"But every school does it!"

[MNIrishman]

Hey guys,

I just had a fight (verbal argument only, I promise) with a Bama fan and a group of OSU fans insisting upon the notion that "every school does it," referring to the idea that every school cheats the same way. I know for a fact that ND doesn't do anything like what the SEC does, but how do you refute the allegation? I pointed out that we expelled our star qb and have repeatedly shot the basketball team in the foot. I also pointed out that South Bend is not Tuscaloosa/Columbus and we don't have dealerships just aching to give out Escalades to star players. How do you demonstrate that some schools just do things differently? Does anyone have compelling evidence that we ARE just like the SEC schools, and I am wrong?

 

[T Town Tommy]

Hey guys,

I just had a fight (verbal argument only, I promise) with a Bama fan and a group of OSU fans insisting upon the notion that "every school does it," referring to the idea that every school cheats the same way. I know for a fact that ND doesn't do anything like what the SEC does, but how do you refute the allegation? I pointed out that we expelled our star qb and have repeatedly shot the basketball team in the foot. I also pointed out that South Bend is not Tuscaloosa/Columbus and we don't have dealerships just aching to give out Escalades to star players. How do you demonstrate that some schools just do things differently? Does anyone have compelling evidence that we ARE just like the SEC schools, and I am wrong?

Who really cares what a fan thinks? My advice is to tell the guy to kiss your ass and then walk away.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Every program does it. It's just some toe the line or push the rules, and some run right past them and say catch me if you can.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

I'm with T Town. iI they wan't to take that position, let it be. It's never good to get into an argument over whether or not your school is inherently better than another.

You wouldn't get into a fight with someone telling them you are just inherently better because it's too offensive.

Root for Notre Dame. Cheer for the football team. Argue over whose team is better because that is where they compete, the rest of the competition was over before it started and we needn't repeatedly point that out.

It's a defense mechanism to resort to "we do things better" because we haven't been a very good football team for so long. Having Kelly put us back on track to winning seasons, it's a matter of time before we can simply argue football and that's what I'm most excited about!

 

[TheTurningPoint]

I think its pretty impossible to run a clean program based on all the NCAA regulations. They have some ridiculous violations in place and its up to hard working people, like Notre Dame's Jen Vining Smith, to make sure everyone is educated from the staff down to the hosts. Notre Dame does a great job of this, but as you saw with Eifert tweeting Jaylon a few years ago, some stuff falls through.

But, you are correct. Notre Dame doesnt offer apartments, houses, etc to prospective student athletes.

 

[Black Irish]

The best solution is to say "You know what else Notre Dame does better? This!" Then hit the guy with a work of art right hook that would make Rocky himself proud. Then say something in Latin to let everyone know how educated you are right before you swagger off into the sunset.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

The best solution is to say "You know what else Notre Dame does better? This!" Then hit the guy with a work of art right hook that would make Rocky himself proud. Then say something in Latin to let everyone know how educated you are right before you swagger off into the sunset.

L.O.L.

Well done Black Irish, well done.

 

[IrishLax]

There are three types of schools... those that actively cheat as an institution (see: UNC now, SMU back in the day, Oregon, etc.), those that turn a blind eye to violations that they know are occurring (most schools in the NCAA), and those that attempt to run the cleanest program they can but still inevitably miss violations here and there (Stanford, Notre Dame, etc.).

There is no school that is completely "clean." But you'll notice there is a difference between schools that have dozens of kids posting pictures of giant stacks of cash to Instagram or that have poor kids mysteriously parking $200k cars in front of $100k homes and a place like Stanford that has absolutely none of that.

I don't doubt there are violations at ND, but I do know ND tries like hell to eliminate them because they are deathly afraid of that story getting written.

 

[Henges24]

There are three types of schools... those that actively cheat as an institution (see: UNC now, SMU back in the day, Oregon, etc.), those that turn a blind eye to violations that they know are occurring (most schools in the NCAA), and those that attempt to run the cleanest program they can but still inevitably miss violations here and there (Stanford, Notre Dame, etc.).

