A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

IrishLax

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That was crazy! Someone help my memory because I can't find my book but it wasn't Jon that went to Hardhome in DwD, right? Wasnt it Cotter Pyke?

Yeah, and Jon receives a letter from Pyke that says something like "Dead in the woods, dead in the water" indicating that they're fighting/got besieged by the army of the dead. He stays behind which is how he gets stabbed in the mutiny at Castle Black.
 

NDinMich

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Yeah, and Jon receives a letter from Pyke that says something like "Dead in the woods, dead in the water" indicating that they're fighting/got besieged by the army of the dead. He stays behind which is how he gets stabbed in the mutiny at Castle Black.

That's it, thanks.
 

IrishSteelhead

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Just picked up the first book. Wanted to share that information, and I'll contribute more to this thread in 2020 when I am caught up.
 

Emcee77

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That was so damn amazing. Most exciting episode of TV I have seen in a while.
 

IrishLax

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I'd like to start a discussion on the timeline of the Night's King with respect to the Wall and the last time the Others seriously invaded Westeros.

What we know...

Pre-Wall (Age of Heroes)
-Others start some ruckus and are eventually driven back by the Children of the Forest and humans.
-It is still slightly unclear to me if the post-Night's King "Others" are the exact same as these pre-wall Others.
-IMO, it can be concluded by the fact that the Children helped the humans AND are currently helping Bloodraven/Bran north of the Wall that the Old Gods and the Others are parties in direct opposition.

Post-Wall (Age of Heroes)
-The wall goes up. Allegedly constructed by humans (with help from Children?) but I and many others think the Others might've put it up as a "DMZ" of sorts marking the territory of each party.
-The Night's Watch is established.
-The 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch becomes the Night's King after finding a female "Other" of some sort north of the wall and sexing her up. He "gives his soul" to her and they rule as King+Queen from the Nightfort until the Wildlings and Night's Watch team up and defeat them.
-It is rumored that this Lord Commander was a Stark... possibly named Bran.
-After the Night King's defeat, it is found that he was sacrificing to the Others... presumably changing babies into White Walkers like what we saw on the show awhile ago.

Post-Wall (Recent)
-After a lonnnnggggg time now from when he first ruled the Nightfort and was subsequently defeated, the Night's King now has an army of reanimated dead + White Walker lieutenants.
-He is marching south on the wall.
-He can turn any mostly intact corpse into a soldier, and can covert a newborn directly into a White Walker.

Here are my questions:
1. What happened to the Night's King's "Queen?" Was she vanquished or did she retreat with him? I miss if this was ever spelled out explicitly.
2. What does everyone make of the Great Other that Melissandre always talks about existing as the polar to R'Hlorr?
3. Do we think the Night's King is the head honcho? Or are there more proto-Others pre-Night's King off somewhere that are either above him on the food chain OR completely independent of his little campaign? Remember, the Night's King is a human convert so there MUST have been Others pre-dating him and it's hard to imagine they were all wiped circa the Wall going up.

BONUS QUESTION: Are there no more female Others besides the one the Night's King found? Remember, Craster only gave up boys to be turned. And we've yet to encounter any sort of female White Walker.
 

ClausentoTate

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I might not be up on the nomenclature, but a wildling woman was converted after the battle was over last night. Does she count as a female whitewalker?
 

wizards8507

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I might not be up on the nomenclature, but a wildling woman was converted after the battle was over last night. Does she count as a female whitewalker?
No she's a wight. The Others (aka White Walkers) are the intelligent glowing ones that can only be killed with obsidian or Valyrian steel. The wights are the skeleton/zombie ones that humans turn into when they're killed.
 

drake29

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Anyone else think the pause after John killed the white walker hung on a little to long? I know it's because he used his Valyrian blade to do the trick instead of dragon glass BUT...IMO the stare down by the Night's King just seems to give more reinforcement to the idea that Jon is the Prince That Was Promised and his sword is Lightbringer.
 

Huntr

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12 hrs later, I'm still jazzed. That was an awesome ep in every way.

To the point where if Jon isn't AA/TPTWP, I'm probably gonna be let down.
 

wizards8507

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Anyone else think the pause after John killed the white walker hung on a little to long? I know it's because he used his Valyrian blade to do the trick instead of dragon glass BUT...IMO the stare down by the Night's King just seems to give more reinforcement to the idea that Jon is the Prince That Was Promised and his sword is Lightbringer.
Why would Lightbringer be the ancestral sword of house Mormont?
 

ND NYC

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best episode in entire series IMO.

last 15 min were ridiculous!

