behavior; talking is the least important thing we do. I don't hear anyone saying "I want to understand why you feel that way."

I will ask again. What happened here that it has to ultimately result in name calling like this? After all, if it weren't for the outstanding moral fiber of posters like Grahambo, (and others that I defer naming) Iraq and Afghanistan would have been complete Devil's playgrounds. It was the overwhelming morality of the feet on the ground that kept any honor in our actions in any war zone since 'Nam. It wasn't command and control, or our leadership, that is for sure!

 

[BobD]

Educate us then. I don't think it's ridiculous to demand a better excuse than "you ignorant critics just don't get it" when the constitution is being trampled on.

Saying that someone would disgrace their country is one hell of an accusation, so I'd like to hear a better reason than just saying he's a fool.

I have a long drive and meetings all day. He said he'd disgrace his country, I highlighted it.
Attempting to defend a convicted traitor is a disgrace.

I'll be back when I can to elaborate more.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I have a long drive and meetings all day. He said he'd disgrace his country, I highlighted it.
Attempting to defend a convicted traitor is a disgrace.

I'll be back when I can to elaborate more.

Showing for perhaps the hundredth time your complete disregard for the law. EVERYONE deserves a defense, it's one of the cornerstones of this country's once-great justice system. Of course, you don't give a **** about what is just.

 

[Grahambo]

Showing for perhaps the hundredth time your complete disregard for the law. EVERYONE deserves a defense, it's one of the cornerstones of this country's once-great justice system. Of course, you don't give a **** about what is just.

Says the guy who claimed he would disgrace his country.

 

[Buster Bluth]

For any "Pro-Manning" and "Pro-Snowden" folks on here, or people who think (gasp) that these kids are heros, i only wish you could have seen the Charlie Rose interview with retired CIA and NSA Director Mike Hayden last night.

what Manning did was bad...real bad...but what Snowden did and still yet may do has the potential to be disastrous.

this is serious businesss dealing with our enemies, terrorists throughut the world people.

there are sick and beyond evil people in this world, millions, that would kill as many Americans as they possibly could if given the chance.

we need to always remember this. have we forgotten 9-11-01? wake up to the reality of this world we live in.

and i dont want to hear that ben franklin security quote--that guy dealt with muskets and cannons--we have nukes/dirty bombs now to worry about.

like Grahambo said above "some get it...and others do not"

anything that any american does to get ij the way of our security is at worst a traitor to me and at best is a self-serving, naive, narcissitic moron with no clue about what we are up against.

I don't think you have a clue what we're up against. The Red Scare has been replaced by the Muslim Scare. You're more likely to die of you refrigerator falling on you than a terrorist attack. And for the true irony of the situation: our actions in the middle east are only creating more enemies. People were absolutely outraged when those kids died in the kindergarten shooting in Connecticut, that's how many kids die annually in Pakistan from our drones.

For all you folks pleading to make sure national security is a priority, you should start criticizing our bull-in-a-China-shop policies.

 

[Fbolt]

Says the guy who claimed he would disgrace his country.

LOL. The guy who allows himself the choice of which laws to obey and which to follow.

Btw-# was aimed at Manning/Snowden, not you BB.

 

[Redbar]

Interesting philosophical issues arise from this case, it reminds me of a very good documentary out right now called, The Man Nobody Knew, it is on HBO or some other movie channel, here is a synopsis:

Narrated by Carl Colby, son of the late Director of Central Intelligence William E. Colby, The Man Nobody Knew traces the elder Colby's career in the U.S. intelligence community, along with and in contrast to his home life, including the secrets he kept from his family.[1] The film begins with Colby's service in World War II as an officer and paratrooper with the OSS, and follows his rise through the Central Intelligence Agency, where his roles included political covert action to oppose the Communist Party in Italy, later counterinsurgency actions and involvement in the 1963 coup in South Vietnam (in concert with President John F. Kennedy) during the Vietnam War, and later as Director of Central Intelligence in the 1970s. During Colby's brief, tumultuous tenure leading the agency, he revealed the existence of documents describing illegal activities by the CIA, known as the "Family Jewels", in an effort to reform the agency. The film concludes with Colby's disappearance and death in April 1996.[ End.


