#WrongSkin

[Booslum31]

Yuck!

 

[wizards8507]

Why do you keep referring to transgender people as "delusional"?

If you are a man and think you are a woman, Jesus Christ, or the Easter bunny, you are delusional.

ETA: That's not to say that they're not worthy of respect or sympathy. But the correct treatment is psychotherapy, not genital mutilation. And every shred of research backed that up until it became a political issue.

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[notredomer23]

Anyhow, delusional white dudes made race a big deal a long time ago, so that's why it is now a big deal and yes it is subject to the whims of delusion (usually by those in law enforcement). To

Classic. Of course its the white man's fault racism exists.

 

[Grahambo]

If you are a man and think you are a woman, Jesus Christ, or the Easter bunny, you are delusional.

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Agreed.

 

[IrishLax]

Why do you keep referring to transgender people as "delusional"?

Anyhow, delusional white dudes made race a big deal a long time ago, so that's why it is now a big deal and yes it is subject to the whims of delusion (usually by those in law enforcement). To

It's cute you actually believe that. That's like the #1 lie you read from Social Justice Warriors... that racism is a white construct.

Pretty much every civilization in the history of mankind has shown racism when given the opportunity. Asian cultures are incredibly racist, in Africa tribal racism leads to genocide, in biblical times Egyptians practiced racial slavery... and on and on and on. It's rooted in xenophobic and tribal instincts of primates.

But yeah, those damn white dudes are the ones who made it a big deal long ago... if it weren't for them, no one on this globe would be a bigot.

 

[BobbyMac]

I think I'm going to apply to business school as a lesbian Hispanic woman.

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...add your wheelchair and you're in.

 

[BobbyMac]

It's cute you actually believe that. That's like the #1 lie you read from Social Justice Warriors... that racism is a white construct.

Pretty much every civilization in the history of mankind has shown racism when given the opportunity. Asian cultures are incredibly racist, in Africa tribal racism leads to genocide, in biblical times Egyptians practiced racial slavery... and on and on and on. It's rooted in xenophobic and tribal instincts of primates.

But yeah, those damn white dudes are the ones who made it a big deal long ago... if it weren't for them, no one on this globe would be a bigot.

He who has the most must have transgressed the most. Their battle cry.

 

[pkt77242]

It's cute you actually believe that. That's like the #1 lie you read from Social Justice Warriors... that racism is a white construct.

Pretty much every civilization in the history of mankind has shown racism when given the opportunity. Asian cultures are incredibly racist, in Africa tribal racism leads to genocide, in biblical times Egyptians practiced racial slavery... and on and on and on. It's rooted in xenophobic and tribal instincts of primates.

But yeah, those damn white dudes are the ones who made it a big deal long ago... if it weren't for them, no one on this globe would be a bigot.

Well, you both are right on different scales, while you are correct that just about every group is biased towards it ingroup and biased against its outgroup (Japan during WWII is a great example of that), in the US the biggest perpetrator of racism would be white people (and probably white males though I haven't seen enough research to state that unequivocally) and no they didn't invent it, but in the U.S. they are more responsible then not for it happening.

So basically, I think you are taking his comment out of context, Bluto didn't claim that white people in the US are the only people to ever be rascist, just that they are most likely to do it in a way that we witness on a day to day basis (well at least for those of us living in the US).

 

[pkt77242]

In all seriousness, can one of our progressive IE brothers succinctly articulate why sex is subject to the whims of delusion but race is not?

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This post and some of your previous ones in other threads show that you have no real interest in listening to the other side. You are hardly starting with an open mind.

 

[Irish#1]

If you are a man and think you are a woman, Jesus Christ, or the Easter bunny, you are delusional.

ETA: That's not to say that they're not worthy of respect or sympathy. But the correct treatment is psychotherapy, not genital mutilation. And every shred of research backed that up until it became a political issue.

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No matter what Bruce Jenner does, he's still got that Y chromosome.

 

[Rhode Irish]

In all seriousness, can one of our progressive IE brothers succinctly articulate why sex is subject to the whims of delusion but race is not?

