Theology

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
My mind is kind of blown. I had never heard of Pascal's wager before...It's actually very logical and hard to argue against. Should be the starting point of any theological discussion.

Pascal's wager is the basis of every religion ever concieved. That, even in making no decision, you are wagering the afterlife is the basis of religion.

It is what has always made me skeptical of religion. It has always been about control. It's always been about a higher authority that demands certain behavior on earth. Religion can be good and it can be bad, but it also has always been the higher authority since the beginning of time. It's a simple concept that can be applied to the masses. Different gods, different messages, but always the same result. Control of the masses through the belief in punishment from a higher power.
 
B

Bogtrotter07

Guest
Pascal's wager is the basis of every religion ever concieved. That, even in making no decision, you are wagering the afterlife is the basis of religion.

It is what has always made me skeptical of religion. It has always been about control. It's always been about a higher authority that demands certain behavior on earth. Religion can be good and it can be bad, but it also has always been the higher authority since the beginning of time. It's a simple concept that can be applied to the masses. Different gods, different messages, but always the same result. Control of the masses through the belief in punishment from a higher power.

Get back on track. We are not talking about mass manipulation by those in control. We are having a camel conversation. Back to the camels . . .
 

Rizzophil

Well-known member
Messages
2,431
Reaction score
579
1). There is a God. He is not angry at humans but loves all humans. He made us in His image.

2). The Bible is true. Most read book ever. It teaches loving God and loving others the way you want to be loved.

3). Jesus is the Son of God. In fact, Jesus is the Bible made flesh. You can't believe in one and not the other.

Jesus took all of the sins of the world and died for them so that we can have eternal life in heaven.

Furthermore, Jesus said that the only way to eternal life is through Him. He is the key. The doctrine that all religions lead to eternal life is totally contrary to the Bible, Jesus, and God
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
Different gods, different messages, but always the same result. Control of the masses through the belief in punishment from a higher power.

Even Eastern religions? E.g. Buddhism and Confucianism?
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
Furthermore, Jesus said that the only way to eternal life is through Him. He is the key. The doctrine that all religions lead to eternal life is totally contrary to the Bible, Jesus, and God

Sucks to be born Aztec, Mayan, Incan, Indian, Eskimo, Aborigine, Chinese, Japanese, Polynesian, Korean, Vietnamese, Mongol, Native American, Sub-Saharan African, etc etc etc etc etc etc and never have a fucking clue that a man named Jesus was around saving them from a Devil and hell that Jews.... don't even.... believe in.
 

gkIrish

Greek God
Messages
13,184
Reaction score
1,004
1). There is a God. He is not angry at humans but loves all humans. He made us in His image.

2). The Bible is true. Most read book ever. It teaches loving God and loving others the way you want to be loved.

3). Jesus is the Son of God. In fact, Jesus is the Bible made flesh. You can't believe in one and not the other.

Jesus took all of the sins of the world and died for them so that we can have eternal life in heaven.

Furthermore, Jesus said that the only way to eternal life is through Him. He is the key. The doctrine that all religions lead to eternal life is totally contrary to the Bible, Jesus, and God

Not trying to pick on you or your beliefs, but are you saying that the Bible is true because it's the most widely read book ever? I hope not...

Moreover, do you know the history behind the creation of the Bible?
 

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
Even Eastern religions? E.g. Buddhism and Confucianism?

Even those...

Buddhism
Naraka (Sanskrit: नरक) or Niraya (Pāli: निरय) is a term in Buddhist cosmology[1] usually referred to in English as "hell", "hell realm", or "purgatory". The Narakas of Buddhism are closely related to diyu, the hell in Chinese mythology. A Naraka differs from the hells of Abrahamic religions in two respects: firstly, beings are not sent to Naraka as the result of a divine judgment and punishment; secondly, the length of a being's stay in a Naraka is not eternal, though it is usually very long.

A being is born into a Naraka as a direct result of his or her accumulated karma and resides there for a finite period of time until that karma has achieved its full result. After his or her karma is used up, he or she will be reborn in one of the higher worlds as the result of karma that had not yet ripened.

Confucianism
When Confucian sources talk about heaven thereafter they do not have n mind anything like a realm of eternal reward for those who die in a state of righteousness. Heaven is merely a name for the highest spiritual presence of which human beings are aware. Confucianism the dilemma of the doctrine of retribution was solved by extending retribution to the individual soul, which continued to live n another form once t had been separated from the body at death. Whereas vertical retribution means the punishment of the son for the sins of the father in the world. The concept of retribution for the soul after death refers to the punishment o the same individual for sins he committed when alive. Though body and soul are separated after death, the soul continues in existence in another form and is punished for sins committed when body and soul were united. According to this concept, it is the non material or spiritual element in man that is fulcrumincuding his actions toward good or evil. Thus in explaining the ways of Heaven to man, Confucianism emphasized the doctrines of vertical and hormonal resposibility, which focus on physical existence of man in this world and on the biological inks between one generation and the next.
 

