Who do you want to replace Brian Kelly?

[Irish#1]

ND can attract top talent. LSU can attract more top talent. There are dozens of kids LSU can recruit that ND can't, not the other way around.

Michigan, Ohio State, and ND will always be able to recruit due to their brands in college football. Of the 3, ND has the tightest academic requirements.

As for traditional basketball powers...they don't play outside when it's 30 degrees.

LSU may be able to get more talent, but not a significant amount more. There's a limited number of positions and only eleven get to be on the field at one time.

ND may have the tightest restrictions of the three, but that hasn't stopped them from getting the talent.

As far as climate, they may not play outside, but they have to live in the area. Besides these kids don't get to choose which NFL team they get to play for. If weather is a factor, how did we manage to get all of the players from the south?

I just don't buy the excuses, because there's evidence to the contrary.

 

[RDU Irish]

I'd rather play in the cold than the heat. I've never heard of "cold stroke".

 

[NDShark]

I'd rather play in the cold than the heat. I've never heard of "cold stroke".

Agreed -- when your body gets warmed up, playing in the cold is wayyyyy better IMO

 

[RDU Irish]

Female wardrobe choices are a more legitimate angle on warm climate benefits than running around for two hours in 100 degree heat with full football gear on.

 

[Irish Insanity]

It's already proven that ND can attract top talent. Easy academics are probably the kids that wouldn't qualify at ND anyway.

Personally I think the warm climate excuse is BS, hyped by the media over the years. How do you explain ND, OSU or Michigan being able to recruit? How do the northern schools that are traditional basketball powers able to attract talent to the cold climate?

👍

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

LSU may be able to get more talent, but not a significant amount more. There's a limited number of positions and only eleven get to be on the field at one time.

ND may have the tightest restrictions of the three, but that hasn't stopped them from getting the talent.

As far as climate, they may not play outside, but they have to live in the area. Besides these kids don't get to choose which NFL team they get to play for. If weather is a factor, how did we manage to get all of the players from the south?

I just don't buy the excuses, because there's evidence to the contrary.

If we can agree that LSU is able to get more talent and the money is equal, then the DC would take LSU over ND. You can call them excuses. I call them reasons.

 

[IrishLax]

LSU may be able to get more talent, but not a significant amount more. There's a limited number of positions and only eleven get to be on the field at one time.

Not only that, but having to yearly face Bama, etc. makes that recruiting much more cut throat and meaningless if the "other guy" is always going to have more talent. The only thing LSU's situation actually does that is a positive is allow them to recruit locally and minimize travel. Otherwise, coaches have to put in every bit of legwork Notre Dame coaches do and then some to keep Bama, Ole Miss, Texas, Texas A&M, etc. away from the players they want. It's actually more a positive than negative that ND can go nationwide, assuming you have the staff to do it. LSU isn't going to be very effective getting players from outside the south, which is why their QB situation has sucks seemingly every year.

ND may have the tightest restrictions of the three, but that hasn't stopped them from getting the talent.

As far as climate, they may not play outside, but they have to live in the area. Besides these kids don't get to choose which NFL team they get to play for. If weather is a factor, how did we manage to get all of the players from the south?

I just don't buy the excuses, because there's evidence to the contrary.

Yup. A bunch of people have been told "ND can't win and isn't desirable because..." and it's basically all a lie. Academic restrictions and facilities used to be HUGE hurdles. In this current era, that's really not the case. It's why ND ranks high on desirability polls among coaches.

Also, Chicago is one of the top talent producing markets and is basically in ND's backyard but hey let's not let that ruin the narrative.

 

[IrishLax]

Looking at ND's backyard of Chicago and Indiana, we 2 5 players and 6 4 players this year. Louisiana has zero 5 players and 12 4 players. And they certainly don't get all of them by default, as they only have 25% of that group committed. Having to go into Texas/Florida for the rest of their players is no different than Notre Dame going into Ohio/Pennsylvania.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Looking at ND's backyard of Chicago and Indiana, we 2 5 players and 6 4 players this year. Louisiana has zero 5 players and 12 4 players. And they certainly don't get all of them by default, as they only have 25% of that group committed. Having to go into Texas/Florida for the rest of their players is no different than Notre Dame going into Ohio/Pennsylvania.

