Who do you want to replace Brian Kelly?

NDRock

Well-known member
Messages
7,489
Reaction score
5,448
LSU's ranking in Total Offense:

2008 - 55
2009 - 112
2010 - 86
2011 - 86
2012 - 87
2013 - 35
2014 - 80
2015 - 39
2016 - 111

I would find it hard to believe that LSU can't get the talent. I'd say it's more of an issue with identifying talent, scheme, and coaching.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
Do you think LSU's lack of offensive success has been due to the lack of talent they are able to get or poor coaching?

Real football programs don't need new-fangled abominations like "the forward pass" and other small timey tricks to win championships.

This strawman is of a piece with RTDB, MANBALL™, and Harrumph... Fullbacks! It's first and foremost a grumpy attitude in search of an argument.
 

Domina Nostra

Well-known member
Messages
6,251
Reaction score
1,388
LSU's ranking in Total Offense:

2008 - 55
2009 - 112
2010 - 86
2011 - 86
2012 - 87
2013 - 35
2014 - 80
2015 - 39
2016 - 111

I would find it hard to believe that LSU can't get the talent. I'd say it's more of an issue with identifying talent, scheme, and coaching.

I was absolutely shocked to listen to the Scout podcast after the Duke game and have all 3 basically agree that ND has very little defensive talent.

This is example #3,249 of college football being "what did you do for me lately." It's an oversimplification, but it more or less boils down to "If you win, everyone is fine, if you lose everyone sucks."

Now the list you created above, just like the defensive stats for some schools, are certainly skewed by the fact that LSU has to play Alabama every year and that a few other SEC schools always have particularly good defenses. In other words, there offense from 2010 to 2014 would have fared better in the Big 10. And no one in the MAC has to play Florida, Alabama, and Auburn in the same year.

LSU, like us, had a scheme issue. LSU has tons of great players on offense. Their WRs and RBs are usually awesome. Their QBs have been half-ass, but that is partly a result of kids not wanting to play in such a closed offense.

LSU players should be able to cobble together a Top 40 offense every year with the players they have. We should be able to do the same on defense. All our guys are clearly D1 capable, some of them get drafted. Diaco was right: play fundamentals, don't give up big plays; bend don't break is the way to go in college football. Our offense should be winning us more games. We just need to be pretty good on defense.
 
Last edited:

bluengold4732

New member
Messages
215
Reaction score
7
Does anyone think that a HUUUUGE reason why LSU offense sucks is because they never have a QB who could throw a forward pass? Brandon Harris and Anthony Jennings...even Jefferson were all horrible. Over those years LSU had Beckham, Jarvis Landry, Kenny Hilliard, and a bunch of other great NFL talent on their offense but no one who could get them the ball. Their best QB in that time was Zach Mettenberger. If Les had a good QB I think they would have been far more successful. Even this year they have Fournette, Guice, Dupre, and Duran a lot of weapons just no one who could throw
 

pkt77242

IPA Man
Messages
10,805
Reaction score
719
Does anyone think that a HUUUUGE reason why LSU offense sucks is because they never have a QB who could throw a forward pass? Brandon Harris and Anthony Jennings...even Jefferson were all horrible. Over those years LSU had Beckham, Jarvis Landry, Kenny Hilliard, and a bunch of other great NFL talent on their offense but no one who could get them the ball. Their best QB in that time was Zach Mettenberger. If Les had a good QB I think they would have been far more successful. Even this year they have Fournette, Guice, Dupre, and Duran a lot of weapons just no one who could throw

All of the QBs that you listed were pretty highly recruited/ranked. So that seems to say it is more lack of development (coaches) and scheme (coaches).

247 Composite
Brandon Harris: .9645 #3 Dual-Threat #75 overall
Anthony Jennings: .9135 #14 Pro-style #214 overall

Something tells me that it was coaching/scheme as the QBs seemed to be plenty talented coming out of HS.

Harris would be rated similar to Wimbush (Wimbush was .9784 #45 overall and #3 dual) and Jennings was similar to Kizer (.9073, #232 overall and #12 Pro-style). That should put it into perspective.
 
Last edited:

IrishBroker

New member
Messages
1,278
Reaction score
50
Wow, that's weird because I specifically mentioned both those states.



So what? Read the parameters... used composite ratings for both accuracy and simplicity.



Alternatively, field even a top 40 defense will look good next year whereas someone at LSU will be in hot water if they're not in the top 15. Everything is relative.

My mistake. I think I stroked out when I read your post. Yeah, LSU gets most it's talent from surrounding states. But usually get the studs in LA.

I was using Rivals...and I think he's 5 star on another one as well.

I'm saying that as a new D coord, the overall D and talent at LSU on that side of the ball, is much better. Which would be much more attractive. ND is a trainwreck on D. Not one player would get someone excited based on what we've seen this year.
 

IrishLax

Something Witty
Staff member
Messages
37,546
Reaction score
29,009
My mistake. I think I stroked out when I read your post. Yeah, LSU gets most it's talent from surrounding states. But usually get the studs in LA.

