2012 Fall Camp Thread

[china423]

Depth Chart: http://notredame.rivals.com/cdepthtext.asp?team=NOTREDAME&TEKey=55&Offense=27&Defense=16

 

[Domina Nostra]

Aristotle said, even though you throw a rock up in the air 9,999 times and it comes down, that doesn't mean you should assume it will come down the 10,000th.

That doesn't sound like Aristotle, it sounds like Hume. Aristotle, like Brian Kelly, would say things do what their nature directs them to do. Rocks fall. Human nature, on the other hand, has to be unlocked through practice and repetition until it becomes habitual (unconscious competency/learning to win everyday). Goodman has speed and good hands, the question is whether that potential has been actualized through hard work, or other unproductive behaviors have become habitualized.

 

[PANDFAN]

For real.

Goodman is slow and a poor route runner. He won't last long as a 1st teamer.

As some others have said ....just let things sort themselves out...in actuality goodman is one of.the faster kids on the team....not Chris brown fast but he is fast...public opinions often cloud judgement...while he isnt the sexy pic...we did see how much great downfield blocking helps the running game something freshman often lack and the other thing as OMM said as having a first year starter playing qb u want veterans when possible to make the smoothest transition

 

[Walter White]

Some things I found surprising about the depth chart:

- Calisle listed as a slot guy (I know slot and RB are interchangeable now but thought he was more a RB first)

- Nick Martin is not a back-up guard anymore. Hanratty is now that guy.

- Shembo is listed ahead of Ishaq (From the way Kelly said how good Ishaq looked, I thought he might have taken the top spot. I know they will both play)

- Grace is back-up for both ILB spots

- Where did McCarthy go??? I thought he was preforming really well this Fall and now he's not even listed on the depth chart.

- I think Councell and Jackson might be the most important players on defense. If they get hurt, we will be hurting bad.

 

[polishjuice4]

Some things I found surprising about the depth chart:

- Calisle listed as a slot guy (I know slot and RB are interchangeable now but thought he was more a RB first)

- Nick Martin is not a back-up guard anymore. Hanratty is now that guy.

- Shembo is listed ahead of Ishaq (From the way Kelly said how good Ishaq looked, I thought he might have taken the top spot. I know they will both play)

- Grace is back-up for both ILB spots

- Where did McCarthy go??? I thought he was preforming really well this Fall and now he's not even listed on the depth chart.

- I think Councell and Jackson might be the most important players on defense. If they get hurt, we will be hurting bad.

He's back-up tackle now. Nick that is.

 

[EifertPower]

Agree with a lot of those thoughts. Where is McCarthy on this list? And what about Badger who people said would be a major factor this year?

Jackson and Teo need to stay healthy all year on defense.

I'd like to find a way to get Kendall Moore on the field this year after seeing some of his monster hits last year.

Anyone have any updates on Spond? Hopefully, this isnt a situation like Wenger a year or two ago.

Some things I found surprising about the depth chart:

- Calisle listed as a slot guy (I know slot and RB are interchangeable now but thought he was more a RB first)

- Nick Martin is not a back-up guard anymore. Hanratty is now that guy.

- Shembo is listed ahead of Ishaq (From the way Kelly said how good Ishaq looked, I thought he might have taken the top spot. I know they will both play)

- Grace is back-up for both ILB spots

- Where did McCarthy go??? I thought he was preforming really well this Fall and now he's not even listed on the depth chart.

- I think Councell and Jackson might be the most important players on defense. If they get hurt, we will be hurting bad.

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

As some others have said ....just let things sort themselves out...in actuality goodman is one of.the faster kids on the team....not Chris brown fast but he is fast...public opinions often cloud judgement...while he isnt the sexy pic...we did see how much great downfield blocking helps the running game something freshman often lack and the other thing as OMM said as having a first year starter playing qb u want veterans when possible to make the smoothest transition

Thank you. Chris will play and I am sure he will provide much needed speed when he is on the field. At this point, however, Goody is likely the more complete receiver. Freshman fever is on the loose.

