Terror Attacks in Belgium

dales5050

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Ooops - now that I have read all of your posts, it's just so obvious to me. We shouldn't judge people based on their race or their sexuality but we should judge them based on their religion. Got it. Because all Muslims are terrorists and all Christians are racist bigots.


No.

You missed it. I never have used the word all in speaking about Muslims. In fact, my first post in this thread was to say not all Muslims are ISIS members but ALL ISIS members Muslim. That is a fact.

Others have tried to inject the use of all as a way to dilute the issue. How dare we talk about the issue with radical Islam when there are 1.6 billion Muslims and only say 20,000 ISIS members. The problem with comments like this is ignoring the spectrum. One that I have pointed out multiple times and one that everyone wants to ignore.

In order for there to be 20,000 (that's a low estimate) ISIS members willing to go out and straight up murder people in the name of Muhammad, you need to have hundreds of thousands Muslims planting the seeds of that hate. In order for the planting of those seeds to grow, you need millions upon millions to look the other way. This is how evil happens.

Go read a book on the holocaust. Then come back and try to suggest the people outside of Auschwitz thought they were just baking bread up there......

It's disingenuous at best to try and ignore the evil that organized religion has done and will continue to do. All too often people choose to ignore or downplay the role these religions have in the world simply due to the size of their body.

Muslims have a huge fucking problem with their house right now. I don't care if you're the most peaceful person in the world. You have an infestation in your religion. Deal with it. You can either take care of it on your own or eventually your house is going to be burned down to the ground so that your neighbors are safe.
 

irishfan

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.</p>— The Associated Press (@AP) <a href="https://twitter.com/AP/status/712719419227635712">March 23, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

FightingIrishLover7

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No.

You missed it. I never have used the word all in speaking about Muslims. In fact, my first post in this thread was to say not all Muslims are ISIS members but ALL ISIS members Muslim. That is a fact.

Others have tried to inject the use of all as a way to dilute the issue. How dare we talk about the issue with radical Islam when there are 1.6 billion Muslims and only say 20,000 ISIS members. The problem with comments like this is ignoring the spectrum. One that I have pointed out multiple times and one that everyone wants to ignore.

In order for there to be 20,000 (that's a low estimate) ISIS members willing to go out and straight up murder people in the name of Muhammad, you need to have hundreds of thousands Muslims planting the seeds of that hate. In order for the planting of those seeds to grow, you need millions upon millions to look the other way. This is how evil happens.

Go read a book on the holocaust. Then come back and try to suggest the people outside of Auschwitz thought they were just baking bread up there......

It's disingenuous at best to try and ignore the evil that organized religion has done and will continue to do. All too often people choose to ignore or downplay the role these religions have in the world simply due to the size of their body.

Muslims have a huge fucking problem with their house right now. I don't care if you're the most peaceful person in the world. You have an infestation in your religion. Deal with it. You can either take care of it on your own or eventually your house is going to be burned down to the ground so that your neighbors are safe.
Man, someone sounds like he has a violence issue... Step away from the ledge, my friend.

The issue we're dealing with is a "cultural gap" that is growing in the opposite direction.

Americans believe, increasingly so, that Muslims = terrorists.

Muslims (radicalized), increasingly so, that a revolution against the corrupt western society is necessary.

When you have two groups of humans, that are misunderstanding each other, the "cultural gap" grows ever more wide. There needs to be a unification of the two cultures.

How that can be achieved? Who knows. Education may help. Exposure would definitely help (increased foreign exchange programs, increased tourism, etc).

One thing is for certain, eliminating an entire religion (culture), will do absolutely nothing to stabilize our geopolitical landscape. (also, no way you can eradicate a religion, you just can't, and the harder you push, the harder it will push back. Equal and opposite reactions).
 

Whiskeyjack

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The Week's Michael Brendan Dougherty just published an article titled "How terrorism is deforming the face of Europe":

Terrorism is beginning to disfigure the face of Europe. Besides the price of the carnage itself, terrorism is changing the character of Europe's politics, threatening to make the arrangements of the EU look like utopianism, and leading to new restrictions and hassles for the lives of Europeans.

