Wake Forest Post Game Thread

[TheIrishAre#1]

The most important aspect Book brought was the energy that lifted the level of play and lifted the confidence of his teammates. It seemed like the WR’s and TE’s were crisper and played with more energy than the last two games.

This is something that cannot be overstated. Even with Wimbush in, throughout the first three games, I've felt that Notre Dame has serious athlete and playmakers at WR and TE that need to get the ball consistently. I really wish this change was made sooner, so we'd have more to work with, but I still stand by my statement that the receiving game is much improved over last year. Last year, the WRs and TEs didn't help Wimbush and were actively a detriment to his completion %. From the three data points we have with Wimbush this season, although the athleticism was obviously there last year, they bailed him out consistently this year. I don't believe this is going to be a Notre Dame team that can hang their hat on the OL and the run game. Whoever plays QB is going to need to get the ball to playmakers quickly and accurately, and they've really been reeling in passes much better than last year. Give them a chance and I think the offense will look better, regardless of the defense they're lined up against.

 

[greyhammer90]

It's been awhile since I've watched an ND game and felt bad for the other QB. That poor guy was getting teed off on all game.

 

[Huntr]

Wake really sucks. But, ND drilled them, like good teams are supposed to do to teams that suck. It's what they didn't do the Ball St and Vandy that they should have. Going to Book was a smart move - I don't believe ND would have beaten them like that with Wimbush at QB. Not to hate on the kid, but they just needed something different on offense, something that gives it a different look and sparks the kind of play they got yesterday.

It's hard to judge because Wake is so bad, but I thought everyone played well. I know this: they can beat Stanford next week.

 

[Jimmy3Putt]

It's been awhile since I've watched an ND game and felt bad for the other QB. That poor guy was getting teed off on all game.

The play calling did him no favors, but he's definitely feeling it this morning.

 

[IrishLax]

This is something that cannot be overstated. Even with Wimbush in, throughout the first three games, I've felt that Notre Dame has serious athlete and playmakers at WR and TE that need to get the ball consistently. I really wish this change was made sooner, so we'd have more to work with, but I still stand by my statement that the receiving game is much improved over last year. Last year, the WRs and TEs didn't help Wimbush and were actively a detriment to his completion %. From the three data points we have with Wimbush this season, although the athleticism was obviously there last year, they bailed him out consistently this year. I don't believe this is going to be a Notre Dame team that can hang their hat on the OL and the run game. Whoever plays QB is going to need to get the ball to playmakers quickly and accurately, and they've really been reeling in passes much better than last year. Give them a chance and I think the offense will look better, regardless of the defense they're lined up against.

Yeah, this was the main issue IMO. It falls both on Wimbush and the play calling.

ND consistently got "behind" the sticks with Wimbush at QB because he would miss a throw or take a negative play or have a run stuffed. Yesterday, Book kept the offense on schedule by minimizing the number of errant throws and getting small chunks of yards versus a 0 whenever he could. The screen game with Book is also much more dangerous than the disaster it was with Wimbush.

Considering how good the offense looked with Wimbush on scripted plays to start the game and when the play calling wasn't repetitive/predictable I remain fully convinced that one of the primary issues is that Long didn't know how to call the game for Wimbush. Tons of slow developing zone-read with an OL that can't sustain blocks, tons of screen passes to the right side when they know he can't do that, run the ball almost every time on first down, asking him to go through progressions and hold the ball in the pocket forever... it was never, ever going to work. He was not put in the position to be successful, because his skillset is limited.

Long/Kelly clearly know how to call a game for Book. Get the tight ends involved in the middle of the field, spread the defense out and make them press up because Book is A+ at distributing the ball in the screen game then gash them with runs up the middle once they've done that, tons of timing throws where the ball comes out of his hands in 2 seconds. If Book shows the ability to push the ball down the field, this is a 30+ point a game type of offense because you can't defend the run AND the deep pass AND the wide pass all with regularity. It's not going to be an "explosive" offense that has a lot of 3 play 75 yard drives, but it'll be methodical and consistent.

 

[SouthernIndianaNDFan]

Yeah, this was the main issue IMO. It falls both on Wimbush and the play calling.

ND consistently got "behind" the sticks with Wimbush at QB because he would miss a throw or take a negative play or have a run stuffed. Yesterday, Book kept the offense on schedule by minimizing the number of errant throws and getting small chunks of yards versus a 0 whenever he could. The screen game with Book is also much more dangerous than the disaster it was with Wimbush.

