The Priesthood & Celibacy

gkIrish

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Another point---Wouldn't it be beneficial in many ways for a priest to be married in the sense that he can better appreciate the relationship a man has with his wife? In other words, wouldn't a homily about love and marriage have more meaning coming from a person who has experienced it himself?
 

Rack Em

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I'm Orthodox so I'll speak to what an Orthodox priest's schedule is like. Mass every single day for 2 hours in the morning. All of the same responsibilities a Catholic priest has that relate to funerals, sicknesses, exorcisms (yes, that happens), weddings, baptisms and all other types of stuff. Most of the Orthodox priests I know are happily married with multiple kids.

You also have to realize that the wife will presumably be entering the marriage freely so she knows what she is getting into!

Again, no schools to worry about.

No travel to and from parishes (some priests travel good distances to their parishes because they are assigned to multiple).

Do they have to attend finance committee meetings, school board meetings, long-range planning meetings, liturgy committee meetings, perform additional Sacraments, marriage preparation?

I could go on. Look, I know many priests that have time on their hands. I also know many that are busier than a one-legged man in a butt kicking contest. It all depends on where they are and what their assignment is. In the end, all of the work needs to be done and it would stretch many priests too thin to balance the Church and a full family.
 

IrishJayhawk

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But dropping celibacy puts the Church at risk of less committed men joining the priesthood.

I certainly respect your experiences. I, too, have many priest friends.

I just don't understand the"less committed" part of your argument.
 

Rack Em

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You think priests are getting a little too close to some of the ladies? Temptation is there for many of them and you can't tell me they never take anyone up on it.

My uncle left the priesthood to marry my aunt, who happened to be a nun, many moons ago. That hanky panky is human nature and those who pretend priests are above temptation are the same ones who are most disappointed when their human sin comes to the forefront.

Never once said that. Never would I deny that.

But my point is that the Church shouldn't just give in.
 

IrishJayhawk

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I also know many that are busier than a one-legged man in a butt kicking contest. It all depends on where they are and what their assignment is. In the end, all of the work needs to be done and it would stretch many priests too thin to balance the Church and a full family.

Regardless of any disagreements, that's just funny right there.
 

Rack Em

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I certainly respect your experiences. I, too, have many priest friends.

I just don't understand the"less committed" part of your argument.

Less committed = "Oh now that I can get married and have sex, I'll be a priest."

That's not very committed to the vocation. This isn't a career, it's a vocation.
 

gkIrish

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Again, no schools to worry about.

No travel to and from parishes (some priests travel good distances to their parishes because they are assigned to multiple).

Do they have to attend finance committee meetings, school board meetings, long-range planning meetings, liturgy committee meetings, perform additional Sacraments, marriage preparation?

I could go on. Look, I know many priests that have time on their hands. I also know many that are busier than a one-legged man in a butt kicking contest. It all depends on where they are and what their assignment is. In the end, all of the work needs to be done and it would stretch many priests too thin to balance the Church and a full family.

Some Orthodox priests also run schools. For example, St. Basil's Academy in New York. I went to Notre Dame and was pretty close with my rector. I also dated a Catholic girl for 5 years and went with her to all kinds of religious events. I'm familiar with the responsibilities of a Catholic priest and I think you are overstating the time commitment as compared to other denominations. Not tryng to argue with you so agree to disagree on this point.
 

IrishJayhawk

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Less committed = "Oh now that I can get married and have sex, I'll be a priest."

That's not very committed to the vocation. This isn't a career, it's a vocation.

I don't think it's a decision about having sex. It's one of wanting to have a family. I tend to think a person can be called to a vocation and to raise a family.
 

NDohio

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They don't have nearly the responsibility.

This doesn't go for all priests, but how many other churches have a K-6 or K-8 school associated to them? Practically none. That's a HUGE responsibility placed on a pastor.

My wife went to a Catholic school. Her principal was a Preist but didn't have a full time Parish to be responsible for. I assumed this is the way it is at most Catholic schools. This is new info to me.

How many services do other denominations have on a weekend? 1 maybe 2. Again not every priest has to perform between 3-6 Masses a weekend, but nearly all of them have at least 2 and many of them have to travel. And Catholic Mass on Sunday mornings often starts at 7am or 8am which means any Saturday night plan are out the door.