I thought Nights King was going to freeze the river and walk out...ps what an epic staredown.

ive said this before, I think the show is basically "editing" the books at this point and cutting right to the chase on all the major plot points. not sure how I feel about this almost want to stop watching until all books are done but after last night if it wasn't before the show is must see tv. can't not watch it.

ps if the show can pull off an episode like last night no need for a movie (as has been rumored). they absolutely crushed that Hardhome scene. unreal.

little pissed that ole Sam basically gave the kid an out to go ahead and stab/kill Jon
 

Whiskeyjack

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Why would Lightbringer be the ancestral sword of house Mormont?

The most credible theories I've read on this subject indicate that an existing Valyrian steel blade will likely become Lightbringer, instead of the original from the Age of Heroes being rediscovered. So Longclaw is no less likely than any other famous VS sword out there (more likely than most, actually, since it belongs to Jon).

I'm partial to the theory that it'll end up being Oathkeeper. Lady Stoneheart will make Jaime and Brienne fight (Jaime demands trial by combat, unCat names Brienne as her champion, etc.) Brienne sacrifices herself, ends up with Oathkeeper through her heart, and her love for Jaime transforms the blade into Lightbringer just as Nissa Nissa's did for Azor Ahai.
 
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Emcee77

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The most credible theories I've read on this subject indicate that an existing Valyrian steel blade will likely become Lightbringer, instead of the original from the Age of Heroes being rediscovered. So Longclaw is no less likely than any other famous VS sword out there (more likely than most, actually, since it belongs to Jon).

I'm partial to the theory that it'll end up being Oathkeeper. Lady Stoneheart will make Jaime and Brienne fight (Jaime demands trial by combat, unCat names Brienne as her champion, etc.) Brienne sacrifices herself, ends up with Oathkeeper through her heart, and her love for Jaime transforms the blade into Lightbringer just as Nissa Nissa's did for Azor Ahai.

Ooh I like that theory too.

So where do people read these theories? Is there one site in particular? Or many sites you all frequent? My knowledge of most of these theories comes from reading this site. I love you guys, but I may as well cut out the middleman.
 

wizards8507

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So where do people read these theories? Is there one site in particular? Or many sites you all frequent? My knowledge of most of these theories comes from reading this site. I love you guys, but I may as well cut out the middleman.
I think Whiskey gets much of his stuff from reddit. I like the Forum of Ice and Fire at Westeros.org. The main theories are summarized most thoroughly at Tower of the Hand.
 

ND NYC

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so im clear: Nights King (in his former life) was a Stark (who went North of the wall, hooked up with an Other chick), right?

besides the "oh shit they can kill us with certain swords" stare he gave from the mountain top do u think in any way he realized the guy who did it was a descendant of his? or is all human emotion, etc gone from them?
 

wizards8507

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The most credible theories I've read on this subject indicate that an existing Valyrian steel blade will likely become Lightbringer, instead of the original from the Age of Heroes being rediscovered. So Longclaw is no less likely than any other famous VS sword out there (more likely than most, actually, since it belongs to Jon).
Two interesting sword theories I've seen.

1. Dawn is Lightbringer. Kind of self-explanatory. Dawn. Lightbringer. Dawn brings light. Get it? Jon Snow could wield Dawn as the Sword of the Morning if it turns out that R+L=J is not true and he's actually the son of Ashara Dayne.

2. Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail will be reforged into a Stark greatsword, but the red coloring that Tobho Mott worked into the blade will refuse to come out because "the steel remembers." Ice will be reborn as Fire. The problem with this theory is that nobody of any plot significance could actually wield a sword that large.
 

IrishLax

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so im clear: Nights King (in his former life) was a Stark (who went North of the wall, hooked up with an Other chick), right?

besides the "oh shit they can kill us with certain swords" stare he gave from the mountain top do u think in any way he realized the guy who did it was a descendant of his? or is all human emotion, etc gone from them?

That's what the history of him is at this point.

Semi-related... nobody even going to try to answer my questions from last page?
 

IrishLax

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Two interesting sword theories I've seen.

1. Dawn is Lightbringer. Kind of self-explanatory. Dawn. Lightbringer. Dawn brings light. Get it? Jon Snow could wield Dawn as the Sword of the Morning if it turns out that R+L=J is not true and he's actually the son of Ashara Dayne.

2. Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail will be reforged into a Stark greatsword, but the red coloring that Tobho Mott worked into the blade will refuse to come out because "the steel remembers." Ice will be reborn as Fire. The problem with this theory is that nobody of any plot significance could actually wield a sword that large.

WUN WUN IS AZOR AHAI!!!
 

wizards8507

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Semi-related... nobody even going to try to answer my questions from last page?
There's almost certainly a man-behind-the-curtain element of the white walkers and I don't believe that the Night's King is the Great Other. If the wall and Night's Watch were created in response to the others, then the 13th Lord Commander thereof couldn't possibly be the OG. Night's King is the Darth Vader to the Great Other's Palpatine.
 