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

Agree with a lot of those thoughts. Where is McCarthy on this list? And what about Badger who people said would be a major factor this year?

Jackson and Teo need to stay healthy all year on defense.

I'd like to find a way to get Kendall Moore on the field this year after seeing some of his monster hits last year.

Anyone have any updates on Spond? Hopefully, this isnt a situation like Wenger a year or two ago.

I never heard anyone say Badger would be a factor this year. He needs a year to get reacclimated. I as well am a little disappointed McCarthy is the fifth safety.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

That doesn't sound like Aristotle, it sounds like Hume. Aristotle, like Brian Kelly, would say things do what their nature directs them to do. Rocks fall. Human nature, on the other hand, has to be unlocked through practice and repetition until it becomes habitual (unconscious competency/learning to win everyday). Goodman has speed and good hands, the question is whether that potential has been actualized through hard work, or other unproductive behaviors have become habitualized.

Aristotle, good old function follows form!

I had to see who I was talking to. Just by way of introduction. Of course that was Socrates through Plato when he was desribing how we were destine to such a limited understand of the real world.

I feel as if trying to keep up with Kelly this summer I have been watching shadows reflected on the cave wall!

 

[STLDomer]

Is Badger likely saving a year of eligiblility this year or will he play some STs?

 

[TerryTate]

Most likely a RS. His brother posts on II's board, and he said he needs to build up his strength and speed to get on the college level.

 

[Riddickulous]

- Where did McCarthy go??? I thought he was preforming really well this Fall and now he's not even listed on the depth chart.

He had locked down the #3 safety spot, but Matthias Farley has had a tremendous camp.

 

[IrishLax]

Going off Rivals, here are things that are SO disappointing to me:

-Tyler Stockton can't even make the 3 deep at DE? I mean they only even list two guys at Kap's position. Ridiculous.

-DOG linebacker, arguably one of the hardest "mental" positions on the team, has a RS frosh starter, a true frosh 16 year old, and a converted true frosh safety. Christ.

-McCarthy isn't listed on the 3 deep at either safety spot. As a 5th year 4 player he couldn't even hold down a backup spot against two low 3 players, a mid 3 player, and a walk-on... with those 3 players all being true or RS frosh.

It's going to take some serious over-achieving by young/inexperienced players to have a "good" season.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Aristotle, good old function follows form!

I had to see who I was talking to. Just by way of introduction. Of course that was Socrates through Plato when he was desribing how we were destine to such a limited understand of the real world.

I feel as if trying to keep up with Kelly this summer I have been watching shadows reflected on the cave wall!

Like Socrates, Kelly reserves the truth for the initiated.

 

[IrishLion]

Going off Rivals, here are things that are SO disappointing to me:

-Tyler Stockton can't even make the 3 deep at DE? I mean they only even list two guys at Kap's position. Ridiculous.

-DOG linebacker, arguably one of the hardest "mental" positions on the team, has a RS frosh starter, a true frosh 16 year old, and a converted true frosh safety. Christ.

-McCarthy isn't listed on the 3 deep at either safety spot. As a 5th year 4 player he couldn't even hold down a backup spot against two low 3 players, a mid 3 player, and a walk-on... with those 3 players all being true or RS frosh.

It's going to take some serious over-achieving by young/inexperienced players to have a "good" season.

To play devil's advocate, these "low and mid" three-star players were recruited specifically for this defensive system. McCarthy was not. Maybe the things that the coaching staff liked about them, combined with their (very short time-frame) development has pushed the youngsters ahead of a more athletic (and oft-injured) McCarthy.

 

[arrowryan]

Going off Rivals, here are things that are SO disappointing to me:

-Tyler Stockton can't even make the 3 deep at DE? I mean they only even list two guys at Kap's position. Ridiculous.

-DOG linebacker, arguably one of the hardest "mental" positions on the team, has a RS frosh starter, a true frosh 16 year old, and a converted true frosh safety. Christ.