My dad is a retired United Methodist Preacher. He always had two churches that were under his responsibility(At one point, one church was in OH and the other was in IN - what a nightmare when dealing with the time change). It was typically one larger congregation and one smaller one. The larger of the two churches would have two services while the smaller would have only one. Our Saturday nights were spent watching football and folding all the bulletins for the next day's services.

The church I currently attend has three services on Sunday morning. The staff is one full time Pastor and a part time retired Pastor.

When a parishioner is in the hospital and wants to receive the Anointing of the Sick? The local priest goes. Doesn't matter when it is. No other denomination has that Sacrament to perform.

Not completely true. It may not be the exact same sacrement, but my dad always had his healing oil with him ready to head to the hospital if that phone call came in.

I'll be the first to admit that priests often complain about how much work they have (considering they don't balance a family). But if they had families, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that everything would get done.

Maybe the Church Body may have to step up a little and take on more responsibility?

I would go as far as to say it would be hypocritical of the Church to allow priests to marry. If it did, either the family or the Church would suffer. Neither of those is an acceptable option in light of the commitment the Church asks husbands to make to their wives and children and the commitment asked of seminarians when entering the priesthood.

I think it is a real shame that there are wonderful, Godly men that may have become Preists if this requirement were not a part of the Church. Catholicism is missing out on some very gifted leaders as a result.
 

RDU Irish

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My view is there is a lot more politics involved in church doctrine than most will admit. Therefore, "giving in" is right and humble if your stance is unsubstantiated. Not aware of the scripture requiring celibacy, then again haven't really gone looking for it.

Differentiation between Dogma and Doctrine is important.
 

RDU Irish

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Our PTO president attends many of those same meetings while raising a family of five and working as a regional sales manager traveling pretty much every week to half of the United States. Then again, his wife probably doesn't want him at home any more than he is anyway.

Plenty of folks have just as demanding schedules, especially as corporate downsizing has them doing jobs previously done by two or three people. Now if you increase your staffing, doesn't your work load decrease? Thus the need for more priests.
 

Rack Em

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My wife went to a Catholic school. Her principal was a Preist but didn't have a full time Parish to be responsible for. I assumed this is the way it is at most Catholic schools. This is new info to me.

Typically this is the way it is.

My dad is a retired United Methodist Preacher. He always had two churches that were under his responsibility(At one point, one church was in OH and the other was in IN - what a nightmare when dealing with the time change). It was typically one larger congregation and one smaller one. The larger of the two churches would have two services while the smaller would have only one. Our Saturday nights were spent watching football and folding all the bulletins for the next day's services.

The church I currently attend has three services on Sunday morning. The staff is one full time Pastor and a part time retired Pastor.

Fair. But there is still more than just services. You acknowledge this later.

Not completely true. It may not be the exact same sacrement, but my dad always had his healing oil with him ready to head to the hospital if that phone call came in.



Maybe the Church Body may have to step up a little and take on more responsibility?

Maybe yes and maybe no. I don't know enough about Canon Law but it definitely places certain roles on priests in the parish. And even associates (who don't have these roles) SHOULD be stepping up to be leaders and be in on what's going on in their parish.

I think it is a real shame that there are wonderful, Godly men that may have become Preists if this requirement were not a part of the Church. Catholicism is missing out on some very gifted leaders as a result.

That's why there is a Deaconate. They can baptize, participate in the liturgy, are leaders, etc. but have the option of a family. It's not the same, but if they are active and engaged it can be a close second, IMO.

Perhaps the divide here is over what I think priests should be doing and how involved they should be vs. how engaged some of them actually are. I guess my fear is that if a family comes in to play, the engagement level will be lower than what it currently is among priests. Does that make sense?
 

NDohio

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Perhaps the divide here is over what I think priests should be doing and how involved they should be vs. how engaged some of them actually are. I guess my fear is that if a family comes in to play, the engagement level will be lower than what it currently is among priests. Does that make sense?

That's fair. And I will tell you that as a kid I didn't always appreciate the dedication my father had to his congregation. I greatly appreciate it now as an adult. But your point is very valid. Of course that dedication level happens in all denominations - you are always going to have dedicated Priests/Ministers and not so dedicated Priests/Ministers.

