'14 NY OT/SDE Jay Hayes (Notre Dame Signee)

[arrowryan]

If true, Trumbetti could get passed by two younger Hayes. Hope he finds a way to be a player, because ideally Jay Hayes would take Rochelle's spot next year, and Hayes/Trumbetti run the week side next year.

Bonner? Kareem?

 

[ND Fan Vancouver]

Personally, I've long felt that what we need to be successful is to commit to a huge, physical DL where the emphasis is not on "rushing the passer" but rather physically dominating the OL and stopping the run. Our run defense -- not our pass defense -- is really what got us killed last year, despite all the breakdowns in coverage thanks primarily to bad safety play.

If you line up your four most physical guys, they might not generate QB hurries like Joey Bosa, but they will clog running lanes and on passing downs they'll often physically collapse the pocket. Then when you want pressure, you dial up blitzes from various LB positions... something BVG's defense is actually well designed to do. Also, on 3rd down, you can run a sub package to get pass rushers on the field (Daelin Hayes, Trumbetti, etc.) that will be fresh.

The problem is that this type of defense puts tons of pressure on your DBs to cover on 1st and 2nd down, and our DBs haven't really shown the ability to do that, especially with the issues at safety. The reason why Bama has been able to so successfully play a 3-4 where they don't rely on the "3" for pass rush is because they're typically loaded at DB... so they force teams into 3rd and long, and then when they try to throw they get a lot of negative plays and turnovers.

Anyways, I support a move by the coaches to make us as strong as possible against the run given that the toughest teams we will play this year (Stanford, USC, MSU, Texas) are all going to rely heavily on running the ball.

Very very good and interesting insight. I hadn't thought this way before. I really like this whole idea. I know we don't have Jaylon anymore but we will be more athletic across the board at LB and and they should be able to generate more pressure on the QB this year. The BIG thing this year is that we should have solid Safety play. I believe in Max. Tranquil seems very sound and is intelligent(Mechanical Engineering major). Both of their athleticism is very high. Especially Max. Again, great post. Great thoughts. Maybe you should be the new DC!

 

[koonja]

Bonner? Kareem?

Bonner will probably never be a player at ND. Kareem, maybe. But Jay Hayes is already the size of a SDE.

 

[JD Irish]

Personally, I've long felt that what we need to be successful is to commit to a huge, physical DL where the emphasis is not on "rushing the passer" but rather physically dominating the OL and stopping the run. Our run defense -- not our pass defense -- is really what got us killed last year, despite all the breakdowns in coverage thanks primarily to bad safety play.

If you line up your four most physical guys, they might not generate QB hurries like Joey Bosa, but they will clog running lanes and on passing downs they'll often physically collapse the pocket. Then when you want pressure, you dial up blitzes from various LB positions... something BVG's defense is actually well designed to do. Also, on 3rd down, you can run a sub package to get pass rushers on the field (Daelin Hayes, Trumbetti, etc.) that will be fresh.

The problem is that this type of defense puts tons of pressure on your DBs to cover on 1st and 2nd down, and our DBs haven't really shown the ability to do that, especially with the issues at safety. The reason why Bama has been able to so successfully play a 3-4 where they don't rely on the "3" for pass rush is because they're typically loaded at DB... so they force teams into 3rd and long, and then when they try to throw they get a lot of negative plays and turnovers.

Anyways, I support a move by the coaches to make us as strong as possible against the run given that the toughest teams we will play this year (Stanford, USC, MSU, Texas) are all going to rely heavily on running the ball.

I think that the only problem with this, though, is that dual-threat QBs will be able to really burn us, either throwing from outside the pocket, or straight up running/scrambling for first downs and longer runs.

 

[TheRealLynch51]

I think that the only problem with this, though, is that dual-threat QBs will be able to really burn us, either throwing from outside the pocket, or straight up running/scrambling for first downs and longer runs.

