A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

[Whiskeyjack]

Finally Watched S5E8...

Finally Watched S5E8...

Dammit.

 

[ND NYC]

Dammit.

no doubt.
sh^t just got really real.
westeros about to get ice bucket challenged...and then some.

 

[Emcee77]

I feel like Lightbringer has to be a Macguffin. Having a hero ride to the rescue with a blazing sword just doesn't seem like it fits the narrative.

I am afraid that we are going to look back on a lot of things and say they were Macguffins, or red herrings. I just can't imagine that GRRM is going to tie all this stuff together in a way that makes more than half of the story necessary to its resolution.

Not that there is anything wrong with that, necessarily. It was really entertaining along the way.

 

[zelezo vlk]

So Y'all are saying that Lightbringer was in the suitcase?

 

[Emcee77]

So Y'all are saying that Lightbringer was in the suitcase?

lol nice.

 

[wizards8507]

I am afraid that we are going to look back on a lot of things and say they were Macguffins, or red herrings. I just can't imagine that GRRM is going to tie all this stuff together in a way that makes more than half of the story necessary to its resolution.

Not that there is anything wrong with that, necessarily. It was really entertaining along the way.

And that's the biggest problem I have watching the show. I'm fine with red herrings but I don't like when the show's omissions tell me which plot points they are.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Here's an interesting bit of tinfoil: Longclaw = Blackfyre?

 

[Anchorman]

And that's the biggest problem I have watching the show. I'm fine with red herrings but I don't like when the show's omissions tell me which plot points they are.

Don't disagree, but feel its a worthwhile sacrifice in the sense that its hard enough to keep all the storylines they are dealing with advancing. Adding everything would mean either a prohibitively long series or such shallow depth on the storylines that I feel it would detract even more.

 

[Huntr]

And that's the biggest problem I have watching the show. I'm fine with red herrings but I don't like when the show's omissions tell me which plot points they are.

Conversely, its what I like about the show. I love Martin's world and "The Story" but I think the whole thing would have benefitted from an editor that was worth a shit. So much included in the main books could have been told in novellas or collections that fill out the legendarium and made the telling of the tale more crisp. JMO, tho.

 

[ND NYC]

Conversely, its what I like about the show. I love Martin's world and "The Story" but I think the whole thing would have benefitted from an editor that was worth a shit. So much included in the main books could have been told in novellas or collections that fill out the legendarium and made the telling of the tale more crisp. JMO, tho.

agree.

Benoit and Weiss are "the editors" GRRM never had.

 

[IrishLion]

Just watched it.

Oh boy was that a treat. Night's King with the slow "Come At Me Bro" hand-raise/wight-creation was all the proof you need to know that Jon Snow = The Series, IMO. They took great care in showing the representative of The Other squaring off with TPtwP in a moment that could be justified only by an Old Nan tale before bedtime.

Theory that won't be true, but I thought of in a half-joking way: Night's King is a warg (as are other Starks), and his dominion, rather than animals or trees, is corpses. They aren't mindless, shambling corpses unless he's not around. When he IS present to control them, aka Hardhome, they are blood-thirsty, ice-powered super-zombies.

This also supports the "Many-Faced God vs. Great Other" line of thought; Servants of the Old Gods (Many-Faced God) use the power of life for warging and farsight, whereas the Night's King has directly and oppositely perverted that power through using death for warging and far-sight. Literally, the Great Other.

 

[gkIrish]

Just watched it.

Oh boy was that a treat. Night's King with the slow "Come At Me Bro" hand-raise/wight-creation was all the proof you need to know that Jon Snow = The Series, IMO. They took great care in showing the representative of The Other squaring off with TPtwP in a moment that could be justified only by an Old Nan tale before bedtime.

Theory that won't be true, but I thought of in a half-joking way: Night's King is a warg (as are other Starks), and his dominion, rather than animals or trees, is corpses. They aren't mindless, shambling corpses unless he's not around. When he IS present to control them, aka Hardhome, they are blood-thirsty, ice-powered super-zombies.

This also supports the "Many-Faced God vs. Great Other" line of thought; Servants of the Old Gods (Many-Faced God) use the power of life for warging and farsight, whereas the Night's King has directly and oppositely perverted that power through using death for warging and far-sight. Literally, the Great Other.

 

[Emcee77]

Conversely, its what I like about the show. I love Martin's world and "The Story" but I think the whole thing would have benefitted from an editor that was worth a shit. So much included in the main books could have been told in novellas or collections that fill out the legendarium and made the telling of the tale more crisp. JMO, tho.

Right. I was just saying to someone yesterday that Game of Thrones might be the rare show/movie that might be better than the books. The show is nowhere near as rich as the books, obviously, but what it lacks in detail it makes up in focus and coherence.

And that's the biggest problem I have watching the show. I'm fine with red herrings but I don't like when the show's omissions tell me which plot points they are.