Tuesday's terrorist attacks in Brussels, which ISIS claims as its own handiwork, killed dozens and injured hundreds. Officials there say they expected some kind of retaliation for the recent arrest of Salah Abdeslam, who was wanted in connection with last year's attacks in Paris. Until more evidence surfaces, it is impossible to know if this attack was that retaliation or something planned further in advance. Police forces have also turned up evidence that Abdeslam was also planning an attack before his arrest, perhaps this one.

Belgium is a small country, and hundreds of its Muslim residents have traveled to fight in Syria for ISIS and then returned. The security and surveillance demands this threat imposes already overwhelm Belgium's rather limited policing and intelligence resources. At a time when the problems posed by poorly integrated Muslim communities are leading to a renewal of Euroskepticism, the threats to Europe from within Belgium call for something like the opposite: more cooperation on security throughout the continent. How can Germany or France be doing their own job of protecting their citizens if, as last November proved, Belgium can be the source of serious terrorist threats?

But most frightening is the way Europe is changing after each attack. When security is threatened, liberty goes soon afterward. After the November attack in Paris, France's own military deployed in French streets, acting as a semi-permanent guard to synagogues and other Jewish institutions. The former certainties of continental politics are also changing. The Schengen Agreement that allows Europeans free travel across EU borders, perhaps the most tangible way Europeans enjoy modern Europe's peace, is now threatened by the upheaval from terrorism.

At the same time, the inability of Europe to deal with this threat of terrorism, or to maintain even the illusion of control over immigration into the continent fuels the rise of populist nationalism. These new parties, challenging the traditional center, right, and left alike, would do more than erase the Schengen accord should any of them achieve real power in one of the major European states.

Popular frustration over immigration is even starting to bring back early 20th century politics where popular movements dress in uniforms and march through hostile neighborhoods to express themselves and provoke reactions. See the way the English city of Luton has become a stage for an ongoing set of rival productions, Islamist or anti-immigrant.

Some attempts to deal with the problems caused by unassimilated migrants become a sick farce. After what seemed like a night of coordinated mass sexual assault on New Year's Eve, Cologne Mayor Henrietta Recker, an advocate for the cause of refugee resettlement in Europe, advised women to "stick together in groups, don't get split up, even if you're in a party mood.” She also said that perhaps European women needed a “code of conduct” that indicates they are unavailable to be groped by strangers in the street. At the very moment when the defining feature of Western life — freedom to show one's face in public — was temporarily occluded, a political leader was making a backhanded tribute to Sharia law, suggesting that unaccompanied or "frisky" women would meet danger.

When a sense of order and security disappears from a nation, freedom disappears soon after. Europe's leaders denied for decades that they had problems of assimilation, then convinced themselves that radicalization within the modern European ghetto would burn itself out. Now they have almost convinced themselves that a nearly uncontrolled wave of migration carries no significant risks to Europe. But, slowly, the steady pace of attacks, the threat of popular electoral revolt, and a foreboding climate of fear and self-censorship are transforming Europe into something it never intended to be.
 

TomHaverford

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.</p>— The Associated Press (@AP) <a href="https://twitter.com/AP/status/712719419227635712">March 23, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

let's freak the fuck out over 400 people and lose our minds and condemn the other 1,499,999,600 people of the muslim faith.

yes, let's do that. this is what happens every time a small group of assholes blow shit up or murder innocent people. people lose their minds and blame the entire religion and everybody in it.

I'm not big on any religion, but why can't people just use common sense? why buy into the hysteria? 34 people died, it was very tragic, but it's not the fault of the Islam faith or the one billion plus muslims who don't go around murdering innocent people. it's the fault of the fucking assholes who committed the crimes and their fault alone.
 

NDohio

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No.

You missed it. I never have used the word all in speaking about Muslims. In fact, my first post in this thread was to say not all Muslims are ISIS members but ALL ISIS members Muslim. That is a fact.

