2013 Fall Camp Thread

[Whiskeyjack]

If Josh and Lo decide to transfer before the season starts, we'll only have 79 players on scholarship, 4 of which already have season-ending injuries.

That means we'll limp into the Temple game with only 75 scholarship players ready to see the field. Those are USC-under-crippling-sanctions-type numbers. There's simply no way we will ever compete with 'Bama unless Kelly and the Admissions office find some way to address our unique attrition issues.

 

[aubeirish]

If Josh and Lo decide to transfer before the season starts, we'll only have 79 players on scholarship, 4 of which already have season-ending injuries.

That means we'll limp into the Temple game with only 75 scholarship players ready to see the field. Those are USC-under-crippling-sanctions-type numbers. There's simply no way we will ever compete with 'Bama unless Kelly and the Admissions office find some way to address our unique attrition issues.

That's my concern as well. These are guys that will most probably see meaningful time on ST, or at least provide quality depth. A luxury which is essential toward our BCS goal.

 

[Old Man Mike]

On Media: If properly done, showing something should be strategically better than not showing it. I'd show NO live-action stuff, as this could reveal injuries of a chronic type, but sculptured clips leave one with control.

For example: showing Notre Dame WRs catching balls all over the field [on passes where Tommy or whoever looked good throwing the ball] can do nothing but give the opposing DCs the idea that they have a lot to plan against --- thus diluting their practice time or their thoughts on fine-focussed gimmick strategies. I'd also slip an understated clip of some gimmick of our own WHICH WE WERE NOT PLANNING TO USE [just run once for the filming][see: I'm not really a nice guy when it comes to Macchiavellian gamesmanship] as this could waste more opponent D-time.

The point is that when you are only putting out sculpted information, you are in control of another weapon.

===================================================================================

As far as attrition and bulk numbers are concerned. You can run a completely effective college football team with about 70+ players who are genuinely able to contribute excellent play. This is [roughly] three deep teams plus a small number of specialists. Or, to put it another way, its your two deep and your scout team.

But because life doesn't misbehave "evenly", that risks bad things happening in positional clusters. Example: an injury "run" on one position. Frankly, Kelly is about as immune to this as there is. His flexible "Power", Big Skill", "Skill" way of thinking about things is used to smear the talent around effectively where holes arise. And the staff is brilliant enough to teach the new roles.

If one had 70-75 "ready" football players, well-distributed, one can even fully stock the punt and kickoff defense teams with studs. As long as we don't lose personnel in clusters, or critical starter personnel [like Danny], we will be fine with 70-75 with the quality of this roster.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

If one had 70-75 "ready" football players, well-distributed, one can even fully stock the punt and kickoff defense teams with studs. As long as we don't lose personnel in clusters, or critical starter personnel [like Danny], we will be fine with 70-75 with the quality of this roster.

Is that a reasonable expectation, Mike? Even the best rosters have their fair share of busts, malcontents, and loafers. Trying to compete with the SEC when we've got 10-15 fewer available players further reduces our already slim margin for error.

 

[Luckylucci]

Is that a reasonable expectation, Mike? Even the best rosters have their fair share of busts, malcontents, and loafers. Trying to compete with the SEC when we've got 10-15 fewer available players further reduces our already slim margin for error.

I have to agree. Its really hard for a coaching staff to keep the 3rd stringers engage for an entire season or career.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Whiskey, I of course agree with that. We already have a small number of players who many on IE would rank in that category. I was just noting the hypothetical --- one is reminded of the Draconian numbers that the NFL is forced to reduce to.

I am being so bold with my comments because I believe that the current Notre Dame roster might be just the roster which violates the "unlikeliness" factor in being able to sustain such attrition. My reasons:

A-Team: Rees/ Bryant [my preference; just making a list]/ Niklas/ Jones/ Daniels/ Koyack/ ZMart/ Watt/ NMart/ Lombard/ Stanley, plus Tuitt/ Nix/ Day/ Shembo/ Fox/ Grace/ Councell/ Russell/ Jackson/ Farley/ Shumate = 22.

A2-Team: Hendrix/ McDaniel/ Welch/ Brown/ Robinson/ Procise/ Elmer/ Bivin/ Hegarty/ Hanratty/ McGlinchey, plus Rochell/ Schwenke/ Williams/ Okwara/ Calabreese/ Deeb/ JSmith/ Luke/ Brown/ Hardy/ Collingsworth = 44.

A-3 Team: Zaire/ GAIII/ Heuerman/ Fuller/ Carlisle/ Onwualu/ Montelus/ Harrell/ McGovern [and two "missing OLinemen", which we knew all along we didn't yet have, but filling in with Heggie and a walk-on senior], plus Jones/ Stockton/ Utupo/ Rabasa/ Moore/ Schmidt/ Turner/ Butler/ Kinlaw/ Redfield/ Badger = 66, but missing the two OLine which were never on the roster in the first place [so can't be applied to my argument about a well-stocked original roster.]

