The Priesthood & Celibacy

BGIF

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Celibacy and primogeniture made The Church the largest landowner in European history.
 
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Buster Bluth

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Good. Sexual repression isn't doing the church any favors.
 

wizards8507

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Vatican: Celibacy in Catholic Church open for discussion

I thought this was interesting and might provoke some informative and lively discussion on restrictions on the Catholic presthood in general.

That article cites the National Catholic Reporter, which is notorious for attacks on the Church and promoting a secular progressive agenda. People around here might remember them for the hatchet job they did on ND in the Seeberg case.
 

IrishJayhawk

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That article cites the National Catholic Reporter, which is notorious for attacks on the Church and promoting a secular progressive agenda. People around here might remember them for the hatchet job they did on ND in the Seeberg case.

Regardless of who they cite, the secretary of state's comments may represent a shift. They didn't make them up.
 

Rack Em

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That article cites the National Catholic Reporter, which is notorious for attacks on the Church and promoting a secular progressive agenda. People around here might remember them for the hatchet job they did on ND in the Seeberg case.

BINGO!

Also, the Sec. of State is only saying that CELIBACY IN THE CHURCH ISN'T DOGMA. He made a statement and the media took it to it's final conclusion.

Church Dogma = can never change and is infallible
Church Doctrine = can change

In reality, he's not saying anything of substance. It's the equivalent of saying "because Notre Dame has a policy of admitting 2,000 incoming freshmen each year, it might change."
 

Rack Em

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Regardless of who they cite, the secretary of state's comments may represent a shift. They didn't make them up.

I strongly disagree. The only thing he said is that it's open to discussion because it's not set in stone (ie Dogma).

Dogma can't be touch - everything else can. He just phrased it poorly, IMO.
 

IrishJayhawk

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I strongly disagree. The only thing he said is that it's open to discussion because it's not set in stone (ie Dogma).

Dogma can't be touch - everything else can. He just phrased it poorly, IMO.

I think that even entertaining the conversation is a change.
 

IrishJayhawk

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EDIT: My mistake.

I was thinking about his comments on women becoming priests.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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Good. Sexual repression isn't doing the church any favors.

It's understandable how you might think that, given our culture and how the media portrays the Church, but you'd be wrong. Virtually every Christian denomination that has "liberalized" its teachings on sexuality has been in catastrophic decline for decades. From the NYTimes' Ross Douthat:

IN 1998, John Shelby Spong, then the reliably controversial Episcopal bishop of Newark, published a book entitled “Why Christianity Must Change or Die.” Spong was a uniquely radical figure — during his career, he dismissed almost every element of traditional Christian faith as so much superstition — but most recent leaders of the Episcopal Church have shared his premise. Thus their church has spent the last several decades changing and then changing some more, from a sedate pillar of the WASP establishment into one of the most self-consciously progressive Christian bodies in the United States.

As a result, today the Episcopal Church looks roughly how Roman Catholicism would look if Pope Benedict XVI suddenly adopted every reform ever urged on the Vatican by liberal pundits and theologians. It still has priests and bishops, altars and stained-glass windows. But it is flexible to the point of indifference on dogma, friendly to sexual liberation in almost every form, willing to blend Christianity with other faiths, and eager to downplay theology entirely in favor of secular political causes.

Yet instead of attracting a younger, more open-minded demographic with these changes, the Episcopal Church’s dying has proceeded apace. Last week, while the church’s House of Bishops was approving a rite to bless same-sex unions, Episcopalian church attendance figures for 2000-10 circulated in the religion blogosphere. They showed something between a decline and a collapse: In the last decade, average Sunday attendance dropped 23 percent, and not a single Episcopal diocese in the country saw churchgoing increase.

This decline is the latest chapter in a story dating to the 1960s. The trends unleashed in that era — not only the sexual revolution, but also consumerism and materialism, multiculturalism and relativism — threw all of American Christianity into crisis, and ushered in decades of debate over how to keep the nation’s churches relevant and vital.

