Who do you want to replace Brian Kelly?

[phgreek]

... and then ND makes the playoff next year and the cycle continues....

...I get your point

But this team won't sniff the playoffs w/o some miracle with O line and D line personnel and play.

 

[dublinirish]

...I get your point

But this team won't sniff the playoffs w/o some miracle with O line and D line personnel and play.

can see the o-line improving greatly next year, the DL not so much. If special teams can at least stop turning ball over, giving up return TD's then ND will be in with a great shout in every game

 

[Pa Golden Tate Fan]

How accurate is that Jack wants to keep Kelly for another year and the Board of Trustees wants Kelly out?

 

[ACamp1900]

Obviously they aren't going to lose 8 games next year (Yes, even I feel confident in saying that)... It would be such a Notre Dame thing to have a decent turnaround season, make everyone happy-ish again and keep the status quo going....

 

[kmoose]

How accurate is that Jack wants to keep Kelly for another year and the Board of Trustees wants Kelly out?

Bonjour!

 

[GATTACA!]

Wrong.

 

[NDRock]

What does this even mean anymore? News flash, ND isn't the spotless child anymore. Might as well start winning.

I assume it means that ND won't compromise its academic integrity (obviously it lets football in that wouldn't normally be admitted) nor will allow blatant cheating. There will always be problems with players breaking rules/law but ND seems to actually punish those players.

 

[Ndaccountant]

can see the o-line improving greatly next year, the DL not so much. If special teams can at least stop turning ball over, giving up return TD's then ND will be in with a great shout in every game

Special teams improvement:Brian Kelly::Cleveland Browns:Winning

 

[IrishLax]

What does this even mean anymore? News flash, ND isn't the spotless child anymore. Might as well start winning.

Seriously, I don't even understand the argument anymore. Go read any "national media" thinkpiece... they all mention Declan Sullivan, Lizzy Seeberg, academic scandals, sanctions, arrests, etc.

If people want to win "the right way" I don't even know what the hell that means, because perception is all that matters and we are NOT perceived to be doing things "the right way." I bet if you polled average people nationwide most people would off-the-cuff say Clemson and UNC run more clean programs than Notre Dame. Think about that for a second.

 

[ACamp1900]

Seriously, I don't even understand the argument anymore. Go read any "national media" thinkpiece... they all mention Declan Sullivan, Lizzy Seeberg, academic scandals, sanctions, arrests, etc.

If people want to win "the right way" I don't even know what the hell that means, because perception is all that matters and we are NOT perceived to be doing things "the right way." I bet if you polled average people nationwide most people would off-the-cuff say Clemson and UNC run more clean programs than Notre Dame. Think about that for a second.

Totally agree... My sports fan friends who aren't all in on ND or even cfb generally are taken aback when I talk about what ND does in recruiting and what ND actually got hit for with this NCAA stuff... they all think ND is the wild west and was/is massively cheating, because that's the narrative.

Stuff like, "You'd think with all the dirty shit they are doing they'd actually be good at football once in a while," is common place among the average fan.... it's crazy how far from reality and yet how widely accepted it is...

 

[stlnd01]

... and then ND makes the playoff next year and the cycle continues....

I think at this point most people would consider a playoff appearance to be success, no?

 

[Ndaccountant]

Seriously, I don't even understand the argument anymore. Go read any "national media" thinkpiece... they all mention Declan Sullivan, Lizzy Seeberg, academic scandals, sanctions, arrests, etc.

If people want to win "the right way" I don't even know what the hell that means, because perception is all that matters and we are NOT perceived to be doing things "the right way." I bet if you polled average people nationwide most people would off-the-cuff say Clemson and UNC run more clean programs than Notre Dame. Think about that for a second.

IMO, that is one of the many reasons why BK is basically done at ND, whether he is fired tomorrow or not. All of those things you mentioned happened on his watch. ND has taken a more pronounced hands off approach with Kelly and it didn't work. In fact, it blew up in their face. I think, eventually, there will be an over correction. How far that goes and what it impacts is something we will have to see. But after spending the weekend with numerous alumni, the sample group is more pissed about the appearance of the program than the actual W's and L's.

 

[ACamp1900]

I think at this point most people would consider a playoff appearance to be success, no?

Yes, that was my point,.. but in there too was the assumption that it would be a one off with no real chance of actually winning anything...

 

[MNIrishman]

... and then ND makes the playoff next year and the cycle continues....

Worse things have happened

 

[ACamp1900]

Worse things have happened

I mean, who wouldn't rather go 4-8???

 

[NDgradstudent]

What does this even mean anymore? News flash, ND isn't the spotless child anymore. Might as well start winning.

