Scalia Dead.

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Buster Bluth

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His line "Read it and weep, Democrats. The shoe is on the other foot." is just great considering 1960 is before the southern Democrats flipped to the Republicans. I mean they're passing this bill in the election year sandwiched between these two results:

500px-1956nationwidecountymapshadedbyvoteshare.svg.png


500px-1964nationwidecountymapshadedbyvoteshare.svg.png


Those awful Democrats passed that thing 52-33 in a time when 100% of the Senators from states like Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Florida (pre-AC and Castro mind you), Tennessee, South Carolina, Georgia, Arkansas, North Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, Texas, Oklahoma, etc were Democrats...and who would soon become solidly Republican.
 
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Bishop2b5

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His line "Read it and weep, Democrats. The shoe is on the other foot." is just great considering 1960 is before the southern Democrats flipped to the Republicans. I mean they're passing this bill in the election year sandwiched between these two results:

500px-1956nationwidecountymapshadedbyvoteshare.svg.png


500px-1964nationwidecountymapshadedbyvoteshare.svg.png


Those awful Democrats passed that thing 52-33 in a time when 100% of the Senators from states like Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Florida (pre-AC and Castro mind you), Tennessee, South Carolina, Georgia, Arkansas, North Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, Texas, Oklahoma, etc were Democrats...and who would soon become solidly Republican.

Buster, would you put those two maps into context and explain when they're from, what the red & blue areas represent, etc. please?
 
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Rack Em

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Why? Obama in particular aside, I see no issue with a former president sitting on the Supreme Court. Nor is there anything in the constitution prohibiting it.

Former Presidents would have the ability to issue opinions (should they not properly recuse themselves) on legislation/executive orders they proposed/wrote. That's a serious conflict of interest.

It seems unethical for a president to wield that much influence over the legislative process. It's too much power for one person.

There also wasn't an amendment about 2 term presidencies until FDR wanted to be emperor. George Washington set a clear standard that all other Presidents were willing to follow...save FDR. I see it being like that. No written rule, but just antithetical to the idea having term limits on the presidency; it's to keep from power concentrating in one person's hands. It could also establishe a precedent where former Presidents automatically become the next SC justice, again concentrating power in a couple hands for 30+ years. Count me out of anything close to that.
 

woolybug25

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Former Presidents would have the ability to issue opinions (should they not properly recuse themselves) on legislation/executive orders they proposed/wrote. That's a serious conflict of interest.

It seems unethical for a president to wield that much influence over the legislative process. It's too much power for one person.

There also wasn't an amendment about 2 term presidencies until FDR wanted to be emperor. George Washington set a clear standard that all other Presidents were willing to follow...save FDR. I see it being like that. No written rule, but just antithetical to the idea having term limits on the presidency; it's to keep from power concentrating in one person's hands. It could also establishe a precedent where former Presidents automatically become the next SC justice, again concentrating power in a couple hands for 30+ years. Count me out of anything close to that.

So are you talking about a sitting president ALSO sitting as a Supreme Court Justice?

That's different, but no one is suggesting that. We are talking about former Presidents. As mentioned above, Taft did it, and there isn't anything unconstitutional about it. It's also not additional power, as that person wouldn't have any presidential power anymore.

Edit - didn't read your post well enough. Yeah... I guess I see your point, but I disagree. The same could be said for anyone that served as a policy maker or were part of legal proceedings for Supreme Court cases. That would seriously limit the amount of capable candidates for the position. I don't have time to research it, but I bet that if you look at the current justices, most if not all of them, have probably been part of Supreme Court proceedings before serving as a justice. So they could easily have to proceed over decisions they argued previously. That's one of the reasons we have a panel of them and not just one person.
 
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Buster Bluth

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The top one is 1956 and the bottom one is 1964.

Basically the southern evangelical racists switched from being predominantly Democrats to being Republicans. I don't like to toss the accusation of racism around lightly, but hey when you consistently vote for pro-segregation candidates that's what ya get..

