2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


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phgreek

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Perhaps it is you who is mistaken: Top Four Misconceptions about Fast Food Workers | Groundswell

"Myth: Employees at fast-food restaurants are high school kids making a little side cash.
The days of high school kids flipping burgers after school to earn a little extra spending cash are long gone. Today, 40 percent of the workforce in the fast food industry is 25 or older, and the average fast-food worker is 29 years old. 26 percent of fast food workers are parents with children. 31 percent of workers at fast-food restaurants have at least attempted college.
"

I've seen multiple argue in this thread that the market sets the value of employee compensation. You seem to be arguing around the edges of that statement as well. So, if that is true your local McDonald's cannot get people to fill shifts because the market has dictated that they should be compensated at a higher rate.

I can't do this argument...not because the concepts escape me, but because I cannot get over how pathetic this country has become where we are forced to discuss the need for shelf stockers and fast food employees to make a living wage...and that is somehow a right...God help them.
 

GoIrish41

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That's exactly my point. When you price entry-level kids out of the workplace, nobody is going to hire them.


Yes. They should and are compensated at a higher rate. When was the last time you were in any proximity to a minimum wage job? I was in food service five years ago and my sister is in fast food now, and nobody we've ever worked with has earned a minimum wage. If someone is earning minimum wage, it's because they're cosmically inept.

So, it was exactly your point that "when you price entry level kids out of the workplace, nobody is going to hire them" when you said "the people working minimum wages jobs are HIGH SCHOOL SOPHOMORES"? Yeah, I didn't really get that from your post. But let's pretend that is what you meant. Your example about your local McDonald's proves your point is invalid. Are they turning HS kid away from jobs in spite of the fact that they can't fill their shifts? I doubt it.

The reason the average age of fast food workers is 29 is because there are not other opportunities to pursue for the older more experienced workers -- many of whom are victims of manufacturing jobs being shipped overseas. They are working alongside, not instead of, the HS sophomores that your post wrongly said were the ones who are filling all these jobs." Older people work at fast food jobs because they don't have any other choices -- and fast food chains pay them a pittance because they are exploiting people.

Minimum wage jobs are prevalent in some places, while not in others. Don't make the mistake at looking only at your local McDonald's in Connecticut and ignore the one in West Virginia or Mississippi. I keep trying to tell you, the world is bigger than you can see from your front yard -- and far less black and white. Someday you'll figure that out.
 
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kmoose

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According to studies cited in the article below, a $15.00 minimum wage for fast-food workers would require only a 4% increase in operating costs. So let's see, that would mean my McDonald's sandwich would cost about 16 cents more. I guess you'd quit going to McDonald's if your Big Mac cost 16 cents more. I doubt many others would join you.

Seattle's $15 Minimum Wage Law, Explained - Eater

On an anecdotal note, the price of a senior coffee at my local McDonald's has risen from 50 cents to 80 cents in the past year, an increase of 60%. The employees are still making $8.50 an hour and the seniors are still sitting at the same table every morning drinking their coffee. I suspect if the cost of a large sandwich increased from $4.00 to $4.16 you would see the same result. Now, that's not saying the local management or corporate manager won't raise the cost even more to benefit their bottom line, but that will not be caused by raising wages to $15.00 per hour.

And some businesses that were doomed to fail for other reasons will have no problem blaming the increase in wages for their problems. The bottom line is that if your business can't absorb a 4% increase in operating costs, it will fail on its own when other costs rise. And the cost to consumers overall would be far less than 4%, because a minimum wage law would only effect those jobs being paid a minimum wage. The vast majority of your expenses would not be effected by an increase in the minimum wage, because those employees are already earning more than $15.00 per hour.

Deflection, deflection, deflection. You state that we have nothing to fear by raising the minimum wage to $15/hr. because Seattle did it and is "doing fine". In fact, they are NOT "doing fine". Seattle is seeing their highest unemployment since the Great Recession of the 2000s. So now you are trying to couch it as paying an extra $.16 for a hamburger at McDonalds? The bottom line is that the $15/hr minimum wage DID hurt Seattle's economy. I will grant you that the long term effects have yet to be realized, and it may end up being a net positive in the long run. But don't sit here and try to tell us that Seattle is "doing fine" with their $15/hr minimum wage, because they aren't, at this point.
 

wizards8507

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...and fast food chains pay them a pittance because they are exploiting people.
Your entire position can be summed up in this horseshit sentence. Employment is a mutually-agreed upon arrangement wherein an employee freely agrees to work for a specified wage. There is absolutely no exploitation involved. If you think you're worth $15 per hour, don't agree to work for $7.00 per hour. It really is as simple as that.