Who are the 5 star players this year? Do you mean 2016 or 2017? Also, just curious, but what service are you using for these rankings?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

ND defense rankings since 2008:

2008: 39th
2009: 86th
2010: 51st
2011: 30th
2012: 7th
2013: 31st
2014: 73rd
2015: 45th

8 years of recruiting. 4 defensive coordinators. If ND can recruit on defense with the best, wouldn't we expect a defense that consistently ranks among the top 25 and not outside the top 25?

 

[ScooterIrish]

ND defense rankings since 2008:

2008: 39th
2009: 86th
2010: 51st
2011: 30th
2012: 7th
2013: 31st
2014: 73rd
2015: 45th

8 years of recruiting. 4 defensive coordinators. If ND can recruit on defense with the best, wouldn't we expect a defense that consistently ranks among the top 25 and not outside the top 25?

So coaching as no impact on results?

 

[Irish Insanity]

ND defense rankings since 2008:

2008: 39th
2009: 86th
2010: 51st
2011: 30th
2012: 7th
2013: 31st
2014: 73rd
2015: 45th

8 years of recruiting. 4 defensive coordinators. If ND can recruit on defense with the best, wouldn't we expect a defense that consistently ranks among the top 25 and not outside the top 25?

I think it speaks to the coaching staff as much as it does the recruits we land.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

So coaching as no impact on results?

Sure it does. Goes back to my original point: ND can't get an elite DC or the kind of talent/ depth on defense that others can. Not a complaint. Not an excuse. Just the way it is.

 

[Rocket 94]

Sure it does. Goes back to my original point: ND can't get an elite DC or the kind of talent/ depth on defense that others can. Not a complaint. Not an excuse. Just the way it is.

ND can get all these things, if they choose too. Michigan State does not get the talent we do and yet they have a top 25 defense every year. ND needs to find a coach that has an identity and sticks to it. The last four coaches (Davie, TW, Weis and Kelly) have no identity when it comes to defense so we don't get a consistent product on a year in year out basis. This will continue until we have an elite coach.

 

[Black Irish]

Does anyone think that Sanford benefits the most from the BVG firing? BK has to focus on helping the defense and putting his signature on it, so maybe he gives Sanford more free rein to do what he wants?

Kelly should be trying to keep the wunderkid happy, within reason. A talent like that isn't going to hang around long if he's not able to contribute in a serious way to the offense.

 

[Irish#1]

Sure it does. Goes back to my original point: ND can't get an elite DC or the kind of talent/ depth on defense that others can. Not a complaint. Not an excuse. Just the way it is.

But they can get the talent. This is where coaching comes into play. Look at the SEC. What's the first thing you think of? Defense. Look at the Big 12. What's the first thing you think of? Offense. These conferences concentrate on one side of the ball more than the other. Doesn't mean they don't have the talent on the other side. Just means the identity of those teams lies on one side other the other and that is where the focus is.

I'll let you have the last word, because you haven't convinced me LSU is a better destination or that they get much more talent than ND.

 

[RDU Irish]

Doesn't part of it stem from the head coach's pre-disposition? Defensive coach might look at talented kids as born to play defense - more help to the defensive side of the ball and vice versa. Kelly is obviously offense minded and maybe pushes the best athletes to offense.

 

[IrishBroker]

Looking at ND's backyard of Chicago and Indiana, we 2 5 players and 6 4 players this year. Louisiana has zero 5 players and 12 4 players. And they certainly don't get all of them by default, as they only have 25% of that group committed. Having to go into Texas/Florida for the rest of their players is no different than Notre Dame going into Ohio/Pennsylvania.

You're conveniently leaving out the fact that LSU is a huge presence in TX and FL as well.

Also, Tyler Shelvin is a 5 star DT on Rivals he's from LA.

And I'd say that LSU is in a better position to make a D coord look good now...rather than a rebuild like ND.

 

[IrishBroker]

But they can get the talent. This is where coaching comes into play. Look at the SEC. What's the first thing you think of? Defense. Look at the Big 12. What's the first thing you think of? Offense. These conferences concentrate on one side of the ball more than the other. Doesn't mean they don't have the talent on the other side. Just means the identity of those teams lies on one side other the other and that is where the focus is.

I'll let you have the last word, because you haven't convinced me LSU is a better destination or that they get much more talent than ND.

I disagree about ND being a better prospect than LSU on the defensive coord job.

LSU is a better destination right now, than ND. ND needs a TOTAL makeover on the defensive side of the ball, LSU doesn't. Which a new coach would like as it's more job security. Not to mention, Brian Kelly doesn't seem like a guy who's going to have a long leash on the next D coord...as his job is on the line as well.