-McCarthy isn't listed on the 3 deep at either safety spot. As a 5th year 4 player he couldn't even hold down a backup spot against two low 3 players, a mid 3 player, and a walk-on... with those 3 players all being true or RS frosh.

It's going to take some serious over-achieving by young/inexperienced players to have a "good" season.

Or we just have solid, young and talented players that are ready to see the field..

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

Or we just have solid, young and talented players that are ready to see the field..

Romeo had never dropped in to pass coverage before two weeks ago. Let me say that again, NEVER. He is now our #2 drop LB. Kid has tons of talent and athleticism but that is asking a lot.

 

[elboricua]

What's sad is that Notre Dame fans should be able to see through this type of reasoning and understand that star rankings are irrelevant in this particular case. Star rankings are just lists of several groups of talent evaluators' opinions on players. ND's coaching staff and other coaching staffs are different groups of evaluators who have opinions which are likely far more valuable than rivals.com or whoever. All these evaluators project players. That's all they do. Only ND's evaluators have the knowledge of what scheme and duties the players might have in the future. However, what's more is that the ranking really don't matter when they step on the field. That's when projections and stars don't matter anymore. Romeo Okwara could be a completely unranked player and by the way he is 17 now not 16, but that wouldn't change the fact that he is extremely athletic, intelligent(reportedly) and has ideal size for the position that few other players have. Same is true of Chris Brown. The opposite in the size and potential department goes for Stockton. Stockton could be all-world coming out of high school, that doesn't change the fact that he's less than 6 feet tall, is not heavy, has been injured many times, and is a horrendous fit for this defensive system. As for McCarthy, I don't think it's that he's not a good fit, it's that he likely never was going to fully recover from that nasty injury in high school. Where you are right though, is that ND's depth is still far from where it needs to be. The depth is so much better than under Weis but it's still weak and that is in large part still due to Weis.(see cornerback especially) So as time goes on it will get better, but remember that ND will never have the great depth of elite teams because they don't take JUCOs, they don't cut kids, grayshirt, etc.

 

[IrishLax]

Or we just have solid, young and talented players that are ready to see the field..

Occam's razor, my friend. Occam's razor. Is it more probable that all of those guys being listed above McCarthy means that they are super talented, literally all of them defying recruiting experts, and also somehow mentally ready to see the field immediately with zero experience... or that Dan McCarthy has not stepped up? Again, looking at the frosh, on the experience front we're talking about:
-A kid who didn't play DB in high school.
-A kid who was a converted soccer player who played WR last year and has played no safety in a single live game situation.
-A kid who played DB but was primarily a CB in high school.

 

[arrowryan]

Occam's razor, my friend. Occam's razor. Is it more probable that all of those guys being listed above McCarthy means that they are super talented, literally all of them defying recruiting experts, and also somehow mentally ready to see the field immediately with zero experience... or that Dan McCarthy has not stepped up? Again, looking at the frosh, on the experience front we're talking about:
-A kid who didn't play DB in high school.
-A kid who was a converted soccer player who played WR last year and has played no safety in a single live game situation.
-A kid who played DB but was primarily a CB in high school.

I agree with all of this but we are all just guys sitting in front a computer screen. We don't see what happens in practice, we just have to trust in Kelly's actions

 

[IrishLax]

Romeo had never dropped in to pass coverage before two weeks ago. Let me say that again, NEVER. He is now our #2 drop LB. Kid has tons of talent and athleticism but that is asking a lot.

Exactly. People sitting here acting like it's blasphemous to say it's scary that we have serious experience/depth issues at key positions... and that it's probable that all of these kids with no college experience are super-studs ready to play from Day 1.

It's not about the young kids... it's not about them being stars one day. My post was about the lack of VETERANS making an impact. No Stockton listed ANYWHERE? With a pure open spot behind Day? That means Stockton is, conceivably, so irrelevant that he doesn't even warrant listing on a depth chart. It's better to just leave an open spot. SMDH.