Considering how good the offense looked with Wimbush on scripted plays to start the game and when the play calling wasn't repetitive/predictable I remain fully convinced that one of the primary issues is that Long didn't know how to call the game for Wimbush. Tons of slow developing zone-read with an OL that can't sustain blocks, tons of screen passes to the right side when they know he can't do that, run the ball almost every time on first down, asking him to go through progressions and hold the ball in the pocket forever... it was never, ever going to work. He was not put in the position to be successful, because his skillset is limited.

Long/Kelly clearly know how to call a game for Book. Get the tight ends involved in the middle of the field, spread the defense out and make them press up because Book is A+ at distributing the ball in the screen game then gash them with runs up the middle once they've done that, tons of timing throws where the ball comes out of his hands in 2 seconds. If Book shows the ability to push the ball down the field, this is a 30+ point a game type of offense because you can't defend the run AND the deep pass AND the wide pass all with regularity. It's not going to be an "explosive" offense that has a lot of 3 play 75 yard drives, but it'll be methodical and consistent.

And that's okay, we don't have to be the Chip Kelly Oregon offense with how well the defense plays. Those are all really good points, man. The question becomes can he eventually start to look deep once teams have prepped the entire week for him rather than Wimbush? Teams are going to start formulating their gameplans for him, and there are going to be times where they're going to force him to air it out, can he do that with any consistency? I also think that there has to still be packages that include BW, based on the point I touched on earlier, teams are gonna prep for Book and there will eventually be some regression based on this. Allowing BW to still come in and keep defenses on their heels is a must, imo.

 

[Dizzyphil]

Yeah, this was the main issue IMO. It falls both on Wimbush and the play calling.

ND consistently got "behind" the sticks with Wimbush at QB because he would miss a throw or take a negative play or have a run stuffed. Yesterday, Book kept the offense on schedule by minimizing the number of errant throws and getting small chunks of yards versus a 0 whenever he could. The screen game with Book is also much more dangerous than the disaster it was with Wimbush.

Considering how good the offense looked with Wimbush on scripted plays to start the game and when the play calling wasn't repetitive/predictable I remain fully convinced that one of the primary issues is that Long didn't know how to call the game for Wimbush. Tons of slow developing zone-read with an OL that can't sustain blocks, tons of screen passes to the right side when they know he can't do that, run the ball almost every time on first down, asking him to go through progressions and hold the ball in the pocket forever... it was never, ever going to work. He was not put in the position to be successful, because his skillset is limited.

Long/Kelly clearly know how to call a game for Book. Get the tight ends involved in the middle of the field, spread the defense out and make them press up because Book is A+ at distributing the ball in the screen game then gash them with runs up the middle once they've done that, tons of timing throws where the ball comes out of his hands in 2 seconds. If Book shows the ability to push the ball down the field, this is a 30+ point a game type of offense because you can't defend the run AND the deep pass AND the wide pass all with regularity. It's not going to be an "explosive" offense that has a lot of 3 play 75 yard drives, but it'll be methodical and consistent.

Would be interesting to know just how much of the the 'play book' was used for this game for Book and what is available for upcoming opponents. 10 different receivers says a good bit about Book's field vision.

 

[SouthernIndianaNDFan]

Would be interesting to know just how much of the the 'play book' was used for this game for Book and what is available for upcoming opponents. 10 different receivers says a good bit about Book's field vision.

I legit didn't even know we had 10 different receivers lol, good stuff.

 

[Dizzyphil]

I legit didn't even know we had 10 different receivers lol, good stuff.

Of course, a few went to the backs but, as I re-watched the game this morning, Book went through his progressions/check downs very well - and poised as he did.

 

[ickythump1225]

Considering how good the offense looked with Wimbush on scripted plays to start the game and when the play calling wasn't repetitive/predictable I remain fully convinced that one of the primary issues is that Long didn't know how to call the game for Wimbush. Tons of slow developing zone-read with an OL that can't sustain blocks, tons of screen passes to the right side when they know he can't do that, run the ball almost every time on first down, asking him to go through progressions and hold the ball in the pocket forever... it was never, ever going to work. He was not put in the position to be successful, because his skillset is limited.

Long/Kelly clearly know how to call a game for Book. Get the tight ends involved in the middle of the field, spread the defense out and make them press up because Book is A+ at distributing the ball in the screen game then gash them with runs up the middle once they've done that, tons of timing throws where the ball comes out of his hands in 2 seconds. If Book shows the ability to push the ball down the field, this is a 30+ point a game type of offense because you can't defend the run AND the deep pass AND the wide pass all with regularity. It's not going to be an "explosive" offense that has a lot of 3 play 75 yard drives, but it'll be methodical and consistent.