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I generally think of myself as progressive but I cannot get behind any of this nonsense. I literally shake my damn head at all these things, knowing who is behind them and how that is going to set back worthwhile causes by years. To be fair, though, serious thinking progressive want to be associated with this stuff about as much as serious thinking conservatives want to be associated with the Duggars and Rick Santorum.

 

[wizards8507]

This post and some of your previous ones in other threads show that you have no real interest in listening to the other side. You are hardly starting with an open mind.

Au contraire. I honest-to-goodness don't see any difference between pick-your-own gender and pick-your-own race. Both are biological FACTS that the contra-identifier is seeking to deny. One is accepted and even applauded (including by my employer for all of you who think I'm blindly pro-everything-ESPN). The other is dismissed as ridiculous. I ask again, what's the difference?

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[NDgradstudent]

Just so everyone understands: getting a new hairdo, a tan, and saying that you feel black is not enough to make you black, but getting a new hairdo, putting on a dress, and feeling like a woman is enough to make you a woman. Being a victim is so valuable in today's America that many people will go to great lengths to become one.

The oppression Olympics are getting competitive, and the rules are extremely confusing. You had better keep up to date and follow them, though, or be smitten by the media-SJW complex.

 

[WestCoast]

Turns out her boyfriend may not have been black either

 

[pkt77242]

Au contraire. I honest-to-goodness don't see any difference between pick-your-own gender and pick-your-own race. Both are biological FACTS that the contra-identifier is seeking to deny. One is accepted and even applauded (including by my employer for all of you who think I'm blindly pro-everything-ESPN). The other is dismissed as ridiculous. I ask again, what's the difference?

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So I will talk about why I think it might be a real thing (not saying it for sure is) and then a more personal story why I am sympathetic too it.

1. Can we both agree that a male's brain and a female's brain is different? https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders

If you can agree that a male's brain and female's brain is different, how is it not possible that someone could be born with a body of male and a brain that is more female (wired like a female, different chemical make-up, different processing, etc)?

If that is possible wouldn't that make them a male externally (sex organs) and a female mentally (by brain structure and function)?

So yes it might be easier to say that they are a male because they have a penis (which is pretty damn easy to tell), it might not be how they feel because their brain is saying something different, all without them being delusional, crazy, etc. They might literally be a male and a female (just not in a way that we can see).

2. The personal story is that one of my fraternity brothers from college is now a female. It definitely make you look at it differently when you see someone who was never comfortable in their own skin, find peace (she is post-op) and to find a purpose (she is really into helping other transgendered people and to fight laws that discriminate against them). Obviously personal experience is very different from factual information or proven through research information but the research lately has been encouraging including the fact that FtM that receive hormone therapy are less likely to commit suicide then the general population (especially when in general transgendered individuals are significantly more likely to commit suicide then the general population) and they also report increased happiness and satisfaction.

Here is what I would say, I think it will be interesting to see what the next 10-15 years of research shows on this topic.

 

[GoIrish41]

The "brother" of a friend of my daughter's has gender identity issues. I can say that "he" was a tortured soul for most of his life. Going through the hormone treatments has given "him" a new lease on life. This shit is weird to many of us, but who else is being hurt. If she wants or needs to be a man, why should I care? Why should anyone be forced to be something they are not? I am creeped out by the whole prospect but whether "he" is called John or Jane does not have a single consequence to my life. This is all part of the pursuit of happiness, whether we understand it or not.

 

[PANDFAN]

You can't understand until you are in their shoes..

 

[DCIrish]

It's cute you actually believe that. That's like the #1 lie you read from Social Justice Warriors... that racism is a white construct.

Pretty much every civilization in the history of mankind has shown racism when given the opportunity. Asian cultures are incredibly racist, in Africa tribal racism leads to genocide, in biblical times Egyptians practiced racial slavery... and on and on and on. It's rooted in xenophobic and tribal instincts of primates.

But yeah, those damn white dudes are the ones who made it a big deal long ago... if it weren't for them, no one on this globe would be a bigot.