Those pictures do a good job showing what particular part of the country would oppose both Eisenhower and Johnson a mere eight years apart. Eisenhower and Johnson pushed Civil Rights Acts in 1954, 1957, 1964, and 1965, respectively.

In a similar way that the Republican primary is a shitshow of gay-fearing, traditional values-touting, god-fearing rhetoric that moderate candidates have to dodge (see: Romney, McCain), Democrats used to have to do that. Liberals like Roosevelt and Kennedy had to play the "placate the Southern Democrats" game. Then Lyndon Johnson, himself a Southern Democrat but always an opportunist and populist, passed the Civil Rights Bill of 1964 and supposedly mentioned to Bill Mohers something along the lines of "Welp we just lost the South for a generation." Nixon and Co would come along with a Southern Strategy and the Republicans have been the party of ndgradstudent ever since.

The bill in question, passed by the Senate in 1960, was strictly partisan and had nothing to do with social issues that I can see, so it's meaningless. I just wanted to call out that writer for not being cognizant of history when he's trying to be flashy.
 

GoIrish41

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No President should ever have that much power in a Constitutional Republic. Ever. Without question. Without exception. That has the most horrid implications for the legal system ever.

He would also have to recuse himself from so many decisions in the next 10-20 years that it would be a waste anyway.

It's not without precedent. Taft served on the Supreme Court after being president.

Edit: Didn't see the post above. Sorry.
 
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phgreek

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meh...I guess If a democrat president appointed Mr. Obama, and everyone was happy with his legal background...I'd be ok. The bigger issue for me is that I think he should have to wait 4 years. Too often the court is the thing preventing Presidents from doing stupid shit for stupid reasons in illegal ways...a 4 year cooling off would be a condition for me to buy in.
 
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Cackalacky

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His line "Read it and weep, Democrats. The shoe is on the other foot." is just great considering 1960 is before the southern Democrats flipped to the Republicans. I mean they're passing this bill in the election year sandwiched between these two results:

500px-1956nationwidecountymapshadedbyvoteshare.svg.png


500px-1964nationwidecountymapshadedbyvoteshare.svg.png


Those awful Democrats passed that thing 52-33 in a time when 100% of the Senators from states like Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Florida (pre-AC and Castro mind you), Tennessee, South Carolina, Georgia, Arkansas, North Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, Texas, Oklahoma, etc were Democrats...and who would soon become solidly Republican.

Buster, would you put those two maps into context and explain when they're from, what the red & blue areas represent, etc. please?

The top one is 1956 and the bottom one is 1964.

Basically the southern evangelical racists switched from being predominantly Democrats to being Republicans. I don't like to toss the accusation of racism around lightly, but hey when you consistently vote for pro-segregation candidates that's what ya get..

Those pictures do a good job showing what particular part of the country would oppose both Eisenhower and Johnson a mere eight years apart. Eisenhower and Johnson pushed Civil Rights Acts in 1954, 1957, 1964, and 1965, respectively.

In a similar way that the Republican primary is a shitshow of gay-fearing, traditional values-touting, god-fearing rhetoric that moderate candidates have to dodge (see: Romney, McCain), Democrats used to have to do that. Liberals like Roosevelt and Kennedy had to play the "placate the Southern Democrats" game. Then Lyndon Johnson, himself a Southern Democrat but always an opportunist and populist, passed the Civil Rights Bill of 1964 and supposedly mentioned to Bill Mohers something along the lines of "Welp we just lost the South for a generation." Nixon and Co would come along with a Southern Strategy and the Republicans have been the party of ndgradstudent ever since.

The bill in question, passed by the Senate in 1960, was strictly partisan and had nothing to do with social issues that I can see, so it's meaningless. I just wanted to call out that writer for not being cognizant of history when he's trying to be flashy.

Buster is correct. The writer makes a grave ommission IMO. I have posted several comprehensive posts on Richard Nixon's Southern Strategy which essentially took advantage of Goldwater's gains in the Solid South and the growing resentment in the South of integration. The result being that the Republican's actively sought out a reliable voter base that was by culture and demographics, decidedly white and pro segregation.