Specialists: Daly/ Brindza/ Tausch, and "extra-loaded position" men: Folston/ Smythe/ Massa/ DSmith.

To assess whether Notre Dame might be the rarity which could take the numbers blow, one assesses each "string". First team is generally powerfully intact. Second string is [to my eyes] a VERY good second team bunch. Now, where one should get really hurt, third team: Well, with the exception of our known OLine deficit, as third strings go, that is a pretty darn good outfit. We ARE talking THIRD string afterall.

When one thinks of another typical shallow roster problem, one thinks of kick defense, if one is not going to play ones first team studs. Would I like to see a crowd of fast-moving bad-intentioned maulers named Williams/ Okwara/ JSmith/ Deeb/ Luke/ Brown/ Hardy/ Collingsworth/ Redfield or whomever racing downhill for Notre Dame? Yeh.

Anyway--- the point wasn't that it made no difference, just that we are so generally deep that it shouldn't hurt us too much.

 

[Pa Golden Tate Fan]

If Josh and Lo decide to transfer before the season starts, we'll only have 79 players on scholarship, 4 of which already have season-ending injuries.

That means we'll limp into the Temple game with only 75 scholarship players ready to see the field. Those are USC-under-crippling-sanctions-type numbers. There's simply no way we will ever compete with 'Bama unless Kelly and the Admissions office find some way to address our unique attrition issues.

What would you do if you were admissions to fix the attrition issues?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Anyway--- the point wasn't that it made no difference, just that we are so generally deep that it shouldn't hurt us too much.

That made me feel better, and I'd also like to point out that, in light of the program's struggles over the last couple decades, we don't have much room to complain. Despite the attrition, our current roster is deeper, more talented and balanced than any we've had in a long long time.

But as deep and talented as we are, the cream of the SEC is even deeper and more talented. So they can practice harder and rest their starters sooner/ more frequently during games, which in turn insulates them from the risk of random injuries, etc.

Maybe that's just the way it has to be, but it's frustrating not being able to play on a level field.

What would you do if you were admissions to fix the attrition issues?

I truly have no idea. We can't oversign because, despite the overwhelming likelihood of attrition, someone might end up losing their scholarship as a result. JuCos aren't really an option because the vast majority of them can't pass admissions. We could try to take more transfers, but (to the best of my knowledge) the staff has virtually no legal* opportunities for communication with kids who are currently under NLOIs at other schools.

Maybe we dedicate a few GAs to scour the JuCo ranks for the very rare prospect that: (1) could pass admissions; (2) has talent; and (3) plays at a position of need for us. And maybe there are legal ways to feel out potential transfers. Other than that, I've got nothin'.

*Hi, Jim Mora!

 

[condoms SUCk]

If Josh and Lo decide to transfer before the season starts,

Is this a real possibility? Holy crap we are dropping like flies.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Keith Arnold just published an article about how our OL is shaping up:

After being forced to play as a true freshman, Ronnie Stanley looks like he has the inside track on that job, pushing Lombard inside to guard to let the 6-foot-6 sophomore man the tackle position.

That's news to me. I thought he red-shirted. Can anyone else confirm?

CRYSTAL BALL

Expect the Irish offensive line to be more dominant this season than last, where they managed to average 200 yards of rushing and receiving during the regular season. Listening to the Irish coaching staff, they believe they have the top left tackle in college football in Zack Martin, which is saying something considering they scout elite prospects like Taylor Lewan each year. Chris Watt isn’t far behind, either.

While replacing a three-year starter in Braxston Cave at center isn’t an easy task, athletically Nick Martin is a better fit for what the Irish are trying to do up front and he’s seamlessly moved into the starting spot. If Stanley can get quickly up to speed, Lombard is already a better guard than Mike Golic was last season.

Last season, the Irish sometimes struggled in pass rush situations with Everett Golson, many times because the young quarterback wasn’t quite sure what he was seeing. Nobody is going to confuse Tommy Rees for a more elusive player than Golson, but the line will do a better job protecting Rees because everybody up front will be on the same page as the quarterback.

Even with a running back depth chart that’s uncertain, expect Notre Dame to take a step forward running the football this season as well. If everybody can stay healthy, there won’t be games where the ground attack lapses like last season.

That last bit is especially important, because Rees has only struggled when our running game got stuffed.

CC: Old Man Mike

 

[Domina Nostra]

I truly have no idea. We can't oversign because, despite the overwhelming likelihood of attrition, someone might end up losing their scholarship as a result. JuCos aren't really an option because the vast majority of them can't pass admissions. We could try to take more transfers, but (to the best of my knowledge) the staff has virtually no legal* opportunities for communication with kids who are currently under NLOIs at other schools.

