'11 CA DE/OT Troy Niklas (Signed Notre Dame LOI)

[IrishLax]

Exactly. What do some of these people want? Guys who pan out and stake their claim early, or guys who shit the bed and squat the whole time?

People want Stanford. And we had that with Manti, Floyd, Eifert, Martin, etc. all coming back when they could've gone early. At Stanford, they win because they get productive players who stick around for a long time and contribute at a high level. This is what Kelly was able to do with Weis guys, and what he is failing to do with his early classes.

BK was clearly recruiting the wrong kind of guy. Not everyone obviously... lots of great players with good heads on their shoulders. But there is a large portion of recruits where either the pitch he is making is not the right one OR the guys are clearly the wrong guys. Because once they got on campus dream and reality did not equate and it was an obvious ill fit.

2011 had a lot of me-first guys in it. An absolute ton of them. Some washed out immediately as bad fits, and now we have 3 guys leaving early that you could've made varying degrees of a case for them coming back. Niklas leaving is absurd and akin to flushing money down the toilet, and especially odd with him announcing YESTERDAY that he'd be back and never hinting that he'd be gone.

2012 was a disaster. Targeted a bunch of guys who had nowhere close to the ND mindset, and it was a failure on every level.

2013 seems to be the first class where he actually targeted guys who wanted to be at ND and truly fit the ND mold. Even then, he made late game reaches for guys like Vanderdoes... I don't blame him on that though. Got to swing for the fences on someone like that, and were it not for tampering I think he might be at ND. Bryant? Folston? There were definitely some guys who don't fit the mold I ideally want to recruit (see: Corey Robinson, Steve Elmer, etc.) to ND, but so far, so good I guess.

2014 seems like they completely eschewed the headcases save a couple guys. They're obvious who they are.

There is no way someone in Troy Niklas' shoes should be leaving early. This is what happens at dysfunctional schools like USC and Miami where talented guys aren't nearly productive enough in college, get a mid-late round grade, and then bounce as soon as possible. It's not what happens when you recruit team-first guys who are a good fit for the school.

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

Light just burned out in my closet... January 10th is off to a great start!

 

[IrishSteelhead]

Light just burned out in my closet... January 10th is off to a great start!

It gets better: Due to being trapped inside the last 5 days, I managed to polish off the Zombie Dust I had set aside for you. Life can be a cruel bitch bro.....

 

[Rhode Irish]

Lax, forgive me if I am wrong about this, but I feel like you were one of the people that identified years ago that the reason why ND's on-field results weren't squaring with recruiting rankings is that we weren't getting "football first" guys. We got talented guys who were well rounded and cared about school and college life and also happened to play football. Maybe I'm wrong about you saying that, but it was definitely a theory that was posited fairly regularly a couple years ago. And if you have football first guys, sometimes the pursuit of football dreams will trump loving your school so much that you stick around until you have to leave.

 

[Brooklyn]

People want Stanford. And we had that with Manti, Floyd, Eifert, Martin, etc. all coming back when they could've gone early. At Stanford, they win because they get productive players who stick around for a long time and contribute at a high level. This is what Kelly was able to do with Weis guys, and what he is failing to do with his early classes.

BK was clearly recruiting the wrong kind of guy. Not everyone obviously... lots of great players with good heads on their shoulders. But there is a large portion of recruits where either the pitch he is making is not the right one OR the guys are clearly the wrong guys. Because once they got on campus dream and reality did not equate and it was an obvious ill fit.

2011 had a lot of me-first guys in it. An absolute ton of them. Some washed out immediately as bad fits, and now we have 3 guys leaving early that you could've made varying degrees of a case for them coming back. Niklas leaving is absurd and akin to flushing money down the toilet, and especially odd with him announcing YESTERDAY that he'd be back and never hinting that he'd be gone.

2012 was a disaster. Targeted a bunch of guys who had nowhere close to the ND mindset, and it was a failure on every level.

2013 seems to be the first class where he actually targeted guys who wanted to be at ND and truly fit the ND mold. Even then, he made late game reaches for guys like Vanderdoes... I don't blame him on that though. Got to swing for the fences on someone like that, and were it not for tampering I think he might be at ND. Bryant? Folston? There were definitely some guys who don't fit the mold I ideally want to recruit (see: Corey Robinson, Steve Elmer, etc.) to ND, but so far, so good I guess.

2014 seems like they completely eschewed the headcases save a couple guys. They're obvious who they are.