Your response: Nobody is willing to pay them $15 per hour!

My counter: Then I guess they were mistaken thinking that's how much they were worth.

Your proposition is a recipe for 1) unemployment, 2) automation, and 3) illegal immigration at wages that are actually exploitative because the illegal immigrant has no recourse, being "in the shadows" and all.

Minimum wage jobs are prevalent in some places, while not in others. Don't make the mistake at looking only at your local McDonald's in Connecticut and ignore the one in West Virginia or Mississippi. I keep trying to tell you, the world is bigger than you can see from your front yard -- and far less black and white. Someday you'll figure that out.
What the actual fuck do you think "Connecticut" is? I'm so sick of this bullshit that I get from you and others that somehow living in New England disqualifies me from having an opinion on anything, while someone who's lived in the Midwest or the South is eminently more qualified to speak on such topics. No, I've never lived in poverty, but I grew up in a town with a median household annual income of $39,000. My dad made about $50K and that put us in the "rich" part of town. Sure, there are poorer parts of the country, but that's still significantly below the national average of $52,000. So cut the snide little comments about how I live in "Connecticut" as if that's some kind of slur implying I spend my weekends on the yacht I keep down in Greenwich.
 
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Ndaccountant

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So, it was exactly your point that "when you price entry level kids out of the workplace, nobody is going to hire them" when you said "the people working minimum wages jobs are HIGH SCHOOL SOPHOMORES"? Yeah, I didn't really get that from your post.

But let's pretend that is what you meant. Your example about your local McDonald's proves your point is invalid. Are they turning HS kid away from jobs in spite of the fact that they can't fill their shifts? I doubt it.

The reason the average age of fast food workers is 29 is because there are not other opportunities for the people who work them to pursue. They are working alongside, not instead of, the HS sophomores that your post wrongly said were the ones who are filling all these jobs." Older people work at fast food jobs because they don't have any other choices -- and fast food chains pay them a pittance because they are exploiting people.

Minimum wage jobs are prevalent in some places, while not in others. Don't make the mistake at looking only at your local McDonald's in Connecticut and ignore the one in West Virginia or Mississippi. I keep trying to tell you, the world is bigger than you can see from your front yard -- and far less black and white. Someday you'll figure that out.

In what world is earning an average 3% margin, before tax, exploitation?
 

BGIF

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Your entire position can be summed up in this horseshit sentence. Employment is a mutually-agreed upon arrangement wherein an employee freely agrees to work for a specified wage. There is absolutely no exploitation involved. If you think you're worth $15 per hour, don't agree to work for $7.00 per hour. It really is as simple as that.

Your response: Nobody is willing to pay them $15 per hour!

My counter: Then I guess they were mistaken thinking that's how much they were worth.

Your proposition is a recipe for 1) unemployment, 2) automation, and 3) illegal immigration at wages that are actually exploitative because the illegal immigrant has no recourse, being "in the shadows" and all.


What the actual fuck do you think "Connecticut" is? I'm so sick of this bullshit that I get from you and others that somehow living in New England disqualifies me from having an opinion on anything, while someone who's lived in the Midwest or the South is eminently more qualified to speak on such topics. No, I've never lived in poverty, but I grew up in a town with a median household annual income of $39,000. My dad made about $50K and that put us in the "rich" part of town. Sure, there are poorer parts of the country, but that's still significantly below the national average of $52,000. So cut the snide little comments about how I live in "Connecticut" as if that's some kind of slur implying I spend my weekends on the yacht I keep down in Greenwich.


Commodore Wizards
 

Ndaccountant

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Your entire position can be summed up in this horseshit sentence. Employment is a mutually-agreed upon arrangement wherein an employee freely agrees to work for a specified wage. There is absolutely no exploitation involved. If you think you're worth $15 per hour, don't agree to work for $7.00 per hour. It really is as simple as that.

Your response: Nobody is willing to pay them $15 per hour!

My counter: Then I guess they were mistaken thinking that's how much they were worth.

Your proposition is a recipe for 1) unemployment, 2) automation, and 3) illegal immigration at wages that are actually exploitative because the illegal immigrant has no recourse, being "in the shadows" and all.


