What video game are you playing?

wizards8507

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Yeah that is what I was getting at. GTA V was barely enough single player. If I'm not getting 50+ hours worth if single player I will definitely not buy on the release date.
Really? 50+ hours is up in Bethesda territory. I don't think that's necessarily a reasonable baseline. I know all I've talked about lately is Overwatch (because it's all I play), but that game gave me zero hours of single player and I got my money's worth.
 

IrishLion

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I broke out the first one last night and played it for the first time. Not too shabby. Horse mechanics are a bit clunky, as is the "use cover" feature in a shootout, but that is small potatoes considering the fun I had playing just through three missions and going after one bounty.

I helped the Sheriff in Armadillo clear out a church, and then helped him clear out a Canyon full of outlaws. Before that, I had shot some coyotes and rabbits at the ranch with Beth, and went after an outlaw at Hanging Rock. After I killed him and his posse, bros kept coming after me in the countryside. Harvested a lot of ammo and cash. And I really like the mechanics of being able to shoot from horseback.
 

ACamp1900

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I think it's a bit of a leap to say that sentence indicates anything about the game's focus. If I was writing a paragraph and wanted to also tell people that the game had online multiplayer that sentence would be how I would write it.

Agreed.

I think people it's a combination of trends AND that statement.. hopefully they just do what I said previously and have a game that is impressive both on and offline.
 

greyhammer90

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Really? 50+ hours is up in Bethesda territory. I don't think that's necessarily a reasonable baseline. I know all I've talked about lately is Overwatch (because it's all I play), but that game gave me zero hours of single player and I got my money's worth.

Yeah GTA V took me a long time to get through the main story. Then you add in the mayhem, the assassination missions, the minigames, the races, the driving/piloting schools, etc. I don't know how a reasonable person could say that game wasn't a great value, and I never played GTA Online once.
 

gkIrish

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Yeah GTA V took me a long time to get through the main story. Then you add in the mayhem, the assassination missions, the minigames, the races, the driving/piloting schools, etc. I don't know how a reasonable person could say that game wasn't a great value, and I never played GTA Online once.

GTA V was enough value, but I think if you chopped off 10-20 hours it may not have been.

Really? 50+ hours is up in Bethesda territory. I don't think that's necessarily a reasonable baseline. I know all I've talked about lately is Overwatch (because it's all I play), but that game gave me zero hours of single player and I got my money's worth.

When I say 50 hours I don't mean just the main story. I mean all the side missions and everything you can pretty much do besides multiplayer. I played Red Dead for easily 75 hours. I would be disappointed in anything less than 50.
 

ACamp1900

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Yeah GTA V took me a long time to get through the main story. Then you add in the mayhem, the assassination missions, the minigames, the races, the driving/piloting schools, etc. I don't know how a reasonable person could say that game wasn't a great value, and I never played GTA Online once.

I still play and like it... it was noticeably shorter than other GTAs and the Bethesda games as already mentioned... it's not that GTA wasn't worth it, it's a worry that the trend is going to be increasingly shorter and more limited offline experiences moving forward... here's hopefully RD puts those worries to rest...
 

Meatloaf

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If GTA V is anything to go by, Rockstar will put together a very good single player campaign that would be worth the $60 alone. The issue I have with the multiplayer, however, is its potential impact on DLC. I'm worried that they'll do exactly what they did with GTA V where they forego single player DLC content in favor of adding a bunch of superfluous, microtransactional shit to muliplayer modes. If you guys can't tell I don't play a lot of multiplayer games lol.
 

wizards8507

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I still play and like it... it was noticeably shorter than other GTAs and the Bethesda games as already mentioned... it's not that GTA wasn't worth it, it's a worry that the trend is going to be increasingly shorter and more limited offline experiences moving forward... here's hopefully RD puts those worries to rest...
The problem that the industry doesn't want to acknowledge is twofold.

1) Video games are too cheap. People were paying $50-$60 for SNES games in 1991.

2) Game resale destroys the primary market. Microsoft was exactly correct when they wanted to introduce digital-only games that couldn't be resold on the Xbox One but they were labeled "anti-consumer." People don't realize that they're signing themselves up for DLC and microtransactions when they cut developers out of the equation buying used games. If games were digital only, that means developers would get a cut of every single copy of their game sold and they wouldn't have to resort to elaborate monetization schemes.
 

IrishBroker

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The problem that the industry doesn't want to acknowledge is twofold.

1) Video games are too cheap. People were paying $50-$60 for SNES games in 1991.