Others have tried to inject the use of all as a way to dilute the issue. How dare we talk about the issue with radical Islam when there are 1.6 billion Muslims and only say 20,000 ISIS members. The problem with comments like this is ignoring the spectrum. One that I have pointed out multiple times and one that everyone wants to ignore.

In order for there to be 20,000 (that's a low estimate) ISIS members willing to go out and straight up murder people in the name of Muhammad, you need to have hundreds of thousands Muslims planting the seeds of that hate. In order for the planting of those seeds to grow, you need millions upon millions to look the other way. This is how evil happens.

Go read a book on the holocaust. Then come back and try to suggest the people outside of Auschwitz thought they were just baking bread up there......

It's disingenuous at best to try and ignore the evil that organized religion has done and will continue to do. All too often people choose to ignore or downplay the role these religions have in the world simply due to the size of their body.

Muslims have a huge fucking problem with their house right now. I don't care if you're the most peaceful person in the world. You have an infestation in your religion. Deal with it. You can either take care of it on your own or eventually your house is going to be burned down to the ground so that your neighbors are safe.

ISIS members claim to be practicing Muslims just like westboro baptist church members claim to be Christians. They each act upon a perverted version of their respective religions.
 

irishfan

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let's freak the fuck out over 400 people and lose our minds and condemn the other 1,499,999,600 people of the muslim faith.

yes, let's do that. this is what happens every time a small group of assholes blow shit up or murder innocent people. people lose their minds and blame the entire religion and everybody in it.

I'm not big on any religion, but why can't people just use common sense? why buy into the hysteria? 34 people died, it was very tragic, but it's not the fault of the Islam faith or the one billion plus muslims who don't go around murdering innocent people. it's the fault of the fucking assholes who committed the crimes and their fault alone.

There have been 2 attacks on European capitals in just 4.5 months which very obviously coincides with the timeline of their lackadaisical open-border policy for refugees. At this point people sadly don't really bat an eye when there are attacks like this in the Middle East. If there is an attack every couple months in Europe, it will start to get ugly.

Considering the amount of damage that can be done by a small number of terrorists in one attack, I think there would be a lot of paranoia if there was an attack in the U.S. yesterday killing 30+ people and then the AP reported today that there were 400 Isis soldiers now in the country. Boston/San Bernandino attacks only killed 20 people for a comparison.

If I lived in Western Europe, I wouldn't be all for condemning the entire religion, but I'd be "freaking out" a bit considering the Paris/Brussels attacks were carried out by a handful of terrorists and killed 160+ people. I don't really know what the solution is, but 400 Isis soldiers in Europe seems like a very big deal to me and makes me think incidents like in Brussels will happen way more frequently.
 
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ACamp1900

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ISIS members claim to be practicing Muslims just like westboro baptist church members claim to be Christians. They each act upon a perverted version of their respective religions.

Has anyone from Westboro actually physically harmed anyone? Honest question, I may have missed it...
 

gkIrish

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I'm just hoping Greece is spared because we already burn/blow our own shit up. Not trying to make a joke.
 

FightingIrishLover7

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Has anyone from Westboro actually physically harmed anyone? Honest question, I may have missed it...
I think he's suggesting that they're "claiming" to be religiously affiliated with Islam, but in reality they're just a group of rebels/trolls (violent, violent trolls).

Whereas Westboro are "claiming" to be Christian, when they're trolls.

I don't think he's comparing their actions, just the umbrellas they're hiding under.
 

NDohio

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Has anyone from Westboro actually physically harmed anyone? Honest question, I may have missed it...

I think he's suggesting that they're "claiming" to be religiously affiliated with Islam, but in reality they're just a group of rebels/trolls (violent, violent trolls).

Whereas Westboro are "claiming" to be Christian, when they're trolls.

I don't think he's comparing their actions, just the umbrellas they're hiding under.

Correct.
 

FDNYIrish1

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let's freak the fuck out over 400 people and lose our minds and condemn the other 1,499,999,600 people of the muslim faith.

yes, let's do that. this is what happens every time a small group of assholes blow shit up or murder innocent people. people lose their minds and blame the entire religion and everybody in it.