What the actual fuck do you think "Connecticut" is? I'm so sick of this bullshit that I get from you and others that somehow living in New England disqualifies me from having an opinion on anything, while someone who's lived in the Midwest or the South is eminently more qualified to speak on such topics. No, I've never lived in poverty, but I grew up in a town with a median household annual income of $39,000. My dad made about $50K and that put us in the "rich" part of town. Sure, there are poorer parts of the country, but that's still significantly below the national average of $52,000. So cut the snide little comments about how I live in "Connecticut" as if that's some kind of slur implying I spend my weekends on the yacht I keep down in Greenwich.

http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/notre-dame-football/224343-snow-tailgating-saturday.html

what a thread
 

IrishLion

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Not unlike "The Captain" Howard Archibald in Gossip Girl.

Wanna know how I know you're gay?*





*Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Fantastic show.

200.gif
 

connor_in

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Please don't tell me you guys are putting together a group thing to some midnight showing of the Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants?
 

EddytoNow

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To all the "Free Market Is God" theists: "The Market" can, at times, be as bat-shit crazy as any one individual – you know, that cat lady or the hoarder or the person insisting that the Rapture is nigh.

In 1968 I was paid $1.00 an hour at a part time job. The minimum wage soon catapulted to $1.25 an hour! I was not laid off and Colonial Drugs did not fold. It continued to prosper. In fact, sales in non drug related items increased since some felt that the added income "justified" purchases of Jean Naté and such.

At one point in my life I decided to go "straight" and get an MBA. I took the necessary micro and macro economics classes. When the prevailing concepts of Derived Demand and the proposition that 3% unemployment was "full" employment were presented as de facto rather than de jure to rationalize and justify a perceived need to balance that whole supply and demand cant, I lost interest.

All "demand" is derived. Whether it be derived from a need to breathe clean air, drink non-toxic water, have an affordable roof over one's head or piss away mucho dineros on a car, house, travel, etc.; they are all derived.

Clearly the nation and the world's economy have adjusted to, and survived, increases in wages.

In fact, they have thrived, in spite of greedy, air-headed and (foolishly) unregulated "blips."

And two years later when I was stocking the shelves for Pic-Way Shoes, the minimum wage had catapulted to $1.80 per hour, a 50% increase over your 1968 minimum wage. And miraculously the economy didn't collapse. Fast food restaurants popped up all over the place. How could they manage with such a drastic increase in the amount they had to pay their employees?

Try this inflation calculator. If the minimum wage just kept up with inflation from 1970 to 2016, the minimum wage would now be $11.14 per hour. Bernie wants $15.00. Hillary is asking for $12.00 with adjustments for future inflation. Neither is asking for it to happen tomorrow, but rather to be phased in over the next few years.

Inflation Calculator: Bureau of Labor Statistics
 
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kmoose

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I think this requires some emergency measures:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/QGE23Uykd1Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/pTHaFFj_UxQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/iJve6j1ZhMo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

IrishLax

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And two years later when I was stocking the shelves for Pic-Way Shoes, the minimum wage had catapulted to $1.80 per hour, a 50% increase over your 1968 minimum wage. And miraculously the economy didn't collapse. Fast food restaurants popped up all over the place. How could they manage with such a drastic increase in the amount they had to pay their employees?

Because they couldn't automate your job, and because the economic climate is completely different today then it was then.

I mean do you seriously not appreciate the gargantuan of manual labor jobs that have literally been priced out of the economy since the 1960s? Are you being intentionally dense or intentionally flippant about he difference in the US economy since the 60s?
 

Wild Bill

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And two years later when I was stocking the shelves for Pic-Way Shoes, the minimum wage had catapulted to $1.80 per hour, a 50% increase over your 1968 minimum wage. And miraculously the economy didn't collapse. Fast food restaurants popped up all over the place. How could they manage with such a drastic increase in the amount they had to pay their employees?

Try this inflation calculator. If the minimum wage just kept up with inflation from 1970 to 2016, the minimum wage would now be $11.14 per hour. Bernie wants $15.00. Hillary is asking for $12.00 with adjustments for future inflation. Neither is asking for it to happen tomorrow, but rather to be phased in over the next few years.

Inflation Calculator: Bureau of Labor Statistics

Chicago has a plan in place to gradually increase it from $8.25 to $13.00, I believe. We started terminating people once it hit $10.00 hour and we use a call center in Bulgaria for a fraction of the cost. I assume most business owners will do something similar - find ways to not pay rather than find ways to pay.
 

