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T Town Tommy

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It's still a pretty laughable statement. One could make a case that it's technically true, but Romney wasn't speaking in terms of objective comparisons of geopolitical power. He was arguing that Russia is a serious threat to America and our vital interests. And that's straight up potato.

I think Romney didn't underestimate Putin as Obama did. My complaints about Obama is all this is the fact that he should have held on to the missile defense in Poland and the C Republic. Maybe not put the system in place but let it be known that it was the plan moving forward. He pulled those plans, offered up a psuedo olive branch, and Putin put a big ole smile on his face without giving up anything.

The Reagan approach to Russia was much more successful as he negotiated from a position of power. Obama gave his power away early on and has been on the back side looking in with Russia ever since.
 
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Buster Bluth

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I can and it scares the shit out of me. The Germans developed the first rockets and were already experimenting with radiological devices. Another few years and they could have had a nuclear payload. They did not in the end as they hit stumbling blocks and never pursued it at the end of the War (higher priorities) As a matter of fact American should consider that ex-patriot Germans and Nazi's assisted the US with our own programs and bombs by 1945. The Nazis could have beat us to it if they were not stretched so thin by 1942.

I've always read that their anti-Semitism did them in and that they were never even close to getting "the bomb" as their Jewish scientists came to the US.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Well Hitler's only goal was to systematically kill basically every person east of Germany and replace them with Germans. A Germany from the Rhine to the Volga.

Putin is no Hitler.

And today's Russia is no pre-WWII Germany!

I actually wasn't talking about goals, ideology or any of that. I was talking about the mechanism that either was controlling, that provided resources and the ability to use any force in the first place. The Germans had thoroughly rebuilt a crushed economy, and had everything they needed to be independent and pursue their conquests, except enough raw materials, for accelerated production. The capital was in place.

In Russia, Putin has inherited what the old Soviet empire left behind. Those guys were idiots. They totally depleted the country in terms of its ability to manage its assets and capital and support any kind of conquest. There are plenty of raw materials but Russia has no worthwhile cash or liquid assets, and has to rely upon the international sale of resources or raw materials to raise any kind of capital.

When there tanks go 160 kilometers who are they going to get to pay their gas cards? We saw it in the 70's; the idiots built tens of thousands of tanks. We saw pictures of them rolling off the lines, and being parked in mile after mile of fields. To rust. They didn't have the fuel, or crews to move them further! And this is what we are afraid of, and going to be afraid of again?

What? He said that Russia was our "number 1 geopolitical foe". If you want to make the case that they're, say, #2 or something, then have at it, but the statement itself is far from "laughable". Particularly in light of Syria.

See above. China is it man.

I think Romney didn't underestimate Putin as Obama did. My complaints about Obama is all this is the fact that he should have held on to the missile defense in Poland and the C Republic. Maybe not put the system in place but let it be known that it was the plan moving forward. He pulled those plans, offered up a psuedo olive branch, and Putin put a big ole smile on his face without giving up anything.

The Reagan approach to Russia was much more successful as he negotiated from a position of power. Obama gave his power away early on and has been on the back side looking in with Russia ever since.

The Reagan approach. This is ironic. (Almost as ironic as calling the Soviets, "Russians.") Because the only thing I see that Reagan and his administration did with the Soviets is goad them into a spending war, continued by Bush I. The Soviets spent everything on military production, forsaking their people, their nuclear industry(Chernobyl still glows), any not military industrial investment, farming, etc., and etc. Reagan, sly dog that he was, actually got the Soviets to administer the coup de grâce. They produced billions in weapons that they had to sell an increasing amount of to keep their economy afloat. Then through a number of military engagements around the world, western weapons showed their vast superiority. This was the absolute end.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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I think Romney didn't underestimate Putin as Obama did. My complaints about Obama is all this is the fact that he should have held on to the missile defense in Poland and the C Republic. Maybe not put the system in place but let it be known that it was the plan moving forward. He pulled those plans, offered up a psuedo olive branch, and Putin put a big ole smile on his face without giving up anything.

We did get stuff in return-- shared counter-terrorism intelligence, facilitation of our continued presence in Afghanistan, sanctions against Iran, forbearance from using energy policy as leverage against our European allies during their recent economic weakness, etc.

And those missile defense systems made no more strategic sense than an expansion of NATO would. They served no realistic purpose other than to provoke Russia. None of our allies or interests are being threatened here.

