'14 OH QB DeShone Kizer (Notre Dame Signee)

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OK. Watson's numbers are also better than Kizer's. QB rating, completion percentage, nearly across the board. (Watson did throw more picks last year)

Deshaun Watson Stats, News, Videos, Pictures, Bio - Clemson Tigers - ESPN
DeShone Kizer Stats, News, Videos, Pictures, Bio - Notre Dame Fighting Irish - ESPN

Kizer may have better raw tools. And in the long run Kizer might be a better QB with the proper development. But Watson's not Johnny Manziel or Tim Tebow or Jamarcus Russell. He's a high-character young man with a big arm who has played, and won, consistently on a big stage. I'm not sure what more you want from a QB.

And if I'm drafting a guy to play in the next year or two - which most teams in the top half of the draft have to at least consider - I'd take Watson. Besides maybe size, I'm not clear what the argument is for taking Kizer ahead of Watson. What is it?

Watson does not have a strong arm, that's just completely false. He threw the ball 49mph at the combine. He actually has a very weak arm, and that explains how he could have so many interceptions running a very easy one read offense at Clemson. He's making reads that are correct but by the time his throw gets there his window is already closed. If he's already struggling with that at the college level then just imagine what NFL secondaries will do to him.
 

NDohio

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OK. Watson's numbers are also better than Kizer's. QB rating, completion percentage, nearly across the board. (Watson did throw more picks last year)

Deshaun Watson Stats, News, Videos, Pictures, Bio - Clemson Tigers - ESPN
DeShone Kizer Stats, News, Videos, Pictures, Bio - Notre Dame Fighting Irish - ESPN

Kizer may have better raw tools. And in the long run Kizer might be a better QB with the proper development. But Watson's not Johnny Manziel or Tim Tebow or Jamarcus Russell. He's a high-character young man with a big arm who has played, and won, consistently on a big stage. I'm not sure what more you want from a QB.

And if I'm drafting a guy to play in the next year or two - which most teams in the top half of the draft have to at least consider - I'd take Watson. Besides maybe size, I'm not clear what the argument is for taking Kizer ahead of Watson. What is it?


Yeah, he really is a lot like Tebow.

Watson plays really well when the spotlight is shining brightest. He is a pretty average - and sometimes below average(Troy, NC State, Pitt) - player when it isn't the big stage.

Are we even having this discussion if the NC State kicker doesn't choke?

I don't think either player is going to make a big difference for a NFL team for the next two years. Kizer's ceiling is way higher than Watson's is, that's why you take DK.
 

IrishLion

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Kelly didn't say anything that anyone else hasn't said. Everyone knows these QB's are far from finished products. Scouts, GM.s and coaches know they aren't ready. Essentially that's all Kelly was saying and he noted when Kizer gets more experience under his belt he's going to be a great QB. Read Kelly's final comments. Totally positive for Kizer. Much ado about absolutely nothing.

LAX pretty much touched 'em all, but Kelly should be smarter than to say something that can be twisted like that.

Everyone knows Kizer could've used another year, but Kizer's former head coach doesn't need to utter the phrase "he should still be in school."

Even if the rest of his quote was glowing and positive, people are going to cherry-pick that part for stories, draft summaries and tweets, and Kizer's gonna be grilled much differently in pre-draft interviews moving forward. It's going to go from harmless "why do you think you're ready?/why did you leave early if you still have things to work on?" and become "why does your head coach think you made a mistake?"

Even if it DOESN'T become that, it's still unnecessary for BK to even open up that window of possibility. He should be hard-selling his former starting QB like a motherf*cker, not messing up a thought that he's uttered very reasonably so many times before.
 

NDdomer2

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I don't think any of this is going to lead to much change for Kizer and his intereactions with teams. With media, absolutely. But I would imagine Kizer has already met with every team that has high interest with him already before this quote even occured.
 

NDRock

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Don't think I'd take any of these guys as high 1st rounders. Would rather trade down for more picks.
 