Maybe we dedicate a few GAs to scour the JuCo ranks for the very rare prospect that: (1) could pass admissions; (2) has talent; and (3) plays at a position of need for us. And maybe there are legal ways to feel out potential transfers. Other than that, I've got nothin'.

*Hi, Jim Mora!

Here is what I think you do.

(1) take more depth kids, like we are doing at DL this year. They need to be big and athletic enough to contribute to be a factor at practice right away, and really want to be at ND. Hooper was a no-brainer last year that we passed on; we've wised-up this year.

(2) Be selective in recruiting the studs--no more headcases; no more over-the-top sale's job. You need to sell them, but at some point our staff's salemenship can overwhelm the kid's heart. Lots of kids have to be sold, but if a kid truely has to be pushed over the finish line, that is not necessarily a win anymore.

The point is we are not going to be able to recruit 22 starters every year like Alabama. That means we won't be able to compete every year just based on the system. It may be more like every 2-4 years when the stars align and some of the young kids plan out faster than expected.

Basically, we need to aim at being a 10 win-per team, and then get lucky every so often when we get the right chemistry or a superstar.

 

[woolybug25]

(2) Be selective in recruiting the studs--no more headcases; no more over-the-top sale's job. You need to sell them, but at some point our staff's salemenship can overwhelm the kid's heart. Lots of kids have to be sold, but if a kid truely has to be pushed over the finish line, that is not necessarily a win anymore.

Ishaq, Tuitt, TFolston, KRussel, Niklas, etc all had to be "pushed over the finish line". I'm not sure how you objectively accomplish #2, but I agree with #1.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

FEI's 2013 preseason projections have ND at 9-3. 6th toughest SoS in the top 25.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Ishaq, Tuitt, TFolston, KRussel, Niklas, etc all had to be "pushed over the finish line". I'm not sure how you objectively accomplish #2, but I agree with #1.

I mean that the kid should not have to undergo a serious personality overhaul to fit in. Its nice to think that you want to fit in, its another thing to actually fit in. I am pretty sure I could have confidently stated that all of those kids will fit right in when they get here. I am not sure I could say that about Lynch.

The other thing we need to do is (3) focus on OL and TEs. That pool of kids is favorable to ND, and it should be our signature. We should be a team of giants that brings terrible pain.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The other thing we need to do is (3) focus on OL and TEs. That pool of kids is favorable to ND, and it should be our signature. We should be a team of giants that brings terrible pain.

So, be Stanford?

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think the staff would prefer to run a "power spread" similar to Clemson's.

 

[Emcee77]

Keith Arnold just published an article about how our OL is shaping up:



That's news to me. I thought he red-shirted. Can anyone else confirm?

Stanley went in garbage time against Navy, IIRC. The staff seemed to think that he and Ferguson didn't burn their redshirts because they played sparingly in games only in the first half of the season. Based on my reading of the rules, the staff was incorrect and was confusing the rule for medical redshirts with the rule for non-medical redshirts, but I don't know that we ever received confirmation one way or the other -- unless we are getting it now from Keith.

 

[fightingirish26]

I am actually still nervous about folston transferring based off nothing that he's done recently but because of our luck with high profile recruits, depth at rb and him entertaining Oregon and auburn at the last minute. I'm not saying he was one that was sort of a force fit and I don't think he is either, but it wouldn't shock me.

 

[fightingirish26]

Stanley went in garbage time against Navy, IIRC. The staff seemed to think that he and Ferguson didn't burn their redshirts because they played sparingly in games only in the first half of the season. Based on my reading of the rules, the staff was incorrect and was confusing the rule for medical redshirts with the rule for non-medical redshirts, but I don't know that we ever received confirmation one way or the other -- unless we are getting it now from Keith.

Stanley played in more games than just navy he saw garbage time throughout the year iirc

 

[Irishman77]

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/72558372?color=ffcc12" width="630" height="354" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>

He mentions saving a year in this clip

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I am actually still nervous about folston transferring based off nothing that he's done recently but because of our luck with high profile recruits, depth at rb and him entertaining Oregon and auburn at the last minute. I'm not saying he was one that was sort of a force fit and I don't think he is either, but it wouldn't shock me.

There are rumors that Folston tried to get into Auburn at the last minute, which is why he was late in getting his LOI in on NSD; "fax machine problems".

Point being, your anxiety over Folson is justified by more than just our recent bad luck. He's definitely a flight risk. I hope he sees the field this season and becomes satisfied with his future on the team.

 

[koonja]

There are rumors that Folston tried to get into Auburn at the last minute, which is why he was late in getting his LOI in on NSD; "fax machine problems".

