BVG Fired

[greyhammer90]

Awesome quote from an awesome movie that was rendered completely hollow when the idiots at Warner Brothers decided that Bruce Wayne could have somehow survived a nuclear explosion at the end of Dark Knight Rises. [Frick] you, Christopher Nolan, [frick] you. Of all the idiot mistakes in that movie, Bruce not dying at the end has to be the worst.

I don't really see how that quote was rendered hollow. The quote came from a different movie than Rises that didn't have many "themes" in common from what I remember. The quote was attributed to Harvey who lived too long but was covered up so that it would look like he died a hero and Batman who started off the movie a celebrated hero, beat his nemesis, but was then seen as the villain. Even if you wanted to portray that quote as some sort overarching statement that should be applied to Batman throughout the trilogy (which I think is a stretch), you could make the argument that Batman did die, Wayne just didn't. Nolan made it pretty clear throughout the series that Wayne considered himself Batman with his normal life being the mask. When the bomb went off, Batman died. Wayne didn't even need the mask of a playboy to hide himself anymore, he finally became normal Bruce Wayne.

But Rises did such a fat c*ck. Terrible movie.

 

[Irish#1]

Awesome quote from an awesome movie that was rendered completely hollow when the idiots at Warner Brothers decided that Bruce Wayne could have somehow survived a nuclear explosion at the end of Dark Knight Rises. [Frick] you, Christopher Nolan, [frick] you. Of all the idiot mistakes in that movie, Bruce not dying at the end has to be the worst.

Oh the irony! LOL

 

[Black Irish]

Fire Christopher Nolan!

 

[RDU Irish]

You think BK could spare a four star 300 pounder for the depleted d-line to help clog the middle?

 

[RDU Irish]

And we sit on 3 - three star defensive linemen for 2015 commitments. Are we even in the running for any top tier talent? Lynch, Tuitt, Nix were all high 4 star folks, it showed on the field. You need these guys stacked at least two deep to deal with injuries, attrition and fatigue.

Or are we going to focus on "specialists" going forward? We then need even more bodies since most of them are only good at one or two of the five or six things we need from a position.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

And we sit on 3 - three star defensive linemen for 2015 commitments. Are we even in the running for any top tier talent? Lynch, Tuitt, Nix were all high 4 star folks, it showed on the field. You need these guys stacked at least two deep to deal with injuries, attrition and fatigue.

Or are we going to focus on "specialists" going forward? We then need even more bodies since most of them are only good at one or two of the five or six things we need from a position.

DL recruiting:

2010 (5Y): Nix (left for NFL...can't blame him though)...leaving only Utupo

2011: Carrico (medical), Lynch (transferred), Springmann (medical), Tuitt (early to NFL), I. Williams (suspended), Hounshell (injuries, medical?)...leaving only Rabasa

2012: Okwara (played LB last two years), Day, J. Jones

2013: Vanderdoes (no explanation needed)...leaving Rochelle, Matuska, and Dickerson (preferred walk-on)

That's 7 guys over 4 years, only a few of which have contributed at a high-quality level, consistently. All the rest are true freshmen. Pretty self-explanatory why our DL is as bad as they are.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

The DL isn't preventing the OL from getting to the second level so our LBs can make plays. And the safeties are playing horribly. Scheme, youth, depth, bad luck...you name it, it's a problem. The only real bright side has been corner play and even that could've been better with KVR and a healthier Riggs.

 

[koonja]

Chalk me up as one who thinks the DL recruiting has been underwhelming the last couple of years. The defense starts up front. Can't load up on 3-stars and pray to be MSU (We don't have the S/C for that). Gotta close on more elite or close to elite talent IMO.

 

[ozzman]

BVG needs to shave his chin and go back to a stache. That would solve all of the world's problems, not only ND's defensive depth and age issues.

