'21 CA QB Tyler Buchner (ND FB -> Bama FB -> ND LAX???)

Veritate Duce Progredi

Veritate Duce Progredi

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I'm retracting my opinions about Buchner from his first two starts. As everyone else said, he's not a finished product and he needs to continue practicing/repping at this level but he's capable of a lot of Ws. He needs to rep behind Hartman with an occasional package play and then fight to be the man the following year. He'd still have 2-3 years of eligibility and a ton of high level reps.
 
Te'o4Heisman

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NorthDakota

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ColinKSU said:
I’m basically here. He badly needs reps, but ND can’t afford to give them to him again next season. If he’s willing to learn behind Hartman, they might have something.
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Alternatively, the kid ain't gonna get the reps he needs if ND won't play him.
 
NorthDakota

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Bluto said:
Wild to think about what might have happened if he didn’t get hurt against Marshal and ND comes storming back last minute in that one.
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Season would have been wild. But I got a feeling we'd have had a lot of fun. He's such a good athlete. Not afraid to pull the trigger.

I am a huge fan of his. Crazy how he does this while having played about as much football as a high school kid.
 
Blazers46

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Bluto said:
Wild to think about what might have happened if he didn’t get hurt against Marshal and ND comes storming back last minute in that one.
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I think we go 6-6 and play in the Sun Bowl...
 
Southside Sully

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Kid is absolutely tough as nails. 3rd college start, 5 total TDs? Dumb play calling on the goal line for one pick and other 2 were bad decisions. Unfortunately next year won’t be his year but love to see him grow. He’s a locker room guy and 50 years ago he’s a generational QB with his legs
 
ulukinatme

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Bluto said:
Wild to think about what might have happened if he didn’t get hurt against Marshal and ND comes storming back last minute in that one.
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I don't know. Pyne was up and down, but one thing he did pretty well is take care of the football. That's an area Tyler has struggled with in his short career. On the flip side he has big play potential and isn't afraid to hang in the pocket and take some brutal hits to make a play. I can see where Tyler would have played better against a team like Stanford, but a couple of mistakes could have cost us in other games like North Carolina and BYU. Drew ended with a Passer Rating of 155 while Tyler was 111. I think the record would have been similar if Tyler started the whole year.
 
NorthDakota

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ulukinatme said:
I don't know. Pyne was up and down, but one thing he did pretty well is take care of the football. That's an area Tyler has struggled with in his short career. On the flip side he has big play potential and isn't afraid to hang in the pocket and take some brutal hits to make a play. I can see where Tyler would have played better against a team like Stanford, but a couple of mistakes could have cost us in other games like North Carolina and BYU. Drew ended with a Passer Rating of 155 while Tyler was 111. I think the record would have been similar if Tyler started the whole year.
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I think 9-3 or 10-2. Not sure which games are the L's. Won't read into the passer rating too much. Buchner's 3 games were against a playoff team, a respectable SEC team, and a bad Marshall.

Pyne got the benefit of playing against plenty of teams that were completely overmatched, and an offense designed to cover up for his SHORTcomings.

Kid is electric. He can start at Notre Dame. If Hartman comes, I really hope he stays.
 
ulukinatme

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NorthDakota said:
I think 9-3 or 10-2. Not sure which games are the L's. Won't read into the passer rating too much. Buchner's 3 games were against a playoff team, a respectable SEC team, and a bad Marshall.

Pyne got the benefit of playing against plenty of teams that were completely overmatched, and an offense designed to cover up for his SHORTcomings.

Kid is electric. He can start at Notre Dame. If Hartman comes, I really hope he stays.
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Pyne played against Clemson, North Carolina, USC, plenty of decent teams and only a few with losing records. He also threw just 6 INTs in 10 games, Tyler had 5 in less than 3 games. 3 of those INTs were pick 6's too. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with Buchner and I'm going to support whoever is under center, but I'm not going to whitewash the season and pretend the season would have been drastically different if he started every game. Tyler was close to being 0-3 as a starter today. I'm very glad he finished strong, he had some big moments.
 
irishandy

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Buchner's role last year as a relief pitcher worked out well for him. It's tough to grade him this year because of his injury, but what I saw with him is that when he is good he's good and when he is bad he's bad.