Not necessarily. If you have a stout defensive line, and can push the pocket while shutting down those interior running lanes for a scrambling QB, then it can be seen as beneficial. Lately however, mobile QBS have been gashing us because he leave running lanes wide open when we rush the QB.

 

[IrishLax]

I think that the only problem with this, though, is that dual-threat QBs will be able to really burn us, either throwing from outside the pocket, or straight up running/scrambling for first downs and longer runs.

Well, one thing that's tricky is that you're absolutely correct that a lot of the defenses that play this way (see: Alabama, Notre Dame under Diaco, etc.) are significantly less effective against teams with mobile QBs. The main reason is that the QBs are prone to pick up a few yards when something isn't there versus take a negative/nothing play, so they don't end up in 3rd and long... and they can pick up a 3rd and medium with their legs, too. Additionally, extending plays means your DBs have to cover for longer and longer which inevitably means you can have breakdowns/big plays.

However, against designed running plays as well as improvisation athletic DEs don't really help that much... in fact, a lot of the biggest improvised plays come from them over-rushing and losing contain or from getting bullied out of position by a tackle. And on designed runs, usually it's the DE that gets double-blocked by the TE and OT, so size and strength and the ability to shed is again a premium.

So ultimately, success in defending mobile QBs comes from 1) keeping them in the pocket 2) LBs being athletic and wrapping up tackles 3) DBs covering for long lengths of time. None of those are really predicated on having athletic, pass-rushing DEs that can get to the QB on his drop back.

 

[Luckylucci]

FWIW, I found that 247 post to be incredibly hypocritical. A week back a poster started a thread basically asking if there were any updates on how players looked during summer workouts. The entire 247 staff essentially laughed at the idea that you can gain any relevant information from summer workouts and that it's essentially pointless to speculate.

Then, flash forward to the present and Loy comes out with all this "Intel" on summer workouts and speculation about players that are ready to emerge and starting positions. I posted as much in that thread on their board. Not saying it isn't or won't be true but I'm definitely not taking any of it to heart, especially from Loy.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

The coaches are advancing Jay Hayes as the leader for starting at WDE. It's widely spoken, clearly sourced, and well known I believe. And it's no secret. Not even close.

This is a factor of advances in spring practice, gains in knowledge, technique, and leadership. Plus a flat out willingness to take responsibility for his own level of play.

This kid is for real, was out of place as a 3Tech, came in to play DE, (how soon they forget, even if it was for a 3-4,) and has amazing feet and quickness for a guy his size.

One step further, if he does start with Jones, Tillery, and Rochell, that may be one of the biggest, if not the biggest defensive lines in the nation. And they don't really give up speed or quickness to anybody.

Break out year for Isaac Rochell? Where have you been? The guy has played very well each of his first three years. Last year he was a force at SDE and when they brought him inside.

He received acclaim for his season around the country and that has continued this preseason. He is on the Bronco Nagurski Trophy watch-list.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Bonner will probably never be a player at ND. Kareem, maybe. But Jay Hayes is already the size of a SDE.

Face palm Koon. Not going to go into all the difference reasons you are wrong here.


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[ND Fan Vancouver]

The coaches are advancing Jay Hayes as the leader for starting at WDE. It's widely spoken, clearly sourced, and well known I believe. And it's no secret. Not even close.

This is a factor of advances in spring practice, gains in knowledge, technique, and leadership. Plus a flat out willingness to take responsibility for his own level of play.

This kid is for real, was out of place as a 3Tech, came in to play DE, (how soon they forget, even if it was for a 3-4,) and has amazing feet and quickness for a guy his size.

One step further, if he does start with Jones, Tillery, and Rochell, that may be one of the biggest, if not the biggest defensive lines in the nation. And they don't really give up speed or quickness to anybody.

Break out year for Isaac Rochell? Where have you been? The guy has played very well each of his first three years. Last year he was a force at SDE and when they brought him inside.

He received acclaim for his season around the country and that has continued this preseason. He is on the Bronco Nagurski Trophy watch-list.