 

[IrishLax]

DL recruiting:

2010 (5Y): Nix (left for NFL...can't blame him though)...leaving only Utupo

2011: Carrico (medical), Lynch (transferred), Springmann (medical), Tuitt (early to NFL), I. Williams (suspended), Hounshell (injuries, medical?)...leaving only Rabasa

2012: Okwara (played LB last two years), Day, J. Jones

2013: Vanderdoes (no explanation needed)...leaving only Rochelle, Matuska, and Dickerson (preferred walk-on)

That's 5 guys over 4 years, 2 of which haven't contributed at any elite level. All the rest are true freshmen. Pretty self-explanatory why our DL is as bad as they are.

Yup. And you can do something similar for linebacker.

Just crappy recruiting... and the sad thing is, how is it getting any better this year? Three decent big bodies, one pass rusher who is years away from being able to make an impact. Our entire trump card that worked in 2012 no longer exists at all.

 

[wizards8507]

Yup. And you can do something similar for linebacker.

Just crappy recruiting... and the sad thing is, how is it getting any better this year? Three decent big bodies, one pass rusher who is years away from being able to make an impact. Our entire trump card that worked in 2012 no longer exists at all.

Recruiting is probably the thing I follow the least around here. Are we swinging and missing on big time recruits, or do we not even have a sufficiently robust target list?

 

[T Town Tommy]

Yup. And you can do something similar for linebacker.

Just crappy recruiting... and the sad thing is, how is it getting any better this year? Three decent big bodies, one pass rusher who is years away from being able to make an impact. Our entire trump card that worked in 2012 no longer exists at all.

I think this is the one thing that will either take BK to that magic land of 10 win seasons and consistently pushing for a playoff spot or staying down in the 8.5 win range. Winning, recruiting, and developing players go together. I would agree that it appears right now that the momentum from 2012 may have been lost a bit - even though ND had a couple of top 10 classes. Maybe a bit unfair right now to grade them out but I do know BK and crew must do better if they want to climb higher in wins. A strong finish on NSD would help the cause.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Yup. And you can do something similar for linebacker.

Just crappy recruiting... and the sad thing is, how is it getting any better this year? Three decent big bodies, one pass rusher who is years away from being able to make an impact. Our entire trump card that worked in 2012 no longer exists at all.

*I had to edit that post so your quote isn't exact.

But it doesn't change anything. The years in which the staff did pretty well with recruiting, they got hammered by deflections and/or injuries.

You had to accept the overload at DL in 2011. That could've been an amazing class had they all panned out/stuck around. Imagine all those guys as seniors this year on this squad...

But then the staff backed off DL recruiting it seemed until last year, they overloaded again. Since 2011's class aren't there to provide leadership, seniority, veteran play, etc...there's no cushion for the underclassmen. It's a fuqing joke. They couldn't have predicted the injuries but they knew from day one that Lynch was 1) a headcase and flight risk and 2) risk for early departure to NFL. They also knew Tuitt was a risk for early departure. Yet they didn't recruit to replace those guys. Two true DL in 2012 and then 4 in 2013 that would've helped but one never enrolled and another is a walk-on. That's bad position management, imo.

I can't remember the ideal number for the DL position group, but you'd think the staff would lock down four very good prospects, perhaps local midwest kids to avoid flight risk, and then shoot for the moon on one elite pass rusher from wherever. You absolutely cannot afford to have your OL/DL be thin at depth and low on the talent scale if you want to be an elite program.

 

[Luckylucci]

I totally understand the frustration with how some of those missed cycles are killing us right now but I'm happy with front seven recruiting the last two years provided we keep the guys we have now. The freshman class will be much better than most expect and we're saving 1 year for Williams, Hayes, and Bonner. This class while it isn't star studded will add depth to last years class. It absolutely changes nothing right now, I agree, but the future is brighter than the present.

 

[GowerND11]

I had such high hopes for Springman this year to bring energy and great 2 deep depth... Sucks he had to medical. Love seeing him on the sideline though helping out where he can. He really would help.

We need to hit DL recruiting like OL recruiting. Get all the big men in every year.