ND needs to get Hartman and Buchner needs another year as a relief pitcher or compete and take over if Hartman doesn't work out.

He had 1 year to learn with Coan and I think another year with Hartman would benefit Buchner.
 
Old Man Mike

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1. WILDLY Talented.
2. When they put him together, they worked too hard on the WILD part.
3. He badly needs ZEN in the head.
4. I've seen nothing that suggest even the glimmer of ZEN.
5. Very tough person in terms of being willing to face the hits.
6. Completely unpredictable as to what might happen on any play --- and not in a good way for a HC or an OC.
7. I don't want to say this, but I believe that there is a real chance that he will never be NDs number one QB again.
(BOOS all around, I get it. But consider the simple narrative that he is still a wild loose cannon decision-maker, and
Hartman isn't, and Minchey isn't, and Carr isn't, AND THEY'RE ALL GOOD --- what would you do if you are Freeman
and Rees?)
8. I can honestly say that while I enjoyed us winning, and Tyler was "exciting", I didn't enjoy his game. Almost every
other play was screwy in some way, and occasionally spectacularly so. Excited, yes. Terrorized, yes. Enjoyed, he!l no.
 
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Old Man Mike said:
1. WILDLY Talented.
2. When they put him together, they worked too hard on the WILD part.
3. He badly needs ZEN in the head.
4. I've seen nothing that suggest even the glimmer of ZEN.
5. Very tough person in terms of being willing to face the hits.
6. Completely unpredictable as to what might happen on any play --- and not in a good way for a HC or an OC.
7. I don't want to say this, but I believe that there is a real chance that he will never be NDs number one QB again.
(BOOS all around, I get it. But consider the simple narrative that he is still a wild loose cannon decision-maker, and
Hartman isn't, and Minchey isn't, and Carr isn't, AND THEY'RE ALL GOOD --- what would you do if you are Freeman
and Rees?)
8. I can honestly say that while I enjoyed us winning, and Tyler was "exciting", I didn't enjoy his game. Almost every
other play was screwy in some way, and occasionally spectacularly so. Excited, yes. Terrorized, yes. Enjoyed, he!l no.
Click to expand...


I'm going to respectfully disagree, OMM. I didn't see out of control cannon today but I did see rust, loose mechanics, and trying a bit too hard on some plays. I'm honestly surprised given how measured you are with your other comments that I almost always agree with that you are being so outright dismissive of Tyler's long term potential.

  1. Pick 6 on the goal line was a case of him not seeing the safety or locking in on Mitchell Evans - who they REALLY wanted to give a TD to today. TB forced that throw and that's a mistake. Questionable play calling but I think they really wanted to give Mitch a TD after not having any catches on the season coming in.
  2. The other two INTs were oddballs. One was a tipped pass with a SCar defender at the right spot for the pick 6. That's a lot of luck for them. The other was TB trying to save a play and instead of scrambling or throwing away on 3rd down he tried to keep the play alive. That's being over eager. If you watched the Orange Bowl, Clemson's true frosh QB took a sack on the 10 yard line with 10 seconds left in the first half and no timeout because he tried to scramble. That ran out the clock. It happens to young QBs who play hero ball but you live and learn.
  3. He missed some short passes in the flat because of his arm angle (which he corrected). But you can't tell me the long pass to Thomas on the left sideline and the TD pass to Evans weren't beautifully placed tight spirals that are easily catchable. That's the flash of potential that shows he's got the skills to compete.
  4. His legs are dynamic. It's been so long since I've seen him run I honestly thought we were overvaluing that ability coming into the game. But that first TD was great and his second one even better. He juked and outran some really good and athletic defenders.
  5. Other than the INTs (I know, I can't just dismiss those), how many plays did we say, that was a terrible decision and he got lucky? Not many if at all.
  6. On the contrary, he threw up since really catchable balls to Colzie on the right sideline second half but the SCar DB played it well. The ball to Meriwether was beautiful and catchable but he just lost it in the lights.
  7. I thought he was remarkably calm in this game - he didn't rush too many throws and he bounced back over and over again. I don't think I saw what you mean by not having any bit of Zen. I think he was calm under pressure and didn't link bad plays back to back. I think he actually showed a lot of strength in that this game.
  8. If you look at second half Spencer Rattler, he was not good. Our defense did a good job on him but he made bad throws and bad decisions. The arm talent is breathtaking, but I didn't doubt that Tyler was the better second half QB yesterday even with his mistakes. I would say think about that - he outplayed the former #1 QB in the class that second half with his arms and legs. And it wasn't particularly close.