The yellow in the top map is the Dixiecrats who led by Thurmond separated from the northern democrats on the party's pro-integration stance and took a hardline segregation stance. He lost picking up only South Carolina but Goldwater capitalized more in the later election winning a few states. Nixon realized there were votes to be had and went after them, succeeding of course.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Buster, would you put those two maps into context and explain when they're from, what the red & blue areas represent, etc. please?

Then and now.

The point is the context is it, says Buster.

Sorry Buster, I didn't mean to speak for you.


Gosh, I hope I have it right.


Now speaking for myself, the one thing Scalia had right is that all politics is a game, the end goal is making good for themselves, (politicians, and their special interests) at the cost of groups of citizens, if not the citizenry as a whole.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Buster is correct. The writer makes a grave ommission IMO. I have posted several comprehensive posts on Richard Nixon's Southern Strategy which essentially took advantage of Goldwater's gains in the Solid South and the growing resentment in the South of integration. The result being that the Republican's actively sought out a reliable voter base that was by culture and demographics, decidedly white and pro segregation.

The yellow in the top map is the Dixiecrats who led by Thurmond separated from the northern democrats on the party's pro-integration stance and took a hardline segregation stance. He lost picking up only South Carolina but Goldwater capitalized more in the later election winning a few states. Nixon realized there were votes to be had and went after them, succeeding of course.

Brilliant as usual, Cack!

Everything supported the Republicans in their attempt, the conservative nature of Goldwater, the Civil Rights legislation championed by Johnson -- especially with his administration getting bogged down in a public failure over Viet Nam, the assassination attempt of George Wallace, etc. They struck turning one of the most Democratic strongholds in the country, solidly Republican.

This even coincides with generational changes in ethnic populations. The Irish, for instance who had been on the outside prior to the First War, comprised a huge force that invaded politics, and public service. There generation remained democrats, but their children, faced with mainstream success, switched to the Republican party in droves.

That generation became the backbone of the Democratic support for Ronald Reagan. So. I believe that movement had a wide range of groups looking to move, philosophically, and had longevity; the movement continued over a long period of time. In fact, the only thing that dampened it is Nixon, and his idiotic moves in Viet Nam. Vietnam, and Nixon's abject lack of character, gave the Democrats some short term gains that masked the long-term movement away from Democratic principles and membership in the Democratic party.

In fact, if it hadn't been for the wars, and the great wealth that they produced, that was had by everyone, that produced an influential middle class, and the environment that produced an 'independent voter.' someone free enough to not vote strictly along party lines, Buster's map may be entirely red today!
 
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Cackalacky

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Brilliant as usual, Cack!

Everything supported the Republicans in their attempt, the conservative nature of Goldwater, the Civil Rights legislation championed by Johnson -- especially with his administration getting bogged down in a public failure over Viet Nam, the assassination attempt of George Wallace, etc. They struck turning one of the most Democratic strongholds in the country, solidly Republican.

This even coincides with generational changes in ethnic populations. The Irish, for instance who had been on the outside prior to the First War, comprised a huge force that invaded politics, and public service. There generation remained democrats, but their children, faced with mainstream success, switched to the Republican party in droves.

That generation became the backbone of the Democratic support for Ronald Reagan. So. I believe that movement had a wide range of groups looking to move, philosophically, and had longevity; the movement continued over a long period of time. In fact, the only thing that dampened it is Nixon, and his idiotic moves in Viet Nam. Vietnam, and Nixon's abject lack of character, gave the Democrats some short term gains that masked the long-term movement away from Democratic principles and membership in the Democratic party.

In fact, if it hadn't been for the wars, and the great wealth that they produced, that was had by everyone, that produced an influential middle class, and the environment that produced an 'independent voter.' someone free enough to not vote strictly along party lines, Buster's map may be entirely red today!