 

[Guest]

I think that the whole coaching staff has a little bit of 'paralysis by analysis'. Why BVG continues to play games with other teams is beyond me. Just chill for a minute and see how the game flows. Same goes for Kelly. I think thats one of the reasons are big recruits are under performing because they are locked into a "scheme". Just play f'ing football. If the running game is working run it. if the blitz is working blitz. But this mind set of "this is what we do, im not changing" blows my mind.

Bingo. Feel the same way. You have to be flexible to your personnel and your opponent's strategy as well.

 

[RDU Irish]

DL recruiting:

2010 (5Y): Nix (left for NFL...can't blame him though)...leaving only Utupo

2011: Carrico (medical), Lynch (transferred), Springmann (medical), Tuitt (early to NFL), I. Williams (suspended), Hounshell (injuries, medical?)...leaving only Rabasa

2012: Okwara (played LB last two years), Day, J. Jones

2013: Vanderdoes (no explanation needed)...leaving Rochelle, Matuska, and Dickerson (preferred walk-on)

That's 7 guys over 4 years, only a few of which have contributed at a high-quality level, consistently. All the rest are true freshmen. Pretty self-explanatory why our DL is as bad as they are.

Excellent break down. Consider how effective Nix was his first two years (redshirt and role player). Like O-line, these boys need redshirts so we are fielding a lot of 20-22 year olds, not 18-19 year olds (or 16 year olds in Okwara's case).

2011 was a phenomenal haul, followed by a nice supplemental group. Jones and Day have shown NFL potential from the start. I would place Rochelle from the 2013 class in the same trajectory. Frosh are stacked though, nice group just young.

With the losses from 2011 known most of the year and the obvious "flight risk" of Day leaving for the NFL early, we know we are going to be just as young next year. The staff did what they could and picked up a ton of DL in 2014. I mean 8 DL in one class is a ton and they quality plus quantity. They addressed the need.

Trumbetti
Hayes
Cage
Hill
Bonner
Williams
Blankenship
Mokwuah

My problem is the inability to make a decent run at any top DL talent for 2015. I'm talking guys that can make an immediate impact and play some quality snaps day one. How would we rank the 2015 commits vs the 2014 commits, who stands to play as a frosh. Preferably in a "can't keep him off the field" reason like Sheldon Day. I'm not seeing it.

 

[Guest]

Excellent break down. Consider how effective Nix was his first two years (redshirt and role player). Like O-line, these boys need redshirts so we are fielding a lot of 20-22 year olds, not 18-19 year olds (or 16 year olds in Okwara's case).

2011 was a phenomenal haul, followed by a nice supplemental group. Jones and Day have shown NFL potential from the start. I would place Rochelle from the 2013 class in the same trajectory. Frosh are stacked though, nice group just young.

With the losses from 2011 known most of the year and the obvious "flight risk" of Day leaving for the NFL early, we know we are going to be just as young next year. The staff did what they could and picked up a ton of DL in 2014. I mean 8 DL in one class is a ton and they quality plus quantity. They addressed the need.

Trumbetti
Hayes
Cage
Hill
Bonner
Williams
Blankenship
Mokwuah

My problem is the inability to make a decent run at any top DL talent for 2015. I'm talking guys that can make an immediate impact and play some quality snaps day one. How would we rank the 2015 commits vs the 2014 commits, who stands to play as a frosh. Preferably in a "can't keep him off the field" reason like Sheldon Day. I'm not seeing it.

Good summary. The 3 star recruits we have now are probably fillers and will be back end rotation guys, unless one jumps up. Even though we got a haul last year, it would make sense to recruit at least ONE premium DL every year, preferably two (1 DT and 1 DE) if possible.

 

[RDU Irish]

I would hope we could find one "premium"/impact DL every single year, which means being in the running for three of them at least. Who are we even in the running for this year in that respect? Gustin maybe?