I think you are forgetting that he's only had about 5 or 6 games of playing time on the college level, with only 4 extended stretches. That's a redshirt year amount and no live game action in 3 months. "Loose Cannon" is not how I would have described TB after this game - occasionally inconsistent and rusty, yes absolutely. But if you removed TB and instead saw another hypothetical redshirt freshman come in and play that exact game with the exact same results I have to imagine you would think there's potential there. I also suggest watching Clemson in the Orange Bowl. I guarantee that they would have LOVED to have Tyler as their QB yesterday.

I just suggest waiting a bit more before writing him off I'm more excited after the end of that game for his long term development than I was going into the Ohio State game
 
Old Man Mike

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"Outright dismissive of his longterm potential.""--- that commentary does NOT appear in my post.
But, to interpret my post one needs to take all the elements of it into consideration, which admittedly we're not good at here.

The post sketches the scenario where TB does not play as a starter for ND because the other QBs have the mental traits under fire that TB has not only not demonstrated yet but has spectacularly not done so. The post does not presume that TB is not sufficiently talented in lots of ways, nor that he won't go elsewhere to play, and gradually get the wild yips out of his system. NONE OF THAT IS BEING OUTRIGHT DISMISSIVE of this athlete. Notre Dame is pressured to WIN NOW, and if there are choices to not have to wait until "growing pains" subside (and games are lost) then it is the job of Coach Marcus to play the guy who will win now.
 
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Old Man Mike said:
"Outright dismissive of his longterm potential.""--- that commentary does NOT appear in my post.
But, to interpret my post one needs to take all the elements of it into consideration, which admittedly we're not good at here.

The post sketches the scenario where TB does not play as a starter for ND because the other QBs have the mental traits under fire that TB has not only not demonstrated yet but has spectacularly not done so. The post does not presume that TB is not sufficiently talented in lots of ways, nor that he won't go elsewhere to play, and gradually get the wild yips out of his system. NONE OF THAT IS BEING OUTRIGHT DISMISSIVE of this athlete. Notre Dame is pressured to WIN NOW, and if there are choices to not have to wait until "growing pains" subside (and games are lost) then it is the job of Coach Marcus to play the guy who will win now.
Click to expand...

Mike, I'm not attacking you and I'll rephrase the outright dismissive phrase as a poor choice of words in my mini novel. Sometimes, one runs out of words to give without sounding repetitive! As I wrote, I really respect your opinion on all matters here.

I am not advocating for Tyler to start over Sam Hartman if/when he comes to ND. I 100% agree that win now is the prerogative and Hartman would be the clear choice.

I also couldn't say that Minchey and Carr would be definitively better than TB immediately upon arrival based solely on HS performance. I keep referencing Cole Klubnick who had all of the traits under fire you could want in HS (3x Texas State football champion) but even he does not have that poise immediately. Bryce Young sat a year before starting at Alabama. Even the most highly touted need time.

If Tyler stays around in 2024, he will be in his 4th year of the system and have lots more in-game experience. It's just my opinion that he did show enough growth in these last 3 months to think the program would still be in good hands - and maybe that's where our opinions differ and that's ok by me. I don't think we've seen the last of Tyler as QB1 in that case. He could be an excellent option and ND would be in good QB hands. A room of Kenny Minchey and CJ Carr who could develop at that point would set ND up for offensive success AND succession for years to come.
 
IrishLion

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Might be Green Colored Glasses, but it seemed to me like TB got better with every series yesterday.

Even when he was making catastrophic mistakes, his play between those mistakes got better and better.

Idk if I agree with OMM that he’s too much chaos and not enough zen. My theory is that he saw yesterday as an opportunity to both audition for QB1 in 2023, and to make up for lost time. He was treating every pass play like it was boom-or-bust almost, so he pressed with he normally should have lived to fight another day.