Yes.... which is why now, the Republican party is now philosophically divided internally among pro-business oriented policies and religious oriented morality policies though they somehow have managed to convince each they are beneficial to each other. Ironically Goldwater was very skeptical of the religous right's encroachment into Republican policy:

“Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.”
Seems like he nailed our current crop of Tea Party candidates perfectly and over 40 years ago to boot.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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TAC's Rod Dreher just published an article titled "Scalia & One Nation":

Some readers can’t figure out why I said over the weekend that my first reaction upon hearing of Justice Scalia’s death was fear for the country. Really? they ask, not unreasonably. He was only one justice on a court of nine, and when you think about it, he was on the losing side of the high-profile issues that religious and social conservatives most care about (that is, abortion and marriage).

Well, I’ve thought about it, and here’s why I still believe my gut reaction was valid. In fact, I believe it now more than I did over the weekend.

First, the death of Scalia has unleashed even more and greater political passions than we have yet seen in this already passionate election year. You will have seen by now that the Senate Republicans have ruled out voting on a nominee to replace Scalia until a new president is in place. This makes sense from one point of view. The partisan one is obvious: the GOP hopes that it’s a Republican president making that appointment. But I think there’s a prudential case to be made for this as well: that the next nomination is going to be the most politically contentious one since Robert Bork’s, and will likely exceed that one in extreme combativeness. It is arguably in the greater interest of the country that the new president and the new Senate make this call, given that the November vote will have been the closest thing we can have to a referendum on the direction the American people want the post-Scalia court to take.

But it is inconceivable that the nomination would be any less contentious if it were made by the new president. Both parties will fight as hard and as dirty as they would have done otherwise. Plus, if I were a Democrat, I would be outraged by what the Senate is doing. The sitting president has a right to nominate a candidate for the Supreme Court; that’s the way our system works. David Frum points out, quit reasonably, that there’s a huge political risk in the Senate GOP refusing to consider an Obama nominee to replace him:

By assuring Obama that he need not worry that a nominee will actually serve on the Court, McConnell empowered and invited the president to play radical politics with the nomination. The big concern Democrats have (or should have) about 2016 is the decline in turnout that occurred between 2008 and 2012. Obama’s support dropped by 3.6 million votes between his election and his re-election. The Republican ticket gained only 900,000 votes over the same four years. Absenteeism was most marked among younger voters and Latinos.

What saved Obama was the loyalty and commitment of African Americans: their participation actually increased between 2008 and 2012—and it was their ballots that provided the president with his margin of victory. If they should feel uninspired in 2016, the Democratic nominee is likely doomed. Democrats will want to do everything they can to rev up African American excitement and energy.

Such as for example, nominating somebody like Eric Holder, who might welcome his nomination with a fiery statement about voting rights, affirmative action, and Black Lives Matter. Republicans would of course go wild, denying him a hearing … and Democrats would gain a bloody shirt to wave in November. Emancipated from worrying about the best candidate for the bench, they could instead use the nomination to elect their candidate to the Oval Office.

The point I’m trying to make here is not that the Senate should do this or that, but that whatever it does, replacing Scalia in the current polarized atmosphere is going to tear our already frayed bonds even worse. How can anyone who cares about the country look forward to what’s to come? The result of the confirmation battle, whatever side wins, will be simply this: that we will hate each other even more across partisan lines.

It is, of course, bizarre that it has come to this for the nation: that the nomination of a Supreme Court justice could inspire such passions. But that’s because of the role the Court has taken in the culture war. This is the poisoned fruit of what Ted Kennedy and his Senate Democratic colleagues did to Robert Bork. And this is also the poisoned fruit of the culture-war results-oriented jurisprudence of the Court — especially Reagan appointee Anthony Kennedy — on abortion and same-sex marriage. It fell to Scalia, over and over again, to reveal the partisan emptiness of these rulings, and therefore how nakedly political the Court had become on defending the Sexual Revolution at all costs.