2) Game resale destroys the primary market. Microsoft was exactly correct when they wanted to introduce digital-only games that couldn't be resold on the Xbox One but they were labeled "anti-consumer." People don't realize that they're signing themselves up for DLC and microtransactions when they cut developers out of the equation buying used games. If games were digital only, that means developers would get a cut of every single copy of their game sold and they wouldn't have to resort to elaborate monetization schemes.

Secondary market is a good thing. Especially since many games either just plain suck, or go obsolete within months (like sports games every year). At least there is a place to get rid of bad games and last years sports games.

Also, finding parts and old systems and discontinued games is much easier.
 

Whiskeyjack

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1) Video games are too cheap. People were paying $50-$60 for SNES games in 1991.

Doubt it. The market is just way more competitive than it used to be. Small indy developers are regularly putting out excellent games through Steam for $5-$10 nowadays. That wasn't possible 20 years ago.

2) Game resale destroys the primary market. Microsoft was exactly correct when they wanted to introduce digital-only games that couldn't be resold on the Xbox One but they were labeled "anti-consumer." People don't realize that they're signing themselves up for DLC and microtransactions when they cut developers out of the equation buying used games. If games were digital only, that means developers would get a cut of every single copy of their game sold and they wouldn't have to resort to elaborate monetization schemes.

No one forces them to sell hard copies. Pretty much every AAA title can now be downloaded directly to your console if you don't want to drive to Best Buy or wait for Amazon to deliver.
 
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IrishLion

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The problem that the industry doesn't want to acknowledge is twofold.

1) Video games are too cheap. People were paying $50-$60 for SNES games in 1991.

2) Game resale destroys the primary market. Microsoft was exactly correct when they wanted to introduce digital-only games that couldn't be resold on the Xbox One but they were labeled "anti-consumer." People don't realize that they're signing themselves up for DLC and microtransactions when they cut developers out of the equation buying used games. If games were digital only, that means developers would get a cut of every single copy of their game sold and they wouldn't have to resort to elaborate monetization schemes.

Gotta disagree here. It is likely that *some* additional content might be available for free... but I'd bet that, even in a market where used games are eliminated, you're still going to have the biggest developers hitting you with charges and microtransactions. They want to maximize profit. EA, Rockstar, etc. know that they have a product that people will pay for, regardless of the secondary market.

If GTA6 were to be digital-only, Rockstar isn't suddenly going to make their DLC free.
 

wizards8507

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Secondary market is a good thing. Especially since many games either just plain suck, or go obsolete within months (like sports games every year). At least there is a place to get rid of bad games and last years sports games.
I think exactly what you're describing is part of the problem. It incentivizes the production of sucky games. People have no qualms about forking over $60 for Call of Duty 86 because they know they'll be able to resell it at GameStop for $40 a month later. If that option weren't there, Activision would have to be damn sure they're making games that are actually good or nobody will buy them.

Also, finding parts and old systems...
Hardware resale is fine.

...and discontinued games is much easier.
Tell that to PC gamers. I bought SimCity 2000 (released over twenty years ago) on Origin for like $5 a few months ago. Think I'd find a hard copy of SimCity 2000 in my local GameStop? Think an eBay copy would run on Windows 10? Definitely not. If everything was digital, the content would live in the cloud in perpetuity. Nothing would ever go out of production and there'd be no such thing as a "discontinued game." The inventory would be literally infinite.

Doubt it. The market is just way more competitive than it used to be. Small indy developers are regularly putting out excellent games through Steam for $5-$10 nowadays. That wasn't possible 20 years ago.
I'm talking more about the big AAA releases. A $60 game isn't really $60 when they're raking in hundreds of millions of dollars on DLC and microtransactions. I'd rather pay $100 for a complete game than pay $60 once plus four $10 expansions.

No one forces them to sell hard copies. Pretty much every AAA title can now be downloaded directly to your console now if you don't want to drive to Best Buy or wait for Amazon to deliver.
Do you spend any time on YouTube? If PewDiePie, Markiplier, TotalBiscuit, Boogie2988, et. al. label a business practice "anti-consumer," their legions of fanboys are going to fall in line, critical thinking be damned. The developers have to pander to the YouTubers and that's part of the problem.

Gotta disagree here. It is likely that *some* additional content might be available for free... but I'd bet that, even in a market where used games are eliminated, you're still going to have the biggest developers hitting you with charges and microtransactions. They want to maximize profit. EA, Rockstar, etc. know that they have a product that people will pay for, regardless of the secondary market.
I don't know. If people are paying $80 for a new game instead of $40 used at GameStop, they're going to be much more sensitive to the game's quality at launch. It better be full and complete. The developers would want to continue selling additional content, but would people be willing to pay for it?