To defend BK and Long, how do you call a game for a QB that can't hit short, intermediate, or long passes with anything approaching consistently. Seriously every throw Book made yesterday I was like, "yeah BW couldn't make that throw consistently." To further exacerbate the problem BW didn't know how to run the RPO and was consistently making the wrong reads.

How do you craft a whole games worth of planning out of that skill set?

 

[IrishLax]

To defend BK and Long, how do you call a game for a QB that can't hit short, intermediate, or long passes with anything approaching consistently. Seriously every throw Book made yesterday I was like, "yeah BW couldn't make that throw consistently."

To further exacerbate the problem BW didn't know how to run the RPO and was consistently making the wrong reads.

How do you craft a whole games worth of planning out of that skill set?

Rather easily.

McSorley is not a 60%+ passer, he's not faster than Wimbush, and he is not a guy who "distributes" the ball with a bunch of touch passes. Joe Moorhead's offense is what you run... vertical shots, tuck and run, misdirection NOT true "RPO read the defense and the DE" in the backfield.

When stuff was scripted... we're talking pre-determined reads, and if not there he tucks it... he was decisive, on target, and efficient at levels that drastically outpaced the rest of the game. When he was asked to do full field reads, RPOs, zone reads, screen passes to his right, and hand off on slow-developing running plays on every single first down is where it went to shit. Long's offense for Wimbush was possibly the most uncreative and poorly designed scheme I've seen from an OC at Notre Dame since Charley Molnar.

 

[irishtrooper]

Very encouraging performance this week. Once the kinks got worked out, the offense was really humming along. The missing ingredient for this team to be a threat to make the playoffs has been an accurate passer. Sure, there are areas we could be better (RB, OL, etc), but I believe we’ve got all the pieces to make a run. It seemed so obvious watching (after the scripts) that Wimbush couldn’t consistently make decisions in a timely fashion. He has all the tools, but again reminds me of Dayne Crist. I just kept waiting for stuff to “click” but they never did..... Anyway, I am excited for what the rest of the season holds. Get through next week against our toughest remaining test and stay healthy-I like the odds for a playoff push

 

[GowerND11]

Rather easily.

McSorley is not a 60%+ passer, he's not faster than Wimbush, and he is not a guy who "distributes" the ball with a bunch of touch passes. Joe Moorhead's offense is what you run... vertical shots, tuck and run, misdirection NOT true "RPO read the defense and the DE" in the backfield.

When stuff was scripted... we're talking pre-determined reads, and if not there he tucks it... he was decisive, on target, and efficient at levels that drastically outpaced the rest of the game. When he was asked to do full field reads, RPOs, zone reads, screen passes to his right, and hand off on slow-developing running plays on every single first down is where it went to shit. Long's offense for Wimbush was possibly the most uncreative and poorly designed scheme I've seen from an OC at Notre Dame since Charley Molnar.

Absolutely nailed it here. Long's offense was very boring and vanilla for Wimbush. I don't know if it's because he didn't trust Wimbush to do something, or because he was scared of the outcomes, but it was a stagnant offense. That, I fault on Long, not Wimbush. However, Wimbush needs to perform better himself. I think in a Moorhead style offense, or I believe you even said, an RGIII O that Baylor ran it would be successful for Brandon. As it stands, this offense looked very well called yesterday, can it be sustained is the question.

 

[NDRock]

Absolutely nailed it here. Long's offense was very boring and vanilla for Wimbush. I don't know if it's because he didn't trust Wimbush to do something, or because he was scared of the outcomes, but it was a stagnant offense. That, I fault on Long, not Wimbush. However, Wimbush needs to perform better himself. I think in a Moorhead style offense, or I believe you even said, an RGIII O that Baylor ran it would be successful for Brandon. As it stands, this offense looked very well called yesterday, can it be sustained is the question.

I'm just not sure this team has the WRs for a vertical passing game (RGIII had Kendall Wright and Josh Gordon, I believe). Who can consistently get separation downfield? To me, the personnel fits better with what Book does well, as evidenced yesterday. I do think BW could be a very good college QB with the right weapons and right scheme. Just don't think it's this year's ND.