It was Scalia’s scalding, mocking phrase — “the sweet mystery of life” — that revealed the vacuity of Kennedy’s reasoning in the majority Planned Parenthood vs. Casey opinion reaffirming Roe. The logic of that single fateful decision, which defined liberty as “the right to define one’s own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life,” has been the foundation upon which other key decisions in advancing the constitutionalization of the Sexual Revolution were built. Scalia repeatedly pointed this out — that is, showed with prophetic clarity and conviction where this was taking us. In his lacerating 2003 dissent in Lawrence vs. Texas, which overturned sodomy laws, Scalia demonstrated that the Court had destroyed the basis for any so-called “morals laws” governing sexual conduct. He pointed out that he was not defending the Texas sodomy law in itself, but only the principle that states have a right to pass laws like it. And he said, most memorably, that the majority opinion’s assurance that the holding in Lawrence would not mandate gay marriage was worthless (“Don’t you believe it”).

And he was right. Scalia said that the Court had ceased to be an impartial observer, and had taken sides in the culture war. The Court had become inappropriately political. Mind you, the Court’s decisions inevitably have political consequences. This is unavoidable. Scalia’s point is that on questions having to do with what you might call sexual liberty, the Court had usurped the role of the legislature, and done so on specious legal grounds.

Scalia’s death hits conservatives very hard because he was, in some sense, a restraining force. As Molly Ball points out, Scalia, an ardently traditional Catholic, did not always come down in his decisions on the side that pleased religious believers. Nevertheless, as a general matter, Scalia’s death hits social and religious conservatives with particular intensity because we know that the deck is stacked against us on the Court — and that the stakes in this post-Christian society could not be higher.

What’s ironic about this, obviously, is that Scalia usually was on the losing side of the cases that mattered most to us social conservatives. Elliot Milco captures what Scalia meant to us philosophically and, well, emotionally. Milco recalls Scalia’s words in his Windsor dissent (Windsor was the decision that struck down the federal Defense of Marriage Act), in which Scalia lacerated the Court majority for labeling those who hold to the traditional view of marriage as hostes humani generis — enemies of the human race. (You will remember that the majority opinion held that the only reasons to defend traditional marriage were rooted in bigotry). Milco writes:

Those of us who have run the liberal academic gauntlet knew, in 2013, what Scalia meant in Windsor. We understood what it meant to be labeled hostes humani generis. It meant to be deprived of the right to voice your opinion in the public square; to be excluded on principle from the main stream of civil discourse. To be told that your moral universe was anathema to the political foundations of a free society.

Antonin Scalia was a hero to me, as he was to thousands, perhaps millions of conservative Americans. He was brilliant. He was morally engaged. His prose sparkled. He was the great champion of the Right, and he could not be silenced or voted out, no matter how much the press despised him. While his enemies pushed relentlessly to have their views enshrined as fundamental principles of free society, Scalia fought to keep the moral question open for debate, to maintain the possibility of reasonable dissent, because he believed that in a fair fight we could still prevail. He was the mighty rearguard in our long and slow defeat.

That’s it. That’s it exactly. We know we’re losing, and that we are going to lose. But there was something heroic in knowing that the wiser man was standing there in the arena telling his colleagues on the Court, and indeed the entire nation, exactly what they were doing. The cause may have been lost — and on this, Scalia had this Court’s number from virtually the beginning — but with Scalia on the Court, we marched into exile with our heads held high, knowing that the stronger army won, but not the better one.

In an emotional sense, for me, Scalia functioned as a kind of keystone holding up the crumbling arc of the Republic. I know: he lost these morally significant cases having to do with the dignity of life and the meaning of marriage, even though he did not fight them on moral grounds, but on legal, democratic ones. And yes, I know that Scalia was himself no kind of unifying figure that keeps the entire structure from falling down, as a keystone does. What I’m trying to convey is what it feels like to experience his loss from the point of view of a religious and social conservative. As I said, there was something of a restraining force about him — maybe by the power of his prose and his intellect, and the strength of his conviction. In any case, the passions that will now come roaring forward in the fight to replace him will do damage that we are not well suited to absorb. To have him pass from the scene at a time when the Democrats are prepared to drive traditional religious believers from the public square, and when the Republicans are melting down, is an extremely bad sign. Again, David Frum, this time on the repulsive spectacle of the GOP debate on the day Scalia died:

On Twitter, I compared the night to a horrible Thanksgiving at which one too many bottles of wine is opened, and the family members begin shouting what they really think of each other. But in retrospect the evening was too ominous for even so bitter a joke.