If GTA6 were to be digital-only, Rockstar isn't suddenly going to make their DLC free.
Not all DLC is created equal. Red Dead Redemption was a full and complete game. Then they released Undead Nightmare, which was legitimate expansion to the original game so people were willing to pay for it. That's much different than card packs in the EA games or the fatality cheats in Mortal Kombat.
 
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NorthDakota

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I think exactly what you're describing is part of the problem. It incentivizes the production of sucky games. People have no qualms about forking over $60 for Call of Duty 86 because they know they'll be able to resell it at GameStop for $40 a month later. If that option weren't there, Activision would have to be damn sure they're making games that are actually good or nobody will buy them.


Hardware resale is fine.


Tell that to PC gamers. I bought SimCity 2000 (released over twenty years ago) on Origin for like $5 a few months ago. Think I'd find a hard copy of SimCity 2000 in my local GameStop? Think an eBay copy would run on Windows 10? Definitely not. If everything was digital, the content would live in the cloud in perpetuity. Nothing would ever go out of production and there'd be no such thing as a "discontinued game." The inventory would be literally infinite.

Sim City 2000 lol. Sim city 4 is pretty good. Get yourself some skylines though.
 

IrishBroker

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I think exactly what you're describing is part of the problem. It incentivizes the production of sucky games. People have no qualms about forking over $60 for Call of Duty 86 because they know they'll be able to resell it at GameStop for $40 a month later. If that option weren't there, Activision would have to be damn sure they're making games that are actually good or nobody will buy them.


Hardware resale is fine.


Tell that to PC gamers. I bought SimCity 2000 (released over twenty years ago) on Origin for like $5 a few months ago. Think I'd find a hard copy of SimCity 2000 in my local GameStop? Think an eBay copy would run on Windows 10? Definitely not. If everything was digital, the content would live in the cloud in perpetuity. Nothing would ever go out of production and there'd be no such thing as a "discontinued game." The inventory would be literally infinite.

PC gamers are not the primary target of those secondary shops. At all. So that doesn't even apply to this argument.


And you're also forgetting that there are a lot more developers now than there were back in 91...so it's 10 times more competitive than it used to be. That alone is the best way to keep them putting out better games.
 

wizards8507

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PC gamers are not the primary target of those secondary shops. At all. So that doesn't even apply to this argument.
That wasn't my point. My point is that consoles can now support digital delivery in a way that only PCs could do not that many years ago. The console market is becoming more like the PC market, not the other way around.
 

IrishLion

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I don't know. If people are paying $80 for a new game instead of $40 used at GameStop, they're going to be much more sensitive to the game's quality at launch. It better be full and complete. The developers would want to continue selling additional content, but would people be willing to pay for it?

That's my point... they WILL continue to sell it, and people WILL continue to pay for it, because there aren't other options when it comes to the supply/demand of the biggest titles and publishers. If I'm a GTA nutcase, I know that I can't get a satisfying GTA experience from anybody but Rockstar. And Rockstar knows it, too. So, even if you eliminate the secondary market, Rockstar would be fools to not maximize their profit. They might advertise "complete content and all DLC included!"... but it's going to come at an unreasonable price point, one that is probably comparable to price points for attaining all DLC in the current, secondary-enabled market anyway.

So there's really no change, aside from eliminating the consumer's ability to sell their merchandise once they're done with it.

Not all DLC is created equal. Red Dead Redemption was a full and complete game. Then they released Undead Nightmare, which was legitimate expansion to the original game so people were willing to pay for it. That's much different than card packs in the EA games or the fatality cheats in Mortal Kombat.

Right, so in a market that eliminates used games, micro-transactions are still an important aspect of maintaining a competitive edge, and we are then putting our faith in publishers to give us more content for a more-fair price... as I tried to state in my answer above, I just don't trust publishers to do that. They're still going to charge for major DLC, because nothing is stopping them from doing so.
 

IrishBroker

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That wasn't my point. My point is that consoles can now support digital delivery in a way that only PCs could do not that many years ago. The console market is becoming more like the PC market, not the other way around.

Of course. Which is creating demand for hard copies.

Personally, I'd rather actually "Own" the hard copy of a game. That way, if my PS4 craps out or the PSnetwork goes haywire, I still have what I paid for.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I'm talking more about the big AAA releases. A $60 game isn't really $60 when they're raking in hundreds of millions of dollars on DLC and microtransactions. I'd rather pay $100 for a complete game than pay $60 once plus four $10 expansions.