I was using Rivals...and I think he's 5 star on another one as well.

I'm saying that as a new D coord, the overall D and talent at LSU on that side of the ball, is much better. Which would be much more attractive. ND is a trainwreck on D. Not one player would get someone excited based on what we've seen this year.

Yeah I agree LSU has more talent. I do think that ND is attractive though given the fact that we'll be returning 9 starters next year, and any "new" starters will be supplanting those dudes based on talent.
 

IrishLax

Something Witty
Staff member
Messages
37,546
Reaction score
29,009
Does anyone think that a HUUUUGE reason why LSU offense sucks is because they never have a QB who could throw a forward pass? Brandon Harris and Anthony Jennings...even Jefferson were all horrible. Over those years LSU had Beckham, Jarvis Landry, Kenny Hilliard, and a bunch of other great NFL talent on their offense but no one who could get them the ball. Their best QB in that time was Zach Mettenberger. If Les had a good QB I think they would have been far more successful. Even this year they have Fournette, Guice, Dupre, and Duran a lot of weapons just no one who could throw

Right, and this is basically the problem with ND's defense. ND's defense could've been killer last year with just a talented MIKE (and safety).... instead they were still surprisingly bad based on scheme.

It's basically the same thing with LSU. The problem is equal parts a lack of a QB, and bad coaching that hamstrings them on account of that. It's not like Harris, etc. weren't top recruits and LSU couldn't get someone who was competent... it was bad coaches doing bad recruiting and bad development.

In both cases, it's proof positive that it's not a "can't get talent" problem holding the team back. In both cases on opposite sides of the ball it was a coach-driven problem.
 

IrishLax

Something Witty
Staff member
Messages
37,546
Reaction score
29,009
Ah, that would be my confusion. Epenesa is in Edwarsville, which is southern Illinois. Heck he's a ton closer to Iowa and Mizzou than South Bend.

I think the bigger misses were in 2016, when they missed out on Josh King, Auston Robertson, Austin Mack all right there. Now of course there were other factors, but those are guys in ND's backyard that they couldn't get for one reason or another.

Shit my bad I was trying to take southern Illinois guys out. I think I naturally assumed it was closer to Chicago based on early ND connection.
 

IrishBroker

New member
Messages
1,278
Reaction score
50
Does anyone think that a HUUUUGE reason why LSU offense sucks is because they never have a QB who could throw a forward pass? Brandon Harris and Anthony Jennings...even Jefferson were all horrible. Over those years LSU had Beckham, Jarvis Landry, Kenny Hilliard, and a bunch of other great NFL talent on their offense but no one who could get them the ball. Their best QB in that time was Zach Mettenberger. If Les had a good QB I think they would have been far more successful. Even this year they have Fournette, Guice, Dupre, and Duran a lot of weapons just no one who could throw

Absolutely correct. While they may look good in the recruiting services, they haven't done squat on the field.

I have a good buddy who is a LSU grad and super fan...QB has been their issue since JaMarcus. And there is no doubt about that.
 

Polish Leppy 22

Well-known member
Messages
6,595
Reaction score
2,011
Do you think LSU's lack of offensive success has been due to the lack of talent they are able to get or poor coaching?

Their lack of offensive success comes down to horrific QB play and QB development. They are loaded on the OL and skill positions.
 

Circa

Conspire to keep It real
Messages
8,000
Reaction score
818
I'll say It again...
The reason the angry head hitting guy decide's to go to other schools.. Little white envelopes on Friday or Saturday night... maybe even hump days.... and SAT scores....
Let's call a cat a cat.
 

Sherm Sticky

The Prophet
Messages
19,321
Reaction score
1,638
Yeah I agree LSU has more talent. I do think that ND is attractive though given the fact that we'll be returning 9 starters next year, and any "new" starters will be supplanting those dudes based on talent.



9 starters returning next year on defense. Not counting Jarron Jones, saying Cage is starter this year, I count 3 players leaving so would return 8 at the most. Rochelle, James O and Luke.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Irish#1

Livin' Your Dream!
Staff member
Messages
44,620
Reaction score
20,108
I was absolutely shocked to listen to the Scout podcast after the Duke game and have all 3 basically agree that ND has very little defensive talent.

This is example #3,249 of college football being "what did you do for me lately." It's an oversimplification, but it more or less boils down to "If you win, everyone is fine, if you lose everyone sucks."

Now the list you created above, just like the defensive stats for some schools, are certainly skewed by the fact that LSU has to play Alabama every year and that a few other SEC schools always have particularly good defenses. In other words, there offense from 2010 to 2014 would have fared better in the Big 10. And no one in the MAC has to play Florida, Alabama, and Auburn in the same year.

LSU, like us, had a scheme issue. LSU has tons of great players on offense. Their WRs and RBs are usually awesome. Their QBs have been half-ass, but that is partly a result of kids not wanting to play in such a closed offense.