None of that changes the fact that this country has an ugly history when it comes to race and white people are pretty much responsible for it.

 

[phork]

None of that changes the fact that this country has an ugly history when it comes to race and white people are pretty much responsible for it.

Kill whitey!

 

[ACamp1900]

What country has any kind of rich diversity without having an ugly history with it? Not excusing anything but I'm tired of the myopic, 'America sucks' dialogue on race...it gets plenty worse, and few have done it much better

 

[pkt77242]

What country has any kind of rich diversity without having an ugly history with it? Not excusing anything but I'm tired of the myopic, 'America sucks' dialogue on race...it gets plenty worse, and not much better

Two things, one I have never heard anyone say "America sucks", so lets keep it factual. What people are saying is that "America" can do better and should do better. There is nothing wrong with that. We should hold our country to higher standards. We should strive to be better, we should strive to remove as much racism/sexism/ageism, etc. as possible.

A great article
The new threat: 'Racism without racists' - CNN.com

Here is an interesting poll (and by interesting I mean scary as fucking shit).
AP poll: U.S. majority have prejudice against blacks

 

[Black Irish]

I can self-identify as a multi-millionaire all I want; it doesn't mean I can afford a Ferrari and a beach front home in Malibu.

 

[Bishop2b5]

This afternoon I screwed my neighbor's 15-year-old hot-to-trot daughter. When her dad called the police I just told 'em I self-identified as a teenage boy and that if they messed with me I'd call them close-minded neo-Nazi fascist oppressors. That did the trick. I then shit on my neighbor's lawn and when he got mad, I just barked at him and jumped over the hedge back into my own yard. This self-identifying thing is great!

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

"I sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter. Ever since I was a boy I dreamed of soaring over the oilfields dropping hot sticky loads on disgusting foreigners. People say to me that a person being a helicopter is Impossible and I'm fucking retarded but I don't care, I'm beautiful. I'm having a plastic surgeon install rotary blades, 30 mm cannons and AMG-114 Hellfire missiles on my body. From now on I want you guys to call me "Apache" and respect my right to kill from above and kill needlessly. If you can't accept me you're a heliphobe and need to check your vehicle privilege. Thank you for being so understanding."

 

[wizards8507]

None of that changes the fact that this country has an ugly history when it comes to race and white people are pretty much responsible for it.

No, the category "white people" is not responsible for it. Specific individuals are responsible for it. Those individuals are dead.

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[wizards8507]

So I will talk about why I think it might be a real thing (not saying it for sure is) and then a more personal story why I am sympathetic too it.

1. Can we both agree that a male's brain and a female's brain is different? https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders

If you can agree that a male's brain and female's brain is different, how is it not possible that someone could be born with a body of male and a brain that is more female (wired like a female, different chemical make-up, different processing, etc)?

If that is possible wouldn't that make them a male externally (sex organs) and a female mentally (by brain structure and function)?

So yes it might be easier to say that they are a male because they have a penis (which is pretty damn easy to tell), it might not be how they feel because their brain is saying something different, all without them being delusional, crazy, etc. They might literally be a male and a female (just not in a way that we can see).

2. The personal story is that one of my fraternity brothers from college is now a female. It definitely make you look at it differently when you see someone who was never comfortable in their own skin, find peace (she is post-op) and to find a purpose (she is really into helping other transgendered people and to fight laws that discriminate against them). Obviously personal experience is very different from factual information or proven through research information but the research lately has been encouraging including the fact that FtM that receive hormone therapy are less likely to commit suicide then the general population (especially when in general transgendered individuals are significantly more likely to commit suicide then the general population) and they also report increased happiness and satisfaction.

Here is what I would say, I think it will be interesting to see what the next 10-15 years of research shows on this topic.

1. We don't get to redefine words that have had the same meaning since the dawn of language based on fleeting political whims. "Male" means penis and Y-chromosome. It has nothing to do with brain chemistry. Feeling feminine does not make you a female.

2. I think your friends' friends and family did him a disservice. If someone believes a falsehood, it's no kindness to perpetuate that falsehood and encourage mutilating one's body in the pursuit thereof.