It's a good discussion that I think the Catholic Church should have.......
 

pkt77242

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Perhaps the divide here is over what I think priests should be doing and how involved they should be vs. how engaged some of them actually are. I guess my fear is that if a family comes in to play, the engagement level will be lower than what it currently is among priests. Does that make sense?

That does make sense. The Church would have to do a great job of screening candidates to make sure that they are extremely committed to the church.
 

IrishJayhawk

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That's fair. And I will tell you that as a kid I didn't always appreciate the dedication my father had to his congregation. I greatly appreciate it now as an adult. But your point is very valid. Of course that dedication level happens in all denominations - you are always going to have dedicated Priests/Ministers and not so dedicated Priests/Ministers.

It's a good discussion that I think the Catholic Church should have.......

^This
 

BabyIrish

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Very good discussion:
In terms of Priestly work comparing to other pastors work:
I don't know pastors duties, but I have had the ability to see many priests in action and they are always working 100-120 hours by attending Chruch meetings, counseling people, visiting people in the hospital/jail, administering sacraments. The Priest is available to his congregation 24/7. If there is a school with the parish, the school still falls under the authority of the pastor, even if there is a principal.

At ordination- the Priest promises to obey the Bishop, and to give his all in serving his flock.
At marriage- the spouses promise to give their all in serving each other.
Making the same promise to two different groups of people seems contradictory.
I can't imagine the emotional toll this would take on any man
In terms of some Godly men leaving the seminary to have a family: I don't think this is bad thing at all. If God has called them to be married: then great, I'm glad we have good men serving their families.
Just because men are leaving the seminary for family life does not mean there is a problem with priestly celibacy.
 

ryno 24

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The reason for priests and nuns/ sisters not being married is that they are supposed to be married to Christ and the Church. If one is truly doing there job as a priest they would sacrifice either their family or the church. This is evident through history. In the renassaince years priests had family and children and passed down inheritances. This was one of the reasons that the church disallowed priests marrying. also Aristotle goes on to say that there are different levels of knowledge and responsibility one has. Though a family brings a lot of happiness and responsibility it does not allow one to focus as much on spirituality and philosophy. By being unmarried families and children do not get in the way of this.
 

NDohio

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Very good discussion:
In terms of Priestly work comparing to other pastors work:
I don't know pastors duties, but I have had the ability to see many priests in action and they are always working 100-120 hours by attending Chruch meetings, counseling people, visiting people in the hospital/jail, administering sacraments. The Priest is available to his congregation 24/7. If there is a school with the parish, the school still falls under the authority of the pastor, even if there is a principal.

At ordination- the Priest promises to obey the Bishop, and to give his all in serving his flock.
At marriage- the spouses promise to give their all in serving each other.
Making the same promise to two different groups of people seems contradictory.
I can't imagine the emotional toll this would take on any man
In terms of some Godly men leaving the seminary to have a family: I don't think this is bad thing at all. If God has called them to be married: then great, I'm glad we have good men serving their families.
Just because men are leaving the seminary for family life does not mean there is a problem with priestly celibacy.

This is a question that cannot be answered. It is different for each denomination. In most of your mainstream denominations though(Methodist, Lutheran, Church of God, etc) the Pastor performs many of the same duties as a Priest. In your independant churches it varies. The other part of this is the size of the congregation. In your larger churches, the responsibilities will get spread throughout the staff and there is often more than one ordained Pastor on staff. The Pastors at smaller churches often take on a larger role in the many, many duties it take to run a church.
 

Golden_Domer

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I don't follow. Whatever Douthat's point might be, he's not acknowledging that in the 21st century we know how psychologically damaging sexual repression can be. Doing away with clerical celibacy might result in a happier, healthier clergy.

Pretty broad statements. Got any sources that indicate priests are psychologically damaged and that they're unhappy/unhealthy because of "sexual repression"?
 

Domina Nostra

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The stuff that was said today was completely in line with what John Paul II and Benedict XVI taught. Whether Pope Francis changes anything is yet to be seen, but nothing new was said today.

Interesting (for some) article on the topic. It addresses one thing I was told as a kid, that priest were denied marriage to avoid dynasties and claims to church property. It's not for everyone, so please don't read it if it might offend you.

Why are Priests Really Celibate? (and Will it Change with a New Pope?)