For a decade and a half, Republicans have stifled internal debates about the George W. Bush presidency. They have preserved a more or less common front, by the more or less agreed upon device of not looking backward, not talking candidly, and focusing all their accumulated anger on the figure of Obama. The Trump candidacy has smashed all those coping mechanisms. Everything that was suppressed has been exposed, everything that went unsaid is being shouted aloud—and all before a jeering live audience, as angry itself as any of the angry men on the platform. Is this a functional political party? Is this an organization readying itself to govern? Or is it one more—most spectacular—show of self-evisceration by a party that has been bleeding on the inside for a decade and longer?

I am grateful to Donald Trump for forcing the Republican Party to confront the legacies of the Bush presidency, especially on Iraq and foreign policy, but also on its collaboration on the globalist project of hollowing out middle America. But Trump is a demagogue and a tyrant-in-waiting, and no degree of natural disgust with what the Republican Party has become can obviate that fact. Had the GOP had these discussions before now, they might have avoided the Trump phenomenon. But they didn’t, and now they can’t stop it. Ross Douthat tweeted over the weekend:

Between Trump and Scalia, hard to escape the feeling that 2016 is an Ending, of some sort, for American conservatism as we’ve known it.

— Ross Douthat (@DouthatNYT) February 14, 2016

That’s true, and I would add that it’s hard to escape the feeling that this year is an ending, of some sort, for America as we’ve known it. This is why my gut reaction to Scalia’s death is to fear for my country in a way I have not since 9/11. The fight to replace Scalia, no matter which president nominates that candidate, is going to cause us to remember the Bork confirmation hearings as a gathering of the Garden Club board to work out the menu for spring tea. We are going to emerge from that Gettysburg bloodied, maimed, and full of passionate intensity, with one side or the other holding the nation’s supreme legal institution in even greater contempt.

This is going to happen for reasons that the Prophet Antonin Scalia warned us about again and again. And this is going to happen for reasons that the Prophet Alasdair MacIntyre warned us about. The United States, I fear, is about to live out a judgment.

Finally, remember this exchange from an interview Scalia had with a writer for New York magazine:

Isn’t it terribly frightening to believe in the Devil?
You’re looking at me as though I’m weird. My God! Are you so out of touch with most of America, most of which believes in the Devil? I mean, Jesus Christ believed in the Devil! It’s in the Gospels! You travel in circles that are so, so removed from mainstream America that you are appalled that anybody would believe in the Devil! Most of mankind has believed in the Devil, for all of history. Many more intelligent people than you or me have believed in the Devil.

You watch: we are on the verge of seeing Scalia vindicated, again.

Scalia dying during this time of tremendous social upheaval and political disenchantment, when large swathes of the American people are flirting with an open populist rebellion, bodes very poorly for the stability of our country.
 
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dshans

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Scalia dying during this time of tremendous social upheaval and political disenchantment, when large swathes of the American people are flirting with an open populist rebellion, bodes very poorly for the stability of our country.

Why is this such an apparently "bad thing" to you? For what reasons? What are the possible consequences that you so fear?
 

phgreek

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TAC's Rod Dreher just published an article titled "Scalia & One Nation":



Scalia dying during this time of tremendous social upheaval and political disenchantment, when large swathes of the American people are flirting with an open populist rebellion, bodes very poorly for the stability of our country.


I feel like I'm reading the lament in someone's voice describing the events leading up to the Civil war...in present tense. Spooky.