BabyIrish

Marble Mouth
Messages
2,834
Reaction score
717
Pascal's wager is the basis of every religion ever concieved. That, even in making no decision, you are wagering the afterlife is the basis of religion.

It is what has always made me skeptical of religion. It has always been about control. It's always been about a higher authority that demands certain behavior on earth. Religion can be good and it can be bad, but it also has always been the higher authority since the beginning of time. It's a simple concept that can be applied to the masses. Different gods, different messages, but always the same result. Control of the masses through the belief in punishment from a higher power.

I've never understood the basis of this argument against religion. Every organization in the history of the world has had rules to abide by, both religiou and non religious alike. Every building erected in this country had a code of conduct you have to follow. Every parent has rules for their children, every boss rules for their workers, every school rules for students, every govt rules for it's citizens. Why not the same criticism for everyone else?
 

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
I've never understood the basis of this argument against religion. Every organization in the history of the world has had rules to abide by, both religiou and non religious alike. Every building erected in this country had a code of conduct you have to follow. Every parent has rules for their children, every boss rules for their workers, every school rules for students, every govt rules for it's citizens. Why not the same criticism for everyone else?

You're totally missing the point. My skepticism stems from the fact that the underlying basis for all religions is control of masses. The same principles of mythology are seen in Christianity, etc. But instead of seeing these clear similarities, we cling to "faith" (ie, what we refer to when one believes in something unproveable). That faith can act as a buffer between actual rules of law (ie building codes, boss rules, government law) and those behaviors man alone cannot control. So in turn, since the beginning of time, religion has served that purpose. A premise that the after life or your soul will be judged after death for the things you did on Earth. Rules that no man can overcome and no man can disprove (see Pascal's Wager).

Free will is actually something most peope fear. That's why we invented religion, so we could put reason and rules behind our ability to do so. Think about it, what would the world look like if the majority of people truly believed that everyone's afterlife is the same, or that there was no afterlife? What would crime rates look like? What incentive would people have to help one another? It would be complete and utter chaos.

That's why I believe all societies create religion. To explain to the masses why we must live with eachother and have rules. It's self preservation.
 

dre1919

www.andrewsloan.com
Messages
1,042
Reaction score
70
1. Yes. But, in my humble opinion it is more of an essence, almost Druid like...the power and essence of living nature. A force that is unseen and creation based, less about puffy clouds and people with wings playing golden harps.

2. I think the Bible is an accurate account of inaccurate events. As it's been written, rewritten, edited and omitted by humans who are by nature fallible creatures, the only REAL account and true story of it was the first writing. Past versions after that have all served the purposes of the men putting it out to the masses. Much the same as I feel organized religion is a control device. Early man needed something to keep the masses from destroying themselves completely from the face of the Earth, therefore fear based religion about the unknown (the afterlife) worked quite well.

3. I believe Jesus was a real person, as were all the other proclaimed prophets of God. I do believe he believed he was the Son of God, and perhaps he was. But whether he actually WAS is a matter of what you choose to believe. Me, I am not sure, nor do I think it really matters. To me, the whole belief in Christianity that you worship God...and Jesus...and that they're the same thing (along with the Holy Spirit), yet one is the Father and the other The Son is confusing and doesn't make any logical sense. I'm not sure how a Father and Son can be the same person / entity.

As you can tell, my stance is "A Relationship Not a Religion".
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
I've never understood the basis of this argument against religion. Every organization in the history of the world has had rules to abide by, both religiou and non religious alike. Every building erected in this country had a code of conduct you have to follow. Every parent has rules for their children, every boss rules for their workers, every school rules for students, every govt rules for it's citizens. Why not the same criticism for everyone else?

I have taken a few evolutionary anthropology courses and they provided me with a bunch of interesting studies regarding the role of religion in society and what types of societies (governments) tend to have what type of religions. It addresses many of your posed questions above.

As far as building codes, they vary in different places of the world and are based on hard science, material property science, rectifying past failures, new designs, probability, etc. It has real application at keeping not only people, but capital, and real property safe.
 
Last edited:

dshans

They call me The Dribbler
Messages
9,624
Reaction score
1,181
Get back on track. We are not talking about mass manipulation by those in control. We are having a camel conversation. Back to the camels . . .

Filtered or non-filtered???





I'm just an ordinary Joe ...
 