 

[Luckylucci]

Excellent break down. Consider how effective Nix was his first two years (redshirt and role player). Like O-line, these boys need redshirts so we are fielding a lot of 20-22 year olds, not 18-19 year olds (or 16 year olds in Okwara's case).

2011 was a phenomenal haul, followed by a nice supplemental group. Jones and Day have shown NFL potential from the start. I would place Rochelle from the 2013 class in the same trajectory. Frosh are stacked though, nice group just young.

With the losses from 2011 known most of the year and the obvious "flight risk" of Day leaving for the NFL early, we know we are going to be just as young next year. The staff did what they could and picked up a ton of DL in 2014. I mean 8 DL in one class is a ton and they quality plus quantity. They addressed the need.

Trumbetti
Hayes
Cage
Hill
Bonner
Williams
Blankenship
Mokwuah

My problem is the inability to make a decent run at any top DL talent for 2015. I'm talking guys that can make an immediate impact and play some quality snaps day one. How would we rank the 2015 commits vs the 2014 commits, who stands to play as a frosh. Preferably in a "can't keep him off the field" reason like Sheldon Day. I'm not seeing it.

I don't see any of the 2015 DL class playing of much significance next year. Provided everybody is healthy our depth next year looks pretty positive to me. With that said Loy has stated that the staff is really high on Micah Dew Treadway. I just don't see him playing over Hayes or Bonner at DT or Hill, Williams, Trumbetti, Blankenship at DE.

Let me add that I really like Elijah Taylor long term at NT but I don't see him getting PT over Jones or Cage next year.

 

[IrishLax]

Recruiting is probably the thing I follow the least around here. Are we swinging and missing on big time recruits, or do we not even have a sufficiently robust target list?

It's a combination of everything.

With Diaco, he was just moronic on how he limited his net and never had contingency plans. In '12, he rather famously passed on Joe Bolden (who isn't great, but would certainly be a superior option at MIKE right now) because he was "too short" after seeing him in person... and actually signed zero linebackers, despite only signing 1 ILB in '11.

The following might have some inaccuracies, but I think it is generally accurate...

In '11, he offered Rob Hankins, Trey DePriest, Anthony Wallace, and Jarrett Grace at ILB. The only one we even sniffed a chance with was Grace. Again, incredibly small net.

The only linebackers with potential play inside even offered and actually pursued by Diaco in '12 were James Ross (always Michigan lock) and Noor Davis (who we had a good shot at but were beat out). Zero signees, two legitimate offers.

In '13, he realized that he actually needed more than 1 ILB in 2 years to play a system that requires TWO ILBs BE ON THE FIELD AT ALL TIMES. So he went out and signed Deeb up early, and then got a verbal commitment from Anzalone. He didn't recruit Anzalone well (or have contingency plans), but was probably going to lose him to Florida no matter what he did. Only signed Deeb. Legitimately pursued about a dozen decent prospects though including some guys who could maybe play either ILB or OLB. Too little too late though and only snagged 1 guy who was a real ILB.

It's just beyond comical. And after the windfall of DL recruits in '11, we basically had similar sh*t happen in line recruiting over '12 and '13... although that was more of a case of misses than just not even trying for guys.

On the heels of the '11 class, we were understandably selective on the DL in '12. Got two really good DTs in Jones and Day. Did not even really attempt to sign an elite pass rusher, did grab developmental Romeo Okwara. In '13, grabbed Matuska/Rochelle and Vanderdoes and heavily pursued a number of other DLs. The crux of the issue on the DL is that our '11 guys all got hurt or left early... and Vanderdoes backed out of his LOI... and we never really went after 4-3 ends. If you kept everyone healthy and in school, you could've potentially had a DL this year of Lynch/Tuitt/Ishaq Williams at end and Day/Vanderdoes/Jones at DT. That's championship caliber. Instead, we're using... I don't even fucking know what we're using this week.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

My problem is the inability to make a decent run at any top DL talent for 2015. I'm talking guys that can make an immediate impact and play some quality snaps day one. How would we rank the 2015 commits vs the 2014 commits, who stands to play as a frosh. Preferably in a "can't keep him off the field" reason like Sheldon Day. I'm not seeing it.