He was ultimately replaced by Gerald Ford, for someone Ford considered a loyalist, a guy named George Bush. Anyway Mr. Colby grew up in the intelligence community and truly believed there was a prominent role for intelligence in the U.S. defense apparatus, but he thought being open an honest about their mistakes and shortcommings was the best way to protect it in the long run. He also felt we should discuss as a nation what levels of secrecy and what tactics we felt were acceptable. In the documentary Don Rumsfeld asks the question, "As a department head to whom do you owe your allegiance?" Is it to the person who appointed you, the president, or is it to the agency you represent, the men and women under you? Is it to the Constitution? Is it to the American People and how do you achieve that? Or does every individual ultimately owe their allegiance to their own conscience and their personal sense of right and wrong? I see the parallels here and I am not sure what the right answer is, but I know that if your allegiances require you to cover up a crime or act in a cruel or unlawful way they are probably misplaced.

 

[Grahambo]

Interesting philosophical issues arise from this case, it reminds me of a very good documentary out right now called, The Man Nobody Knew, it is on HBO or some other movie channel, here is a synopsis:

Narrated by Carl Colby, son of the late Director of Central Intelligence William E. Colby, The Man Nobody Knew traces the elder Colby's career in the U.S. intelligence community, along with and in contrast to his home life, including the secrets he kept from his family.[1] The film begins with Colby's service in World War II as an officer and paratrooper with the OSS, and follows his rise through the Central Intelligence Agency, where his roles included political covert action to oppose the Communist Party in Italy, later counterinsurgency actions and involvement in the 1963 coup in South Vietnam (in concert with President John F. Kennedy) during the Vietnam War, and later as Director of Central Intelligence in the 1970s. During Colby's brief, tumultuous tenure leading the agency, he revealed the existence of documents describing illegal activities by the CIA, known as the "Family Jewels", in an effort to reform the agency. The film concludes with Colby's disappearance and death in April 1996.[ End.


He was ultimately replaced by Gerald Ford, for someone Ford considered a loyalist, a guy named George Bush. Anyway Mr. Colby grew up in the intelligence community and truly believed there was a prominent role for intelligence in the U.S. defense apparatus, but he thought being open an honest about their mistakes and shortcommings was the best way to protect it in the long run. He also felt we should discuss as a nation what levels of secrecy and what tactics we felt were acceptable. In the documentary Don Rumsfeld asks the question, "As a department head to whom do you owe your allegiance?" Is it to the person who appointed you, the president, or is it to the agency you represent, the men and women under you? Is it to the Constitution? Is it to the American People and how do you achieve that? Or does every individual ultimately owe their allegiance to their own conscience and their personal sense of right and wrong? I see the parallels here and I am not sure what the right answer is, but I know that if your allegiances require you to cover up a crime or act in a cruel or unlawful way they are probably misplaced.

I saw that documentary on Netflix. It was a terrific piece.

 

[TheRealLynch51]

I don't think you have a clue what we're up against. The Red Scare has been replaced by the Muslim Scare. You're more likely to die of you refrigerator falling on you than a terrorist attack.

And why do you think that is? Because Homeland Security, the NSA, the CIA and our armed forces do their job well. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't agree with crimes against humanity, but he clearly broke the law and was sentenced accordingly.

 

[greyhammer90]

Says the guy who claimed he would disgrace his country.

He was saying that IF showing warcrimes that your country was committing WAS disgracing your country, THEN he would. The whole point being that it isn't.

You do understand that his argument is that such a thing is NOT disgracing your country? Geez, for as much as BB talks about the constitution I would think we could put aside the notion that he's "anti-America"

 

[Grahambo]

He was saying that IF showing warcrimes that your country was committing WAS disgracing your country, THEN he would. The whole point being that it isn't.

You do understand that his argument is that such a thing is NOT disgracing your country? Geez, for as much as BB talks about the constitution I would think we could put aside the notion that he's "anti-America"

I know what he said but under no circumstance should you ever disgrace your country or say that you would. I never called him anti-America either. I don't subscribe to the notion that everyone deserves an opinion.

He is a city planner and probably is a good one as he has spoken intelligently on the topic before but this is an area that he only knows through videos and articles online.

Some of us here have real life intelligence experience. You don't see us discussing city planning. See my drift?

 

[greyhammer90]

And why do you think that is? Because Homeland Security, the NSA, the CIA and our armed forces do their job well. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't agree with crimes against humanity, but he clearly broke the law and was sentenced accordingly.

Yes, we'd all be dead if not for gitmo and our air strikes on civilians.