The Reagan approach to Russia was much more successful as he negotiated from a position of power. Obama gave his power away early on and has been on the back side looking in with Russia ever since.

I don't disagree that Obama's incompetent when it comes to foreign policy. We disagree on what he should be doing though. The USSR was a true ideological and military rival, so there's not much of a comparison to modern Russia. And Reagan gets vastly too much credit for an economic collapse inevitably brought about by Soviet mismanagement.
 
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Buster Bluth

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The Reagan approach to Russia was much more successful as he negotiated from a position of power.

"Fuck you Russia, I'll arm the pseudo-Taliban to fight you! That won't come back to haunt the US at all!

Ohhh, you want some of this pain too, Iran? Well my dude Saddam Hussein is going to get a big ol' shipment of American weapons too!

Boom. #Reagan'd!"
 
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Cackalacky

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I've always read that their anti-Semitism did them in and that they were never even close to getting "the bomb" as their Jewish scientists came to the US.
Very true. To what degree either of our points affected it... IDK. I know that they were more focused with non-nuclear payload on their rockets near the end. The Brittish also discovered their rockets and how the Germans were hiding the launch pads so by the end the Germans were having to go to extraordinary lengths to hide them, let alone develop them further. But yeah no doubt there were big intellectual losses for them.

Heisenberg was the man for the Nazis and his history has been washed so i dont know how far he got. I do know they had serious roadblocks and never crossed them. Still though...
 

Irish Houstonian

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"Fuck you Russia, I'll arm the pseudo-Taliban to fight you! That won't come back to haunt the US at all!...#Reagan'd!"

For one, that started under Carter, and was carried out later more by key players like Congressman Charlie Wilson (remember the movie?).

If you're looking for an actual, apples-to-apples comparison, it would be on missle defense. Obama withdrew it, Reagan developed it.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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For one, that started under Carter, and was carried out later more by key players like Congressman Charlie Wilson (remember the movie?).

If you're looking for an actual, apples-to-apples comparison, it would be on missle defense. Obama withdrew it, Reagan developed it.

Funny, that you admit this. Because the support of guerilla's in Afghanistan did start under the Carter Administration. In spite of the president.

But it took the Reagan administration to cut off support without a second thought to the loyalty of thousands who thought they were in partnership with the west and to undermine those we supported to cause widespread death and unnecessary civil war, when we could have spent paltry millions, (compared to what we did to defeat the Soviets), to stabilize the region, and avoid all the terror that has ensued. Where do you think the bad feelings against the US started from? We sold them out in '80 and '91! Our track record is shit with the ones that put their lives on the line!

But we secured our way of life and our oil.

These things and the loss of some Marines I knew in Beirut I still find unforgivable.


But we don't need to go there.
 
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Buster Bluth

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For one, that started under Carter, and was carried out later more by key players like Congressman Charlie Wilson (remember the movie?).

I remember in the movie that US involvement increased exponentially, so the Carter point is moot. Reagan's foreign policy "successes" remind me of the children's book where the lady swallows a spider to get the fly...etc etc etc.


If you're looking for an actual, apples-to-apples comparison, it would be on missle defense. Obama withdrew it, Reagan developed it.

And there is zero evidence that either of those positions were wrong.
 

T Town Tommy

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I remember in the movie that US involvement increased exponentially, so the Carter point is moot. Reagan's foreign policy "successes" remind me of the children's book where the lady swallows a spider to get the fly...etc etc etc.




And there is zero evidence that either of those positions were wrong.

Really Buster?

If Obama would have at a minimum kept the missile defense system on the table, Russia would probably have thought twice about what they are currently doing.

Reagan came in to office at a time when the foreign policy of the US was at an all time low. Carter took one misstep after another, had no real answers for dealing with anyone, and had basically rendered our interests around the world as mute. On a personal level, I liked Carter as he seemed to have morals. Maybe those morals rendered him ineffective in the foreign policy arena, but it was what it was.

When Reagan left office, there was only one super power left in the world. To state that his successes were more like children's books is ridiculous and not a true representation of his foreign policy record.
 

pkt77242

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Really Buster?

If Obama would have at a minimum kept the missile defense system on the table, Russia would probably have thought twice about what they are currently doing.

Reagan came in to office at a time when the foreign policy of the US was at an all time low. Carter took one misstep after another, had no real answers for dealing with anyone, and had basically rendered our interests around the world as mute. On a personal level, I liked Carter as he seemed to have morals. Maybe those morals rendered him ineffective in the foreign policy arena, but it was what it was.