There is no way someone in Troy Niklas' shoes should be leaving early. This is what happens at dysfunctional schools like USC and Miami where talented guys aren't nearly productive enough in college, get a mid-late round grade, and then bounce as soon as possible. It's not what happens when you recruit team-first guys who are a good fit for the school.

Very good post. Losses like Tuitt are expected when there are guys who are projected to go in the first round (and would be good to get those guys to return, but no one swings 1.000 on those guys). But its a back-breaker when you have a guy who is projected in the mid rounds and in all likelihood to be drafted higher by coming back for his senior year to enter the draft. Thats why this one stings.

 

[Pachuco]

It seems as much good that he had brought to ND he is has brought just as much bad.

As someone who is a fan/supporter/advocate of Coach Kelly, the guy is a consummate politician and has made his ambitious nature well known to the public on more than one occasion. He also doesn't cling to old school habits that don't serve his goals. He conducts himself as a businessman, and as top dog, that's going to influence the people you mentor. I've never truly gotten the sense that he is a Notre Dame 'til the end, we're gonna fight-fight-fight, Jesus, Joseph, and Our Lady kinda guy. He wants to win. And in this business, in this society at-large, that often means pulling strings and doing what's best for you. He isn't Lou Holtz. He loves Notre Dame, but it's a different kind of love. And let's face it, this is a different kinda game. College football will never be what it once was, maybe it never truly was, with the rich lore, community feel, and toss the pigskin vibe of days gone by. It's a cutthroat business. The NCAA is a joke. Collegiate standards are a joke. The behind the scenes villainy is very real. And the NFL is the crown jewel of not-giving-a-fuck about the student-athlete. They poach these kids up, drop some money on em (that often doesn't last), and spit em out when they're done.

So if anything, fuck the NFL. This ain't about learning shit. It's about money and the bottomline.

 

[IrishLax]

Lax, forgive me if I am wrong about this, but I feel like you were one of the people that identified years ago that the reason why ND's on-field results weren't squaring with recruiting rankings is that we weren't getting "football first" guys. We got talented guys who were well rounded and cared about school and college life and also happened to play football. Maybe I'm wrong about you saying that, but it was definitely a theory that was posited fairly regularly a couple years ago. And if you have football first guys, sometimes the pursuit of football dreams will trump loving your school so much that you stick around until you have to leave.

0% chance I said that. I've said repeatedly that what we want to do is NOT recruit football-first guys.

 

[Rack Em]

As someone who is a fan/supporter/advocate of Coach Kelly, the guy is a consummate politician and has made his ambitious nature well known to the public on more than one occasion. He also doesn't cling to old school habits that don't serve his goals. He conducts himself as a businessman, and as top dog, that's going to influence the people you mentor. I've never truly gotten the sense that he is a Notre Dame 'til the end, we're gonna fight-fight-fight, Jesus, Joseph, and Our Lady kinda guy. He wants to win. And in this business, in this society at-large, that often means pulling strings and doing what's best for you. He isn't Lou Holtz. He loves Notre Dame, but it's a different kind of love. And let's face it, this is a different kinda game. College football will never be what it once was, maybe it never truly was, with the rich lore, community feel, and toss the pigskin vibe of days gone by. It's a cutthroat business. The NCAA is a joke. Collegiate standards are a joke. The behind the scenes villainy is very real. And the NFL is the crown jewel of not-giving-a-fuck about the student-athlete. They poach these kids up, drop some money on em (that often doesn't last), and spit em out when they're done.

So if anything, fuck the NFL. This ain't about learning shit. It's about money and the bottomline.

This guy gets it. Great post.

 

[Emcee77]

I now recall reading where Luatua has told reporters that he has a shot at getting playing time at ND next year, and at the time I wondered, what the hell is he talking about, with at least two solid senior TEs back? No chance he plays next year. Well, it makes a little more sense now ... there is only one TE returning who has ever played a snap for us.

Incidentally, to the extent anyone is worried about Luatua ditching us, this may help solidify his commitment.

 

[Rhode Irish]

0% chance I said that. I've said repeatedly that what we want to do is NOT recruit football-first guys.

OK, my bad. Wasn't sure, and since I was wrong I'm not sure why I thought that. But it was an argument that was going around. Seems like Kelly might have that approach. Days like today are the result of that.