IrishLax

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There's almost certainly a man-behind-the-curtain element of the white walkers and I don't believe that the Night's King is the Great Other. If the wall and Night's Watch were created in response to the others, then the 13th Lord Commander thereof couldn't possibly be the OG. Night's King is the Darth Vader to the Great Other's Palpatine.

Phil-Modern-Family-Point-and-Thumbs-Up.gif
 

woolybug25

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So wait.... A Stark banged a creepy Other chick back in the day?

That's messed up man...
 

gkIrish

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There was one part of the last half hour that really bothered me and I think it's probably just bad writing but if it's not then it might actually reveal something...

The White Walker Lieutenant dude kills the Thenn while Jon is getting the dragon's glass. Instead of just spearing/killing Jon (whose back is turned and is crouched over), the Walker grabs him and throws him.

Is this just bad writing or does this perhaps reveal that they don't necessarily want to kill Jon? Not sure what the reason for that would be but idk.
 

IrishinSyria

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I feel like Lightbringer has to be a Macguffin. Having a hero ride to the rescue with a blazing sword just doesn't seem like it fits the narrative.
 

IrishLax

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There was one part of the last half hour that really bothered me and I think it's probably just bad writing but if it's not then it might actually reveal something...

The White Walker Lieutenant dude kills the Thenn while Jon is getting the dragon's glass. Instead of just spearing/killing Jon (whose back is turned and is crouched over), the Walker grabs him and throws him.

Is this just bad writing or does this perhaps reveal that they don't necessarily want to kill Jon? Not sure what the reason for that would be but idk.

I'm guessing it's bad writing... the classic "monologuing" villain syndrome in cinema.

Or... it could be as simple as the White Walker looking for "sport". Why else would he even be in the fray? It's like when the White Walker left Sam unscathed in the previous season because he was such a coward that it wasn't worth his while.

Or maybe the White Walker came down to the hut to fight/turn Wun Wun (or just observe the carnage... or get the dragonglass) and was shocked to see two people actually come in and actively try to engage him instead of running away in terror. So he obliges and kills the the Thenn in single combat, and rather than stab Jon in the back he opts to give him a sporting chance at least because why not? He's no threat right? In nature, there are tons of examples of animals that "toy" with prey.
 

IrishinSyria

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I'm guessing it's bad writing... the classic "monologuing" villain syndrome in cinema.

Or... it could be as simple as the White Walker looking for "sport". Why else would he even be in the fray? It's like when the White Walker left Sam unscathed in the previous season because he was such a coward that it wasn't worth his while.

Or maybe the White Walker came down to the hut to fight/turn Wun Wun (or just observe the carnage... or get the dragonglass) and was shocked to see two people actually come in and actively try to engage him instead of running away in terror. So he obliges and kills the the Thenn in single combat, and rather than stab Jon in the back he opts to give him a sporting chance at least because why not? He's no threat right? In nature, there are tons of examples of animals that "toy" with prey.

Yeah, I think it also served to highlight the differences between the white walkers and the thralls. The white walkers are clearly intelligent and even have a bit of dignity to them.
 

wizards8507

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I'd like to start a discussion on the timeline of the Night's King with respect to the Wall and the last time the Others seriously invaded Westeros.

What we know...

Pre-Wall (Age of Heroes)
-Others start some ruckus and are eventually driven back by the Children of the Forest and humans.
-It is still slightly unclear to me if the post-Night's King "Others" are the exact same as these pre-wall Others.
-IMO, it can be concluded by the fact that the Children helped the humans AND are currently helping Bloodraven/Bran north of the Wall that the Old Gods and the Others are parties in direct opposition.

Post-Wall (Age of Heroes)
-The wall goes up. Allegedly constructed by humans (with help from Children?) but I and many others think the Others might've put it up as a "DMZ" of sorts marking the territory of each party.
-The Night's Watch is established.
-The 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch becomes the Night's King after finding a female "Other" of some sort north of the wall and sexing her up. He "gives his soul" to her and they rule as King+Queen from the Nightfort until the Wildlings and Night's Watch team up and defeat them.
-It is rumored that this Lord Commander was a Stark... possibly named Bran.
-After the Night King's defeat, it is found that he was sacrificing to the Others... presumably changing babies into White Walkers like what we saw on the show awhile ago.

Post-Wall (Recent)
-After a lonnnnggggg time now from when he first ruled the Nightfort and was subsequently defeated, the Night's King now has an army of reanimated dead + White Walker lieutenants.
-He is marching south on the wall.
-He can turn any mostly intact corpse into a soldier, and can covert a newborn directly into a White Walker.