DOG? How the hell does it not scare you terribly if Ben Councell goes down? Both of the kids behind him have basically no experience (a couple weeks, tops) playing any kind of linebacker.

Safety? More akin to the DE situation. How the hell do you get brought back for a 5th year and not even get listed among SIX safeties? It is incredibly disappointing that a guy who was as athletic as McCarthy coming out of HS and has played for three years in this defense can't even beat out a freshman who didn't even play safety in high school and has had a couple weeks in the system. This is not an indictment on Barratti, who I've long championed on here as having way more upside/talent then he is given credit for, it's an indictment on Danny.

And this all assumes the released depth chart is correct.

 

[IrishLax]

I agree with all of this but we are all just guys sitting in front a computer screen. We don't see what happens in practice, we just have to trust in Kelly's actions

Truth.

 

[arrowryan]

Exactly. People sitting here acting like it's blasphemous to say it's scary that we have serious experience/depth issues at key positions... and that it's probable that all of these kids with no college experience are super-studs ready to play from Day 1.

It's not about the young kids... it's not about them being stars one day. My post was about the lack of VETERANS making an impact. No Stockton listed ANYWHERE? With a pure open spot behind Day? That means Stockton is, conceivably, so irrelevant that he doesn't even warrant listing on a depth chart. It's better to just leave an open spot. SMDH.

DOG? How the hell does it not scare you terribly if Ben Councell goes down? Both of the kids behind him have basically no experience (a couple weeks, tops) playing any kind of linebacker.

Safety? More akin to the DE situation. How the hell do you get brought back for a 5th year and not even get listed among SIX safeties? It is incredibly disappointing that a guy who was as athletic as McCarthy coming out of HS and has played for three years in this defense can't even beat out a freshman who didn't even play safety in high school and has had a couple weeks in the system. This is not an indictment on Barratti, who I've long championed on here as having way more upside/talent then he is given credit for, it's an indictment on Danny.

And this all assumes the released depth chart is correct.

You guys make some very valid points but don't forget about Danny Spond, he will be in a couple of weeks. When he comes back Okwara won't be in the 2 deep

 

[Rhode Irish]

Going off Rivals, here are things that are SO disappointing to me:

-Tyler Stockton can't even make the 3 deep at DE? I mean they only even list two guys at Kap's position. Ridiculous.

-DOG linebacker, arguably one of the hardest "mental" positions on the team, has a RS frosh starter, a true frosh 16 year old, and a converted true frosh safety. Christ.

-McCarthy isn't listed on the 3 deep at either safety spot. As a 5th year 4 player he couldn't even hold down a backup spot against two low 3 players, a mid 3 player, and a walk-on... with those 3 players all being true or RS frosh.

It's going to take some serious over-achieving by young/inexperienced players to have a "good" season.

Not that this isn't somewhat fair (although I echo some of what IrishLion and elboricua said in response), but were you really pinning your hopes for the season on Stockton and McCarthy? I mean I get being disappointed with their careers as individuals, but I don't think they were going to make us or break us.

As far as your concerns at DOG, I'm totally with you with regard to Okwara. It is a great sign for his future at ND that the coaches would even consider giving him DOG snaps as a 17yo true freshman, even though I would really rather not have to do that. But I'm fine with Councell being the starter there. He is pretty close to what a DOG LB in this system would look like if he were made in a lab, and he's had a year to learn the position. At some point the rubber has to hit the road, so to speak. I do wish Spond was backing him up, though.

All in all, I'm not saying you're wrong. But I think all you've done is highlight that we aren't a perfect team, and a lot of that is due to our relative youth and inexperience. Some of these guys could/should pleasantly surprise.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Like Socrates, Kelly reserves the truth for the initiated.

Can't you just see the shadows cast and the light from the flames flickering, reflecting off the cave walls?

We don't have to do, or trust anything Kelly says or does. He deals with the team.

You all can doubt DOG all you want. Ben Councell is bigger and stronger. And he is the first person since the defense has been installed who can play the position the way it was envisioned. I am not including Danny Spond in this conversation because of the fluid nature of his recovery.