 

[Dizzyphil]

Absolutely nailed it here. Long's offense was very boring and vanilla for Wimbush. I don't know if it's because he didn't trust Wimbush to do something, or because he was scared of the outcomes, but it was a stagnant offense. That, I fault on Long, not Wimbush. However, Wimbush needs to perform better himself. I think in a Moorhead style offense, or I believe you even said, an RGIII O that Baylor ran it would be successful for Brandon. As it stands, this offense looked very well called yesterday, can it be sustained is the question.

He couldn't hit the scrimmage line to 7-8 yard strikes with accuracy... If you go back and look at Long's offense when he was with Memphis, the receivers made Paxton Lynch's stats look awesome due to YAC.



Book = Lynch on those type of throws which is Long's approach to the passing game.

 

[ARALOU]

I started watching the game late. Kickoff of second half to be exact. Even that play showed that the Irish were dominating. The more I watched, the more it showed. Wake was out matched for sure but the execution of the Irish offense was impressive. The timing and flow was different, better.

 

[irishandy]

Postgame (Ian Book) Thoughts:
1. 100% agree with the QB switch for this game.
2. Ian Book ran this offense better and made everyone on the offense better.
3. I like how Ian Book stays patient in the pocket.
4. I think Book does a better job of finding his receivers.
5. Wimbush may be better with his feet, but Book clearly showed that he isn't afraid to run.
6. Jafar Armstrong is quietly putting together a nice season, although when Dex comes back it will be interesting to see how the offense is handled.
7. Give me more of Michael Young, I think he is developing into a #1 WR (yes #1).

Forget the "it" factor or having swagger. I think Book shows more confidence.

I disagree with pumping on the brakes about our offense. This was our first road game, the temperatures were hot, and this was Book's first college start. Kelly has said that both QB's are going to play (historically Kelly likes to use 2 QB's. Clemson & Alabama are doing the same) and right now it is working. I think making this move yesterday with Book starting gives ND options at QB will make it harder for opposing defense coordinators to game plan. Wimbush & Book are 2 different QB's.

Wake may not be a very good defense, but let's give this offense some props. The only question is will it continue to work?

Were 4-0, Go Irish!!

 

[ickythump1225]

Rather easily.

McSorley is not a 60%+ passer, he's not faster than Wimbush, and he is not a guy who "distributes" the ball with a bunch of touch passes. Joe Moorhead's offense is what you run... vertical shots, tuck and run, misdirection NOT true "RPO read the defense and the DE" in the backfield.

When stuff was scripted... we're talking pre-determined reads, and if not there he tucks it... he was decisive, on target, and efficient at levels that drastically outpaced the rest of the game. When he was asked to do full field reads, RPOs, zone reads, screen passes to his right, and hand off on slow-developing running plays on every single first down is where it went to shit. Long's offense for Wimbush was possibly the most uncreative and poorly designed scheme I've seen from an OC at Notre Dame since Charley Molnar.

Who is he throwing it deep to and can he consistently hit those plays?

 

[stlnd01]

I disagree with pumping on the brakes about our offense. This was our first road game, the temperatures were hot, and this was Book's first college start. Kelly has said that both QB's are going to play (historically Kelly likes to use 2 QB's.

A small thing - and, granted, we were winning, which makes everything easier - but it did not appear the heat yesterday bothered us nearly as much as it did Wake Forest, even despite their uptempo offense.
That's good conditioning, smart substitutions and quality depth.

 

[irishandy]

A small thing - and, granted, we were winning, which makes everything easier - but it did not appear the heat yesterday bothered us nearly as much as it did Wake Forest, even despite their uptempo offense.
That's good conditioning, smart substitutions and quality depth.

I agree with you, but just apart of my analyzing.
Definitely good conditioning by ND and I think Kelly commented on that.

It was nice to see that our offense didn't let up yesterday.

 

[BeatSC]

Is it me or does this feel similar to the underachieving Browns with a good D tolerating the investment in Tyros Taylor until he got his bell rung. I think Taylor was coming out soon because of similar issues to Wimbush. Not trying to get carried away but I think Book is closer in style to Baker than McSorley. His performance Saturday would hold up to Bakers numbers. Let’s remember 2 drops on top of it all.

Do we get Dexter back this week? Really hope he has something to prove and explodes thru the hole and gains about 200 yards next week.

Wimbush has an extra year of eligibility so does he get a 5th year at ND and get his masters? He’s not going pro as a QB so why not stay and get a Masters from ND and try out another position. We don’t have Dexter next year and could use another RB.

Question: does a player who starts their masters with one year of eligibility get their second year paid for?

 

[Huntr]

Do we get Dexter back this week?

