Fatal shooting Charleston SC

[Whiskeyjack]

This brings up a curious point with me... Does anyone see a problem with the selling of a nazi flag (meaning like a little hand sized one), along with every other WWII flag, at a museum for those who collect all sorts of WWII stuff? I honestly don't know if I would even think twice about it in that circumstance, just like I wouldn't think twice if I was in some guy's library that had a ton of WWII memorabilia in it and some of the items had swastikas on them...

I think there's an important distinction between "memorabilia" and "merchandise" here. The former can be valuable insofar as it is an accurate replica of an important historical item. The latter can too easily be interpreted as a an endorsement of what the symbol represents.

So I see no problem with a museum selling replicas of Nazi memorabilia. But t-shirts, belt buckles and snapbacks that feature the Swastika? I definitely wouldn't want to see such things being sold by a public institution. Which pretty neatly mirrors the dichotomy between depictions of the Confederate Battle Flag for historical purposes (re-enactments, museums, historical replicas, Civil War games, etc.) and crass merchandising.

 

[ulukinatme]

Speaking of the Dukes of Hazzard, looks like Ben Jones who played "Cooter" on the show had some things to say about the Battle Flag...in all caps nevertheless:

The Dukes Of Hazzard’s “Cooterâ€� has something to say about that battle flag · Newswire · The A.V. Club

 

[ACamp1900]

Speaking of the Dukes of Hazzard, looks like Ben Jones who played "Cooter" on the show had some things to say about the Battle Flag...in all caps nevertheless:

Just to make sure no one thought he was joking.....

 

[ACamp1900]

I'm on board with removing the flag from government property but something like this right here is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. How does selling a video game based on REAL LIFE EVENTS aka the Civil War promote racism via using the actual flag within the game?

https://games.yahoo.com/news/apple-removing-app-store-games-140619696.html



What are we going to do next...take Gone with the Wind DvDs off the shelf???

True story, I have been thinking about purchasing this game for a while now... you can buy it straight form the developer though correct??

 

[pkt77242]

I'm on board with removing the flag from government property but something like this right here is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. How does selling a video game based on REAL LIFE EVENTS aka the Civil War promote racism via using the actual flag within the game?

https://games.yahoo.com/news/apple-removing-app-store-games-140619696.html



What are we going to do next...take Gone with the Wind DvDs off the shelf???

This bothers me. One of my favorite games growing up was Civil War Generals 2Civil War Generals 2 - www.sierragamers.com.

 

[wizards8507]

True story, I have been thinking about purchasing this game for a while now... you can buy it straight form the developer though correct??

$15 on Steam.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

 

[wizards8507]

Meanwhile, on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Che-Guevara-T...pebp=1435257017073&perid=11DM31SK4EWTMRQPPGS1

 

[pkt77242]

I think there's an important distinction between "memorabilia" and "merchandise" here. The former can be valuable insofar as it is an accurate replica of an important historical item. The latter can too easily be interpreted as a an endorsement of what the symbol represents.

So I see no problem with a museum selling replicas of Nazi memorabilia. But t-shirts, belt buckles and snapbacks that feature the Swastika? I definitely wouldn't want to see such things being sold by a public institution. Which pretty neatly mirrors the dichotomy between depictions of the Confederate Battle Flag for historical purposes (re-enactments, museums, historical replicas, Civil War games, etc.) and crass merchandising.

I agree almost completely. The one thing that I might add, is I don't think that I would like Swastika memorabilia being sold at Auschwitz's museum (or a museum at any concentration camp). Now having display items at the museum with Swastikas would be fine.

 

[connor_in]

Just for information sake (this was pointed out to me just in the last year or so)...the swastika had a looooong history of good meaning before becoming the symbol of one of the most hated regimes in all of history.

History of the Swastika

The Oldest Known Symbol

The swastika is an ancient symbol that has been used for over 3,000 years. (That even predates the ancient Egyptian symbol, the Ankh!) Artifacts such as pottery and coins from ancient Troy show that the swastika was a commonly used symbol as far back as 1000 BCE.




During the following thousand years, the image of the swastika was used by many cultures around the world, including in China, Japan, India, and southern Europe. By the Middle Ages, the swastika was a well known, if not commonly used, symbol but was called by many different names:
•China - wan
•England - fylfot
•Germany - Hakenkreuz
•Greece - tetraskelion and gammadion
•India - swastika

Though it is not known for exactly how long, Native Americans also have long used the symbol of the swastika.

The Original Meaning

The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.

Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck.

Even in the early twentieth century, the swastika was still a symbol with positive connotations. For instance, the swastika was a common decoration that often adorned cigarette cases, postcards, coins, and buildings.


During World War I, the swastika could even be found on the shoulder patches of the American 45th Division and on the Finnish air force until after World War II.

Just FYI...