I'm not big on any religion, but why can't people just use common sense? why buy into the hysteria? 34 people died, it was very tragic, but it's not the fault of the Islam faith or the one billion plus muslims who don't go around murdering innocent people. it's the fault of the fucking assholes who committed the crimes and their fault alone.

400 trained fighters is a substantial amount of people that can do significant damage in coordinated attacks. Paris, Brussels, Mumbai. All small groups responsible for a whole lot of death and destruction. While I agree that people are quick to condemn an entire religion based on the actions of a few, I believe we absolutely need to be concerned with the ability of the violent minority and their desire to kill. Plus the 400 number is just the amount that have been trained and returned to Europe, not including sympathizers and those already radicalized. There should absolutely be concern of what they are willing and capable of.
 

pkt77242

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There have been 2 attacks on European capitals in just 4.5 months which very obviously coincides with the timeline of their lackadaisical open-border policy for refugees. At this point people sadly don't really bat an eye when there are attacks like this in the Middle East. If there is an attack every couple months in Europe, it will start to get ugly.

Considering the amount of damage that can be done by a small number of terrorists in one attack, I think there would be a lot of paranoia if there was an attack in the U.S. yesterday killing 30+ people and then the AP reported today that there were 400 Isis soldiers now in the country. Boston/San Bernandino attacks only killed 20 people for a comparison.

If I lived in Western Europe, I wouldn't be all for condemning the entire religion, but I'd be "freaking out" a bit considering the Paris/Brussels attacks were carried out by a handful of terrorists and killed 160+ people. I don't really know what the solution is, but 400 Isis soldiers in Europe seems like a very big deal to me and makes me think incidents like in Brussels will happen way more frequently.

It might coincide with it but so far it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the refugees. For example the one person named so far in the Brussel's attack wasn't a refugee (and since his brother is one of the other terrorists we can probably assume that he wasn't a refugee either). The problem is that Belgium and some other EU countries have a homegrown terrorist problem and Belgium doesn't have the budget to adequately keep all of them under surveillance and it is causing a problem for the rest of the EU (since they have open borders between countries).
 

kmoose

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It might coincide with it but so far it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the refugees. For example the one person named so far in the Brussel's attack wasn't a refugee (and since his brother is one of the other terrorists we can probably assume that he wasn't a refugee either). The problem is that Belgium and some other EU countries have a homegrown terrorist problem and Belgium doesn't have the budget to adequately keep all of them under surveillance and it is causing a problem for the rest of the EU (since they have open borders between countries).

So you are not aware that one of the passports of the Paris attackers showed that he came to Europe through a camp for Syrian refugees?
 

pkt77242

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So you are not aware that one of the passports of the Paris attackers showed that he came to Europe through a camp for Syrian refugees?

Yes I am but

Who is Salah Abdeslam and who were the Paris terrorists? Everything we know about the Isil attackers - Telegraph

The real name of the suicide bomber apparently carrying a fake Syrian passport when he detonated at the Stade de France remains a mystery, but officials say he entered Europe as an asylum seeker less than two months earlier.

The counterfeit document bearing the name 'Ahmad al Mohammad' was found alongside the body, whose fingerprints match a man using the name to enter Greece in early October.

Federica Mogherini, the EU's chief diplomat, said all the attackers are believed to be EU citizens, however, raising the possibility the man was using the fake passport to re-enter Europe, possibly because his real identity was on a watch list.

It seems likely that he wasn't an actual refugee but an EU citizen. Now yes he did come through the camps but he wasn't an actual refugee but an EU citizen sneaking back in. I guess I see it as a small but important distinction. It goes back to the EU's big problem that there are a lot of EU citizens who have been radicalized.
 

irishfan

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Yes I am but

Who is Salah Abdeslam and who were the Paris terrorists? Everything we know about the Isil attackers - Telegraph



It seems likely that he wasn't an actual refugee but an EU citizen. Now yes he did come through the camps but he wasn't an actual refugee but an EU citizen sneaking back in. I guess I see it as a small but important distinction. It goes back to the EU's big problem that there are a lot of EU citizens who have been radicalized.