RDU Irish

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Why would anyone stay in college when they are the #1 QB in a draft class? If that is your thought and you have strong conviction behind it no NFL GM is going to hold it against you. He has plenty of ammo to make that case. BK is hurting himself more than Kizer - Kizer is given an opportunity to be the bigger guy. GMs/coaches will love a guy that can eat a shit sandwich like that and smile - don't second guess the coach publicly.
 

RDU Irish

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Don't think I'd take any of these guys as high 1st rounders. Would rather trade down for more picks.

Agree 100% - but QB is such an important position there is no way none are taken first round - and that extra contract year for teams is even more important. Particularly for Kizer who has the upside but needs seasoning.

Top three teams especially - if they don't take them off the bat they will be dealing to move up to late first round picks and snag them if they are falling.
 

dwshade

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LAX pretty much touched 'em all, but Kelly should be smarter than to say something that can be twisted like that.

Everyone knows Kizer could've used another year, but Kizer's former head coach doesn't need to utter the phrase "he should still be in school."

Even if the rest of his quote was glowing and positive, people are going to cherry-pick that part for stories, draft summaries and tweets, and Kizer's gonna be grilled much differently in pre-draft interviews moving forward. It's going to go from harmless "why do you think you're ready?/why did you leave early if you still have things to work on?" and become "why does your head coach think you made a mistake?"

Even if it DOESN'T become that, it's still unnecessary for BK to even open up that window of possibility. He should be hard-selling his former starting QB like a motherf*cker, not messing up a thought that he's uttered very reasonably so many times before.

Kelly never said Kizer made a mistake. Never used that word. He said he understands he made a business decision. And that he needed another year of college which everyone knows is true. He's the youngest of the top QB's in the draft. He'll play his entire rookie year as a 21 year old. You know what Peyton Manning, John Elway, Dan Marino, etc. were doing when they were 21? Playing college football. BTW who is Kelly supposed to be hard selling? If you think that has any effect at all on NFL evaluators it doesn't.
 

IrishLax

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Full transcript:
On Kizer as a prospect:

He's got all those tools that you're looking for at the quarterback position. Look at what he did as a redshirt freshman when he was sufficiently supported around him with a Will Fuller and a C.J. Prosise and the balance that he had. He had a young football team around him [last season] and it was difficult for him at times. So I think he's got all the tools. He needs time. Brady, you know more than anybody else, two years of college football is not enough to go in there and lead a pro franchise to the Super Bowl. For those that have the opportunity to draft him and give him an opportunity to grow and learn, I think he's got the best skillset of the quarterbacks coming out.

What Kizer needs to improve on:

Well, he still should be in college, but the circumstances are such that you have to make business decisions, and he felt like it was in his best interest and I'm going to support him and his decision. The reality of it is he needs more football. He needs more time to grow in so many areas, not just on the field but off the field. He's a great kid. He's got great character. You don't change character much, and he's got great character so you're not going to have an issue there with that young man. He's going to continue to learn and he'll learn with great coaches around him, a great mentor around him, so there's a huge amount of growth that will happen every single day with DeShone Kizer.

When asked about balancing being honest to NFL people and supporting his players:

I've got a lot of relationships that are built on trust with GMs and head coaches in the NFL, and I'm going to be honest with them and I'm going to be honest with DeShone. There is still a lot of growth that has to take place, but I go back to what are the common threads that a great player needs to have? He's got to have traits of excellence. He's got to be able to have that attention to detail and that focus. He's got to be smart. He's got to have the ability to grind, and a great attitude. And he's got those traits but they've got to be continuously worked on. Whoever takes DeShone, he's not a finished product in those areas. But when he does get more time to work on those traits, you're going to have a great young man and a great quarterback. Because the skills are out there, you can see them. You just go to his workout and you can see that he's got those skills. He's just not complete yet. If you want to draft him and say, 'Come on,' and turn it over to him, you're going to have to support him with great leaders around him and great leadership. If you're going to give him time and get a mentor for him, you're going to have a great guy. That's my honesty when I talk to GMs and head coaches.