 

[Bishop2b5]

I am not trying to silence anyone. I would love to have an open debate with someone who was a racist about any of these topics.

How about having an open debate or discussion with someone who isn't racist, but whose views differ from yours or someone who has a different opinion on what works? Throughout this thread you've made a number of assertions and posited facts which were anything but accurate, then defined what is and isn't racist, and then labeled everyone who questioned your assertions or facts, or didn't completely agree with your opinion about all of it as a racist. Hardly a step towards an open dialogue or an open mind.

I myself attempted several months ago to open an honest, civil discussion about the issue but it went nowhere. You made no attempt to participate, discuss anything, or hear my views (or anyone else's), yet you're quite quick to assume you know my mind and heart and label me or anyone else who doesn't fall into lockstep with your opinions as clearly an evil bigot and racist.

There's a very common (and quite accurate) joke among Conservatives: What's the definition of a racist? Anyone who disagrees with a liberal.

You and Jughead have exemplified the truth of that joke all too well. Jughead can't help it, doesn't have the intelligence to refute a differing opinion, and is incapable of doing more than just immediately falling back on such tactics. You are, though. I expected better of you.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Just for information sake (this was pointed out to me just in the last year or so)...the swastika had a looooong history of good meaning before becoming the symbol of one of the most hated regimes in all of history.

History of the Swastika

Just FYI...

I'm glad you brought that up, connor, as it's relevant to a hypothetical I've been toying with recently. As I mentioned on the last page, the average state in the American Deep South is roughly 25% African-American. Conveniently for this thought experiment, 25% of the people living in New York City are Jewish.

Let's assume that New York City adopts the Swastika as part of its municipal flag. When challenged on it, supporters concede that: "Yes, the Nazis were evil, but we're not anti-semites. To us, the Swastika represents only 'good fortune' and 'well-being'. All that atrocity and genocide is ancient history anyway. It's a harmless symbol now, honest!"

Is that a convincing argument? Because that's how most defenders of government association with the Confederate Battle Flag come across. The Swastika is as deeply offensive to Jews as the Confederate Battle Flag is to African-Americans. It's a tainted symbol, and the good intentions of some don't come close to compensating for the offense it gives to those who suffered under it.

 

[GoldenDome]

Interesting that the white background was designed for white supremacy.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/XdKVGI_LbsM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[ACamp1900]

You know what I learned today that I did find somewhat odd and telling... Richmond's monument park has statue's of each of the four core leader's of the Army of NV with one exception... I'll give you one guess...


**EDIT** After letting it digest, is it possible that the other three are actually FROM Virginia and Longstreet is not??? I guess that would be reasonable enough...

 

[Emcee77]

You know what I learned today that I did find somewhat odd and telling... Richmond's monument park has statue's of each of the four core leader's of the Army of NV with one exception... I'll give you one guess...


**EDIT** After letting it digest, is it possible that the other three are actually FROM Virginia and Longstreet is not??? I guess that would be reasonable enough...

Nailed it.

 

[pkt77242]

You know what I learned today that I did find somewhat odd and telling... Richmond's monument park has statue's of each of the four core leader's of the Army of NV with one exception... I'll give you one guess...


**EDIT** After letting it digest, is it possible that the other three are actually FROM Virginia and Longstreet is not??? I guess that would be reasonable enough...

I know that Longstreet is not from Virginia (I believe he was from S.C.)

 

[ACamp1900]

I know that Longstreet is not from Virginia (I believe he was from S.C.)

Born in SC, from UGA...

 

[ACamp1900]

I'm now seeing a lot of movement to ban Gone with the Wind... smh... sorry, I'm not on board with that one at all...

 

[gkIrish]

I'm now seeing a lot of movement to ban Gone with the Wind... smh... sorry, I'm not on board with that one at all...

I was joking earlier....Is this serious????

 

[ACamp1900]

I was joking earlier....Is this serious????

Google GWtW

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I'm now seeing a lot of movement to ban Gone with the Wind... smh... sorry, I'm not on board with that one at all...

Those motivated by compassion for our African-American citizens seem content with a very modest proposal-- ending government association with the Confederate Battle Flag. But there are plenty of SJWs motivated by ideology instead, who are using this issue to predictably grind their favorite political axes.

I've seen nothing but criticism of such organizations (like Apple, pulling all Civil War related games from the App Store) thus far, so sanity should prevail. Still, these people are dangerous.

 

[Cackalacky]

Not sure how much this is out there but Nikki Haley is taking a lot of flack for the flag. She was until recently well beloved by conservatives here. Now many people are saying she isn't a real southerner and doesn't understand the history. She is also facing some fairly ugly critiques based on her race. I saw a particularly nasty and completely erroneous commentary by Ann Coulter. Truly repugnant.