I was going to add this. If anything it seems worse than a 2nd (or 3rd or whatever) generation immigrant can't assimilate.

And to add to the earlier response: I wasn't very clear, but I wasn't trying to imply that the men carrying out these attacks were recent refugees or economic migrants. Only that the fact that these attacks have occurred during this mass migration is only going to add to the hysteria. Especially if there are actually more similar attacks in the near future. Which sadly seems likely.
 

dales5050

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Man, someone sounds like he has a violence issue... Step away from the ledge, my friend.

The issue we're dealing with is a "cultural gap" that is growing in the opposite direction.

We have thousands of people waging jihad around the globe by blowing up people and places...yet I am the one who has the anger issue.

The issue we're dealing with goes way beyond a 'cultural gap'.... I just don't even know how to unpack such a statement.
 

dales5050

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One thing is for certain, eliminating an entire religion (culture), will do absolutely nothing to stabilize our geopolitical landscape. (also, no way you can eradicate a religion, you just can't, and the harder you push, the harder it will push back. Equal and opposite reactions).

I am not saying Islam will be eliminated. I am not suggesting that there will ever be an effort to eradicate a religion either. Lastly, I am not saying it will the US that will be the leader.

What I am saying is that radical Islam, which to me is a spectrum from ISIS all the way to nations under Sharia law, is going to be lumped together. Right now they are not. Eventually 'people' are going to stop being scared to talk about the issue and they are going to start reacting much differently than they are today. In case you didn't realize, they are not setting of bombs in just the US and ISIS pretty much wants to pick a fight everywhere.

At some point 'they' are going to poke the global bear one too many times and the rest of the world is going to react. Just what do you think will happen when something similar to the size of 9/11 happens in Russia. What happens when it's 2,000 people in the financial district of London or Sarin gas in Hamburg?

At some point counter-efforts are going to go beyond trying to kill the guys in the sand and look at where the seeds are planted and nourished. That was my point.
 

dales5050

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ISIS members claim to be practicing Muslims just like westboro baptist church members claim to be Christians. They each act upon a perverted version of their respective religions.

Very good point.

Just what is the perverted version of Islam from your perspective? Is it what you see when looking at an ISIS stronghold or do you see a perverted version in places like Qatar?

For me, when you have a culture that puts women as a second class it's the beginning of the very slippery slope to a culture where becoming a martyr for Muhammad is not only accepted but encouraged.
 

dales5050

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FFS dude did i say that? Spend your dollars on a brain instead.


Was mostly using the same tactic used by others in this thread. Taking something specific and turning it around on the poster with a wide brush.

But there is a point to be made that as long as Western societies interact with nations like Qatar, hell even letting them bribe their way to a World Cup, western societies are complicit in some way as to what happens there.

But it's not politically correct to talk about such things......
 

woolybug25

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Was mostly using the same tactic used by others in this thread. Taking something specific and turning it around on the poster with a wide brush.

But there is a point to be made that as long as Western societies interact with nations like Qatar, hell even letting them bribe their way to a World Cup, western societies are complicit in some way as to what happens there.

But it's not politically correct to talk about such things......

emma-watsongosh.gif
 

kmoose

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It seems likely that he wasn't an actual refugee but an EU citizen. Now yes he did come through the camps but he wasn't an actual refugee but an EU citizen sneaking back in. I guess I see it as a small but important distinction. It goes back to the EU's big problem that there are a lot of EU citizens who have been radicalized.

Look......... no one is saying that the Syrian refugees are terrorists. The problem is that the terrorists can blend in with the Syrian refugees and go through the most minimal amount of screening. It's an easy conduit into the places that they otherwise would have great difficulty getting back into, as you pointed out yourself. THAT is the correlation between the refugees and the terror attacks in at least one European capitol. No one is accusing the "real refugees"of being terrorists.
 
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