Traditional believers, both Protestant and Catholic, have not necessarily thrived in this environment. The most successful Christian bodies have often been politically conservative but theologically shallow, preaching a gospel of health and wealth rather than the full New Testament message.

But if conservative Christianity has often been compromised, liberal Christianity has simply collapsed. Practically every denomination — Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian — that has tried to adapt itself to contemporary liberal values has seen an Episcopal-style plunge in church attendance. Within the Catholic Church, too, the most progressive-minded religious orders have often failed to generate the vocations necessary to sustain themselves.

By giving up "sexual repression", the Church would be doing itself the same kind of "favor" that Dr. Kevorkian provided to his patients.
 
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Emcee77

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It's understandable how you might think that, given our culture and how the media portrays the Church, but you'd be wrong. Virtually ever Christian denomination that has "liberalized" its teachings on sexuality has been in catastrophic decline for decades. From the NYTimes' Ross Douthat:



By giving up "sexual repression", the Church would be doing itself the same kind of favor that Dr. Kevorkian provided to his patients.

I don't follow. Whatever Douthat's point might be, he's not acknowledging that in the 21st century we know how psychologically damaging sexual repression can be. Doing away with clerical celibacy might result in a happier, healthier clergy.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I don't follow. Whatever Douthat's point might be, he's not acknowledging that in the 21st century we know how psychologically damaging sexual repression can be. Doing away with clerical celibacy might result in a happier, healthier clergy.

I wasn't addressing clerical celibacy specifically, and as RackEm has mentioned, it's merely dogma that can be changed at any point. I'm not particularly married (ha?) to the policy.

Based on his prior posts on this subject, I took Buster's mention of "sexual repression" to refer to the Church's doctrine on human sexuality generally. Thus, my post about how abandoning such would likely lead to rapid decline.
 
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wizards8507

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I strongly disagree. The only thing he said is that it's open to discussion because it's not set in stone (ie Dogma).

Dogma can't be touch - everything else can. He just phrased it poorly, IMO.

I think that even entertaining the conversation is a change.

Are they actually entertaining the conversation or is there a possibility of entertaining the conversation?

Those two are vastly different.

Agreed. If you actually read what he said, it's kind of a jumbled mess and the headline is wildly misleading. Poor phrasing and (I assume) imprecise translation into English are the "story" here.
 

BobD

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Personally I believe allowing priests to marry would be awesome.
 

BabyIrish

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Personally I believe allowing priests to marry would be awesome.

I don't see how this could happen. Priests work 6 days a week anywhere from 100-120 hour work weeks and they don't make anywhere near enough money to support a family. The Priests when ordained promise to serve God's people, but if they were to marry they would promise to give themselves to their family, which would create so much tension between the Priest's family and his parish. One of the groups would suffer for it.

For Priests to marry, each parish must be willing to: 1. give more money to support a family, or allow Priests to get second jobs- which would limit the Priests availability to his parish 2. Be willing for the Priest to make his family a priority, which would also limit the Priests availability to the parish and its people.

As of right now, it's just not feasible to allow Priests to marry. IMO it would greatly affect the life of Catholics in a negative manner.
 

NDohio

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I don't see how this could happen. Priests work 6 days a week anywhere from 100-120 hour work weeks and they don't make anywhere near enough money to support a family. The Priests when ordained promise to serve God's people, but if they were to marry they would promise to give themselves to their family, which would create so much tension between the Priest's family and his parish. One of the groups would suffer for it.

For Priests to marry, each parish must be willing to: 1. give more money to support a family, or allow Priests to get second jobs- which would limit the Priests availability to his parish 2. Be willing for the Priest to make his family a priority, which would also limit the Priests availability to the parish and its people.

As of right now, it's just not feasible to allow Priests to marry. IMO it would greatly affect the life of Catholics in a negative manner.

