Oct 5 | Arizona State

[Wild Bill]

This. I'd rather see Jalen Brown or Hardy or Redfield out there on 3rd and long.

I cringe whenever its 3rd and 5+ and Carlo and Fox are both out there. We have to have better options. Again, I'd take any backup in the secondary covering a RB or a TE or dropping in zone than our middle LBs (or freakin Ishaq!).

Until they run a draw or screen and o-lineman are just laying out defensive backs.

 

[koonja]

That's an option but to my understanding, Shumate is having trouble with the "mental" part of the game. Maybe the coaches aren't confident he can play another position effectively when he hasn't fully grasped the safety position.

Well they need to let his athleticism cover up for any understanding issues he has.

I'd rather have someone out there that can actually run with someone and make a play operating at 70% understanding, than a guy who has 100% idea of what's going on, but no chance to run with the slowest player going out for a pass.

And it's not like he'd be learning how to play MLB if he only came in for 3rd/4th and longs. He'd just have to roam the middle on passing plays.

Just my opinion.

 

[Wild Bill]

Well they need to let his athleticism cover up for any understanding issues he has.

I'd rather have someone out there that can actually run with someone and make a play operating at 70% understanding, than a guy who has 100% idea of what's going on, but no chance to run with the slowest player going out for a pass.

And it's not like he'd be learning how to play MLB if he only came in for 3rd/4th and longs. He'd just have to roam the middle on passing plays.

Just my opinion.

To be clear, I want someone other than Ishaq out there but I don't know who would be better. Like it or not, this is a bend but don't break defense. Mental mistakes equal breaks...and we all know Diaco won't tolerate them.

"Roam the middle"...if it were only this easy. He doesn't have to learn how to play mike but he has to read the guards feet, something a safety rarely does. He also has to process a ton of information pre-snap.

 

[koonja]

To be clear, I want someone other than Ishaq out there but I don't know who would be better. Like it or not, this is a bend but don't break defense. Mental mistakes equal breaks...and we all know Diaco won't tolerate them.

"Roam the middle"...if it were only this easy. He doesn't have to learn how to play mike but he has to read the guards feet, something a safety rarely does. He also has to process a ton of information pre-snap.

If we're talking strictly 3rd/4th and long (which is the case I'm trying to make for Shummate), he doesn't really need to read the guards at all since they won't be running plays. If they are running plays and it's 3rd and 12 or longer, so be it. If they have a decent rush because Shummate's in there, it's still very likely to be stopped short of the 1st down.

 

[Wild Bill]

If we're talking strictly 3rd/4th and long (which is the case I'm trying to make for Shummate), he doesn't really need to read the guards at all since they won't be running plays. If they are running plays and it's 3rd and 12 or longer, so be it. If they have a decent rush because Shummate's in there, it's still very likely to be stopped short of the 1st down.

3rd and long formations are generally used on 3rd and 8 or longer. Generally, you don't have a package for 3rd and real long. Assuming this is true, he absolutely must read the guard.

If he bails on a 3rd and 8 without reading the guard, you better believe opposing coordinators are finding it on film and running draw right up the gut for 10 yards all day.

Even when it's 3rd and real long, he has to read the guard first. What if they sprint out or run a bootleg? He'd take himself out of the play immediately.

 

[koonja]

3rd and long formations are generally used on 3rd and 8 or longer. Generally, you don't have a package for 3rd and real long. Assuming this is true, he absolutely must read the guard.

If he bails on a 3rd and 8 without reading the guard, you better believe opposing coordinators are finding it on film and running draw right up the gut for 10 yards all day.

Even when it's 3rd and real long, he has to read the guard first. What if they sprint out or run a bootleg? He'd take himself out of the play immediately.

I'd rather take my chances with our DL and DBs making a tackle short of the first down on 3rd and 8 or more than watch Carlo/Ishaq hopelessly try to cover a back, TE, or WR running a crossing route.

JMO.