When Reagan left office, there was only one super power left in the world. To state that his successes were more like children's books is ridiculous and not a true representation of his foreign policy record.

Why would the missile defense have stopped him from going into Ukraine? It is a missile defense system not a missile attack system. Every time people bring up this point, it confuses me. Why would it have stopped him? If you are thinking that he wouldn't want it in place and so we could use it as a bargaining tool maybe, but if he wants the Crimea area he was still just going to take it, our little bargaining chip wouldn't have done shit.
 

T Town Tommy

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Why would the missile defense have stopped him from going into Ukraine? It is a missile defense system not a missile attack system. Every time people bring up this point, it confuses me. Why would it have stopped him?

It isn't even important that the defense system would have been put in. But what it would have done is send the message that the US was ready and willing to help Poland and the C. Republic IF Putin had any ideas to land grab. I, for one, would have thought twice about ever putting the system in as it could have been perceived as a provacative act. But I sure would not have taken it off the table as a real option. Sometimes it's not what you do that matters... it's what you say.
 

pkt77242

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It isn't even important that the defense system would have been put in. But what it would have done is send the message that the US was ready and willing to help Poland and the C. Republic IF Putin had any ideas to land grab. I, for one, would have thought twice about ever putting the system in as it could have been perceived as a provacative act. But I sure would not have taken it off the table as a real option. Sometimes it's not what you do that matters... it's what you say.

From my understanding we are putting a different missile defense system into Poland in by 2018. Building the Shield | Defense News | defensenews.com
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Really Buster?

If Obama would have at a minimum kept the missile defense system on the table, Russia would probably have thought twice about what they are currently doing.

Reagan came in to office at a time when the foreign policy of the US was at an all time low. Carter took one misstep after another, had no real answers for dealing with anyone, and had basically rendered our interests around the world as mute. On a personal level, I liked Carter as he seemed to have morals. Maybe those morals rendered him ineffective in the foreign policy arena, but it was what it was.

When Reagan left office, there was only one super power left in the world. To state that his successes were more like children's books is ridiculous and not a true representation of his foreign policy record.

No offense dude. The USSR was done before Carter or Reagan took the office.

Here are my top eleven in terms of World leaders/movements that ended the Soviet way of life :

1. John Paul II (Never in modern times has a religious leader stood up to a government and used moral authority to a better and more devastating end.)
2. George Marshal (The Marshal plan stopped Soviet expansion cold, if the Far east version had not been tabled by partisan political bickering in the US, China may have stayed democratic, Ho Chi minh, would have installed a democracy, and Vietnam probably wouldn't have even happened.)
3. Charlie Wilson. (His vision and effort are legendary.)
4. Various freedom fighters including the Mujahidin in Afghanistan.
5. Nguyễn Ái Quốc, or Ho Chi Minh (The North Vietnamese Constitution written by Minh takes whole portions from the writings of Thomas Jefferson. Minh begged the US for financial support after WWII. Instead, we turned Indo-China back to the French. He represented a huge resource drain to first the Soviets, and then to China, as well as an affront to their authority.)
6. Josip Broz Tito (Another leader communist in name that had much better economic policy and tied the west and the east together. Singlehandedly he stopped Soviet Balkan expansionism and showed the myth of Soviet economic policy.)
7. Mao Tse-tung (The Soviets could never overcome 1 billion Chinese on their doorstep usurping their ideology.)
8. Vladimir Ilyich Lenin (any chances of Marx's teachings working were sabotaged by his shortsighted interpretation of everything he read.)
9. Joseph Stalin (his purges were the end of the ideal, and taught the people that there was no reason to be loyal to the state.)
10. Lech Wałęsa/Solidarity (had his stage been more central, he could have been further up the list.)
11. Our Founding Fathers. (Not revisionist versions. The radical beyond liberals that dreamed up a new system of government and found a way to make it work. It out distanced Soviet communism in every sense.)
 
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Irish Houstonian

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Let's not get ahead of ourselves. The one guy most reponsible for CCCP collapsing was Gorbachev -- he dissolved the party, and it was all down-hill after that. Once he allowed states to leave, they left.

After that, way after that, you have some also-rans like Reagan and Yeltsin.
 

T Town Tommy

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No offense dude. The USSR was done before Carter or Reagan took the office.