Here are my questions:
1. What happened to the Night's King's "Queen?" Was she vanquished or did she retreat with him? I miss if this was ever spelled out explicitly.
2. What does everyone make of the Great Other that Melissandre always talks about existing as the polar to R'Hlorr?
3. Do we think the Night's King is the head honcho? Or are there more proto-Others pre-Night's King off somewhere that are either above him on the food chain OR completely independent of his little campaign? Remember, the Night's King is a human convert so there MUST have been Others pre-dating him and it's hard to imagine they were all wiped circa the Wall going up.

BONUS QUESTION: Are there no more female Others besides the one the Night's King found? Remember, Craster only gave up boys to be turned. And we've yet to encounter any sort of female White Walker.
From Grantland:

Let’s assume that Game of Thrones’s Night’s King is the same person who is referenced in the books (which seems a solid bet at this point). The origins of the Night’s King are shrouded in mystery and shame and stretch back 8,000 years to the fabled Age of Heroes, not long after the Wall was raised by Bran “the Builder” Stark. Some tales say the Night’s King was a Bolton, others say he was a Stark. Or he could’ve been a Skagosi or a Norrey or maybe a member of some forgotten house. Whoever he was, the folktales are specific about a few points. All agree that the Night’s King was once the 13th Lord Commander of the Watch, and that one day, while standing guard atop the Wall, he glimpsed a woman — with skin “white as the moon” and eyes a ghostly blue — in the woods on the far side. Later histories describe her explicitly as being a sorceress. And certainly there must’ve been something enchanting about her, because the Lord Commander’s thirst was such that he came down off the Wall, chased her through the woods, and joined her in an unholy union.

Now, in those days, the Watch was headquartered out of the Nightfort, the oldest and largest of the Watch’s castles. Today, as a result of institutional decay, the Nightfort and all of the Watch’s castles — except for Eastwatch, the Shadow Tower, and Castle Black — are abandoned. We actually saw the Nightfort in Season 3, when Sam and Gilly ran into Bran, Hodor, and the Wonder Twins there after the former group traversed the secret passageway that leads under the Wall and to the well inside the castle. Perhaps that’s how our 13th Lord Commander brought his pale bride back to the Nightfort. Whatever the case, the couple made themselves at home by enslaving the sworn brothers using dark magic. The Lord Commander then declared himself the Night’s King, and with Pale Woman as his queen, they carved out an evil kingdom for themselves, with the Nightfort at its center, and reigned unchecked for 13 terrible years. The North, y’all! Come visit! Foreshadowing the fight to come, it took an alliance between King Brandon “the Breaker” Stark, and the (possible first) King-beyond-the-Wall Joramun to finally break the Night’s King’s power.
Now, here’s where the theory that the Night’s King was/is an ancient member of House Stark gains some credence for me. After the Night’s King’s overthrow, it was discovered that, among other atrocities, he had been making sacrifices to the White Walkers. If the Night’s King were one of the Boltons, the Starks’ ancient enemies, or a member of any other house, great or small, you’d think the Kings in the North would be happy to trumpet that fact far and wide. That didn’t happen. Instead, all the Watch’s records pertaining to the time of the 13th Lord Commander were destroyed. Even speaking his name was forbidden, Voldemort-style. Who else would have the motivation AND the power to suppress the Night’s Watch’s records except the Stark Kings in the North?

All of the above seems to fit the profile of the “Evil King Edgar Winter” we first saw last season taking one of Craster’s infant sons to the heart of winter to turn him, we think, into a baby White Walker. Still, there’s a lot that’s unclear about the Night’s King’s relationship to the White Walkers and the Long Night. As you may remember, the original Long Night was the legendary generations-long winter that fell on the world like a headsman’s ax, under cover of which the White Walkers first appeared on their dead horses to lay waste to Westeros and who knows where else. It was the appearance of the White Walkers that spurred the formation of the Night’s Watch and necessitated the raising of the Wall, meaning the Walkers existed before the Night’s King. Perhaps, as with any other kingdom, there have been numerous Night’s Kings. Perhaps the victory of humanity that ended the Long Night so diminished the White Walkers’ strength that it took the Night’s King sacrificing children for some 8,000 years for them to build up their numbers again. Or perhaps there’s some deeper, natural cycle going on that we don’t understand. Do the Walkers cause the Long Night or vice versa? We don’t know. For me, though, the most interesting question regarding the Night’s King is this: Where’s the Pale Queen?

Ask the Maester: The Origin of the Night’s King, the Wights, and Dragonglass «
 
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