 

[PANDFAN]

JUST RELEASED

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Inside Notre Dame Football 2013 - Arizona State

 

[IrishLax]

What are the other options?
Spond is gone. Grace was already injured. Carlo and Fox are shorter, slower, and IMO, greater liabilities. Prince was busy killing their QB. Jaylon and Councell are really the only other options, and I believe Jaylon was already on the field at another position.

On 3rd and a mile (20+) I'd get him off the field for any DB. Seriously, any DB. Devin Butler, Lo Wood, Max Redfield, Eilary Hardy... I don't even really care who. If you rush 4, drop 7 DBs in coverage. There is no reason to ever have a DL dropping 15+ yards downfield in coverage and trying to play the ball in the air.

If you must have a linebacker type on the field and go 4-1-6 or 3-2-6, the linebackers should be Smith, and then Councell. Both are fast and have skill/experience covering due to the position that they play (drop linebacker). As a last resort, you use Okwara (DOG training) or Fox (ILB training and has played a lot in coverage).

How many times do you think Ishaq has ever been asked before to cover 20+ yards down the field? How many of those times do you think he's been successful? ASU picked up a 3rd & impossible because we had a guy doing something he should never be doing and has no experience doing. He failed to get to the proper depth and they threw over his head.

 

[IrishLax]

Until they run a draw or screen and o-lineman are just laying out defensive backs.

To be clear, I want someone other than Ishaq out there but I don't know who would be better. Like it or not, this is a bend but don't break defense. Mental mistakes equal breaks...and we all know Diaco won't tolerate them.

"Roam the middle"...if it were only this easy. He doesn't have to learn how to play mike but he has to read the guards feet, something a safety rarely does. He also has to process a ton of information pre-snap.

If we're talking strictly 3rd/4th and long (which is the case I'm trying to make for Shummate), he doesn't really need to read the guards at all since they won't be running plays. If they are running plays and it's 3rd and 12 or longer, so be it. If they have a decent rush because Shummate's in there, it's still very likely to be stopped short of the 1st down.

3rd and long formations are generally used on 3rd and 8 or longer. Generally, you don't have a package for 3rd and real long. Assuming this is true, he absolutely must read the guard.

If he bails on a 3rd and 8 without reading the guard, you better believe opposing coordinators are finding it on film and running draw right up the gut for 10 yards all day.

Even when it's 3rd and real long, he has to read the guard first. What if they sprint out or run a bootleg? He'd take himself out of the play immediately.

This back and forth is getting to the crux of what I was getting at. I'm not talking about 3rd-8 or 3rd-12... on those situations you have to have a linebacker on the field.

3rd and 20 though is basically Hail Mary defense/prevent defense. It's not a standard down and distance, but they do (or should) have personnel packages to stop this kind of situation. Usually it's something like soft man coverage on all receivers (with DBs) and a couple high safeties... or some sort of zone with a picket fence of people at a certain depth and help behind that.

I've never, ever seen a team at any level put a DL on the field at a linebacker position and ask them to drop 15+ yards in coverage and make a play on the ball. Whatever the correct way to play 3rd and 20 is.... that is not it.

 

[Wild Bill]

This back and forth is getting to the crux of what I was getting at. I'm not talking about 3rd-8 or 3rd-12... on those situations you have to have a linebacker on the field.

3rd and 20 though is basically Hail Mary defense/prevent defense. It's not a standard down and distance, but they do (or should) have personnel packages to stop this kind of situation. Usually it's something like soft man coverage on all receivers (with DBs) and a couple high safeties... or some sort of zone with a picket fence of people at a certain depth and help behind that.

I've never, ever seen a team at any level put a DL on the field at a linebacker position and ask them to drop 15+ yards in coverage and make a play on the ball. Whatever the correct way to play 3rd and 20 is.... that is not it.

Third and long is third and long. You're not going to waste valuable practice time making personnel changes from 3rd and 8 to 3rd and 20. If the player has the attributes to play on third and long, the distance isn't relevant (prevent defense usual has a change in personnel...maybe that's what should have been done).

I imagine Grace was supposed to play the position but his injury forced Ishaq into the game. That's only a guess.