Here are my top eleven in terms of World leaders/movements that ended the Soviet way of life :

1. John Paul II (Never in modern times has a religious leader stood up to a government and used moral authority to a better and more devastating end.)
2. George Marshal (The Marshal plan stopped Soviet expansion cold, if the Far east version had not been tabled by partisan political bickering in the US, China may have stayed democratic, Ho Chi minh, would have installed a democracy, and Vietnam probably wouldn't have even happened.)
3. Charlie Wilson. (His vision and effort are legendary.)
4. Various freedom fighters including the Mujahidin in Afghanistan.
5. Nguyễn Ái Quốc, or Ho Chi Minh (The North Vietnamese Constitution written by Minh takes whole portions from the writings of Thomas Jefferson. Minh begged the US for financial support after WWII. Instead, we turned Indo-China back to the French. He represented a huge resource drain to first the Soviets, and then to China, as well as an affront to their authority.)
6. Josip Broz Tito (Another leader communist in name that had much better economic policy and tied the west and the east together. Singlehandedly he stopped Soviet Balkan expansionism and showed the myth of Soviet economic policy.)
7. Mao Tse-tung (The Soviets could never overcome 1 billion Chinese on their doorstep usurping their ideology.)
8. Vladimir Ilyich Lenin (any chances of Marx's teachings working were sabotaged by his shortsighted interpretation of everything he read.)
9. Joseph Stalin (his purges were the end of the ideal, and taught the people that there was no reason to be loyal to the state.)
10. Lech Wałęsa/Solidarity (had his stage been more central, he could have been further up the list.)
11. Our Founding Fathers. (Not revisionist versions. The radical beyond liberals that dreamed up a new system of government and found a way to make it work. It out distanced Soviet communism in every sense.)

And the whole time I thought it was primarily due to their economy being in shambles, coupled with large factions of ethnic unrest due to the diverse regions in the USSR, that led to the 1989 revolutions that in turn allowed Gorbachev to recognize these regions and give them more autonomy. Latvia, Estonia, and Armenia leading the way. Of course, the Caucases and the Baltic States had their struggles at times and fell in to Civil War but all together it led to electoral reform and the eventual downfall of the Union.

Of course this is a simple response to a rather complex situation, but that's a lot of what history recorded as the downfall. Guess someone should fix the record.
 

T Town Tommy

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Let's not get ahead of ourselves. The one guy most reponsible for CCCP collapsing was Gorbachev -- he dissolved the party, and it was all down-hill after that. Once he allowed states to leave, they left.

After that, way after that, you have some also-rans like Reagan and Yeltsin.

Gorby recognized early on that he could not keep up with the US in the Arms race. Guns or butter... they chose butter.
 

ulukinatme

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"Fuck you Russia, I'll arm the pseudo-Taliban to fight you! That won't come back to haunt the US at all!

Ohhh, you want some of this pain too, Iran? Well my dude Saddam Hussein is going to get a big ol' shipment of American weapons too!

Boom. #Reagan'd!"

An unfortunate result, but there was no way anyone could have predicted that Mujaheddin forces would later evolve into a crazy cult known as the Taliban years later. Quite the stab in the back, in retrospect. Nevertheless, even given the fact that the Taliban did more damage on US soil than the Soviet's ever did (Without Reagan's arms mind you), the Soviet Union posed a much greater threat to America than the Taliban ever did or probably ever will. The fact that Reagan's actions and policy helped hasten the demise of the Soviet Union cannot be understated. He supported anti-Communist factions, he introduced the SDI defense initiative, he built up the Army to keep the US safe and keep the Soviet's in check, and he was able to stabilize the economy while he did it. Once the Soviet Union ran out of gas, Reagan saw his opportunity and THEN turned to diplomacy once he was in a position of power...and it worked.
 

notredomer23

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No offense dude. The USSR was done before Carter or Reagan took the office.