How, in your opinion, is the Catholic Church different from other denominations in this? The leaders of other churches are able to balance church leadership and family life.
 

gkIrish

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I don't see how this could happen. Priests work 6 days a week anywhere from 100-120 hour work weeks and they don't make anywhere near enough money to support a family. The Priests when ordained promise to serve God's people, but if they were to marry they would promise to give themselves to their family, which would create so much tension between the Priest's family and his parish. One of the groups would suffer for it.

For Priests to marry, each parish must be willing to: 1. give more money to support a family, or allow Priests to get second jobs- which would limit the Priests availability to his parish 2. Be willing for the Priest to make his family a priority, which would also limit the Priests availability to the parish and its people.

As of right now, it's just not feasible to allow Priests to marry. IMO it would greatly affect the life of Catholics in a negative manner.

1. Do you honestly believe the bolded portion is a real issue? As NDohio posited, how is the Catholic Church different from other denominations?

2. What would prevent the priest's potential wife from holding her own job to help support the family?
 

Rack Em

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How, in your opinion, is the Catholic Church different from other denominations in this? The leaders of other churches are able to balance church leadership and family life.

They don't have nearly the responsibility.

This doesn't go for all priests, but how many other churches have a K-6 or K-8 school associated to them? Practically none. That's a HUGE responsibility placed on a pastor.

How many services do other denominations have on a weekend? 1 maybe 2. Again not every priest has to perform between 3-6 Masses a weekend, but nearly all of them have at least 2 and many of them have to travel. And Catholic Mass on Sunday mornings often starts at 7am or 8am which means any Saturday night plan are out the door.

When a parishioner is in the hospital and wants to receive the Anointing of the Sick? The local priest goes. Doesn't matter when it is. No other denomination has that Sacrament to perform.

I'll be the first to admit that priests often complain about how much work they have (considering they don't balance a family). But if they had families, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that everything would get done.

I would go as far as to say it would be hypocritical of the Church to allow priests to marry. If it did, either the family or the Church would suffer. Neither of those is an acceptable option in light of the commitment the Church asks husbands to make to their wives and children and the commitment asked of seminarians when entering the priesthood.
 

RDU Irish

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You mean priests don't just work on Saturday night and Sunday morning?

I think they need to do something to address the priest shortage and allowing them to marry would be a big deal IMO. I also think it would help them relate to their congregation and increase credibility in sexuality discussions. Who never rolled their eyes at a (supposedly) celibate priest preaching for abstinence and against birth control?
 

pkt77242

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I don't see how this could happen. Priests work 6 days a week anywhere from 100-120 hour work weeks and they don't make anywhere near enough money to support a family. The Priests when ordained promise to serve God's people, but if they were to marry they would promise to give themselves to their family, which would create so much tension between the Priest's family and his parish. One of the groups would suffer for it.

For Priests to marry, each parish must be willing to: 1. give more money to support a family, or allow Priests to get second jobs- which would limit the Priests availability to his parish 2. Be willing for the Priest to make his family a priority, which would also limit the Priests availability to the parish and its people.

As of right now, it's just not feasible to allow Priests to marry. IMO it would greatly affect the life of Catholics in a negative manner.

I doubt priests work that many hours though they do work a lot. Also by allowing priests to marry, you would likely have an increase in priests which would mean that priests would have to work less hours. At least that is how I believe it would work.
 

Rack Em

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1. Do you honestly believe the bolded portion is a real issue? As NDohio posited, how is the Catholic Church different from other denominations?

Yes. It's not an "either or" in the Church. You're committed to one or the other. My response above explains why.

2. What would prevent the priest's potential wife from holding her own job to help support the family?

It's not her job to hold the family together. It's not her job to raise the children. It's not her job to cook, clean, balance finances, pay the mortgage on time, cut the grass, etc. all on her own.

Marriage and child rearing is an equal partnership and if one party neglects the home, it's a recipe for disaster.
 

RDU Irish

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So Rack'em - you don't see celibacy holding back calls to the priesthood? I never even considered it growing up because I knew THAT wasn't for me.
 