Notre Dame has never been the "spotless child." This isn't the first academic 'scandal' that has happened at ND. What is different is here is that the graduation rates (especially for the sports with low graduation rates- football and men's basketball) are among the highest in the country. ND doesn't admit players it doesn't think can graduate.

The standards are not preventing us from winning. The only games the past two seasons where that argument is even possible are the ones against USC and OSU.

 

[ND NYC]

always been a Kelly supporter but I think ND (and Kelly, the players) needs a change at this point.

could/would benefit everyone.

in terms of football wins and losses do you think if/when Kelly leaves and gets a HC gig he wins more football games than ND does in the future?

 

[phgreek]

can see the o-line improving greatly next year, the DL not so much. If special teams can at least stop turning ball over, giving up return TD's then ND will be in with a great shout in every game

Oline improvement is certainly more likely...

But the O-line and D-line play haven't been great.

As painful as it is, I encourage folks to watch an Ohio State or Alabama game. Those folks are playing ball across both lines, year in and year out.

When you see that, then turn on ND vs anyone...there is an obvious difference there.

The performance gap isn't obvious anywhere else (ignoring BVG defensive paralysis), and hasn't been for 3 years. But it is OBVIOUS and persistent on the lines. You either get the LOS, or you do not. Since the 2007 debacle, I have been hard over that #1 position group is Oline, and #2 is Dline. The last 2 coaches have shown you can get great talent at skill positions...but NO ONE has owned the LOS issue.

 

[irishff1014]

What does this even mean anymore? News flash, ND isn't the spotless child anymore. Might as well start winning.

If you ask me 6 questions and I get the first one wrong but the rest right the only thing will be said is look he got the first one wrong.

Most people don't care anymore about right and wrong. I am not saying Kelly is perfect because he isn't and I have aired my thoughts but the man is doing it the right way here. If you don't like the academic requires go root for another team.

 

[IrishLax]

Oline improvement is certainly more likely...

But the O-line and D-line play haven't been great.

As painful as it is, I encourage folks to watch an Ohio State or Alabama game. Those folks are playing ball across both lines, year in and year out.

When you see that, then turn on ND vs anyone...there is an obvious difference there.

The performance gap isn't obvious anywhere else (ignoring BVG defensive paralysis), and hasn't been for 3 years. But it is OBVIOUS and persistent on the lines. You either get the LOS, or you do not. Since the 2007 debacle, I have been hard over that #1 position group is Oline, and #2 is Dline. The last 2 coaches have shown you can get great talent at skill positions...but NO ONE has owned the LOS issue.

Why do people say OL play hasn't been great? It was arguably the best in the entire country last year. It was EXTREMELY good in 2012 as well, and very good in 2013. It was 'meh' in 2014.

Basically, it proves your point. In the years where we've had a dominant OL and therefor a great running game we've had our best seasons. People need to respect the fact that Hiestand has put together some great seasons of OL play and stop acting like it's shit every year. That's not supported by facts.

 

[wizards8507]

Why do people say OL play hasn't been great? It was arguably the best in the entire country last year. It was EXTREMELY good in 2012 as well, and very good in 2013. It was 'meh' in 2014.

Basically, it proves your point. In the years where we've had a dominant OL and therefor a great running game we've had our best seasons. People need to respect the fact that Hiestand has put together some great seasons of OL play and stop acting like it's shit every year. That's not supported by facts.

I think the issue people have with our OL play is situational, not statistical. We might average decent / good / very good statistics, but there are also situations where we need a tough third-and-two or fourth-and-goal and we're unable to get any kind of push to convert. Our entire playbook is that of a team that doesn't have a dominant OL. If we do, then we should run plays that showcase it.

 

[IrishLax]

I think the issue people have with our OL play is situational, not statistical. We might average decent / good / very good statistics, but there are also situations where we need a tough third-and-two or fourth-and-goal and we're unable to get any kind of push to convert. Our entire playbook is that of a team that doesn't have a dominant OL. If we do, then we should run plays that showcase it.

Best YPC last year for a team that ran as much as we did, best "well blocked" run rate. Prosise and Adams dominated... I think we did well showcasing it.

I agree with what you're saying, they look at RZ play calling and hate shotgun; or anecdotal plays where we "can't get a tough yard against a stacked box" and equate that to "OL sucks." The problem is scheme, not the OL play. You'll notice in the USC game we for the first time (ever? this season?) just got up to the line with an athletic QB and snuck it in for the yard we needed. People wonder where that's been. And why the hell we haven't gone under center at all the past few years to get more effective downhill running and stuff and I get that... but that is not the same thing as the OL playing poorly.

The repeated and unfounded OL criticism is becoming a bit of a ND trope.