The companies that release those titles are hugely profitable. It's a $20 billion industry now. They do premium DLC and microtransactions because it makes them more money, not because they're held hostage by unreasonable consumers and YouTube celebrities.

Do you spend any time on YouTube? If PewDiePie, Markiplier, TotalBiscuit, Boogie2988, et. al. label a business practice "anti-consumer," their legions of fanboys are going to fall in line, critical thinking be damned. The developers have to pander to the YouTubers and that's part of the problem.

That's just not how this stuff works. If a large developer claimed they were going digital-only in order to cut manufacturing and delivery costs, and that they planned to pass on the savings to the consumer through a lower retail price, free DLC, etc., they'd be praised endlessly.
 

wizards8507

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That's just not how this stuff works. If a large developer claimed they were going digital-only in order to cut manufacturing and delivery costs, and that they planned to pass on the savings to the consumer through a lower retail price, free DLC, etc., they'd be praised endlessly.
I'm not talking in theory, this actually happened. Before the Xbox One launched, Microsoft said exactly that. They were torn to shreds and caved to the pressure.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I'm not talking in theory, this actually happened. Before the Xbox One launched, Microsoft said exactly that. They were torn to shreds and caved to the pressure.

Regardless, the console and PC gaming markets are quickly converging, and the example of Steam completely refutes your argument about video games being too cheap/ forcing developers to rely on innovations like premium DLC and microtransactions, etc. The video game market has grown exponentially over the last decade, which has predictably made it much more competitive. So now consumers rightfully expect more from a $60 game than they did 20 years ago.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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Thanks to this board, I cracked open The Witcher again last night and got sucked down the rabbit hole.........

Until 2 am.

I need to restart my current campaign. I made it through about 20-25% if i recall correctly. Still a ton of stuff to do but I put my box away for the summer and just now considered bringing it back out.
 

IrishBroker

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Regardless, the console and PC gaming markets are quickly converging, and the example of Steam completely refutes your argument about video games being too cheap/ forcing developers to rely on innovations like premium DLC and microtransactions, etc. The video game market has grown exponentially over the last decade, which has predictably made it much more competitive. So now consumers rightfully expect more from a $60 game than they did 20 years ago.

And you must consider that charging 100 bucks for a video game would eliminate a ton of business because I doubt families are going to want to fork over that much for video games.

it's one thing for us gamers to pay 70-100 bucks...it's another for a family (or single mom or dad) to pony that up for their kids
 

IrishBroker

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I need to restart my current campaign. I made it through about 20-25% if i recall correctly. Still a ton of stuff to do but I put my box away for the summer and just now considered bringing it back out.

I forgot how amazing it was.

And I noticed that I forgot some quests as well
 

ulukinatme

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To be fair, Wizards mentioned that in '91 there were SNES games that were $50 and $60. That's true, but most of the $60-70 were expansive RPGs like Squaresoft titles that gave you 60-80 hours of content often times. Most other games couldn't offer that kind of content, a lot of games were designed to be beaten in a day or two, or even an evening. It was almost silly to consider we paid what we did for those games! These days I don't even spend $40 on a short game I can beat in an evening, I just wait till it's $20 or less either in a second hand market or on Steam.

Also, things are a bit different today when it comes to the video game industry. Doing some research on Kotaku, games in the early 90s were expensive relatively speaking. The industry has made advances in manufacturing over the years which helped alleviate the high cost of producing games. Digital copies are one of those ways. Also, back in the day 3rd party companies used to have to pay Nintendo large royalties to release games for their systems, and the consumer ate those royalties. They had to find ways to cut costs to keep the valuation constant as I'm sure most of them realized the average consumer wasn't going to regularly spend $80-100 for a video game. Back then that was nearly the cost of a system!

As far as the second hand market, I'm partially on the fence but I definitely lean towards needing that market. Personally I don't sell my video games anymore, at least not at this stage. I keep everything, mostly because I'll get nostalgic for some games and I end up wanting to play them again. There are some real stinkers I've bought over the years that I probably could offload, and some are worth good money due to their rarity, but I'd rather just collect at this point and hoard them. That said, I've bought used games in the past and will continue to do so. If people want to sell their games they SHOULD be able to. When you purchase a game it's yours, you should be able to do with it what you want. That gets sketchy when we're talking digital copies, but in that case you're purchasing a license and not a physical copy, which is why I always go for a disc when possible. I do think eventually the industry will go almost entirely digital. I don't know if they'll ever go completely digital though. As long as the internet isn't free, there will be a subset of gamers that will want offline content that doesn't require you to download a game.