GoIrish41

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Your entire position can be summed up in this horseshit sentence. Employment is a mutually-agreed upon arrangement wherein an employee freely agrees to work for a specified wage. There is absolutely no exploitation involved. If you think you're worth $15 per hour, don't agree to work for $7.00 per hour. It really is as simple as that.

Your response: Nobody is willing to pay them $15 per hour!

My counter: Then I guess they were mistaken thinking that's how much they were worth.

Your proposition is a recipe for 1) unemployment, 2) automation, and 3) illegal immigration at wages that are actually exploitative because the illegal immigrant has no recourse, being "in the shadows" and all.


What the actual fuck do you think "Connecticut" is? I'm so sick of this bullshit that I get from you and others that somehow living in New England disqualifies me from having an opinion on anything, while someone who's lived in the Midwest or the South is eminently more qualified to speak on such topics. No, I've never lived in poverty, but I grew up in a town with a median household annual income of $39,000. My dad made about $50K and that put us in the "rich" part of town. Sure, there are poorer parts of the country, but that's still significantly below the national average of $52,000. So cut the snide little comments about how I live in "Connecticut" as if that's some kind of slur implying I spend my weekends on the yacht I keep down in Greenwich.

Living in New England does not disqualify your opinion, not having any experience beyond the confines of New England limits your exposure to the wider world. You are so confident and aggressive with your opinions that racism is a myth, all poor people have to do is work harder, and opportunities abound for everyone who wants it bad enough. These assertions betray your lack of understanding of the world beyond your New England existence.
 

IrishLax

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Chicago has a plan in place to gradually increase it from $8.25 to $13.00, I believe. We started terminating people once it hit $10.00 hour and we use a call center in Bulgaria for a fraction of the cost. I assume most business owners will do something similar - find ways to not pay rather than find ways to pay.

I truly don't understand how this is hard to grasp for anyone. If the job isn't absolutely vital for the the function of the business, it will be eliminated (or outsourced or whatever) once it is deemed by management to not be financially viable. This happens in virtually every industry. If it IS vital, then they have to make up the cost somewhere else. If that doesn't work, the business goes under.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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So, it was exactly your point that "when you price entry level kids out of the workplace, nobody is going to hire them" when you said "the people working minimum wages jobs are HIGH SCHOOL SOPHOMORES"? Yeah, I didn't really get that from your post. But let's pretend that is what you meant. Your example about your local McDonald's proves your point is invalid. Are they turning HS kid away from jobs in spite of the fact that they can't fill their shifts? I doubt it.

The reason the average age of fast food workers is 29 is because there are not other opportunities to pursue for the older more experienced workers -- many of whom are victims of manufacturing jobs being shipped overseas. They are working alongside, not instead of, the HS sophomores that your post wrongly said were the ones who are filling all these jobs." Older people work at fast food jobs because they don't have any other choices -- and fast food chains pay them a pittance because they are exploiting people.

Minimum wage jobs are prevalent in some places, while not in others. Don't make the mistake at looking only at your local McDonald's in Connecticut and ignore the one in West Virginia or Mississippi. I keep trying to tell you, the world is bigger than you can see from your front yard -- and far less black and white. Someday you'll figure that out.

Or they don't have any skills needed for the modern workforce/ economy. Not all of us can be put into a certain victim class, ya know? And guess what...they're not all poor kids from bad neighborhoods who can't escape poverty. There are plenty of college grads with useless degrees working at Starbucks.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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I truly don't understand how this is hard to grasp for anyone. If the job isn't absolutely vital for the the function of the business, it will be eliminated (or outsourced or whatever) once it is deemed by management to not be financially viable. This happens in virtually every industry. If it IS vital, then they have to make up the cost somewhere else. If that doesn't work, the business goes under.

Because corporations are evil and social justice. That's why.
 

irish1958

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If that girl keeps that up, those things will be around her knees in a few years. That's my medical opinion and I'll investigate further, if asked.
 

wizards8507

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Living in New England does not disqualify your opinion, not having any experience beyond the confines of New England limits your exposure to the wider world. You are so confident and aggressive with your opinions that racism is a myth, all poor people have to do is work harder, and opportunities abound for everyone who wants it bad enough. These assertions betray your lack of understanding of the world beyond your New England existence.
When I was at Notre Dame, I lived in a $400 per month apartment, utilities included. I was the only student in the building. Most of my neighbors were fixed income, disabled veterans, and the otherwise impoverished. Then I moved to Florida for three years. I've lived in Connecticut for two.

Any other theories?
 
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