 

[NDRock]

Best YPC last year for a team that ran as much as we did, best "well blocked" run rate. Prosise and Adams dominated... I think we did well showcasing it.

I agree with what you're saying, they look at RZ play calling and hate shotgun; or anecdotal plays where we "can't get a tough yard against a stacked box" and equate that to "OL sucks." The problem is scheme, not the OL play. You'll notice in the USC game we for the first time (ever? this season?) just got up to the line with an athletic QB and snuck it in for the yard we needed. People wonder where that's been. And why the hell we haven't gone under center at all the past few years to get more effective downhill running and stuff and I get that... but that is not the same thing as the OL playing poorly.

The repeated and unfounded OL criticism is becoming a bit of a ND trope.

Completely agree. To me the problem has almost always been a scheme issue.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I think the issue people have with our OL play is situational, not statistical. We might average decent / good / very good statistics, but there are also situations where we need a tough third-and-two or fourth-and-goal and we're unable to get any kind of push to convert. Our entire playbook is that of a team that doesn't have a dominant OL. If we do, then we should run plays that showcase it.

FO has a stat called power success rate which is a percentage of runs on third or fourth down, two yards or less to go, that achieved a first down or touchdown.

Year Rate Rank
2016 76% 20
2015 67% 58
2014 69% 44

Those are the only years they have been tracking for CFB as far as I know.

The other complaint is "big chunks" versus steady " 3 yards and a cloud of dust". Well, FO tracks this too (sort of) with stuff rate - percentage of carries by running backs that are stopped at or before the line of scrimmage.

Year Rate Rank
2016 17% 31
2015 21% 87
2014 18% 42

Irony is that 2015 was the worst year for the metric, which also highlights that the running success of that team was based on explosiveness and that was lacking this year and in 2014. This can distort our view. That is why this final stat is needed to tie it all together.

Opportunity Rate: The percentage of carries (when five yards are available) that gain at least five yards, i.e. the percentage of carries in which the line does its job, so to speak.

Year Rate Rank
2016 41% 48
2015 45% 4
2014 43% 24

Not sure there is much more to say......

 

[phgreek]

Best YPC last year for a team that ran as much as we did, best "well blocked" run rate. Prosise and Adams dominated... I think we did well showcasing it.

I agree with what you're saying, they look at RZ play calling and hate shotgun; or anecdotal plays where we "can't get a tough yard against a stacked box" and equate that to "OL sucks." The problem is scheme, not the OL play. You'll notice in the USC game we for the first time (ever? this season?) just got up to the line with an athletic QB and snuck it in for the yard we needed. People wonder where that's been. And why the hell we haven't gone under center at all the past few years to get more effective downhill running and stuff and I get that... but that is not the same thing as the OL playing poorly.

The repeated and unfounded OL criticism is becoming a bit of a ND trope.

I don't see the O line as great. I see them as having had serviceable years, and some standout players...But look at them against playoff contenders. I don't see either ND unit owning the LOS against top 15 competition...I do see it with Alabama and Ohio State. Shrug. You can get upset, but there is indeed a basis for criticism over the last few years. You think if ND owned the LOS, they'd be damn near 0 for the last few years against playoff contenders?

 

[BabyIrish]

I don't see the O line as great. I see them as having had serviceable years, and some standout players...But look at them against playoff contenders. I don't see either ND unit owning the LOS against top 15 competition...I do see it with Alabama and Ohio State. Shrug. You can get upset, but there is indeed a basis for criticism over the last few years. You think if ND owned the LOS, they'd be damn near 0 for the last few years against playoff contenders?

I watched the Ohio State game this past weekend and their Oline got murderd against Michigan. Kirk mentioned that there RT was consistently getting beat on a regular basis throughout the season. It's not as bad as your making it out to be.

 

[dwshade]

After listening to the II podcast it sounds highly likely that Kelly will be back next year. One thing they mentioned which I would like to see is make Sanford your OC 100%. Meaning he calls the plays.

 

[dwshade]

I watched the Ohio State game this past weekend and their Oline got murderd against Michigan. Kirk mentioned that there RT was consistently getting beat on a regular basis throughout the season. It's not as bad as your making it out to be.

Yep Michigan owned the OSU OL on Saturday.

 

[NorthDakota]

Yep Michigan owned the OSU OL on Saturday.

Barrett got sacked several times

 

[kmoose]

I watched the Ohio State game this past weekend and their Oline got murderd against Michigan. Kirk mentioned that there RT was consistently getting beat on a regular basis throughout the season. It's not as bad as your making it out to be.

I wouldn't say "murdered", but Michigan did keep it close by controlling the line of scrimmage. Then Meyer turned Barrett loose, and it was all over. Penn State beat OSU by winning the LOS, as well.