Point being, your anxiety over Folson is justified by more than just our recent bad luck. He's definitely a flight risk. I hope he sees the field this season and becomes satisfied with his future on the team.

Auburn told Folston no thanks?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Auburn told Folston no thanks?

No clue. Since Malzahn was actively pursuing him for a while, I sort of doubt that. Might have been too late to get him in there for some reason.

It's just a rumor, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Auburn told Folston no thanks?

No. Some crazy Bama fan poisoned the light pole that Auburn mounts their fax machine to. I was out of state when it happened.

 

[koonja]

No clue. Since Malzahn was actively pursuing him for a while, I sort of doubt that. Might have been too late to get him in there for some reason.

It's just a rumor, so take it with a grain of salt.

Well if Folston truly wanted into Auburn, then they must have. It's not like Folston HAD to sign on NSD. Weird. Anyways, hope he stays. He just became that much more important.

 

[woolybug25]

I mean that the kid should not have to undergo a serious personality overhaul to fit in. Its nice to think that you want to fit in, its another thing to actually fit in. I am pretty sure I could have confidently stated that all of those kids will fit right in when they get here. I am not sure I could say that about Lynch.

The other thing we need to do is (3) focus on OL and TEs. That pool of kids is favorable to ND, and it should be our signature. We should be a team of giants that brings terrible pain.

Again... subjective and hindsight. A kid "fits in" only up to the point that he doesn't. If Lynch would have stayed, nobody would be saying that he didn't fit in here.

Another good point on the OL/TE though. These are the type of kids that we can routinely get as well. Furthermore, there is always the possibility that they can switch sides of the ball too.

 

[greyhammer90]

Again... subjective and hindsight. A kid "fits in" only up to the point that he doesn't. If Lynch would have stayed, nobody would be saying that he didn't fit in here.

Agreed. It's crazy to act like we can all predict who will transfer/decommit from a school based on the random tweets we get from them.

Hell for the best proof of that look at Hood. People can say what they want, that guy was prototypical ND until he wasn't.

 

[Old Man Mike]

I am pretty sure that Ronnie Stanley has been told that he did NOT use up a year of eligibility last year --- at least HE clearly thinks that.

Not that my guesses hold any water, but some of the reason for these transfers seems to be Kelly's astonishing ability to load the roster. We have about two-and-a-half teams worth of potential high-level-quality starting players on this team.

No matter how 'confident" you are of your abilities, you better have some patience and humility once you get to campus and see the studs arrayed all around you. {Example: how many programs can there be where Max Redfield would not be talked about in the top four safeties? How many programs where Tarean Folston is not talked about until about four or five OTHER RBs are named?? --- etc.}

We should be deliriously happy that the staff can convince the continued flow of top talent to come into this talented meathouse of competition as it is, before we even win one National Championship.

 

[IrishLion]

So, be Stanford?

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think the staff would prefer to run a "power spread" similar to Clemson's.

I might argue that Stanford has the proper athletes for the "power spread." Their o-line is elite, they have a talented backfield, they usually have a couple of nice "possession" receivers, and most importantly they seem to have the right mix of "blocking" and "receiving" tight ends every year. It just so happens that they run under center and use a fullback.

However, I know next to nothing about Stanford in terms of their specific philosophy for their smashmouth attack. Maybe I'm just putting too much stock into their recent run of athletes/success and feel that they are more versatile than they truly are.

 

[stlnd01]

I mean that the kid should not have to undergo a serious personality overhaul to fit in. Its nice to think that you want to fit in, its another thing to actually fit in. I am pretty sure I could have confidently stated that all of those kids will fit right in when they get here. I am not sure I could say that about Lynch.

Williams? He nearly left after his freshman year, IIRC. And it's too soon to say on Folston. Check back in a year. But your point is well-taken.

Culturally, Notre Dame is not for everyone. Couple that with the distance issues that come with recruiting nationally and our academic requirements, and the rightly-desired depth/competition for limited playing time, and we're gonna have transfers. That's OK.

But coupled with our inability to take JUCOs or even hardly any incoming transfers and our not oversigning, and it does make assessing each recruit's personality and want-to-be-here that much more important. I do wonder a bit if that's why we've taken commits from several under-the-radar prospects this cycle instead of guys who, on paper at least, are "better" football players.

 

[NDdomer2]

Didnt see these posted anywhere, so I thought I'd share, a few player inteviews (coincidentally, with good hair):

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/72677866?=1" width="398" height="224" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/72678002" width="400" height="300" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>

bring back a post from couple days ago to try and get some discussion going about guys that actual are playing this year. just over two weeks fellas!

Video 1 - This kid doesn't care he just wants to play some football!

Video 2 - Amazing how mature this guy has become. I might be most excited to watch how his increased role this season will impact this defense and add to the already potent mix of pass rushers we have.