When I said break out regarding Rochell I meant that he's going to blow up and play even better. Reach his full potential as a fourth year senior. I know very well how good he's been. Rochell has played very well the last three years.

 

[Crazy Balki]

If Hayes had came into ND as a WDE and has been there ever since, then I would completely agree with you. But the fact that he has never played the position before at a high level and has a strong chance of beating out a guy that has played since day 1 doesn't sound good for Andrew. There are have been some really positive reports on Jay saying he's looked great but holy shit, Andrew better start playing with a sense of urgency because the better Hayes and Okwara will be breathing down his neck soon too

That's not entirely accurate though. Trumbetti missed most of the last offseason with multiple injuries and then when he did get on the field last season, it was at Strong-Side DE, not weak side, where he was mostly ineffective, not surprising given his size.

Fall camp has yet to come, but it sounds more like Jay Hayes is just that good and has come that far along. Trumbetti isn't athletic enough to overcome a lack of technique. He really needs to show Gilmore that he can do more than just bullrush through tackles to get to the QB. Hayes can do that and do it far more effectively given he's 30 pounds bigger. I don't think Trumbetti is necessarily doing poorly, more so Hayes is just balling out right now.

 

[fightingirish26]

I don't get how hayes could overtake trumbetti before fall camp even started, so I'm gonna say they're making something out of nothing

 

[Crazy Balki]

Not necessarily. If you have a stout defensive line, and can push the pocket while shutting down those interior running lanes for a scrambling QB, then it can be seen as beneficial. Lately however, mobile QBS have been gashing us because he leave running lanes wide open when we rush the QB.

This. In addition to a virtually non-existent pass rush threat at MIKE, is a huge reason why BVG's scheme was mostly ineffective last year. It's paramount that the guys up front develop better discipline when shooting the gaps. It's important to get penetration, but it's just as important to not overshoot and leave your defense off-balance for a shiftier back to exploit and take to the 2nd or 3rd level of the defense.

I think the scheme can be effective, given the proper disciplines are coached properly.

 

[koonja]

Face palm Koon. Not going to go into all the difference reasons you are wrong here.


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You think Bonner will ever be good at ND?

 

[IrishLion]

The coaches are advancing Jay Hayes as the leader for starting at WDE. It's widely spoken, clearly sourced, and well known I believe. And it's no secret. Not even close.

This is a factor of advances in spring practice, gains in knowledge, technique, and leadership. Plus a flat out willingness to take responsibility for his own level of play.

This kid is for real, was out of place as a 3Tech, came in to play DE, (how soon they forget, even if it was for a 3-4,) and has amazing feet and quickness for a guy his size.

One step further, if he does start with Jones, Tillery, and Rochell, that may be one of the biggest, if not the biggest defensive lines in the nation. And they don't really give up speed or quickness to anybody.

Break out year for Isaac Rochell? Where have you been? The guy has played very well each of his first three years. Last year he was a force at SDE and when they brought him inside.

He received acclaim for his season around the country and that has continued this preseason. He is on the Bronco Nagurski Trophy watch-list.

That's not entirely accurate though. Trumbetti missed most of the last offseason with multiple injuries and then when he did get on the field last season, it was at Strong-Side DE, not weak side, where he was mostly ineffective, not surprising given his size.

Fall camp has yet to come, but it sounds more like Jay Hayes is just that good and has come that far along. Trumbetti isn't athletic enough to overcome a lack of technique. He really needs to show Gilmore that he can do more than just bullrush through tackles to get to the QB. Hayes can do that and do it far more effectively given he's 30 pounds bigger. I don't think Trumbetti is necessarily doing poorly, more so Hayes is just balling out right now.

That's a whole lot of info and surmising about some guys that haven't even started fall camp haha.

 

[ulukinatme]

That's literally a defensive line composed entirely of interior players...