LSU players should be able to cobble together a Top 40 offense every year with the players they have. We should be able to do the same on defense. All our guys are clearly D1 capable, some of them get drafted. Diaco was right: play fundamentals, don't give up big plays; bend don't break is the way to go in college football. Our offense should be winning us more games. We just need to be pretty good on defense.

They also play three gimme games against teams like Jacksonville St. which should offset games against Alabama, UGA, etc.
 

DCirishfan

New member
Messages
1,188
Reaction score
40
They also play three gimme games against teams like Jacksonville St. which should offset games against Alabama, UGA, etc.

The recruiting classes from Brian Kelly on defense has not been very good we've had basically low 4-star and 3-star prospects across the board the couple of five stars that we've had have not developed properly or are now picked up from the school.
 

DCirishfan

New member
Messages
1,188
Reaction score
40
Right, and this is basically the problem with ND's defense. ND's defense could've been killer last year with just a talented MIKE (and safety).... instead they were still surprisingly bad based on scheme.

It's basically the same thing with LSU. The problem is equal parts a lack of a QB, and bad coaching that hamstrings them on account of that. It's not like Harris, etc. weren't top recruits and LSU couldn't get someone who was competent... it was bad coaches doing bad recruiting and bad development.

In both cases, it's proof positive that it's not a "can't get talent" problem holding the team back. In both cases on opposite sides of the ball it was a coach-driven problem.
I agree that the scheme was terrible no doubt I think that the talent isn't quite as good as some think last year. There's no doubt that Brian Van Gorder was pretty terrible I realize that for the first time at the Navy game at FedEx field when I was there and even up by 3 touchdowns we could not keep contain on their pitchouts unbelievable.
 

GBdomer

People's Champion
Messages
6,845
Reaction score
555
Just saw a stat where David Shaw has 20!!!' Wins vs top 25 teams the last five years.
 

ACamp1900

Counting my ‘bet against ND’ winnings
Messages
48,954
Reaction score
11,239
Just saw a stat where David Shaw has 20!!!' Wins vs top 25 teams the last five years.

lol...

wins against ranked opponents... all of us are like:

tumblr_lwf2zbXqFK1qlebd0o1_500.gif
 

Irish#1

Livin' Your Dream!
Staff member
Messages
44,620
Reaction score
20,108
The recruiting classes from Brian Kelly on defense has not been very good we've had basically low 4-star and 3-star prospects across the board the couple of five stars that we've had have not developed properly or are now picked up from the school.

I agree that the scheme was terrible no doubt I think that the talent isn't quite as good as some think last year. There's no doubt that Brian Van Gorder was pretty terrible I realize that for the first time at the Navy game at FedEx field when I was there and even up by 3 touchdowns we could not keep contain on their pitchouts unbelievable.

We might have lacked some depth, but for the most part we've had players capable of competing against the best. Jaylon developed quite nicely. This all goes back to BVG and the tight control he maintained. Watch how the defense plays the rest of the year. I think you'll see a stark improvement as the season progresses.
 

OCIrish

Fukk Michigan
Messages
3,280
Reaction score
218
The recruiting classes from Brian Kelly on defense has not been very good we've had basically low 4-star and 3-star prospects across the board the couple of five stars that we've had have not developed properly or are now picked up from the school.

Sparty says hello.......they do much more, with much less!!!
 

Rocket89

Uniform Connoisseur
Messages
2,914
Reaction score
551
Just saw a stat where David Shaw has 20!!!' Wins vs top 25 teams the last five years.

Against ranked teams at the time? Here's ranked teams at the end of the season:

2016: 0-0
2015: 2-2
2014: 1-4
2013: 6-2
2012: 3-1
2011: 1-2
TOTAL: 13-11
 

GBdomer

People's Champion
Messages
6,845
Reaction score
555
Ranked teams at the time is an terrible stat.

this makes no sense, ok 13-11 but when those teams were ranked Shaw has beaten them 20 times over the past five years. That's insane, BK hasn't won a big game since 2012 and it seems like Shaw does it every couple weeks
 

GATTACA!

It's about to get gross
Messages
15,120
Reaction score
12,957
this makes no sense, ok 13-11 but when those teams were ranked Shaw has beaten them 20 times over the past five years. That's insane, BK hasn't won a big game since 2012 and it seems like Shaw does it every couple weeks

Yeah sad part is even if we take the 13-11 stat for what it is, it's still way better than anything Kelly has done.
 

kmoose

Banned
Messages
10,298
Reaction score
1,181
BK hasn't won a big game since 2012

Yeah. Except he has:

In 2013, ND beat Michigan State, who ended the season 13-1, won the Rose Bowl, and finished #3 in the polls.

In 2014, ND beat the #1 defense in the SEC, LSU, in the Music City Bowl. You can make the (weak) argument that LSU was unmotivated and didn't play hard. But playing the #1 defense in the "best" conference in the country is a big game.
 

kmoose

Banned
Messages
10,298
Reaction score
1,181
What about going after the Washington husky D coordinator

Why? Their defense is ranked #40 in the country, which is much higher than ours, but not exactly a great ranking for a team that has played:

Rutgers
Idaho
Portland State
Arizona
 
Top