There is no school that is completely "clean." But you'll notice there is a difference between schools that have dozens of kids posting pictures of giant stacks of cash to Instagram or that have poor kids mysteriously parking $200k cars in front of $100k homes and a place like Stanford that has absolutely none of that.

I don't doubt there are violations at ND, but I do know ND tries like hell to eliminate them because they are deathly afraid of that story getting written.

No school gets written about more than ND. Even if the slightest thing happens, it's up on ESPN. Did the Mahone situation get to TV on ESPN? If it did, that just goes to show how ESPN and others are out to shoot down ND. A kid that has played maybe 10 snaps in his career made headlines just because he plays for ND.

Now I don't know if 'everyone is actually out to get ND' but that's just how I've always felt. Maybe it's be growing up in Michigan and being surrounded by MSU and UofM fans or maybe because I only pay attention to ND news? Who knows.

 

[Sharknado21]

I know that is has been as issue on some sports shows, but Glasgow getting convicted for his issues hasnt been all over the news as much as I suspected...

 

[wizards8507]

Know what "every school does"?

Installs Field Turf and sticks their logo on the 50.

 

[BobD]

Next time you get into a tense situation like that just yell out "Yeah but we have the best looking cheerleaders!!"

When everyone gets done laughing, the situation will be much more relaxed and friendly.

 

[GoldenDomer]

 

[MNIrishman]

Thanks guys. I guess it just kind of got to me since I knew so many athletes that were completely clean as far as I know and that the University did work really hard to limit and prevent violations. It's not so much the idea that ND is better, but the implied acceptance of that behavior that bothers me. I cheer for OSU sometimes, but that enthusiasm is checked by a knowledge of what Columbus is like. I know that the Buckeyes can get away with anything and that everyone is ok with that. Sports at the college level are supposed to have a purpose in building character and lessons in leadership. The willing sacrifice of that role is in my opinion the true cost of the 'Everyone does it' attitude.

 

[Irish#1]

Just tell them ND's graduation rate and ask them what it is for Bama?

 

[Ndaccountant]

Thanks guys. I guess it just kind of got to me since I knew so many athletes that were completely clean as far as I know and that the University did work really hard to limit and prevent violations. It's not so much the idea that ND is better, but the implied acceptance of that behavior that bothers me. I cheer for OSU sometimes, but that enthusiasm is checked by a knowledge of what Columbus is like. I know that the Buckeyes can get away with anything and that everyone is ok with that. Sports at the college level are supposed to have a purpose in building character and lessons in leadership. The willing sacrifice of that role is in my opinion the true cost of the 'Everyone does it' attitude.

You lost me here.....

 

[IrishLax]

The other thing that no one is talking about is that the proliferation of cheating is 90% on Mark Emmert being an SEC cuntbag. Sure, he's from Washington but his time at LSU cemented just how accepting he is of cheating. In the past, schools cheated but those that did knew if they got caught they were toast.

The moment Cam Newton got a free pass and Miami got nothing more than a little scolding was when it became open season. There is more open, brazen cheating now than ever before and the NCAA is doing NOTHING about it. Yahoo repeatedly runs stories with loads of evidence of illicit benefits, not to mention all of the circumstantial evidence on Twitter. And the NCAA usually declines to even investigate, and when they do they do very little to actually get to the bottom of anything and deal out punishment.

DJ Fluker tweeted that he was getting paid. Then retracted it with some bullshit "I was hacked" when he CLEARLY wasn't how. How does an admission of guilt not get any follow up investigation from the NCAA? How was it acceptable for Alabama to conclude their investigation with "oh yeah, he was hacked..." when there was literally no proof of that (despite them promising proof that was never presented)? Was it a surprise to anyone when months later Yahoo published a story with names/dates/evidence of illicit benefits to a plethora of SEC athletes including Fluker?

I don't blame people for being accepting of cheating when the NCAA itself is accepting of it. Mark Emmert is the worst thing to ever happen to amateur sports.