Well, to be fair Jay was originally recruited as a DE in a 3-4, but on the other hand most true 3-4 DEs are big enough to play DT in a 4-3. That said...this group should have no problem shutting down running plays inside, but I'd be wary of off tackle/pitch stuff if they can't keep contain, and pass rush may still be an issue.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Well, to be fair Jay was originally recruited as a DE in a 3-4, but on the other hand most true 3-4 DEs are big enough to play DT in a 4-3. That said...this group should have no problem shutting down running plays inside, but I'd be wary of off tackle/pitch stuff if they can't keep contain, and pass rush may still be an issue.

I guess we'll just have to see. I don't think anyone anticipated us having as good of a pass rush as we had with 3 guys who were all well over 300 pounds in Tuitt, Nix and Kap. I think our success against the off-tackle and read option-type plays will be determined by how disciplined our guys play in space. I also anticipate that we'll run a good bit in a 3-down set, with the DIME. That would likely be more effective against read-option looks. I have little doubts that Rochell and Hayes can hold their own at the DE spots, and if Jarron and Cage are healthy, they can be a solid tandem at the zero in certain looks.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

You think Bonner will ever be good at ND?

Yes.

That's a whole lot of info and surmising about some guys that haven't even started fall camp haha.

Is it? Everything I repeated in my post, came out of Gilmore, BVG, Elston, or Kelly's mouth via official press release, video, or reported by other employees of the University.

Nothing I stated about Hayes is single sourced. Pete Samson will tell you more; ask him.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Regarding Bonner, it's way too early to write him off Koon. He hasn't made an impact in his first 2 years, but that was expected. He was going to be a project coming in and needed time to develop.

I don't think anyone is expecting him to be a dominant award-hording defensive lineman, but he can certainly give us a quality product and be a good DE for us.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

'14 NY OT/SDE Jay Hayes (Notre Dame Signee)

Regarding Bonner, it's way too early to write him off Koon. He hasn't made an impact in his first 2 years, but that was expected. He was going to be a project coming in and needed time to develop.

I don't think anyone is expecting him to be a dominant award-hording defensive lineman, but he can certainly give us a quality product and be a good DE for us.

Exactly. He is a redshirt sophomore. Koon originally stated he will never see the field. And that's just not true as he saw the field as second string last year and not just in garbage time but meaningful action.

In response to do I think he will be a good player? Yes. Do I think he will be a star? No. But, he will at the least be a productive rotational player and spot starter.

Note: The coaches raved about him during the 2015 fall camp.


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[woolybug25]

There are plenty of guys that evolve into studs for one year. Happens across college football every year. If a kid has really good physical tools, a good work ethic and great coaching... Then I don't count em out until they are done.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Koon. Why do you only think that Kareem maybe a good player?

The kid was a top 200 player. He dominated his all star game. And was committed to Alabama at one time.


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[woolybug25]

Koon. Why do you only think that Kareem maybe a good player?

The kid was a top 200 player. He dominated his all star game. And was committed to Alabama at one time.


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No shit. The kid's ceiling is through the roof.

 

[dwshade]

All I know is during his FR. year Brian Kelly made a comment that Jay Hayes was going to be a very good player at some point. Maybe that time is now.

 

[jspags10pg]

There are plenty of guys that evolve into studs for one year. Happens across college football every year. If a kid has really good physical tools, a good work ethic and great coaching... Then I don't count em out until they are done.

Agreed. No one knew who Michael Sam was until his final year and then he became a boner-crushing, sack master and plugged up lanes for guys who carried balls. He had quite the coming out party after a mediocre career until that point.

But for real, Bonner could still become a very good player. His offer and commitment came out of nowhere after the coaches saw him in person. They obviously saw potential and he has flashed it at times. Plus, the guy still has 3 years of eligibility left.

And back to Hayes...I like the idea of a stout d-line that can shut down the run. Having all that power up front could turn an offense one-dimensional which leads to turnovers. I like the way that sounds and the way LAX outlined it. Hopefully Jay and the others really step up.