 

[JughedJones]

How about having an open debate or discussion with someone who isn't racist, but whose views differ from yours or someone who has a different opinion on what works? Throughout this thread you've made a number of assertions and posited facts which were anything but accurate, then defined what is and isn't racist, and then labeled everyone who questioned your assertions or facts, or didn't completely agree with your opinion about all of it as a racist. Hardly a step towards an open dialogue or an open mind.

I myself attempted several months ago to open an honest, civil discussion about the issue but it went nowhere. You made no attempt to participate, discuss anything, or hear my views (or anyone else's), yet you're quite quick to assume you know my mind and heart and label me or anyone else who doesn't fall into lockstep with your opinions as clearly an evil bigot and racist.

There's a very common (and quite accurate) joke among Conservatives: What's the definition of a racist? Anyone who disagrees with a liberal.

You and Jughead have exemplified the truth of that joke all too well. Jughead can't help it, doesn't have the intelligence to refute a differing opinion, and is incapable of doing more than just immediately falling back on such tactics. You are, though. I expected better of you.

There are certain topics that don't necessitate a debate. You can go on and on all you like about how you're a reasonable dude trying to have a discussion. You're defending racism, and some of your posts have been definitionly racist.

I'm sorry, but if you want to discuss the merits of socialized medicine, we can have a debate. But if you want to get in the middle of heritage v hatred, you should be called on it. And let's not forget your awesome unsolicited advice for the father raising his African American son. You told him to make sure he's not lazy or to play the victim. If that's not the very epitome of racism, I don't know what is.

 

[GoldenDome]

Not sure how much this is out there but Nikki Haley is taking a lot of flack for the flag. She was until recently well beloved by conservatives here. Now many people are saying she isn't a real southerner and doesn't understand the history. She is also facing some fairly ugly critiques based on her race. I saw a particularly nasty and completely erroneous commentary by Ann Coulter. Truly repugnant.

Would you expect anything less from Coulter? She claimed that racism is not an issue in America anymore. She is probably causing a stir just to sell more of her new book.

 

[ulukinatme]

I'm now seeing a lot of movement to ban Gone with the Wind... smh... sorry, I'm not on board with that one at all...

I was joking earlier....Is this serious????

Google GWtW

The whole world has gone nuts and overboard with the political correct crusade. It's been a couple decades since I've seen it, but does GwtW promote slavery? It shows slavery in a historical context, some of it being accurate and some of it not, but holy crap it's a movie about a woman and the fucking drama she caused in the South during the Civil War. Of course there will be slaves, would it be accurate if they weren't there? A lot of people like to use the Nazi flag in comparisons to the Confederate flag, which may be fair in some contexts, but if you're doing a movie about WWII would you omit any references to the Nazis? Do we destroy any and all media that depicts slavery? It's back to the witch hunt.

 

[pkt77242]

I was joking earlier....Is this serious????

Google GWtW

The whole world has gone nuts and overboard with the political correct crusade. It's been a couple decades since I've seen it, but does GwtW promote slavery? It shows slavery in a historical context, some of it being accurate and some of it not, but holy crap it's a movie about a woman and the fucking drama she caused in the South during the Civil War. Of course there will be slaves, would it be accurate if they weren't there? A lot of people like to use the Nazi flag in comparisons to the Confederate flag, which may be fair in some contexts, but if you're doing a movie about WWII would you omit any references to the Nazis? Do we destroy any and all media that depicts slavery? It's back to the witch hunt.

To be fair, when I Google "Gone with the Wind" I get one article calling for it to go away (from the New York Post) and many items from conservative websites talking about the witch hunt. I am not seeing any real movement to ban Gone with the Wind besides one person from the New York Post. Much ado about nothing. Well unless some more crazy people hop on that train.

ETA: Yep, I went two pages deep and only one person (the guy from the New York Post) called for it to be banned.

EATA: Wait the bottom of page 2 has an article from Huffington Post about getting rid of it. Another idiot. Though to be fair his post is from 6/24 so he was the first idiot.

 

[ACamp1900]

This afternoon there were a number of articles calling for it... By time gk asked, the nyt one was the only one I could easily find,... Just sayin

 

[BGIF]

Not sure how much this is out there but Nikki Haley is taking a lot of flack for the flag. She was until recently well beloved by conservatives here. Now many people are saying she isn't a real southerner and doesn't understand the history. She is also facing some fairly ugly critiques based on her race. I saw a particularly nasty and completely erroneous commentary by Ann Coulter. Truly repugnant.

It's a fair assumpion that most adult immigrants don't know a lot about the American Civil War. But the children of immigrants BORN IN THE U.S.A. like Nikki Haley and raised in American schools like Nikki Haley do accumulate sum knowledge even if only by osmosis.