Priestly celibacy did serve that secondary purpose, but that is not why it actually arose. It arose because Jesus talked about it, and the early Church--including St. Paul in his epistles--recommended and practiced it.

A lot of the confusion around the history of celibacy comes from the failure to account for "continence" in early Christiniaty. Basically, married men became priests, but gave up relations with their wives permanently, before ordination. This was a lot more suitable for the earliest Church, considering most adults were already married by the time they heard about the church.

So while the priesthood was not alway limited to unmarried men, it has always been--at least in the Western Church (i.e. Rome)--associated with a renunciation of sexual relations: Either the voluntary renunciation of licit marital relations (kind of like a monk vowing poverty though there is nothing wrong with possessions); or the voluntary renunciation of marriage (which is the only pathway to licit sexual realtionships in the Church).

Here are a couple of key books on the topic.

Apostolic Origins of Priestly Celibacy - Fr. Christian Cochini : Ignatius Press

Celibacy in the Early Church: The Beginnings of Obligatory Continence for Clerics in East and West: Stefan Heid: 9780898708004: Amazon.com: Books
 

Emcee77

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Pretty broad statements. Got any sources that indicate priests are psychologically damaged and that they're unhappy/unhealthy because of "sexual repression"?

Certainly didn't mean to suggest that all priests are damaged or unhappy. It's axiomatic in this day and age that some people are damaged by/unhappy due to sexual repression (I mean that concept is literally all over film and television), and I'd thought Buster was arguing that doing away with priest celibacy would be a good thing because it would prevent priests who wanted both to be priests and to have a family from having to choose the first and not the second, with potentially though not necessarily damaging consequences, and since Whiskey had seemed to dismiss that argument, I wanted to say that I think it's a reasonable position that isn't undermined by the Douthat article Whiskey linked. As it turned out, Whiskey was referring more to prior posts of Buster's in other threads than to the one in this thread. So that was the context. I know many priests who seem like extremely happy and healthy people; I would never say that they are all damaged and unhappy.
 

Golden_Domer

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Certainly didn't mean to suggest that all priests are damaged or unhappy. It's axiomatic in this day and age that some people are damaged by/unhappy due to sexual repression (I mean that concept is literally all over film and television), and I'd thought Buster was arguing that doing away with priest celibacy would be a good thing because it would prevent priests who wanted both to be priests and to have a family from having to choose the first and not the second, with potentially though not necessarily damaging consequences, and since Whiskey had seemed to dismiss that argument, I wanted to say that I think it's a reasonable position that isn't undermined by the Douthat article Whiskey linked. As it turned out, Whiskey was referring more to prior posts of Buster's in other threads than to the one in this thread. So that was the context. I know many priests who seem like extremely happy and healthy people; I would never say that they are all damaged and unhappy.

Gotcha. Context is everything.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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This is a rather concise thread, and I wanted to express my honest views on the situation.

When I grew up, a family that were good friends mother was the daughter of a priest. He was a missionary from Hungary. He had several children that never left Hungary, so they never met their younger siblings who were all born and stayed over here. It was only a few years before this woman, Mary Ann died, that she met all of her siblings. At any rate, the Catholic Church has always had married priests.

Who Are Married Catholic Priests?

Most married Catholic priests are part of the Eastern Catholic Churches, also known as the Eastern Rite, who can be found in places like the Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia, the Ukraine, and other nations along the border between Western and Eastern Christianity. These churches are under the jurisdiction of the Vatican and they recognize the authority of the pope; however, their practices and traditions are much closer to those of the Eastern Orthodox Churches. One of those traditions is allowing priests to marry.

Some estimates place the number of married priests at around 20% of all Catholic priests in the world. This would mean that 20% of all Catholic priests are officially and legally married, even though celibacy continues to be a requirement. But marriage is not limited to priests who are part of the Eastern Catholic Churches — we can also find about 100 Catholic priests in America who are married and who are part of the Western Catholicism that comes to mind when most think of Catholicism.

Why are they married? They got married while serving as priests in other Christian denominations, usually the Anglican or Lutheran churches. If such a priest decides that he would be better off within Catholicism, he can apply to a local bishop who then submits a special application to the pope, with decisions being made on a case-by-case basis. If accepted, he is certainly not expected to get divorced or otherwise separate from his spouse, so his wife comes right along as well. This exception to the celibacy rule was created on July 22, 1980.