Talent wise? Sure, we look competitive on paper in recruiting...but the on field product is much, much better down in the south on defense. Don't know what it is. I'd argue that smart guys that go to ND aren't as aggressive (overall) as the kids they recruit at LSU. Which is why the SEC is known for it's defense.

 

[NDgradstudent]

Adding to the data I presented comparison the rankings of Alabama and ND offered recruits, I now add Ohio State as well- again, for 2015 only. The data confirms what I had found earlier: no evidence to suggest that ND's academic restrictions prevent us from offering the 'top' guys or enough of the top guys.

Key:
T10offers = number of top 10 ranked players at that position who were offered
Totoffers = total number of players at that position who were offered
T10as%oftot = top 10 players offered as a percent of the total players offered at that position

 

[greyhammer90]

Adding to the data I presented comparison the rankings of Alabama and ND offered recruits, I now add Ohio State as well- again, for 2015 only. The data confirms what I had found earlier: no evidence to suggest that ND's academic restrictions prevent us from offering the 'top' guys or enough of the top guys.

Key:
T10offers = number of top 10 ranked players at that position who were offered
Totoffers = total number of players at that position who were offered
T10as%oftot = top 10 players offered as a percent of the total players offered at that position

Does this take into account phantom offers? Like Bo Scarborough was offered by ND and took a visit, but according to most posters he didn't have a real chance of coming here unless he raised his test scores a bunch.

 

[NDgradstudent]

Does this take into account phantom offers? Like Bo Scarborough was offered by ND and took a visit, but according to most posters he didn't have a real chance of coming here unless he raised his test scores a bunch.

It's just offers listed on the 247 'offers' page for a particular team. So I assume the answer is no.

 

[IrishLax]

You're conveniently leaving out the fact that LSU is a huge presence in TX and FL as well.

Wow, that's weird because I specifically mentioned both those states.

Also, Tyler Shelvin is a 5 star DT on Rivals he's from LA.

So what? Read the parameters... used composite ratings for both accuracy and simplicity.

And I'd say that LSU is in a better position to make a D coord look good now...rather than a rebuild like ND.

Alternatively, field even a top 40 defense will look good next year whereas someone at LSU will be in hot water if they're not in the top 15. Everything is relative.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

But they can get the talent. This is where coaching comes into play. Look at the SEC. What's the first thing you think of? Defense. Look at the Big 12. What's the first thing you think of? Offense. These conferences concentrate on one side of the ball more than the other. Doesn't mean they don't have the talent on the other side. Just means the identity of those teams lies on one side other the other and that is where the focus is.

I'll let you have the last word, because you haven't convinced me LSU is a better destination or that they get much more talent than ND.

The proof is in the pudding. LSU has dominant, top level defenses year in year out, and have a ton of guys in the NFL. ND had one miracle season on defense in the last 10 years. The rest...somewhere between 30 and 86 in the country.

 

[IrishLax]

I think it speaks to the coaching staff as much as it does the recruits we land.

Yup, especially when you consider the amount of elite defenders that were part of some of those defenses. I really don't get what is so complicated about this stuff.

 

[IrishLax]

Who are the 5 star players this year? Do you mean 2016 or 2017? Also, just curious, but what service are you using for these rankings?

247 composite, looking at '17 class.

 

[NDRock]

The proof is in the pudding. LSU has dominant, top level defenses year in year out, and have a ton of guys in the NFL. ND had one miracle season on defense in the last 10 years. The rest...somewhere between 30 and 86 in the country.

Do you think LSU's lack of offensive success has been due to the lack of talent they are able to get or poor coaching?

 

[IrishLax]

Do you think LSU's lack of offensive success has been due to the lack of talent they are able to get or poor coaching?

^This. The entire argument right now is the dumbest straw man.

 

[zelezo vlk]

247 composite, looking at '17 class.

Ah, that would be my confusion. Epenesa is in Edwarsville, which is southern Illinois. Heck he's a ton closer to Iowa and Mizzou than South Bend.

I think the bigger misses were in 2016, when they missed out on Josh King, Auston Robertson, Austin Mack all right there. Now of course there were other factors, but those are guys in ND's backyard that they couldn't get for one reason or another.

 

[ScooterIrish]

^This. The entire argument right now is the dumbest straw man.

The dumbest straw man I have seen on here...and that is an accomplishment.