Hoping we have a pretty good rotation too this year. Between Rochell, Jones, Tillery, Cage, Hayes, Hayes, Trumbetti, Okwara, Taylor, Bonner, MDT, Kareem and even some of the forgotten guys like Tiassum, Mokwuah, Dickerson, Montelus and whoever else I'm forgetting, I feel like we should have that to some capacity to keep guys fresh and injuries at a minimum.

 

[ulukinatme]

I guess we'll just have to see. I don't think anyone anticipated us having as good of a pass rush as we had with 3 guys who were all well over 300 pounds in Tuitt, Nix and Kap. I think our success against the off-tackle and read option-type plays will be determined by how disciplined our guys play in space. I also anticipate that we'll run a good bit in a 3-down set, with the DIME. That would likely be more effective against read-option looks. I have little doubts that Rochell and Hayes can hold their own at the DE spots, and if Jarron and Cage are healthy, they can be a solid tandem at the zero in certain looks.

I wouldn't exactly say we had a stifling pass rush on the line when Tuitt, Nix, and Kap were our front. Tuitt had some good sack numbers in 2012, but most of those sacks came against the weaker opponents on the schedule. He racked up only 1.5 sacks against the ranked teams we faced, and 0 against Alabama, Oklahoma, and USC. I'd be curious how many of his 2012 numbers came off coverage sacks too. The linemen in a 3-4 aren't typically setup to provide a pass rush, they're there to stuff the run and eat up blockers to allow the LBs to make plays. Not saying Tuitt was a poor player, far from it. Just saying the linemen in a 3-4 aren't typically tasked with providing a pass rush unless it's a passing down, and for the most part they weren't really a factor outside of that. I certainly wouldn't put Nix or Kap in that boat.

 

[BobbyMac]

Agreed. No one knew who Michael Sam was until his final year and then he became a boner-crushing, sack master and plugged up lanes for guys who carried balls. He had quite the coming out party after a mediocre career until that point.

But for real, Bonner could still become a very good player. His offer and commitment came out of nowhere after the coaches saw him in person. They obviously saw potential and he has flashed it at times. Plus, the guy still has 3 years of eligibility left.

And back to Hayes...I like the idea of a stout d-line that can shut down the run. Having all that power up front could turn an offense one-dimensional which leads to turnovers. I like the way that sounds and the way LAX outlined it. Hopefully Jay and the others really step up.

Hoping we have a pretty good rotation too this year. Between Rochell, Jones, Tillery, Cage, Hayes, Hayes, Trumbetti, Okwara, Taylor, Bonner, MDT, Kareem and even some of the forgotten guys like Tiassum, Mokwuah, Dickerson, Montelus and whoever else I'm forgetting, I feel like we should have that to some capacity to keep guys fresh and injuries at a minimum.

 

[STLDomer]

I guess we'll just have to see. I don't think anyone anticipated us having as good of a pass rush as we had with 3 guys who were all well over 300 pounds in Tuitt, Nix and Kap. I think our success against the off-tackle and read option-type plays will be determined by how disciplined our guys play in space. I also anticipate that we'll run a good bit in a 3-down set, with the DIME. That would likely be more effective against read-option looks. I have little doubts that Rochell and Hayes can hold their own at the DE spots, and if Jarron and Cage are healthy, they can be a solid tandem at the zero in certain looks.

Tuitt was also a elite DE built for the 3-4 whereas Hayes appears for now at least unproven and a little out of place as a 4-3 WDE.

 

[arrowryan]

A pretty good story about Jay's early struggles adjusting to college life. I never knew he was that close to transferring.

A new balancing act for Notre Dame DE Jay Hayes | Notre Dame Insider Football | ndinsider.com

 

[irishff1014]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Kelly: "Jay Hayes had zero reps. That can’t happen."</p>— BlueandGold.com (@BGInews) <a href="https://twitter.com/BGInews/status/780803029528375296">September 27, 2016</a></blockquote>
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