3. You still haven't explained why all the logic you laid out wouldn't apply to transabled people (who cut off limbs because they identify as disabled) or this faux-black woman. Why do you believe that gender contra-identification is legitimate but this woman is so far off base?

4. Consider the case of a suicidal person. I'm not talking about a transgendered person, just someone who sincerely believes the world would be a better place if they were dead. Is the right thing to try and identify and heal the source of their pain, or should we just concede that they're right and buy them a gun?

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[NDgradstudent]

The "brother" of a friend of my daughter's has gender identity issues. I can say that "he" was a tortured soul for most of his life. Going through the hormone treatments has given "him" a new lease on life on life. This shit is weird to make at home of us, but who else has s being hurt. If she wants or needs to be a man, why should I care? Why should anyone be forced to be something they are not? I am creeped out by the whole prospect but whether "he" is called John or Jane does not have a single consequence to my life. This is all part of the pursuit of happiness, whether we understand it or not.

I readily concede that some people have this disorder, even those who are born with unambiguous genitalia. If you want to get a sex-change operation, go ahead, but as a taxpayer I must not be forced to pay for your surgery. If you do not want to get a sex-change operation but simply want to call yourself a woman, go ahead, but I must not be legally obliged to continue to employ you in my business, nor must my child be told that his classmate is a woman when he is actually a man, etc. The entire existence-precedes-essence claim behind this sort of "self-definition" is incoherent, as this case illustrates.

There are very few actions that are wholly inconsequential to other people's lives. The question is: which consequences is the government willing to accept and subsidize/mandate? If we lived in a Cato Institute-run society, none of this would matter, but we don't. We live in a heavily regulated administrative state where the government directly or indirectly controls the schools, tons of money, health-care operations, most businesses, non-profits, etc.

In this woman's case, posing as black means a massive benefit in university admissions (including of course at ND), hiring, government contracts, general victim points to be used before liberal legislators and most of the press, and so on. Given that there is a limited supply of benefits to be spread around, I am not surprised that other blacks are upset by this. Most of them probably believe (correctly) that you cannot simply switch your race in this way. The problem is that they almost all support a political party that is committed both to the idea that you can switch your sex at whim and that endorses affirmative action for a bunch of supposedly oppressed groups. So you can hardly blame self-loathing liberal whites like this woman for trying to get a piece of the action.

 

[Rhode Irish]

I just want to distance myself a little from some of the more seemingly intolerant posts here. As a progressive, these identity issues aren't of paramount importance to me and I wish we would deemphasize them a bit because they don't impact a great number of people. However, my personal feeling toward trans-whatever people is that they can and should do whatever they want to feel like they are living their best life. You only get one life, so I'm not going to stand in judgment of how people want to live theirs unless it is hurting someone else.

 

[ThePiombino]

I just want to distance myself a little from some of the more seemingly intolerant posts here. As a progressive, these identity issues aren't of paramount importance to me and I wish we would deemphasize them a bit because they don't impact a great number of people. However, my personal feeling toward trans-whatever people is that they can and should do whatever they want to feel like they are living their best life. You only get one life, so I'm not going to stand in judgment of how people want to live theirs unless it is hurting someone else.

Hit the nail on the head. I'm a little surprised at some of the intolerance being displayed in this thread. It's surprisingly disappointing.

 

[greyhammer90]

I find it weird that this thread became a "explain yourselves on the gender identity progressives" conversation. Firstly because I thought "gender identity is still a controversial thing to people other than my grandparents?" Secondly because I would've thought it was obvious that at least one difference is that the chemical make up of a woman's brain versus a man's brain is scientifically very different, so when one has the other it must less a "delusion" than a person who wants to change race... Because there is no chemical difference between the brains of races.*

Either way am I conservative, liberal, or progressive for saying I don't care so long as whoever does it is happy with themselves? Obviously there are some social concerns with people taking advantage of certain racially based affirmative action programs but if the people who do this further the dismantling of those programs more power to them I guess.


*that I'm aware of, please correct me if I'm wrong