Asked about how he advised Kizer:

My recommendation to him was he needs more time. He needs to play more football, and I think the best place to play it is to continue his playing at Notre Dame. That doesn't mean we can't agree to disagree and then go and support him. That's what we did. We had a great conversation with his family. I gave him my insight into why I thought it was a good idea for him to come back, but it wasn't adversarial in any way. Once a decision was made, we were united and we went to work to put him in the best situation, helped him with the representation and getting the representation he needed and putting him in a good situation so he could train and get ready now for that next journey. Once a decision was made, it was all in and finding him the best path to get ready for the NFL. That's generally how I've done it with every player that's made a decision to leave.

So basically, they cherry picked some poor phrasing from a handful of sentences to write slam pieces. Is what it is... choose words better next time like he has in his previous interviews.
 

NDohio

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Full transcript:

So basically, they cherry picked some poor phrasing from a handful of sentences to write slam pieces. Is what it is... choose words better next time like he has in his previous interviews.

#fakenews
 

dwshade

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By the way the QB who is really moving up draft boards is Pat Mahomes. Right now I expect he'll be among the first two QB's taken in the draft.
 

woolybug25

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By the way the QB who is really moving up draft boards is Pat Mahomes. Right now I expect he'll be among the first two QB's taken in the draft.

Which I don't get. Comes from a gimmicky offense and has the smallest hands in the draft.
 

zelezo vlk

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Which I don't get. Comes from a gimmicky offense and has the smallest hands in the draft.

Insane arm talent and his hands hit the threshold I believe (9 in). His mechanics are worse than Kizer's, but he's able to make beautiful throws all over the field even with bad mechanics. Basically he's a more raw Derek Carr, and teams are willing to take the chance on that kind of arm talent, but I'd be surprised if he went before the Cards at 13. If anything, he'd be a guy one of the QB needy teams trade back into the 1st for in the 20s.
 

woolybug25

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Insane arm talent and his hands hit the threshold I believe (9 in). His mechanics are worse than Kizer's, but he's able to make beautiful throws all over the field even with bad mechanics. Basically he's a more raw Derek Carr, and teams are willing to take the chance on that kind of arm talent, but I'd be surprised if he went before the Cards at 13. If anything, he'd be a guy one of the QB needy teams trade back into the 1st for in the 20s.

First of all, how he holds the ball when he scrambles made people think he had bigger hands, because he'll need em if he doesn't fix that in the pros. So hands slightly over 9" and the smallest hands of any QB in the draft is not a positive. Secondly, he not only has bad mechanics, but has also never been asked to throw an NFL route tree. If he's the second QB off the board, then the world is flat.
 

kmoose

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Why would anyone stay in college when they are the #1 QB in a draft class?



Exhibit #1:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/tRBDMMVctu8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

:wink:
 

zelezo vlk

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First of all, how he holds the ball when he scrambles made people think he had bigger hands, because he'll need em if he doesn't fix that in the pros. So hands slightly over 9" and the smallest hands of any QB in the draft is not a positive. Secondly, he not only has bad mechanics, but has also never been asked to throw an NFL route tree. If he's the second QB off the board, then the world is flat.

Nobody said it was a positive, but it meets the acceptable threshold. Obviously not everyone has Russell Wilson hands, but 9 inches was seen as the necessary measurement and anything less is a problem. He's considered the 2nd QB because people overrate arm strength (which he has in spades), and none of the other prospects come close to looking like a sure thing.
 

woolybug25

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Nobody said it was a positive, but it meets the acceptable threshold. Obviously not everyone has Russell Wilson hands, but 9 inches was seen as the necessary measurement and anything less is a problem. He's considered the 2nd QB because people overrate arm strength (which he has in spades), and none of the other prospects come close to looking like a sure thing.

Who exactly is saying these things? ha
 

zelezo vlk

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woolybug25

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Sorry, it looks like it's between 9.125 and 9.5 inches. Here's an article addressing the hand size myth (which still lives and was a bigger deal last year with Goff)

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2016/3/4/11161580/quarterback-hand-size-a-statistical-cautionary-tale

And the 2nd best QB part? He's been some guys' top QB for a while, but I can't name anybody off the top of my head who has him as the #2 guy.