 

[Irish#1]

The other thing that no one is talking about is that the proliferation of cheating is 90% on Mark Emmert being an SEC cuntbag. Sure, he's from Washington but his time at LSU cemented just how accepting he is of cheating. In the past, schools cheated but those that did knew if they got caught they were toast.

The moment Cam Newton got a free pass and Miami got nothing more than a little scolding was when it became open season. There is more open, brazen cheating now than ever before and the NCAA is doing NOTHING about it. Yahoo repeatedly runs stories with loads of evidence of illicit benefits, not to mention all of the circumstantial evidence on Twitter. And the NCAA usually declines to even investigate, and when they do they do very little to actually get to the bottom of anything and deal out punishment.

DJ Fluker tweeted that he was getting paid. Then retracted it with some bullshit "I was hacked" when he CLEARLY wasn't how. How does an admission of guilt not get any follow up investigation from the NCAA? How was it acceptable for Alabama to conclude their investigation with "oh yeah, he was hacked..." when there was literally no proof of that (despite them promising proof that was never presented)? Was it a surprise to anyone when months later Yahoo published a story with names/dates/evidence of illicit benefits to a plethora of SEC athletes including Fluker?

I don't blame people for being accepting of cheating when the NCAA itself is accepting of it. Mark Emmert is the worst thing to ever happen to amateur sports.

So tell us Lax, what's your real opinion of Emmert? lol

 

[MNIrishman]

You lost me here.....

Sorry, Columbus born and raised. Took classes there in high school. Worked there one summer. My dad and aunts and uncles and most of my friends and most of their parents are alumni. Just what I was born into. Still criticize it.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I just had a fight (verbal argument only, I promise) with a Bama fan and a group of OSU fans insisting upon the notion that "every school does it," referring to the idea that every school cheats the same way. I know for a fact that ND doesn't do anything like what the SEC does, but how do you refute the allegation?

First, start by pointing to some easily verified objective facts:

• ND doesn't oversign;
• ND doesn't accept JuCos; and
• ND's doesn't accept students who barely pass the NCAA minimums.

Why don't we do those things? For purely moral reasons. ND believes it has a duty to provide every one of its student athletes-- including football players-- with an excellent education. So if Admissions doesn't think a recruit can cut it academically at ND, that recruit won't be enrolling. Period. It's not an accident that ND regularly leads the nation in GSR and other similar metrics.

So I have a hard time believing that ND players are on the take, or that we're engaged in academic fraud to keep our kids eligible*, when ND refuses to engage in many less morally questionable and widespread practices that would instantly produce more tangible competitive benefits.

But do keep in mind that they're asking you to prove a negative, which is always a very difficult (if not impossible) task. And realize that people are naturally disposed to project their vices onto others as a form of moral justification.

*Golson's suspension alone definitively refutes that claim

 

[ThePiombino]

There are three types of schools... those that actively cheat as an institution (see: UNC now, SMU back in the day, Oregon, etc.), those that turn a blind eye to violations that they know are occurring (most schools in the NCAA), and those that attempt to run the cleanest program they can but still inevitably miss violations here and there (Stanford, Notre Dame, etc.).

There is no school that is completely "clean." But you'll notice there is a difference between schools that have dozens of kids posting pictures of giant stacks of cash to Instagram or that have poor kids mysteriously parking $200k cars in front of $100k homes and a place like Stanford that has absolutely none of that.

I don't doubt there are violations at ND, but I do know ND tries like hell to eliminate them because they are deathly afraid of that story getting written.

Isn't it widely thought that Stanford turns a blind eye to PED usage? Would they still be in the same grouping as ND and not that second group? Are are you considering PEDs a minor penalty in the grand scheme of things?

 

[stlnd01]

Isn't it widely thought that Stanford turns a blind eye to PED usage? Would they still be in the same grouping as ND and not that second group? Are are you considering PEDs a minor penalty in the grand scheme of things?