I get the argument that he kind of has played that way in every game he’s appeared… but to be honest, the games in which he’s played have almost all been do-or-die for one reason or another.

He got to play against Purdue and Stanford last year in comfortable-ish circumstances, otherwise all of his appearances have seen him trying to make big plays in close games when the offense was lacking them. He doesn’t really know anything else yet.

TL;DR
I think TB12 will continue to get better with reps, there is plenty of time for him to learn when to both control OR embrace the chaos, and 2023 might be okay with him, even if Hartman weren’t coming in.
 
C

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spoonidentity said:
I'm going to respectfully disagree, OMM. I didn't see out of control cannon today but I did see rust, loose mechanics, and trying a bit too hard on some plays. I'm honestly surprised given how measured you are with your other comments that I almost always agree with that you are being so outright dismissive of Tyler's long term potential.

  1. Pick 6 on the goal line was a case of him not seeing the safety or locking in on Mitchell Evans - who they REALLY wanted to give a TD to today. TB forced that throw and that's a mistake. Questionable play calling but I think they really wanted to give Mitch a TD after not having any catches on the season coming in.
  2. The other two INTs were oddballs. One was a tipped pass with a SCar defender at the right spot for the pick 6. That's a lot of luck for them. The other was TB trying to save a play and instead of scrambling or throwing away on 3rd down he tried to keep the play alive. That's being over eager. If you watched the Orange Bowl, Clemson's true frosh QB took a sack on the 10 yard line with 10 seconds left in the first half and no timeout because he tried to scramble. That ran out the clock. It happens to young QBs who play hero ball but you live and learn.
  3. He missed some short passes in the flat because of his arm angle (which he corrected). But you can't tell me the long pass to Thomas on the left sideline and the TD pass to Evans weren't beautifully placed tight spirals that are easily catchable. That's the flash of potential that shows he's got the skills to compete.
  4. His legs are dynamic. It's been so long since I've seen him run I honestly thought we were overvaluing that ability coming into the game. But that first TD was great and his second one even better. He juked and outran some really good and athletic defenders.
  5. Other than the INTs (I know, I can't just dismiss those), how many plays did we say, that was a terrible decision and he got lucky? Not many if at all.
  6. On the contrary, he threw up since really catchable balls to Colzie on the right sideline second half but the SCar DB played it well. The ball to Meriwether was beautiful and catchable but he just lost it in the lights.
  7. I thought he was remarkably calm in this game - he didn't rush too many throws and he bounced back over and over again. I don't think I saw what you mean by not having any bit of Zen. I think he was calm under pressure and didn't link bad plays back to back. I think he actually showed a lot of strength in that this game.
  8. If you look at second half Spencer Rattler, he was not good. Our defense did a good job on him but he made bad throws and bad decisions. The arm talent is breathtaking, but I didn't doubt that Tyler was the better second half QB yesterday even with his mistakes. I would say think about that - he outplayed the former #1 QB in the class that second half with his arms and legs. And it wasn't particularly close.

I think you are forgetting that he's only had about 5 or 6 games of playing time on the college level, with only 4 extended stretches. That's a redshirt year amount and no live game action in 3 months. "Loose Cannon" is not how I would have described TB after this game - occasionally inconsistent and rusty, yes absolutely. But if you removed TB and instead saw another hypothetical redshirt freshman come in and play that exact game with the exact same results I have to imagine you would think there's potential there. I also suggest watching Clemson in the Orange Bowl. I guarantee that they would have LOVED to have Tyler as their QB yesterday.

I just suggest waiting a bit more before writing him off I'm more excited after the end of that game for his long term development than I was going into the Ohio State game
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Agree strongly with all of this.
 
FightingIrishLover7

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IrishLion said:
TL;DR
I think TB12 will continue to get better with reps, there is plenty of time for him to learn when to both control OR embrace the chaos, and 2023 might be okay with him, even if Hartman weren’t coming in.
Click to expand...
His confidence (which was already much higher than I expected to start the game) grew like crazy throughout the game
(defense also got more swaggy throughout game).

TBs style of play is so "impromptu" that I think a consistent rhythm for him is important. Give that man more games and more reads and he's going to ball out. Truly looks like a backyard brawler playing out there.
 
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