I still just don't get that. I don't think that the show's omissions have told us anything of any real significance about where Martin is going. I know I've already stated that opinion in this thread so I won't bother to rehash old posts. I'll just say I believe more strongly than ever, the more I read and watch and hear, that the show runners don't know that much about where Martin is going because Martin himself doesn't know with any great specificity, and, even if they do know what the full final significance of various of Martin's plotlines will be, the show runners have no problem going in a totally different direction, so we can't assume that we learn that much from watching the show.

 

[ND NYC]

I thought GRRM knew exactly where he is/was going (and has told Benoit and Weiss)....but it's just him taking forever to get there.

he made add a few wrinkles but im sure the endgame in his mind and the producers in the show "is known".

 

[Corry]

I thought GRRM knew exactly where he is/was going (and has told Benoit and Weiss)....but it's just him taking forever to get there.

he made add a few wrinkles but im sure the endgame in his mind and the producers in the show "is known".

It is, GRRM has stated many times, that while the show is the show, and the books are the books they are two stories heading to the same destinations.

I like most of you, the show lead me to the books. While I love the books, and often the show really lets me down. For me its show>books. If you would have asked me after Ep6 I probably would have went the other way.

 

[NDWorld247]

I'm sure this has been posted, but I started reading it recently and found it interesting.

Differences between books and TV series - Game of Thrones Wiki

I have no issue with the show. I love it and haven't been as critical of this season as others. Personally though, IMO books > show. I wish the books had been finished before the show came out. Waiting for #6 is killing me. If #6 doesn't come out before season 6, I'm going to be pissed. GRRM needs to hurry the fuck up.

But reading the link above, there are some differences between the show and books that I just don't understand why they changed. I'm not even talking about the big changes (changing characters, blending storylines, etc). It's the small stuff that just didn't need to be made. I would've liked to see the show mirror the books as much as possible. They are really small things that don't matter at all in the big picture, but it irks me.

 

[Emcee77]

I thought GRRM knew exactly where he is/was going (and has told Benoit and Weiss)....but it's just him taking forever to get there.

he made add a few wrinkles but im sure the endgame in his mind and the producers in the show "is known".

I just can't believe this. People who know exactly where they are going don't go off on wild tangents and take forever to get any work done.

GRRM's books honestly remind me of the written submissions our law-student externs give us (although way more entertaining). Often, writing that is sprawling and ever widening in scope is the hallmark of a writer who has fallen down the rabbit hole and is trying to dig his way out. I hope I'm wrong, but my experience teaches me otherwise.

Not to sound doom-and-gloom-y. I'm sure he'll pull it all together in the end. But I do not subscribe to the theory that he knows exactly where he is going with all this. He is trying to figure it out as he goes, which is why it's taking so long.

 

[Corry]

I just can't believe this. People who know exactly where they are going don't go off on wild tangents and take forever to get any work done.

GRRM's books honestly remind me of the written submissions our law-student externs give us (although way more entertaining). Often, writing that is sprawling and ever widening in scope is the hallmark of a writer who has fallen down the rabbit hole and is trying to dig his way out. I hope I'm wrong, but my experience teaches me otherwise.

Not to sound doom-and-gloom-y. I'm sure he'll pull it all together in the end. But I do not subscribe to the theory that he knows exactly where he is going with all this. He is trying to figure it out as he goes, which is why it's taking so long.

I think he knows where he is going like a guy who wants to hitch hike to LA from NYC knows where he is going. How he's going to get there is anyone's guess.

 

[IrishLax]

I just can't believe this. People who know exactly where they are going don't go off on wild tangents and take forever to get any work done.

GRRM's books honestly remind me of the written submissions our law-student externs give us (although way more entertaining). Often, writing that is sprawling and ever widening in scope is the hallmark of a writer who has fallen down the rabbit hole and is trying to dig his way out. I hope I'm wrong, but my experience teaches me otherwise.

Not to sound doom-and-gloom-y. I'm sure he'll pull it all together in the end. But I do not subscribe to the theory that he knows exactly where he is going with all this. He is trying to figure it out as he goes, which is why it's taking so long.

I think he stated he's always known the start point, the end, and everything that would happen through the plot of Storm of Swords. This makes sense, given that the writing was much more rapid for the first three books, and it's hard to conceive of something this intricate being written without knowing - at minimum - the final destination... even if you didn't quite know the roads to get there. It's these figurative "roads" that are the issue after Storm of Swords.