FWIW, I can't recall many instances of college football players being suspended or publicly disciplined for PED use. I'm sure there's some testing, but I have a hard time believing that PED use wouldn't be widespread. So I'd think most schools turn a blind eye, not just Stanford.

And, frankly, yes. Compared to academic fraud, paying players under the table, covering up sexual assaults and other crimes, etc. etc., I would consider looking the other way on PEDs to be a lesser offense, in the grand scheme of things. It doesn't undermine the integrity of the institution or let people get away with felonies.

P.S.
Ha. When looking up a story on the topic, the photo was of an ND-Stanford game (and Andrew Hendrix, of all people)
Report: College Football Steroid Use is Rampant and Little is Done to Stop It - Forbes

 

[vmgsf]

Tell them "Do just a little bit of research on why Everett Golson was suspended for the entire football season when the football team desperately needed him."

Then ask them "What penalty would Everett Golson have received at _____University or the University of _____?"

Case closed.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

I hate it when people justify their crappy actions based on what other people do. Working with teenagers, this is pretty much my biggest pet peeve.

 

[WaveDomer]

I agree with those who basically say, "Don't pay attention to those people," but I will say that it's kind of a rock and hard place situation. Unless you are in the AD on the Board or some heavy duty donor, there is pretty much zero you can do to sway a college football program. So if "School X" cheats, the average fan is left: not rooting anymore because they care about ethics, being realistic and rooting anyway, or trying to justify it with "every school does it." College sports is pretty unique because the playing field is un-level at almost every turn. Academics are different everywhere, money is different, locations, conferences, etc. etc.

 

[JTLA]

My personal favorite argument

My personal favorite argument

My favorite argument was near the end of the 2012 season when it was resoundingly concluded that Notre Dame had obviously eroded their admittance standards, allowed cheating, etc... etc... since now we could compete.

You can point to any example you want. There is no winning an argument with folks like this. It would be like trying to convince us that Michigan isn't a bunch of dirty dickbags.

 

[ulukinatme]

You really can't win in these arguments. I'm not saying we run a squeaky clean program. It's impossible to monitor 85 kids and walk ons 24/7. Even if the athletic dept. is doing all the right things, a few bad eggs can try to take advantage behind the scenes. Nevertheless, I'm confidant that our guys do a great job and are cleaner than almost all of the big time programs on the mountain right now.

I can tell you that you'll never convince them otherwise though. Theres not enough concrete information out there, and most programs only self report minor violations so you only find out who the real rule breakers are when shit hits the fan. They rarely self report big issues, they hope everything gets swept under the rug and never found. Case in point: Tats at OSU, academics at North Carolina, PSU sex scandal, Miami benefits, USC, etc. All that stuff would have never come to light if someone on the inside didn't tattle or if media never bothered to investigate rumors. I can't imagine any traditional powerhouse self reporting a serious academic violation of a starting QB though...especially one that just led his team to a spot in the NCG. When you consider OSU tried to avoid Tat-Gate (Would have been a much smaller punishment if they just reported it), you can at least draw a comparison that ND most likely wouldn't have swept Tat-Gate under the rug if they were in the same position.

Quite frankly, I wouldn't bother trying to debate with those guys though. I've found lately that when conversing with many OSU fans they can't seem to formulate a reply other than "lolScissorLifts." So, you know, they're infallible I guess and must have developed time travel as they're often found harkening back to the year 2010.

 

[Irishman77]

Not sure every fan base does this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=337SEmLIZx8

Or this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=swYSr32KvQ8

 

[ulukinatme]

Not sure every fan base does this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=337SEmLIZx8

Or this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=swYSr32KvQ8

The tea bagging I'd heard about, never watched the video though. That guy got 2 years in prison from what I heard.

That second video....

I mean, the dude was pretty good with the chucks I guess...but I'm...I just...I dunno. Such an odd response to the tea bagging video. "You tea bagged one of our friends while he was unconscious, so now I'm going to get angry and nun chuck a dart board while Rock and Roll plays in the background."