Emcee77

latress on the men-jay
Messages
7,295
Reaction score
555
I've never understood the basis of this argument against religion. Every organization in the history of the world has had rules to abide by, both religiou and non religious alike. Every building erected in this country had a code of conduct you have to follow. Every parent has rules for their children, every boss rules for their workers, every school rules for students, every govt rules for it's citizens. Why not the same criticism for everyone else?

Well, Marx famously called religion "the opiate of the masses" (or "the opium of the people" ... depends how you translate it and I don't know German). I'm not sure if Wooly was referencing him or not, but I think Marx's point was that religion comforts suffering workers who might otherwise resist capital's insistence on paying them much less than their labor is worth by imparting the belief that their suffering is temporary and will not follow them into the eternal afterlife.

So, from Marx's perspective, a coal miner or other laborer being paid a pittance to do a dangerous job that will make someone else a millionaire would never put up with that state of affairs, except that he's being told every Sunday, bear your suffering secure in the knowledge that "the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will Himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast." 1 Peter 5:10.

Thus, the non-religious sometimes view religion as a cruel instrument of oppression to the extent that it encourages people merely to bear their suffering in this life, with an eye toward the afterlife, rather than fight back against oppression or injustice.
 
Last edited:

Grahambo

Varsity Club Member
Messages
4,259
Reaction score
2,606
My personal two cents:

I am a Christian so I think that kinda sums up those three questions that the OP asked. Now, with that out of the way, I believe this has been a great thread to read. All opinions have been fascinating.

In regards to the Bible, it was put together by men but with the guidance of God, right? Well, men still put it together so whether its the actual book that God would have liked down here for us, hard to say but I believe it is. I also don't think the Bible was meant for everybody to actually understand completely and I do believe there is a great deal left untold, still hidden from us. Why that is? I don't know. Maybe its too much for people to handle. Maybe we were meant to know a precise amount of information and nothing more. I also think people may take some things in the Bible too literal.

I also don't believe that going to Heaven or to Hell after death is as clear as black and white or as some churches have made it out to be. I have a hard time believing somebody who has led a good life and done their very best can end up in the same place as Hitler. Only God knows what's truly in your heart so I think its a little more in depth then what some churches lead you to believe.

I could go on and on but I'll stop here. Good info being passed around in here fellas.
 

dshans

They call me The Dribbler
Messages
9,624
Reaction score
1,181
Just look up and watch a few George Carlin routines on YouTube.
 

IrishJayhawk

Rock Chalk
Messages
7,181
Reaction score
464
Not exactly on-topic, but isn't that the exact argument given in support of gay marriage?

Not for me. It was actually the opposite...i.e., even though the majority opposes it, there's a civil right that is being infringed upon. At this point, the majority appears to have come to the other side..
 

IrishMoore1

Well-known member
Messages
1,146
Reaction score
181
I've only read through the first 10 or so pages, but I'm really enjoying the content and ideas you guys are putting out. One response that stood out to me was from IrishLax:

1. IMO, I can't envision a scenario where there isn't some sort of supernatural force in the universe. I only have a rudimentary grasp of physics from my engineering background, but simply put there are a lot of things that physics comes close to explaining how they function but is so far away from explaining why they function how they do that I believe the inexplicable and imperceptible strongly implies the existence of the supernatural.

It seems to me his reasoning extends from the God of the Gaps argument. That what we don't know or understand, can only be explained by a supernatural force or God. We don't know; therefore, God did it. I've seen many people on this thread put forth some form of this reasoning.

To me this argument falls through because there are many things we didn't understand just 20 years ago, that people deferred to God as the explanation. Now, we do understand those things that were previously unexplained, and God's role has precariously receded. Essentially, the gaps that God fills get closed as we understand more about the universe. God's role as the explanation is getting smaller and smaller, and could potentially be removed altogether if one continues to believe in the God of the Gaps argument.

This isn't a knock on everyone here who espouses this reasoning. The greatest scientists and thinkers in history also succumbed to the God of the Gaps. Isaac Newton, probably the smartest person to ever live, discovered the laws of physics and invented Calculus to prove his ideas by the age of 26. But when he reached the limit of his ideas and couldn't explain what was beyond them, he also deferred to a higher entity or supernatural force.

However, years later other scientists built extensions off his ideas in physics and found the solution to things that Newton could not. Now, suddenly those things were no longer explained by God, they were explained by logical, natural law.

Astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson gives a wonderful lecture called "the perimeter of ignorance" on this topic if you are interested to understand more (especially for those of you in the sciences):

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/N7rR8stuQfk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

As for the 3 questions:
1. I used to be Christian but now I'm not sure. I'm inclined to think no because I haven't really seen evidence that a God exists. As I became more educated, reasons I had previously for believing in God didn't make sense anymore, and I get this unsettling feeling that religion is there to control me.