I question whether or not Ishaq has those attributes just like you, but I don't know who else can play the position at this point. I would not use a safety to play mike on 3rd and long. If I was forced to put two linebackers on the field on third and long I would use Jaylon and Councell, with Jaylon playing the middle. But remember, Councell could not play the first half and may have been excluded on special personnel packages like nickel and dime.

 

[Buster Bluth]

This back and forth is getting to the crux of what I was getting at. I'm not talking about 3rd-8 or 3rd-12... on those situations you have to have a linebacker on the field.

3rd and 20 though is basically Hail Mary defense/prevent defense. It's not a standard down and distance, but they do (or should) have personnel packages to stop this kind of situation. Usually it's something like soft man coverage on all receivers (with DBs) and a couple high safeties... or some sort of zone with a picket fence of people at a certain depth and help behind that.

I've never, ever seen a team at any level put a DL on the field at a linebacker position and ask them to drop 15+ yards in coverage and make a play on the ball. Whatever the correct way to play 3rd and 20 is.... that is not it.

Yeah, I agree with this.

 

[IrishLax]

Third and long is third and long. You're not going to waste valuable practice time making personnel changes from 3rd and 8 to 3rd and 20. If the player has the attributes to play on third and long, the distance isn't relevant (prevent defense usual has a change in personnel...maybe that's what should have been done).

This is what I'm saying. I'm not really upset about the general concept of 3rd & long defense and having Ishaq on the field. But even then, within 3rd & long defenses there are obviously lots of different personnel groupings and plays they could've called. It's up to Diaco, IMO, to chose the one that doesn't have Ishaq doing what he was doing. That's just my opinion though.

I imagine Grace was supposed to play the position but his injury forced Ishaq into the game. That's only a guess.

I question whether or not Ishaq has those attributes just like you, but I don't know who else can play the position at this point. I would not use a safety to play mike on 3rd and long. If I was forced to put two linebackers on the field on third and long I would use Jaylon and Councell, with Jaylon playing the middle. But remember, Councell could not play the first half and may have been excluded on special personnel packages like nickel and dime.

This makes sense. Maybe Ishaq was simply "next man in" on whatever set that was so he went in by default. And maybe they didn't gameplan to have Councell in a lot of packages because he was going to miss the first half... maybe they installed that particular one in the upcoming week. But when it did happen in the second half, Councell was eligible. So hypothetically they could've called a set that was going to have him on the field or otherwise avoid Ishaq doing what he did.

I'm nitpicking, but at the same time it's mistakes like this that give up big plays and blow games. Just think of the blown coverage against Michigan in 2011. Guys with the right skills screw up enough that I don't think you can afford to put guys with the wrong skillset in the position to get exploited.

 

[IrishLax]

Sun Devils beating the hell out of WSU. 35-7 only 25 minutes into the game. I really have no idea how we beat this team... I know WSU isn't good, but ASU has destroyed most of the teams they've played and has one of the most explosive offenses in the country. They're basically Texas A&M without the SEC filatio.

 

[gkIrish]

Sun Devils beating the hell out of WSU. 35-7 only 25 minutes into the game. I really have no idea how we beat this team... I know WSU isn't good, but ASU has destroyed most of the teams they've played and has one of the most explosive offenses in the country. They're basically Texas A&M without the SEC filatio.

Was just about to post the same thing. That win gives me hope that we win out and maybe win a BCS game.

 

[Bubba]

Sun Devils beating the hell out of WSU. 35-7 only 25 minutes into the game. I really have no idea how we beat this team... I know WSU isn't good, but ASU has destroyed most of the teams they've played and has one of the most explosive offenses in the country. They're basically Texas A&M without the SEC filatio.

If ASU had shown up for the first half of the Stanford game, they would have beat them. But for whatever reason, the slept walk through that first half...

 

[IrishLax]

If ASU had shown up for the first half of the Stanford game, they would have beat them. But for whatever reason, the slept walk through that first half...

Yeah, they rallied hard and came up just short. So many mental errors to start the game and not tough enough at the point of attack.