Thus, a current Catholic priest who wants to get married must choose between marriage and the priesthood (even though celibacy isn't an essential feature of being a priest), while a married Lutheran priest can apply to become a Catholic priest and keep his wife — he doesn't have to choose. Naturally, this causes some hard feelings for those Catholic priests who leave the clergy in order to pursue marriage; yet others are hoping that the presence of such married priests will eventually allow priests who have left to marry to eventually return.

Former priests who marry are currently allowed to do some things for the Catholic Church, but not everything — and with the growing shortage of priests in the United States (the number of priests has declined by 17% since the 1960s, even as the Catholic population has increased 38%), the church may be forced to tap this resource. It's a natural conclusion, after all, because they are experienced and many are eager (and there are around 25,000 of them). That, however, will require dropping mandatory celibacy — it doesn't make any sense to require priests to be celibate if they can get around the rule by simply leaving, marrying, and then coming back.

Much of what we have been taught may not be exactly like what we think. Much of the workings of the church have been much like what we are now finding to be true of all political machines. Not to say there is not a sacred side of The Church, but in addition, there is a real human and political side.

It the early days of the Christian Church, those that managed the household usually celebrated the Eucharist, that would have made women celebrants very common. Speaking of common, at this time the church was a church of the common man and woman.

At the time of the great misogynistic purges of doctrine, literature, and dogma, when the memory of the Magdalene was assassinated, the role of women in the church was reduced. The next time that the common man's role was further reduced was at the hand of Charlemagne; so as the confluence of the political power (Kings) and ecclesiastical power (Popes) began to merge, the power of the common man diminished even further. Women were excluded from virtually any level of service, priestly service became regimented, indoctrinated, and removed to the world of the educated and gifted. The Eucharist was removed from the every day common worshipers presence, and that all ended in the practice of indulgences and inquisitions.

That lasted for a while. Few studies show how closely the Church came to toppling, but if the Carthars or Huguenots had triumphed in that narrow three hundred year period, the Catholic Church could have toppled then. Instead, those that left and started their own churches, all opted for married clergy and the involvement of commoners in complete liturgical practice.

At this time they took the Pope's army away, so he became a much nicer guy. People became more involved in Catholic liturgy, and religious orders, including orders for women, (nuns) flourished.

Headed back to modern times and the conversation at hand, Whiskey I appreciate your point, and much of what the article you posted stated, but I find the main premise of the article a non sequitur; there are fewer Anglicans because nobody wants to be an Anglican, not because of their views on sexuality. Being a WASP is no longer popular, and you don't get a country club membership for being a member of the church anymore. Further, everything from the forced tithe payments, to the force pledges of allegiance forced upon the Irish and others are also long gone! Finally, if that all weren't bad enough, WASPS just are not having kids! They have been in a negative growth rate for over thirty years! Of course their church is shrinking.

And don't look now, so is the Catholic Church. Why? A big part is the advent of the American mega-electronic&TV-evangelic churches. Go to Sunday worship, and watch TV! It is so much easier that choosing a path that may lead to moral and spiritual development!
 

Whiskeyjack

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Headed back to modern times and the conversation at hand, Whiskey I appreciate your point, and much of what the article you posted stated, but I find the main premise of the article a non sequitur; there are fewer Anglicans because nobody wants to be an Anglican, not because of their views on sexuality. Being a WASP is no longer popular, and you don't get a country club membership for being a member of the church anymore. Further, everything from the forced tithe payments, to the force pledges of allegiance forced upon the Irish and others are also long gone! Finally, if that all weren't bad enough, WASPS just are not having kids! They have been in a negative growth rate for over thirty years! Of course their church is shrinking.

It's not just Anglicans. Without exception, every Christian denomination that has chosen to liberalize has declined precipitously over the last few decades. Those denominations that have maintained the integrity of their beliefs-- Roman Catholics, Orthodox Christians, etc.-- have not. That correlation can't be explained away by the reasons you've just offered.

Once a church liberalizes, it can no longer justify its own existence. It becomes entirely superfluous to secular liberal society, and rightly fades away, as it has nothing of value to offer.

And don't look now, so is the Catholic Church. Why? A big part is the advent of the American mega-electronic&TV-evangelic churches.