2. No, the Bible is certainly not reliable historically. The numerous authors, conflicting timelines, and stories that conflict with what we know is plausible in the real world make this clear. If one literally believed in the timeline of the Bible, the earth would only be 6,000 years old, which is empirically false. Even the Catholic Church acknowledges this and states that the Bible is not meant to be believed in via historical context.

For example, a Catholic priest would tell you that it's not important to believe that there was an Adam and Eve as the first two people ever. It's more important to glean the teaching that God created man, and that the story of Adam and Eve tells us that Sin came from man, not God. The other details of the story need not be believed as literally true.

3. See #1.
 
Last edited:
B

Bogtrotter07

Guest
1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Jesus Christ is God the son, who became man for us. Apart of the Holy Trinty.

Did you mean "A part?" Other interpretations would be mind boggling.

Buster, I have a friend that went to high school with George Carlin. He only made it two years. He was really funny then too, though!

Notable alumni[edit]
Regis Philbin, American television personality
Martin Scorsese, American filmmaker
Mario Runco, Jr., U.S. astronaut and former NASA mission specialist
Jamal Mashburn, NBA player for the Dallas Mavericks, Miami Heat, and New Orleans Hornets
Bobby Sanabria, American (Latin Jazz) drummer, percussionist, composer, arranger, educator
Willie Colon, NFL player for the New York Jets
George Dzundza, American television and film actor
George Pérez, Illustrator and writer of comic books
Bernard McGuirk, Executive producer of the Imus in the Morning radio and television program
Don DeLillo, American author and playwright
John Sweeney, President AFL-CIO 1995-2009 and recipient of the 2010 Presidential Medal of Freedom
George Carlin, American stand-up comedian (did not graduate)

Funny how they claim him now. My friend and George were two years behind Regis, and my friend graduated from ND two years behind Regis as well.

References[edit]


Filtered or non-filtered???





I'm just an ordinary Joe ...

With toes.
 
Last edited:

dshans

They call me The Dribbler
Messages
9,624
Reaction score
1,181
Thank you, IrishMoore1. I love Neil deGrasse Tyson. Watching his presentation was time well spent.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
It seems to me his reasoning extends from the God of the Gaps argument. That what we don't know or understand, can only be explained by a supernatural force or God. We don't know; therefore, God did it. I've seen many people on this thread put forth some form of this reasoning.

I can't speak for LAX, but I don't believe he was making a "God of the Gaps" argument. I assume he was referring to propositions like the Fine-Tuned Universe.

And it doesn't make one anti-intellectual to posit that while "science" is awfully good as describing the Universe (i.e. answering "How?" questions), empiricism is fundamentally incapable of answering "Why?" questions. Secular materialists who insist on stretching empirical science into realms of inquiry where it simply has no place are guilty of scientism.
 
Last edited:

greyhammer90

the drunk piano player
Messages
16,821
Reaction score
16,083
Thank you, IrishMoore1. I love Neil deGrasse Tyson. Watching his presentation was time well spent.

I'm so pumped for his version of Cosmos.

I watched Carl's original when I was 12 and it was a religious experience for me. Totally changed the way I saw myself and my place in the world.
 

greyhammer90

the drunk piano player
Messages
16,821
Reaction score
16,083
I can't speak for LAX, but I don't believe he was making a "God of the Gaps" argument. I assume he was referring to propositions like the Fine-Tuned Universe.

And it doesn't make one anti-intellectual to posit that while "science" is awfully good as describing the Universe (i.e. answering "How?" questions), empiricism is fundamentally incapable of answering "Why?" questions. Secular materialists who insist on stretching empirical science into realms of inquiry where it simply has no place are guilty of scientism.

Could you give me an example of a question that is a "why" question that is not also a "how" question? Not being flippant, genuinely trying to understand.
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
"Why" indicates purpose or intent. "How" is just consequential and deterministic. Its what separates us from the animals.

Agent Smith: Why, Mr. Anderson? Why do you do it? Why get up? Why keep fighting? Do you believe you're fighting for something? For more than your survival? Can you tell me what it is? Do you even know? Is it freedom? Or truth? Perhaps peace? Yes? No? Could it be for love? Illusions, Mr. Anderson. Vagaries of perception. The temporary constructs of a feeble human intellect trying desperately to justify an existence that is without meaning or purpose. And all of them as artificial as the Matrix itself, although only a human mind could invent something as insipid as love. You must be able to see it, Mr. Anderson. You must know it by now. You can't win. It's pointless to keep fighting. Why, Mr. Anderson? Why? Why do you persist?
Neo: Because I choose to.
 
Last edited:
Top