 

[military_irish]

It's because any close game ND plays against a "bad" opponent "every team shows up to play ND" and anytime ND wins against a good opponent "the "good" opponent didn't bring their A game otherwise it would have been a blowout"

 

[NDdomer2]

i think WSU is getting a little too much credit.

 

[Onemanwolfpack]

Yeah, they rallied hard and came up just short. So many mental errors to start the game and not tough enough at the point of attack.

ASU made some mistakes, but they were getting killed 39-7 at the end of the third quarter. Stanford is a tough physical team that is a bad matchup for ASU. No doubt ASU has a potent offense, but Stanford beats them again if they were to play this season. I agree with LAX that ASU was not tough enough at the point of attack.

 

[rocket66]

Oct 5 | Arizona State

ASU lost to the two teams they played who have the ability to pressure the qb. It's simple.

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

We held them to 65 yards...

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>This is insane: In its last two games, Arizona State has rushed for 596 yards and allowed -3 yards rushing.</p>— Paul Myerberg (@PaulMyerberg) <a href="https://twitter.com/PaulMyerberg/statuses/396255704954073089">November 1, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[dublinirish]

We held them to 65 yards...

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>This is insane: In its last two games, Arizona State has rushed for 596 yards and allowed -3 yards rushing.</p>— Paul Myerberg (@PaulMyerberg) <a href="https://twitter.com/PaulMyerberg/statuses/396255704954073089">November 1, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

it was a non conference game so it "didn't matter" :S

 

[IrishLax]

ASU made some mistakes, but they were getting killed 39-7 at the end of the third quarter. Stanford is a tough physical team that is a bad matchup for ASU. No doubt ASU has a potent offense, but Stanford beats them again if they were to play this season. I agree with LAX that ASU was not tough enough at the point of attack.

I don't know, I don't doubt Stanford could still run the ball down their throats and score (but ASU's defense IS playing better now)... but I really don't think ASU's offense/special teams would gift them the game in the first half like they did the first time around.

Both ND and Stanford not only got pressure, but made huge negative plays or turnovers when it mattered. In the first half, ASU had an interception leading to a TD, a missed field goal, a punt that only went to their 35, a 20-something yard punt to the 50, and a botched punt for a safety. That's a ton of special teams miscues.

Stanford is probably a better team than ASU and wins the majority of matchups, but I think if you gave the Sun Devils a second chance and they eliminated the times where they shot themselves in the foot they could definitely beat the Cardinal. Stanford only had 2 actual extended TD drives and was outgained by ASU on the day. All of their other scoring came off of ASU gift wrapping them amazing field position off a miscue.

My biggest takeaway from ASU is that they are incredibly talented, but not quite ready for prime time. Their two biggest games so far they've basically imploded under the pressure.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Don't look now, but ASU is kicking the crap out of UCLA. I have no love for ASU, but they're good. And we beat them.

 

[Bluto]

Don't look now, but ASU is kicking the crap out of UCLA. I have no love for ASU, but they're good. And we beat them.

That's right. BCS, BCS!!!!

 

[palinurus]

Just thinking the same thing. But did you just hear the Fox commentator say that ASU loss to ND was a game "they should have won but didn't". I don't know who that idiot is, but ND played really well that game and I don't recall it being as close as the score was. Dumbass

 

[IrishLax]

Just thinking the same thing. But did you just hear the Fox commentator say that ASU loss to ND was a game "they should have won but didn't". I don't know who that idiot is, but ND played really well that game and I don't recall it being as close as the score was. Dumbass

That's absolutely ridiculous. We didn't dominate that game, but it was a solid win. There is no universe where ASU "should've" won.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

That's absolutely ridiculous. We didn't dominate that game, but it was a solid win. There is no universe where ASU "should've" won.

True. I didn't hear that comment, but we were the better team that night.

 

[enrico514]

True. I didn't hear that comment, but we were the better team that night.

Comment was definitely made. TD ASU as I type!

 

[palinurus]

UCLA is getting pole-axed.