Some pertinent facts from Martin:
-He didn't start off with this necessarily being a 7 book thing. However, the story just kept building on itself and the page count got higher and higher and higher.
-In other countries, they print the books completely different. They're shorter with the chapters better organized. There is no "Clash of Kings"... there are three books that roughly span those chapters. Wrap your mind around that and you realize that the editing has really been subpar for the content... especially from #4 onward.
-He had to make multiple significant adjustments to 4 & 5 while writing them, including at least one total rewrite. Those books are a mess. Originally, he intended to make a significant time jump and age forward all the characters. Notice that pretty much nothing happens in the books besides chess pieces re-positioning on the board (or new ones being introduced).
-He has strongly considered making this an 8 book series.

I believe the show runners have generally done a fantastic job of condensing 4 & 5 into watchable seasons. I also believe HBO and Martin when they said years ago that they know how it all ends.

But it's also very clear that what Martin is doing in the books is fluid from here on out save for certain major plot details that are likely concrete. He probably knows exactly what will happen with Jon, exactly how Daenerys is coming to Westeros and when, etc. But everything in between the marquee events... all the supplemental character development and world building... is up for grabs.

 

[Emcee77]

I think he knows where he is going like a guy who wants to hitch hike to LA from NYC knows where he is going. How he's going to get there is anyone's guess.

Ha, yeah, I think that's good.

I also believe HBO and Martin when they said years ago that they know how it all ends.

But it's also very clear that what Martin is doing in the books is fluid from here on out save for certain major plot details that are likely concrete. He probably knows exactly what will happen with Jon, exactly how Daenerys is coming to Westeros and when, etc. But everything in between the marquee events... all the supplemental character development and world building... is up for grabs.

See, I think when he started out he may have THOUGHT he knew those things, exactly what would have happened with Jon and Daenerys, but he can't get there now, and if he gets desperate enough, he may change some aspects.

I really like Corry's analogy. GRRM started out in NY and he knew he had to get to LA. Maybe he knew, too, that he wanted to get to SF first and then hitchhike down the PCH to LA.

But maybe he gets to St. Louis and he just cannot find someone willing to pick him up going north or west, so he takes a ride going south, just to see where it leads, but always intending to come back north before heading west toward San Fran.

After a while, he ends up in El Paso and he figures, hey, I'm like due east of LA, southeast if anything. Why don't I just cut across the desert. Why was I so obsessed with getting to San Francisco anyway.

Basically, now that GRRM seems like he is struggling to figure out how to proceed, I don't know how much I trust what he or the show runners may have said about their intentions in 2011, when their statements may have been based on decisions GRRM made when he was in a more optimistic frame of mind.

The end result will likely be the same as when GRRM started out; but I think the "endgame" may be very different.

 

[IrishLax]

The end result will likely be the same as when GRRM started out; but I think the "endgame" may be very different.

That's possible, but I'd bet anything that whatever he told HBO on Day 1 is more or less how it's going to play out in the show. Does he stick to that plan for the books...?

I'm not nearly as sure.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

See, I think when he started out he may have THOUGHT he knew those things, exactly what would have happened with Jon and Daenerys, but he can't get there now, and if he gets desperate enough, he may change some aspects.

With all the intricate foreshadowing and prophesies he's already written into the story, I don't think he has nearly the latitude to change his original ending as you're implying here.

Basically, now that GRRM seems like he is struggling to figure out how to proceed, I don't know how much I trust what he or the show runners may have said about their intentions in 2011, when their statements may have been based on decisions GRRM made when he was in a more optimistic frame of mind.

His struggle to finish doesn't necessarily mean he'll have to change his ending. GRRM is fond of quoting Tolkein and saying that, "The tale grew in the telling." It's grown so large and complex that it's become difficult to keep track of all the various plot lines; he's explicitly blamed the "Mereenese Knot" (his difficulty in figuring out how to extricate Dany from Essos and bring her back to Westeros) for much of the delay in recent years. But that doesn't mean his ending has or will change.

 

[IrishLion]

I think the show is doing a great job now of destroying that Mereenese Knot, and shows us explicitly (which we already basically knew was coming) that Tyrion will be her key to getting to Westeros.

As an adviser, a historian, and the best tactician in the books (aside from his deceased father and mayyyyyyybe Rob Stark), Tyrion is more than well-rounded and clever enough to rally Westerosi banners to her cause, and the show has driven past the books in opening that possibility.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

From /r/asoiaf:

As some may, or may not, know the final moments of the Season 5 season finale will "break the internet".

It is important to note this was said by Daniel Portman (aka Podrick). So he must, at least, have knowledge of the scene, if not fully involved.