As far as the whole digital market and legacy games, the argument is kind of invalid when it comes to availability of old titles and the ability to run on today's machines. While it's always going to be easier to buy an older game like Sim City 2000 as a digital Steam rerelease, times have changed and it's not that difficult to get many games to run on today's systems. A lot of those old DOS based games can be run in utilities like DOSBox with little setup to get them to run. I'll admit I've rebought a few of my old games, like Fallout 2, because it's easier just to launch it in Steam rather than tweaking it to run on Windows 7, but I've made adjustments to my older games like KOTOR, Imperialism, and TIE Fighter to get them to run in my current Windows box.
 

IrishLion

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Like Ulukinatme, I'm a big fan of having the disc. I'm the same way with collecting blu-ray movies. If the sh*t hits the fan and some cloud gets completely compromised/wiped, I've got my hard copy to fall back on when things are up and running again, and I won't need to worry about proving/reactivating a digital license.

Also, the secondary market allows kids and the poors the ability to stay in the fray, and that gives me the warm and fuzzies. Whether they *should* be buying games or not, I think it's cool that the secondary market allows those less fortunate to keep themselves or their kids in the loop via second-hand options.
 

IrishinSyria

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I don't know if games are "too cheap" but I would definitely pay $100 for a fully fleshed out RDRII.

I think part of the problem with AAA titles today is that you actually reach a point where increased scope actually decreases what you can do with the game.

A good example would be comparing Morrowind to Skyrim. Skyrim is a much more polished product but it ultimately lacks a lot of the small details and risky systems Morrowind had. It's easier to coordinate when you're working in small teams and it's harder to justify taking big risks when you've got $100 million dollars invested in development.

I read a good article about it and can't find it, but both of these make the point:

Why I Quit my Dream Job at Ubisoft | Gingear Studio
https://www.destructoid.com/aaa-game-development-teams-are-too-damn-big-247366.phtml
 

ulukinatme

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I don't know if games are "too cheap" but I would definitely pay $100 for a fully fleshed out RDRII.

I think part of the problem with AAA titles today is that you actually reach a point where increased scope actually decreases what you can do with the game.

A good example would be comparing Morrowind to Skyrim. Skyrim is a much more polished product but it ultimately lacks a lot of the small details and risky systems Morrowind had. It's easier to coordinate when you're working in small teams and it's harder to justify taking big risks when you've got $100 million dollars invested in development.

I read a good article about it and can't find it, but both of these make the point:

Why I Quit my Dream Job at Ubisoft | Gingear Studio
https://www.destructoid.com/aaa-game-development-teams-are-too-damn-big-247366.phtml

I still argue that $100 is too much for a fully fleshed out game. Call me cheap, but the most I'm generally willing to spend for a complete game is in the $80 range, and that's reserved for titles like Fallout for me. That's where developers have made a smart move and offered Season Passes. I think they realize that some users are probably going to sour on some of their games. Some gamers aren't going to buy every one of their DLCs. Some may pick and choose or not get any of them. By offering a cheaper Season Pass for $20 or so they can get the consumer's cash up front at a discount. It's good for them, and in a small way it's good for the consumer because they save some cash (Unless they end up not liking the game and were ultimately going to decide not to purchase DLC after they got to play it).

As far as Skyrim and Morrowind, I don't know I'd say Skyrim was more polished. In some ways that may be true, but Bethesda also dumbed the game down quite a bit. They've done the same with the Fallout franchise when they made 4, taking out features that have been around from the start like Karma. Obviously from a graphics and audio perspective they've improved things quite a bit, but beyond that? It's hard to say. Bethesda really mailed it in with some of the quest arcs in Skyrim, namely the Mages guild (Or whatever they called that college...the whole section was forgettable and made me disappointed as a pure Mage). Long story short, I feel like Bethesda has gone in the wrong direction. They've taken out some content and replaced it with "Radiant" quests which are meant to be repeatable, but often times end up boring and forgettable. Radiant quests aren't content, and I don't know anyone that continues to do them more than a few times once they complete a major quest arc. They're ultimately boring and pointless. I'm sure Bethesda caved to some people that were looking for more to do once they complete something like the Dark Brotherhood quest lines, but the time they spent creating Radiant quests could have been better served creating meaningful content.
 

ACamp1900

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I still argue that $100 is too much for a fully fleshed out game. Call me cheap, but the most I'm generally willing to spend for a complete game is in the $80 range, and that's reserved for titles like Fallout for me.

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