Here are my top eleven in terms of World leaders/movements that ended the Soviet way of life :

1. John Paul II (Never in modern times has a religious leader stood up to a government and used moral authority to a better and more devastating end.)
2. George Marshal (The Marshal plan stopped Soviet expansion cold, if the Far east version had not been tabled by partisan political bickering in the US, China may have stayed democratic, Ho Chi minh, would have installed a democracy, and Vietnam probably wouldn't have even happened.)
3. Charlie Wilson. (His vision and effort are legendary.)
4. Various freedom fighters including the Mujahidin in Afghanistan.
5. Nguyễn Ái Quốc, or Ho Chi Minh (The North Vietnamese Constitution written by Minh takes whole portions from the writings of Thomas Jefferson. Minh begged the US for financial support after WWII. Instead, we turned Indo-China back to the French. He represented a huge resource drain to first the Soviets, and then to China, as well as an affront to their authority.)
6. Josip Broz Tito (Another leader communist in name that had much better economic policy and tied the west and the east together. Singlehandedly he stopped Soviet Balkan expansionism and showed the myth of Soviet economic policy.)
7. Mao Tse-tung (The Soviets could never overcome 1 billion Chinese on their doorstep usurping their ideology.)
8. Vladimir Ilyich Lenin (any chances of Marx's teachings working were sabotaged by his shortsighted interpretation of everything he read.)
9. Joseph Stalin (his purges were the end of the ideal, and taught the people that there was no reason to be loyal to the state.)
10. Lech Wałęsa/Solidarity (had his stage been more central, he could have been further up the list.)
11. Our Founding Fathers. (Not revisionist versions. The radical beyond liberals that dreamed up a new system of government and found a way to make it work. It out distanced Soviet communism in every sense.)

So you discount Reagan(or Carter) because the USSR was already done by then, but 2 of your top 3 people credited with the Soviets demise began in 1978 Pope John Paul II and 1979 was the first time Charlie Wilson really had much impact. You can't have it both ways.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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So you discount Reagan(or Carter) because the USSR was already done by then, but 2 of your top 3 people credited with the Soviets demise began in 1978 Pope John Paul II and 1979 was the first time Charlie Wilson really had much impact. You can't have it both ways.

I will address all the history class shortages here :

John Paul as Karol Józef Wojtyła first fought the injustices of the Nazi's in Poland, became a priest, often disguised his identity to exist as a Roman Catholic priest ministering to the people in Poland and moved his resistance and support of labor rights which resulted twenty years later in Solidarity. The man was a one man wrecking crew. He ministered and preached against communism. He moved politically against communism. He wrote articles, often under assumed names decrying communism, and he served as a backbone of the Church in Poland. Every other block country was less successful at keeping its church in tact. John Paul was a big reason for the Polish Churches' successes. He helped create the environment that Lech Wałęsa and Solidarity thrived in decades later.

Of note, some have wondered why I didn't rate Walensa higher. It was because his influence was felt in Poland (mostly) at the end as you pointed out. John Paul after decades of fighting the Soviets was seen and respected by the whole world!

So John Paul II's influence was felt over a thirty plus year period.

Charlie Wilson made the list because he was such a big hammer in exactly the right place at the right time. They were on the way out but he put them down! His influence "blew up earlier in the seventies" and resulted in Israeli, French, German, Swiss, Scandinavian, Egyptian and other countries, their militaries and their financial sectors. The amount of money that was raised and moved without alerting anyone was mind boggling. The fact that multiple countries allowed our forces to examine and tear apart the most up to date Soviet weaponry is a fact lost to history. It was such a good secret, well kept, that people today still aren't aware of it. The US military that trained the Afghan fighters knew the Soviet weapons better than the Soviets did. Can you imagine what the Soviets would have thought if they knew there were Soviet weapon manuals available to their opponents translated into English, and Farsi?

This would have never happened in the Reagan Administration. The war hawk jingoists that controlled his administration were way too arrogant to put together an inclusive program like the one that tore the heart out of the Soviet military. But the way, no one will ever know how many Soviet soldiers were killed in a little over nine years, but it was probably closer to the 900,000 than the 300,000 thrown out as a high guess. To give an idea between 5 and 15 times as many Soviets died as Americans were lost in Viet Nam in over fifteen years. So 15 times the men in 2/3 the time.

In fact, I will stand by the fact that the hatred today in the middle east goes back to American Imperial support (Iran) and the Reagan Bush mishandling of everything in the Middle East, with everything else. From the Kurds to the Afghanis.

Gorby recognized early on that he could not keep up with the US in the Arms race. Guns or butter... they chose butter.

The guns and butter decision was made out of necessity. "Gorby" was not a leader. He was the "last guy." The one that turns off the light and shuts the door.
 
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IrishinTN

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In fact, I will stand by the fact that the hatred today in the middle east goes back to American Imperial support (Iran) and the Reagan Bush mishandling of everything in the Middle East, with everything else. From the Kurds to the Afghanis.

Sorry but this hatred goes way back farther than this.
 
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