Religiosity in the West has been steadily declining for centuries, mainly because Western culture has becoming increasingly hostile to the idea of objective morality. But that decline is distinct from the rapid collapse "mainstream" churches have experienced since the sexual revolution.

Go to Sunday worship, and watch TV! It is so much easier that choosing a path that may lead to moral and spiritual development!

Yes, and beware the path of least resistance. From Douthat's article:

Traditional believers, both Protestant and Catholic, have not necessarily thrived in this environment. The most successful Christian bodies have often been politically conservative but theologically shallow, preaching a gospel of health and wealth rather than the full New Testament message.

"Prosperity Theology" is a sad perversion of the Gospel, in that it simply seeks to confirm the ambitious or already wealthy in their greed and complacence. Never mind all that business about sacrifice, dying to the world, carrying one's cross, etc.
 

alaskandomer

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The pastor of our parish is married. He was a Methodist minister who converted to Catholicism, and went through a long process of approvals, culminating at the Vatican, before being ordained. Interestingly, he, his wife, and three children are all ND alums. I was fortunate to have attended his ordination, at which Father Hesburgh was a participant. This brought things full-circle, as Father Ted also presided over their wedding. We live outside the parish boundaries, but are members of our parish, largely because of Father Scott.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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It's not just Anglicans. Without exception, every Christian denomination that has chosen to liberalize has declined precipitously over the last few decades. Those denominations that have maintained the integrity of their beliefs-- Roman Catholics, Orthodox Christians, etc.-- have not. That correlation can't be explained away by the reasons you've just offered.

Once a church liberalizes, it can no longer justify its own existence. It becomes entirely superfluous to secular liberal society, and rightly fades away, as it has nothing of value to offer.

Religiosity in the West has been steadily declining for centuries, mainly because Western culture has becoming increasingly hostile to the idea of objective morality. But that decline is distinct from the rapid collapse "mainstream" churches have experienced since the sexual revolution.

Yes, and beware the path of least resistance. From Douthat's article:

"Prosperity Theology" is a sad perversion of the Gospel, in that it simply seeks to confirm the ambitious or already wealthy in their greed and complacence. Never mind all that business about sacrifice, dying to the world, carrying one's cross, etc.

See? We agree on almost everything on this topic!

But, Whiskey! I would maintain that a fairly small minority look for a well formed moral system, whether it be "objectively" moral or not. Then there is a larger group who looks for help with moral issues. Then there is a larger group that may be helplessly superficial, but wants to be good and moral. The latter group is not bad, they are actually to be commended. Where they do not have the rudder to steer or the sails to catch wind, or the sextant to find the North star and set a course, they do want to be good and live a good and moral life. A relatively few don't care about hurting others or give a flying whatever about these issues. And of course some think they are (wrongly) doing the good and moral thing, "Kill a Commie for Christ."

I am not sure that the hostility that is causing the slow decline is about moral objectivity, or more accurately opposed to "objective" morality. I think it is more about who has the armies, as well as who gets to man the turnstile. The more technology increases, individual comfort and physiological wellbeing is increased, the less people tend to lean on moral codes. At the same time when education increases so there are alternative methods of "knowing" what is objectively moral, people rebel against dogmatic institutions.

And strangely enough coupling that with the birth control pill, (the basis for "the sexual revolution"), may explain everything you have stated, in a slightly different way.

If there is a slow steady decline it has to do with the empowerment of the masses to amass enough information that they can develop a working "objective" moral system in their own life with the freedom and security to pursue it. Further, the decline may be aided by more being able to achieve this, because of gains in wealth, freedom, and information (up to the general availability of the internet).

So churches have slowly lost membership for the abovementioned reasons. Then if a church changes mid-stream, they would have a more dependent than ever membership, they would have "lost" and risk "losing" their membership permanently! Think about it. If a member needed a church to provide me a moral code, then overnight (so to speak) the church changes it, who is gone?
 

GowerND11

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I think Rack 'Em has stated already the ability to be a Deacon as a viable option for those who are already married, or who want to have a family and still be an ordained member of the Church. I am surprised more Catholic men don't do so really. I feel like a lot of people have this desire for a family so that just immediately blocks becoming a priest from their mind. This would seem, to me, that we would have already (or will) see an increase in Deacons, but I haven't really seen this. (Plus is there any data on this anyway)
 
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