Yes

 

[Irishize]

I legit didn't even know we had 10 different receivers lol, good stuff.

Don’t be surprised if Boykin ends up getting passed up by Austin or Young. The more reps they get & the more offense they grasp, they could be threats to unseat Claypool & Finke, too. Claypool had a decent game but he’s still not fulfilling his potential. I haven’t re-watched the WF game, but he has quit on a lot of routes in previous games.

 

[Irishize]

Is it me or does this feel similar to the underachieving Browns with a good D tolerating the investment in Tyros Taylor until he got his bell rung. I think Taylor was coming out soon because of similar issues to Wimbush. Not trying to get carried away but I think Book is closer in style to Baker than McSorley. His performance Saturday would hold up to Bakers numbers. Let’s remember 2 drops on top of it all.

Do we get Dexter back this week? Really hope he has something to prove and explodes thru the hole and gains about 200 yards next week.

Wimbush has an extra year of eligibility so does he get a 5th year at ND and get his masters? He’s not going pro as a QB so why not stay and get a Masters from ND and try out another position. We don’t have Dexter next year and could use another RB.

Question: does a player who starts their masters with one year of eligibility get their second year paid for?

The rest of the season will tell the story but Wimbush could have some decisions to make. He was red-shirted in 2016 so playing no more than four games this season doesn’t really do him any favors as his red-shirt has been used...correct?

Most QBs are convinced their QBs. Maybe he excels in another system. Maybe he agree to switch to RB. I think that move would take some transitioning as QBs usually move to WR.

I thought this was an interesting comment from Indy Star writer:

#NotreDame coach Brian Kelly did not commit to Ian Book for rest of season. But in a candid postgame, coach said the entire offseason was spent to get Brandon Wimbush ready to beat Michigan. Which Wimbush did.

 

[Irish YJ]

Don’t be surprised if Boykin ends up getting passed up by Austin or Young. The more reps they get & the more offense they grasp, they could be threats to unseat Claypool & Finke, too. Claypool had a decent game but he’s still not fulfilling his potential. I haven’t re-watched the WF game, but he has quit on a lot of routes in previous games.

There are several true freshman that could emerge soon or by the end of the year. The competition is awesome, and what we need. And Book's willingness to spread it around is tremendous and will allow the coaches to get a look. Something that would have never happened, or happened much slower before the switch. I'd really love to see Lenzy get some shots to blow the top off the D. Our big bodied guys (Claypool and Boykin) will lose more and more reps to younger guys like Austin.

 

[Irish YJ]

The rest of the season will tell the story but Wimbush could have some decisions to make. He was red-shirted in 2016 so playing no more than four games this season doesn’t really do him any favors as his red-shirt has been used...correct?

Most QBs are convinced their QBs. Maybe he excels in another system. Maybe he agree to switch to RB. I think that move would take some transitioning as QBs usually move to WR.

I thought this was an interesting comment from Indy Star writer:

BW could be a great hybrid guy. Give him a shot to both run and catch the ball. Create some packages to have both he and Book behind center. If he could make some noise there, his NFL chances would be much better there, than he'd ever have as a QB.

 

[koonja]

Lax I feel like you're jumping to hard on the BW apologist wagon. I havent seen BW make a read since 'nam.

Book let Chip Long be an offensive coordinator yesterday, rather than an offensive caretaker.

BW has played crap defenses before. He never made it look as surgical as yesterday.

 

[IrishFanJMercy]

I just don’t understand how the coaches could name Wimbush the starter against Michigan after seeing book yesterday?! Was Wimbush that much better in camp or was the coaches giving Wimbush the benefit of the doubt?!

 

[Huntr]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Wake Forest announces defensive coordinator Jay Sawvel has been relieved of his duties.<br>Tom Gilmore, currently a defensive analyst, will be promoted to OLB coach. Other roles to be determined.</p>— Ralph D. Russo (@ralphDrussoAP) <a href="https://twitter.com/ralphDrussoAP/status/1043955115995148288?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 23, 2018</a></blockquote>

 

[AKRowdy]

I just don’t understand how the coaches could name Wimbush the starter against Michigan after seeing book yesterday?! Was Wimbush that much better in camp or was the coaches giving Wimbush the benefit of the doubt?!

NBC has a good article on why they went with BW against scUM. if you don’t wanna read it, it basically said the offense was too immature at the beginning of the season and BW was their best playmaker. Four games into the season, everyone else is starting to mature and the running game is doing better, so the time was right to switch to Book.