Rack Em

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You mean priests don't just work on Saturday night and Sunday morning?

I think they need to do something to address the priest shortage and allowing them to marry would be a big deal IMO. I also think it would help them relate to their congregation and increase credibility in sexuality discussions. Who never rolled their eyes at a (supposedly) celibate priest preaching for abstinence and against birth control?

There's no priest shortage - there's a commitment shortage in the pews. If attendance were up, vocations would likely be up.

Not everything revolves around sex inside the doors of the Vatican. There are other issues.

I don't know whether you're Catholic, RDU but I take a lot of offense to the bolded comment. Usually you and I see eye-to-eye, but that's insulting.
 

gkIrish

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They don't have nearly the responsibility.

This doesn't go for all priests, but how many other churches have a K-6 or K-8 school associated to them? Practically none. That's a HUGE responsibility placed on a pastor.

How many services do other denominations have on a weekend? 1 maybe 2. Again not every priest has to perform between 3-6 Masses a weekend, but nearly all of them have at least 2 and many of them have to travel. And Catholic Mass on Sunday mornings often starts at 7am or 8am which means any Saturday night plan are out the door.

When a parishioner is in the hospital and wants to receive the Anointing of the Sick? The local priest goes. Doesn't matter when it is. No other denomination has that Sacrament to perform.

I'll be the first to admit that priests often complain about how much work they have (considering they don't balance a family). But if they had families, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that everything would get done.

I would go as far as to say it would be hypocritical of the Church to allow priests to marry. If it did, either the family or the Church would suffer. Neither of those is an acceptable option in light of the commitment the Church asks husbands to make to their wives and children and the commitment asked of seminarians when entering the priesthood.

I'm Orthodox so I'll speak to what an Orthodox priest's schedule is like. Mass every single day for 2 hours in the morning. All of the same responsibilities a Catholic priest has that relate to funerals, sicknesses, exorcisms (yes, that happens), weddings, baptisms and all other types of stuff. Most of the Orthodox priests I know are happily married with multiple kids.

You also have to realize that the wife will presumably be entering the marriage freely so she knows what she is getting into!
 

gkIrish

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It's not her job to hold the family together. It's not her job to raise the children. It's not her job to cook, clean, balance finances, pay the mortgage on time, cut the grass, etc. all on her own.

Marriage and child rearing is an equal partnership and if one party neglects the home, it's a recipe for disaster.

I agree that it's an equal opportunity partnership. I simply disagree with the premise that a priest can't do both, especially with the support of his wife.
 

Rack Em

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So Rack'em - you don't see celibacy holding back calls to the priesthood? I never even considered it growing up because I knew THAT wasn't for me.

Not at all. Could vocations increase if celibacy were dropped? Maybe.

But what kind of person would decide to join the priesthood just because that's dropped? Someone who's not very committed to the Call in the first place. What kind of representation of Christ will that person be if his vocation so loosely hinges on celibacy.

I've grown up around priests my entire life. My uncle went the seminary (dropped out) one of my cousins went to a high school seminary for a year before it closed and now another of my cousins is in the seminary. Hell, I would have gone to that high school seminary had it been open. My parents are friends with (seemingly) half the priests in the diocese. And many of those priests I would call friends.

This isn't a commitment to be taken lightly. One really has to be "all in". But dropping celibacy puts the Church at risk of less committed men joining the priesthood.
 

RDU Irish

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You think priests are getting a little too close to some of the ladies? Temptation is there for many of them and you can't tell me they never take anyone up on it.

My uncle left the priesthood to marry my aunt, who happened to be a nun, many moons ago. That hanky panky is human nature and those who pretend priests are above temptation are the same ones who are most disappointed when their human sin comes to the forefront.
 

IrishJayhawk

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So Rack'em - you don't see celibacy holding back calls to the priesthood? I never even considered it growing up because I knew THAT wasn't for me.

My father left the seminary (after studying in Rome during Vatican II) because he wanted to have a family.
 
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