People need to realize that America can only be destroyed one way, and that's not through nukes.

 

[greyhammer90]

I know what he said but under no circumstance should you ever disgrace your country or say that you would. I never called him anti-America either.

NEVER?

Tommorrow Obama says that muslims should be sent to camps without question for our own protection, and to argue with him is to disgrace the country.

 

[Grahambo]

NEVER?

Tommorrow Obama says that muslims should be sent to camps without question for our own protection, and to argue with him is to disgrace the country.

I get your devil's advocate role GH but I'm also not going to debate hypotheticals.

My background, which I've shared with a select few, allows me the up close and personal understanding of the ramifications of the actions of Manning and Snowden.

 

[TheRealLynch51]

Yes, we'd all be dead if not for gitmo and our air strikes on civilians.

People need to realize that America can only be destroyed one way, and that's not through nukes.

Way to take my point to the utmost extent. Gitmo has helped to save some of our citizens lives. Let's put it this way, the vast majority of people in Gitmo deserve to be there and if they hadn't associated with people they shouldn't of, they would be free to do whatever they please. And yes, civilian air strikes are terrible and I do not condone them. But you really think releasing documents is going to stop that? I don't think so.

 

[greyhammer90]

He is a city planner and probably is a good one as he has spoken intelligently on the topic before but this is an area that he only knows through videos and articles online.

Some of us here have real life intelligence experience. You don't see us discussing city planning. See my drift?

I suppose we should just be quiet and accept what ever the government decides to do then. That would be the most "American" thing we could do. Let the leaders lead, and the military do whatever it needs to for our protection, and we'll just sit here and trust that they know better. And if a few constitutional rights get washed away who could say that it wasn't a fair price to pay? I mean, I'm not doing anything wrong! So it probably won't even affect me! What could be more important than protecting my life, or the lives of American citizens?

Scary sh*t.

 

[ShawneeIrish]

I know what he said but under no circumstance should you ever disgrace your country or say that you would. I never called him anti-America either. I don't subscribe to the notion that everyone deserves an opinion.

He is a city planner and probably is a good one as he has spoken intelligently on the topic before but this is an area that he only knows through videos and articles online.

Some of us here have real life intelligence experience. You don't see us discussing city planning. See my drift?

This is about as dangerous of an idea as one could have. Only the military and security analysts know reality so do not speak or think, just turn over all responsibility to them.

 

[ShawneeIrish]

I don't think you have a clue what we're up against. The Red Scare has been replaced by the Muslim Scare. You're more likely to die of you refrigerator falling on you than a terrorist attack. And for the true irony of the situation: our actions in the middle east are only creating more enemies. People were absolutely outraged when those kids died in the kindergarten shooting in Connecticut, that's how many kids die annually in Pakistan from our drones.

For all you folks pleading to make sure national security is a priority, you should start criticizing our bull-in-a-China-shop policies.

This. The War on Terror is a much greater threat to America, the Constitution, and civilization than international terrorism itself.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

No, that's why I deleted that part of his comment. I have no doubt about the second half of his statement.

The world is full of inexperienced critics who think they know better.

It certainly is, Bob!

(Now that was funny as hell!)

 

[Buster Bluth]

LOL. The guy who allows himself the choice of which laws to obey and which to follow.

Btw-# was aimed at Manning/Snowden, not you BB.

An unjust law is no law at all. I wouldn't have followed prohibition, I wouldn't have obeyed the myriad runaway slave laws, I wouldn't have shut up about things like the Tuskegee Experiments, etc.

As for calling Manning/Snowden self-entitled, it's totally off-base for reasons that should be obvious. It starts with a C and ends with an onstitution. But but but the government said it was good! The lawyers checked it out! ...but, umm, the Supreme Court can't rule on something that isn't tried in court. So saying a program is legal/constitutional is silly because it has to be tried in court and can't be tried in court until it's... wait for it... made public.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Says the guy who claimed he would disgrace his country.

You know how much regard I have for you personally. There is no person I have any greater regard for(on IE). I have never criticize a single word or yours or action.

You perpetuated this untruth with your post. I just can't see Buster as anyone but to be proud of. I think he is intelligent and well spoken. In fact, as an Alex Keaton, lifelong Young Republican, I am surprised at his opinion on this, but certainly not shocked. You and I don't have the right to judge, in a convoluted way that is what we fought for. And calling Buster names isn't going to make your case any better, quicker or more honorably.