 

[stlnd01]

Lax, forgive me if I am wrong about this, but I feel like you were one of the people that identified years ago that the reason why ND's on-field results weren't squaring with recruiting rankings is that we weren't getting "football first" guys. We got talented guys who were well rounded and cared about school and college life and also happened to play football. Maybe I'm wrong about you saying that, but it was definitely a theory that was posited fairly regularly a couple years ago. And if you have football first guys, sometimes the pursuit of football dreams will trump loving your school so much that you stick around until you have to leave.

It seems like there's a tricky balance between "football-first" guys and "me-first" guys and well-rounded "ND-type" guys in the program, where we all hope the culture of Notre Dame and the ND-type guys (like Robinson and Elmer) will rub off on the "football-first" types (say, Aaron Lynch or Greg Bryant) and develop them into better versions of themselves who stay four or five years and play at a high level and help us win 11 games and graduate and become solid citizens and early-round draft picks in the NFL with eight-figure contracts. And occasionally it even works out (see Louis Nix, Michael Floyd). Which gives us hope for the future (see Isaiah McKenzie).
But it's a hell of a thing to get all apoplectic towards Brian Kelly when this intricate alchemy of 18-22 year olds goes awry somehow. One thing, though: As Lax said, his approach to recruiting guys who want to be here seems to be evolving in a good direction. Notre Dame's different. Notre Dame should embrace that.

As for Niklas, I agree it's baffling.

 

[NDdomer2]

People want Stanford. And we had that with Manti, Floyd, Eifert, Martin, etc. all coming back when they could've gone early. At Stanford, they win because they get productive players who stick around for a long time and contribute at a high level. This is what Kelly was able to do with Weis guys, and what he is failing to do with his early classes.

BK was clearly recruiting the wrong kind of guy. Not everyone obviously... lots of great players with good heads on their shoulders. But there is a large portion of recruits where either the pitch he is making is not the right one OR the guys are clearly the wrong guys. Because once they got on campus dream and reality did not equate and it was an obvious ill fit.

2011 had a lot of me-first guys in it. An absolute ton of them. Some washed out immediately as bad fits, and now we have 3 guys leaving early that you could've made varying degrees of a case for them coming back. Niklas leaving is absurd and akin to flushing money down the toilet, and especially odd with him announcing YESTERDAY that he'd be back and never hinting that he'd be gone.

2012 was a disaster. Targeted a bunch of guys who had nowhere close to the ND mindset, and it was a failure on every level.

2013 seems to be the first class where he actually targeted guys who wanted to be at ND and truly fit the ND mold. Even then, he made late game reaches for guys like Vanderdoes... I don't blame him on that though. Got to swing for the fences on someone like that, and were it not for tampering I think he might be at ND. Bryant? Folston? There were definitely some guys who don't fit the mold I ideally want to recruit (see: Corey Robinson, Steve Elmer, etc.) to ND, but so far, so good I guess.

2014 seems like they completely eschewed the headcases save a couple guys. They're obvious who they are.

There is no way someone in Troy Niklas' shoes should be leaving early. This is what happens at dysfunctional schools like USC and Miami where talented guys aren't nearly productive enough in college, get a mid-late round grade, and then bounce as soon as possible. It's not what happens when you recruit team-first guys who are a good fit for the school.

i literally just ranted to my cousin about us recruiting guys who don't fit nd culture and it biting us in the ass. weis guys with better junior draft grades stayed. while Kelly guys with worse draft grades leave. it isn't a coincidence.

 

[IrishLax]

OK, my bad. Wasn't sure, and since I was wrong I'm not sure why I thought that. But it was an argument that was going around. Seems like Kelly might have that approach. Days like today are the result of that.

Yeah, this is what I said 6 months ago on recruiting California: http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/not...uiting-nationally-discussion.html#post1013902

I have a problem with them going all in for guys who have a top school list like "Alabama, LSU, Florida, Georgia, ND" because it's an obvious tell that the kid is putting an emphasis on football-first and not what makes ND different. That's just typically asking for trouble down the road.

And here's an oddly telling quote I had months ago in the same thread when Luauta was just popping on the radar and we didn't know a darn thing about his personality/recent antics:

I would completely quit recruiting kids with any kind of baggage, academic issues, or who are other not pre-disposed to ND. I mean... let's be serious, we didn't make EV's original top 15... with a bunch of really crappy schools (including some in the Midwest) making it. That's a red flag. There were red flags all over the cousins. Anyone who wants to commit and still take OVs... nope. Basically any time it turns into a recruiting "war" I'd say pass. But it's worth "knocking on the door" to see if the guy is a perfect fit. Anything short of that I think you pass for a lesser but comparable prospect in a better location. OR you sign a contingency prospect knowing there is a risk. For instance, I'm OK going after Luatua because we have Weishar already + signed two TE in the last class. The risk is minimal.