So I'd like to break down how broken the internet will be, if certain events do occur:

Jon is Stabbed (seemingly to death) - 60% internet outage - Show watchers only go nuts assuming Jon is dead and gone, most book-readers assume he will be revived somehow

It is implied that Jon is Resurrected - 40% internet outage - book readers go nuts confirming their theories about tWoW. Show watcher are just thankful he's alive

Jon is confirmed dead and gone - 90% internet outage - Show watchers are rip shit, book readers will still cling to theories until tWoW is released

Dany Rides Drogon - 30% internet outage - People are excited to see this finally happen, tho book readers already know

Arya changes her face and kills Trant - 75% internet outage - A lot of people see this coming, even the book readers will be pumped to actually see it happen on screen

Brienne Kills Stannis - 60% internet outage - There would be huge outroar between Stannis lovers and Brienne lovers. But, the scene isn't from the books so its unlikely unless D&D were lying about that

Cercei's Walk of Shame - 30% internet outage - Some people might be excited to see her naked or just humiliated
Robert Strong Revealed - 50% internet outage - We finally get to see exactly what is going on under that sheet

Lady Stoneheart - 100% internet outage - Full on apocalyptic pre1980's internet shut down

Lady Stoneheart is the only thing I can think of that will full-on shock both book reader and show watchers alike, since most expect she's been cut.

BONUS: Someone mentioned, after the credits, they announce The Winds of Winter release date. That would break the net. But I don't know how Daniel Portman could know that detail.

So what do you think could actually fully shock the whole Game of Thrones fan-base? Cuz, for me, there is only one thing.

 

[Emcee77]

With all the intricate foreshadowing and prophesies he's already written into the story, I don't think he have nearly the latitude to change his original ending as you're implying here.



His struggle to finish doesn't necessarily mean he'll have to change his ending. GRRM is fond of quoting Tolkein and saying that, "The tale grew in the telling." It's grown so large and complex that it's become difficult to keep track of all the various plot lines; he's explicitly blamed the "Mereenese Knot" (his difficulty in figuring out how to extricate Dany from Essos and bring her back to Westeros) for much of the delay in recent years. But that doesn't mean his ending has or will change.

I didn't mean to imply that the "ending" can change. I tend to agree that many key aspects of it can't change (although I'm not as convinced that all the suspected foreshadowing and prophesies will really come into play). But people sometimes refer to GRRM's "endgame," which I take to mean something broader than "ending." The "endgame" is how you get to the ending, the events that precipitate the ending. And I think the "endgame" could change dramatically from how he originally envisioned it.

 

[wizards8507]

As an adviser, a historian, and the best tactician in the books (aside from his deceased father and mayyyyyyybe Rob Stark), Tyrion is more than well-rounded and clever enough to rally Westerosi banners to her cause, and the show has driven past the books in opening that possibility.

You're selling Stannis short.

Varys: Lord Stannis in particular. His claim is the true one, he is known for his prowess as a battle commander, and he is utterly without mercy.

Tywin: I have felt from the beginning that Stannis was a greater danger than all the others combined. Yet he does nothing.

I'd also throw in the Blackfish and Randall Tarly.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

 

[IrishLax]

No love for my boy Littlefinger?

 

[IrishLion]

You're selling Stannis short.

Varys: Lord Stannis in particular. His claim is the true one, he is known for his prowess as a battle commander, and he is utterly without mercy.

Tywin: I have felt from the beginning that Stannis was a greater danger than all the others combined. Yet he does nothing.

I'd also throw in the Blackfish and Randall Tarly.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

Nah, Stannis is floundering in the North and getting beat by the elements even before any battle has occurred. He had his earlier chances and got bested by Tywin's reserves.

Maybe Tarly and the Blackfish technically, but we have seen little of the Blackfish and less of Tarly to this point.

In terms of major characters that still live and have been featured, Tyrion's defense of King's Landing gives him the nod, IMO.

Littlefinger and Varys may be the best at playing the long game, but I think Tyrion is the most well-rounded considering all of his accomplishments despite everyone working against him (except Varys).

 

[wizards8507]

Nah, Stannis is floundering in the North and getting beat by the elements even before any battle has occurred. He had his earlier chances and got bested by Tywin's reserves.

Maybe Tarly and the Blackfish technically, but we have seen little of the Blackfish and less of Tarly to this point.

In terms of major characters that still live and have been featured, Tyrion's defense of King's Landing gives him the nod, IMO.

Littlefinger and Varys may be the best at playing the long game, but I think Tyrion is the most well-rounded considering all of his accomplishments despite everyone working against him (except Varys).

Defending King's Landing with the crown's resources is a hell of a lot easier than marching an army of Southron sellswords north of the wall before laying siege to Winterfell.

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[IrishLion]

Defending King's Landing with the crown's resources is a hell of a lot easier than marching an army of Southron sellswords north of the wall before laying siege to Winterfell.

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Eh, Knights on horseback with steal is gonna run roughshod through Wildling ranks regardless of the commander. And he hasn't even assaulted Winterfell yet.

Tyrion had the crown's resources, but he pulled Stannis into his trap, organized the charges to the river, and fought like a true Halfman despite questionable loyalty on all sides. AND this was while dealing with Joffrey and the Hound being bitches at crucial moments, as well as the potential breaking of the Gold Cloaks.