I'm open to correction on this, but it seems like our academic requirements rule out more elite DL than any other position, and the few that could qualify are extremely difficult to pull out of CA, TX, FL or the deep south. The vast majority of our current DL have come from the Midwest, Northeast and Mid-Atlantic, but those regions just don't produce a lot of elite DL.

2011 was an excellent haul, but it's a pretty clear outlier looking back. A deep and talented DL is arguably the biggest difference between ND and the cream of the SEC, and I'm not sure how we can realistically close that gap.

 

[Guest]

I'm open to correction on this, but it seems like our academic requirements rule out more elite DL than any other position, and the few that could qualify are extremely difficult to pull out of CA, TX, FL or the deep south. The vast majority of our current DL have come from the Midwest, Northeast and Mid-Atlantic, but those regions just don't produce a lot of elite DL.

2011 was an excellent haul, but it's a pretty clear outlier looking back. A deep and talented DL is arguably the biggest difference between ND and the cream of the SEC, and I'm not sure how we can realistically close that gap.

Depth and rotations, find guys with special singular abilities and scheme the hell out of the defense to take advantage of them. There are other teams that don't recruit as well as us but they usually have pretty good defensive teams, such as MSU. Why can't we do that?

 

[koonja]

Depth and rotations, find guys with special singular abilities and scheme the hell out of the defense to take advantage of them. There are other teams that don't recruit as well as us but they usually have pretty good defensive teams, such as MSU. Why can't we do that?

Because this is our S/C coach:

 

[PANDFAN]

Notre Dame's defensive struggles can be traced back to poor defensive recruiting - One Foot Down

 

[woolybug25]

Notre Dame's defensive struggles can be traced back to poor defensive recruiting - One Foot Down

Did someone from IE pen this?

 

[Irish YJ]

Did someone from IE pen this?

Yep, they could have copy/pasted have of the content directly from IE...
Just more ammo pointing back to the hair.

Liking the current CB and LB haul, but we have to do better at S and DE/DT.

 

[woolybug25]

Yep, they could have copy/pasted have of the content directly from IE...
Just more ammo pointing back to the hair.

Liking the current CB and LB haul, but we have to do better at S and DE/DT.

I'll be sensitive then.

Didn't like the article. Not because I necessarily disagreed with it, as you all know, I agree with the Schutt part. But the rest is almost an opinion piece relating poor attrition (Lynch, Frozen 5, etc) to poor recruiting. They are separate in my mind. The article read like an IE post rather than an actual article.

This is all surprising, as I usually love the OFD articles.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, etc all have at least a couple of DL each year worth going after. Local kids are always less likely to bail for a school across the country. I don't see why they don't lock down three local kids and then shoot for the moon on a couple elite kids from the South, TX, or CA. You won't have depth issues (unless something bizarre happens) and it's probably a safe bet that every couple of years ND will land a pretty good-to-elite DL. ND will never load up on numerous elite DL every single year. But they still need bodies to account for natural attrition, etc.

 

[Guest]

The recruiting issues seem to stem from lack of proper management. Maybe Kelly has not been assertive enough on the defensive side of the ball, and allowed his coordinators too much final say in the defensive recruitment of each position.

If Kelly does not want to oversee this (or doesn't trust his defensive acumen enough to manage the defensive recruitment as the HC), then he can appoint a proxy.

Alford has the role of Recruiting Coordinator, but does that mean he just coordinates the players that are brought into the system by the other coaches, or that he is keeping a 5 year succession plan at each position and actively manages depth issues in a planned manner.

There is a difference between reacting to recruiting issues, and establishing a baseline and managing to that baseline year over year. If Alford is not doing this or is not living up to his title, that is Kelly's fault. He may not manage the area but he does manage his coaches and their responsibilities. Ultimately, everything having to do with ND football falls on his shoulders.