I suspect Haley a product of a small town South Carolina elementary school and high school, and a S.C. college (Clemson) had more exposure to the War of Yankee Agression than Coulter who was born in New York City, raised in Connecticut and went to an Ivy League college, Cornell, followed by Michigan Law School. Coulter might have read about the Civil War; Haley got to relive it growing up. I did business in S.C. in the 80's and 90's. One hundred and thirty years later a lot of people were still embittered.

 

[Cackalacky]

It's a fair assumpion that most adult immigrants don't know a lot about the American Civil War. But the children of immigrants BORN IN THE U.S.A. like Nikki Haley and raised in American schools like Nikki Haley do accumulate sum knowledge even if only by osmosis.

I suspect Haley a product of a small town South Carolina elementary school and high school, and a S.C. college (Clemson) had more exposure to the War of Yankee Agression than Coulter who was born in New York City, raised in Connecticut and went to an Ivy League college, Cornell, followed by Michigan Law School. Coulter might have read about the Civil War; Haley got to relive it growing up. I did business in S.C. in the 80's and 90's. One hundred and thirty years later a lot of people were still embittered.

All of the above is very true. Growing up here we had a whole year class in high school on just SC history. I am not sure if other states do that with their respective states but we covered every major event in America from SC's perspective. We spent a good portion of that time on the Civil War and Confederation. Its highly likely that Nikki Haley has just as good an idea than most outside of this state.

Its sad because I don't really like her as a governor, but the state has been doing as well as I can remember economically and to see some of the words bandied about since last week is awful. I just used the Anne example in case anyone saw it as opposed to the mouth breathers on my FB feed. It was preposterous and downright awful.

 

[BGIF]

The whole world has gone nuts and overboard with the political correct crusade. It's been a couple decades since I've seen it, but does GwtW promote slavery? It shows slavery in a historical context, some of it being accurate and some of it not, but holy crap it's a movie about a woman and the fucking drama she caused in the South during the Civil War. Of course there will be slaves, would it be accurate if they weren't there? A lot of people like to use the Nazi flag in comparisons to the Confederate flag, which may be fair in some contexts, but if you're doing a movie about WWII would you omit any references to the Nazis? Do we destroy any and all media that depicts slavery? It's back to the witch hunt.

GTW promotes the myth that the Civil War was a noble cause to preserve a genteel life style where parties were frequent and Mint Juleps in silver goblets obligatory. That it was built on the back of generations of slaves was merely a minor sidebar to the story. Big Sam and the "workers" at Tara got 3 squares a day plus all the Ben & Jerry's they could eat, they worked 9-5 with hourly breaks, got cradle to grave housing, clothing, education, vacations, and healthcare and sometimes the relatives got sold off but only as a necessity to kept the Julep cups full. If it wasn't for that nasty Yankee overseer who was fired for consorting with the "hired help" all would have been perfect on Tara ... or so the movie shows.

Why would anyone want their freedom with all that benevolent care a laborer for the O'Hara's got?

Was the "meeting" that Mr. Wilks, Scarlett's second husband, and the good doctor went to, too subtle for you? Or their nightriding raid on the camp by the bridge not clear because they weren't shown wearing sheets?

Another Genteel action like The War ... caused by the Yankees.

Did Scarlett's hiring practices for the lumber company strike you as humane? Mr. Wilkes mentions to Scarlett, "We didn't treat slaves this badly." It was Peonage ... convict labor at minimal wages and minimal food and housing is still slavery. It was outlawed in 1867 but it didn't stop Scarlett or many other post war industrialists for the next 6 DECADES.

Margeret Mitchell wrote a proganda piece couched in a soap opera that Joseph Geobels must have envied. Hollywood sanitized it. It's a hosed down version of Birth of a Nation. And four generations of movie goers swallowed it.


The comparison to the Nazis is quite apt. The 1000 Year Reich was built on oppression; slave labor like The South. Supremacy.

It's exciting to watch Saving Private Ryan but Schindler's List is just as much a part of WWII as any action flick. I've been to Dachau. In Germany, Nazi paraphernalia is illegal.

 

[gkIrish]

GTW promotes the myth that the Civil War was a noble cause to preserve a genteel life style where parties were frequent and Mint Juleps in silver goblets obligatory. That it was built on the back of generations of slaves was merely a minor sidebar to the story. Big Sam and the "workers" at Tara got 3 squares a day plus all the Ben & Jerry's they could eat, they worked 9-5 with hourly breaks, got cradle to grave housing, clothing, education, vacations, and healthcare and sometimes the relatives got sold off but only as a necessity to kept the Julep cups full. If it wasn't for that nasty Yankee overseer who was fired for consorting with the "hired help" all would have been perfect on Tara ... or so the movie shows.

Gone with the Wind is definitely not the most accurate depiction of the South during the Civil War but it's a movie! Let's give it credit for placing black actors and actresses in fairly prominent roles in 1939.