Before that... maybe a year or two ago... we had a whole thing about recruiting football-first guys or not. I came down squarely on the side of do not recruit somebody just looking for an NFL stepping stone. You're right though that there were a lot of guys who felt the other way.

 

[Ignats]

T.L. ‏@Luatua9 17m
Troy niklas to the draft... Looks like playing time for me👌 time to work for that spot😏 #GoIrish #TightEndU

 

[gkIrish]

Yeah, this is what I said 6 months ago on recruiting California: http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/not...uiting-nationally-discussion.html#post1013902


And here's an oddly telling quote I had months ago in the same thread when Luauta was just popping on the radar and we didn't know a darn thing about his personality/recent antics:


Before that... maybe a year or two ago... we had a whole thing about recruiting football-first guys or not. I came down squarely on the side of do not recruit somebody just looking for an NFL stepping stone. You're right though that there were a lot of guys who felt the other way.

This might be a dumb question, but if we stop recruiting California (which I tend to think is a good idea), is there any point in playing Stanford?

 

[Rhode Irish]

Before that... maybe a year or two ago... we had a whole thing about recruiting football-first guys or not. I came down squarely on the side of do not recruit somebody just looking for an NFL stepping stone. You're right though that there were a lot of guys who felt the other way.

Yeah, I was definitely thinking further back (which is probably why I couldn't recall who was making which argument). I think the timing was coming off of Kelly's second 8-5 season, but I could be mistaken about that, as well.

 

[IrishLax]

Yeah, I was definitely thinking further back (which is probably why I couldn't recall who was making which argument). I think the timing was coming off of Kelly's second 8-5 season, but I could be mistaken about that, as well.

I think you're right. I think it was as the 2012 class began to crumble after that season ended with the bowl loss to FSU. I'm headed to bed, but I'll try to dig that up tomorrow.

 

[Ricochet]

Late to the party. Surprised to say the least. Amado, Enron, Sefarian-Jenkins, will all for sure go ahead of him. He had a lot to gain by coming back. His degree and lots of money via draft.

Wish him the best. Its his life.

Maybe. Never bought into the argument that one must stay if they if they are about higher education and getting a degree because if it means anything to them they will go back and finish.

This isn't aimed at you Irish Man3.

Maybe he's come to the conclusion that the offense since he's been at ND hasn't been good and he's unimpressed with the scheme, play calling and QB play and that even with another season he's not going to be able improve his stock to where he believes his talent is.

I love Niklas upside but the ND offense under Kelly has been crap especially with the talent that ND has yet teams that most of us would laugh at put up monster numbers against that same competition that ND struggled against I think that is the reason to why he's leaving now because he's got the talent but offense probably not going to be much better than it was with Golson the first time around and he will be in the same spot he is now.

I personally think he's got better upside than any other in this draft class and if would've played on a high scoring offense then I think he would've been able to showcase his talents and he would be getting the hype that Eifert received. Eric Ebron is very good and will be the #1 TE taken but if he was at ND this past season in this offense he would be where Niklas is now.

Jace Amaro is a TE in name only. Eifert was flexed out into WR positions often but he also played the actual TE. Amaro in the right system will be a flat-out stud as is Jimmy Graham is for the Saints but they are TE in name only as they aren't traditional pass catching TE's as they are almost exclusively lined up as out and out WR with no real TE duties.

Jenkins will most likely go before him because like I said the ND offense wasn't good and didn't get the ball.

The point is that the talent is there and we know he's going to kill it at the combine.

 

[STLcardz-NDirish]

If we are getting nfl players then good for us. Cause last time I checked Alabama is good as shit and they do that every year. You either have the talent or don't. 1 years isn't going to make you "that" much better

 

[Wild Bill]

Niklas has the size and skill to have a ten year nfl career, regardless of where he's drafted. It was fun watching him play and I wish him the best.

 

[stlnd01]

Yeah, I was definitely thinking further back (which is probably why I couldn't recall who was making which argument). I think the timing was coming off of Kelly's second 8-5 season, but I could be mistaken about that, as well.