Romeo is the second. Romeo is 17, his birthday is about a weeks from Jaylon Smith. They are within days of the same age. This kid has BIG TIME POTENTIAL. He moves better than some that are much more knowlegeable than me have ever seen from someone that age (college). Wait until you see him on the field.

 

[dublinirish]

if romeo burns his RS i hope its because he gets meaningful snaps. it would be a waste if he played early on and then when spond gets back hes just playing ST and garbage time

 

[NDhoosier]

as much as I like Okwara as an athlete, I really hope he doesnt burn a year at the DOG position. He is a CAT player and we have Jaylon Smith and even Mattingly coming next year. There are your 4 DOGs (Councel, Spond, Smith, Mattingly) Okwara shouldnt stay at DOG if everything goes as planned.

 

[bigedefense]

Hopefully Goodman won't be starting for long. Someone has to pass him up.

I could be wrong (I am quite often), but i think I remember an update on Goodman that said he had ran a 4.42 forty yard dash at practice today. Obviously that is not meant as today, but rather when this was posted. I am almost certain it was this past spring and I am thinking it was NDPhilly that posted it. The reason I think this is because when I read that, it really stuck out to me. I was guilty of thinking lowly of Goodman solely because of his punt returns (or lack thereof) last season. When I read that, I remember thinking that this poster had shown me what I am guilty of all to often, jumping the gun and making poor decisions about players for ND. Now, I am way to lazy to go back and try to find the post that says this & who wrote it, and I stand behind my thinking that it said Goodman ran a 4.42 & he was the second or third fastest on the team. I might not stand behind, but I would lean against my thinking that it was NDPhilly that posted it. Maybe NDPhilly can confirm this, or maybe if none of it was posted, then I will have proven that the drugs I was on in the spring madero hallucinate some wild stuff. I'm going with it was posted and I will go out on a limb and say Goodman has a really good year. With that kind of speed (4.42), 5 years experience, & the bad taste in his mouth from the criticism he got while fair catching punts last year, he is my bet for 2012's surprise player of the year.

Sorry if this post has misspelled words, grammatical errors, or incoherent ramblings, but I am back in the hospital and I am hooked up to an I. V. that is giving me pain meds at regular intervals without me even punching the button. I recommend all of us here on IE get one of these so we can hook ourselves up before kickoff and enjoy the game regardless of what happens! Appogies all and have a great rest of the day! I'm going to take a little nap.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I love everything about your post, especially that attitude big easy!

The thing I find personally amazing is that the coaching staff keeps telling people, all the time, what they are doing and why. And people still doubt, criticize and question it through confusion and anger.

Kelly said Okware is a DOG. Kelly made it absolutely clear that right now for the forseeable future Okwara was a DOG. And it would take a lot of growing to see CAT. Let alone DE. Okwara as a freshman can cover better than anyone playing the dog position ever for ND than those that are true db's and Ben Councell, this year. Danny Spond does not qualify for this conversation because he cannot currently play.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I love everything about your post, especially that attitude big easy!

The thing I find personally amazing is that the coaching staff keeps telling people, all the time, what they are doing and why. And people still doubt, criticize and question it through confusion and anger.

Kelly said Okware is a DOG. Kelly made it absolutely clear that right now for the forseeable future Okwara was a DOG. And it would take a lot of growing to see CAT. Let alone DE. Okwara as a freshman can cover better than anyone playing the dog position ever for ND than those that are true db's and Ben Councell, this year. Danny Spond does not qualify for this conversation because he cannot currently play.

At this point it is all conjure one way or the other. Lets remember a coach's job is to get his players to produce, so it is possible kelly is talking him up to build confidence. Remember last year how flemming was going to be a world beater coming off the edge? Or what about how good of a camp filer had? Look, i am not in the boat of the kool aid or those that say we are doomed. Its possible romeo could be ready day one, but i find it unlikely.