That article has been debunked on several occasions. He doesn't put any stock into the fact that the amount of sub 9.25" hand signal callers is significantly less than those with bigger hands. So his statistics are essentially only looking at the cream of the crop guys with small hands. It would be like doing a statistical analysis of height and only including Drew Brees in the subset of short players.

Listen, he plays in a gimmicky offense, doesn't know the route tree, holds the ball like he picked it up off a pile of melons, has the smallest hands in the draft and was 2-7 in games that mattered last season (AZst, KSU, WVU, OU, TCU, UT, OkSt & Iowa St) with an TD/INT ratio of 2.4:1. If someone picks him as the second QB in the draft they are moronic.
 

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Mahomes is going to be a bust. When is the last BIG12 QB that turned into a franchise QB? I can't even think of one.
 

woolybug25

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Mahomes is going to be a bust. When is the last BIG12 QB that turned into a franchise QB? I can't even think of one.

Bradford is the only QB to be traded twice for a first round pick. Does that count? ha
 

zelezo vlk

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That article has been debunked on several occasions. He doesn't put any stock into the fact that the amount of sub 9.25" hand signal callers is significantly less than those with bigger hands. So his statistics are essentially only looking at the cream of the crop guys with small hands. It would be like doing a statistical analysis of height and only including Drew Brees in the subset of short players.

Listen, he plays in a gimmicky offense, doesn't know the route tree, holds the ball like he picked it up off a pile of melons, has the smallest hands in the draft and was 2-7 in games that mattered last season (AZst, KSU, WVU, OU, TCU, UT, OkSt & Iowa St) with an TD/INT ratio of 2.4:1. If someone picks him as the second QB in the draft they are moronic.

Bruh, you asked why 9 inches was the threshold, I gave you a link saying that it was actually between 9.125 and 9.25, that was your question, I answered it. I don't care about the article or its conclusion one bit.

You also asked why he is being considered the #2 QB in the draft and I gave you the reasons: you can't teach arm talent. You can disagree all you want, but I gave you the reasons people like him.
 

woolybug25

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Bruh, you asked why 9 inches was the threshold, I gave you a link saying that it was actually between 9.125 and 9.25, that was your question, I answered it. I don't care about the article or its conclusion one bit.

You also asked why he is being considered the #2 QB in the draft and I gave you the reasons: you can't teach arm talent. You can disagree all you want, but I gave you the reasons people like him.

That's not what you did, you posted a single article from a nobody claiming that 9.125 was a minimum without any sources while adding it to a statistically incorrect analysis.

Then you simply said "some people view him as the #2" and used it as a reference. ha
 

BobbyMac

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After reading that exchange my scoring is as follows:

Rome 1 - Athens 0.
 

zelezo vlk

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That's not what you did, you posted a single article from a nobody claiming that 9.125 was a minimum without any sources while adding it to a statistically incorrect analysis.

Then you simply said "some people view him as the #2" and used it as a reference. ha

Here's Matt Miller claiming that Goff at 9 inches was at the threshold.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Jared Goff measures in at 6'4", 215 lbs, 9" hands. Great to see him put weight on (he can add more). Hands right at threshold.</p>— Matt Miller (@nfldraftscout) <a href="https://twitter.com/nfldraftscout/status/702881899052670976">February 25, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Here's a link to a WaPo article claiming that the threshold is 9 inches.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2016/02/27/whats-on-the-line-at-the-combine-for-jared-goff/?utm_term=.ffdd4b191b2c

The threshold for quarterback hand size is right around that nine-inch mark

Here's an SI article by Chris Burke saying that Mahomes is at the "cutoff point"

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/03/02/nfl-combine-weigh-ins-measurements-quarterbacks-receivers

Mahomes’ hands are right on the cutoff point for where NFL teams can start to panic—at nine inches or below, ball security becomes a concern.

He later goes on to mention how Mahomes holds the ball, just like you did and how it's a concern.

As to point #2, I never said he was the #2 QB, other than taking dwshade's claim at face value. I gave you reasons why draft guys would think so, namely his arm talent, and you go on to twist my words and ignore that you asked questions, which I answered.
 
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