Around the time of closing the 2012 class, which was exceptionally talented and exceptionally dramatic, there was lots of discussion around here about going after "football-first" guys. Idea being we needed to upgrade talent at various positions if we hoped to compete at a high level. Swap Robert Blanton and Gary Gray for Ronald Darby and Tee Shepherd. That sort of thing.
I guess you could argue the end results of that 2012 class speak to the wisdom of that strategy (though it did produce our best cover corner in years - in Kevariae Russell), and it's striking the degree to which we've moved away from that. We've loaded up on low-profile, want-to-be here, early commits. Our commits have taken a grand total of like one OV elsewhere. Even the two we've lost left with little drama and for purely personal/family reasons. And have we flipped anyone from comparable programs? (I know, Drue Tranquil and Johnny Williams, but they both stepped up a class to sign with us). Like Lax said, we've gone to war over no one.
Thing is, we won't know which strategy is really the right one until about 2017.

 

[KPENN]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Troy Niklas spoke to Brian Kelly about his draft decision: "He definitely wasn't happy about it.” (more)</p>— Irish Illustrated (@NDatRivals) <a href="https://twitter.com/NDatRivals/statuses/421513742736580608">January 10, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>"If I was … the CEO of a company and trying to run a business and every year my best assets are leaving, I'd be a little upset also."</p>— Irish Illustrated (@NDatRivals) <a href="https://twitter.com/NDatRivals/statuses/421513856553209856">January 10, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Rhode Irish]

Around the time of closing the 2012 class, which was exceptionally talented and exceptionally dramatic, there was lots of discussion around here about going after "football-first" guys. Idea being we needed to upgrade talent at various positions if we hoped to compete. Swap Robert Blanton and Gary Gray for Ronald Darby and Tee Shepherd. That sort of thing.
I guess you could argue the end results of that 2012 class speak to the wisdom of that strategy (though we did get Kevariae Russell), and it's striking the degree to which we've moved away from that. Even our two decommits this year did so with little drama and for purely personal/family reasons. And have we flipped anyone from comparable programs? (I know, Drue Tranquil and Johnny Williams, but they both stepped up a class to sign with us). Like Lax said, we've gone to war over no one.
Thing is, we won't know which strategy is really the right one until about 2017.

I definitely prefer this approach, but time will tell.

I'd like to put out a bounty: if anyone that can track down a recruiting class (of 15+) in the last ten years from a team in a BCS conference that every member of the class played out their eligibility at and graduated from that school, I will give that person 500,000,000 vbucks. My guess is that there isn't one.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

I definitely prefer this approach, but time will tell.

I'd like to put out a bounty: if anyone that can track down a recruiting class (of 15+) in the last ten years from a team in a BCS conference that every member of the class played out their eligibility at and graduated from that school, I will give that person 500,000,000 vbucks. My guess is that there isn't one.

I checked and you are correct. No class had all commits graduate.

Can I get some Vbucks?

 

[NDPhilly]

Rhode I remember what you are talking about. We were all pissed after the FSU game and Lax pretty much said "Fuck it lets just take Jucos." In his anger.

 

[Irishman77]

F! This is awful. The program is in the middle of major change and new coaches but I feel the culture of the football team and morale stinks. The new coaches have got to recruit themselves out of this mess.

I'm with GITF ..my resolution is to crank up the apathy

 

[ND NYC]

Wondering what round you guys think Eifert would have gone in the draft had he left a year earlier, like Troy is doing?

from a strictly "business decision standpoint"
the round you pick will tell you all you need to know on whether, from, again, a strictly financial calculation, whether this was the right calculated financial risk for him.

my hunch (know way of knowing) is that niklas will end up going pretty close to where eifert would have went, had he left early too.

have to think that it was the less than expected draft grade that (ironically) and rightly made troy's "people" advise him that he would never be a first rounder, even with that extra year, which had to factor into at least his financial calculations in all this.

above not taking into consideration anything but the financeial piece in all this.

 

[ulukinatme]

Welp,on the plus side we've already been putting a lot of young guys on the field, might as well see what this talented crop of TEs can do. I seriously thought Troy's dad already said he was staying though...oh well.

 

[ND NYC]

"Benefit of the doubt" evaporated somewhere between yelling yourself purple on national television and ditching the Alma Mater after a home loss.

you aint seen nuthin yet my friend
#VanGorder

 

[Irishnuke]

I'm not mad at Troy. It's his decision and his future but shit, this is a huge loss. I was looking forward to watching him next year. Koyack better step the F up.