One thing about the Calculus of McConnell:

Seems to me Republicans will get hammered some for jumping right out of the gate and saying they won't bring any nominee to the floor. However, I'm not convinced that wasn't a really good idea. Had they waited for a nominee, and even voted them down, I can't imagine what would come. What if the nominee was a minority of some kind...The Dems would no doubt play the hell out of that, and THAT would impact the impending election by galvinizing minority vote, and fuel turnout for the Dems. As it stands Mcconell took that bullet right out of the gun. All that is left for Dems is to throw rocks from glass houses about procedure. Now, as it stands I think the voter turnout will be on the Republican side, and the vacant SCOTUS spot is an additional impetus. I think Mitch McConnell, in a rare moment actually understood the battle ground in a purely political sense. Would I give him credit for being prudent for the sake of the country...mmmmm that one is tough.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Why is this such an apparently "bad thing" to you? For what reasons? What are the possible consequences that you so fear?

Take a look at the sorts of leaders that populist movements have historically supported: Putin, Berlusconi, Chavez, Hitler, etc. The most prominent American populist, Andrew Jackson, has a strong claim to being our most divisive and violent President. And now Trump, an aspiring tyrant, leads among GOP candidates and has for months.

As the articles I've posted here consistently argue, this populist revolt is the direct result of decades of failure by both the GOP and the DNC. I think our anger is properly directed at the political establishment that, through its pride, incompetence and corruption, has brought us to this point; decrying Trump's supporters as bigoted rubes is just as unhelpful as denouncing the poor for their apparent lack of virtue. They're our countrymen, and we've got to find a way forward together, or not at all.

So it's quite possible to recognize Trump as a plague richly deserved by both the Republican and Democratic houses. Though that doesn't prevent me from earnestly hoping that the concerns driving the populist movement can be addressed without totally repudiating the current system. Revolutionaries are often correct about what ails us, but their suggested medicine is virtually always worse than the disease itself.
 

drayer54

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Take a look at the sorts of leaders that populist movements have historically supported: Putin, Berlusconi, Chavez, Hitler, etc. The most prominent American populist, Andrew Jackson, has a strong claim to being our most divisive and violent President. And now Trump, an aspiring tyrant, leads among GOP candidates and has for months.

As the articles I've posted here consistently argue, this populist revolt is the direct result of decades of failure by both the GOP and the DNC. I think our anger is properly directed at the political establishment that, through its pride, incompetence and corruption, has brought us to this point; decrying Trump's supporters as bigoted rubes is just as unhelpful as denouncing the poor for their apparent lack of virtue. They're our countrymen, and we've got to find a way forward together, or not at all.

So it's quite possible to recognize Trump as a plague richly deserved by both the Republican and Democratic houses. Though that doesn't prevent me from earnestly hoping that the concerns driving the populist movement can be addressed without totally repudiating the current system. Revolutionaries are often correct about what ails us, but their suggested medicine is virtually always worse than the disease itself.

I have been guilty of thinking of the Trump supporters as uneducated morons who are blinded by the old "I want a businessman" crap. However, I think you are right with this post.

People are fed up with feeling like the government has become so dysfunctional and wasteful that it is out of control. Also, the growing inequality is an issue that the GOP better acknowledge or ignore at its own peril. A little bit of inequality is good, but too much can leave an entire generation out of the productive culture our country requires to be "great again."

I agree with the problem, but as you suggest... I fear the proposed solution.
 

wizards8507

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People are fed up with feeling like the government has become so dysfunctional and wasteful that it is out of control. Also, the growing inequality is an issue that the GOP better acknowledge or ignore at its own peril. A little bit of inequality is good, but too much can leave an entire generation out of the productive culture our country requires to be "great again."
Inequality is not a bad thing.

Scenario 1:
50% of the population makes $50,000
40% of the population makes $75,000
10% of the population makes $100,000

Scenario 2:
50% of the population makes $55,000
40% of the population makes $90,000
10% of the population makes $10,000,000

The equality argument would bitch and complain about Scenario 2 because it's less "fair" than Scenario 1, even though every class of people is better off. The line of thinking plays into the Bernie Sanders argument that rich people get rich by taking from the poor, but that's not reality when you have an economic model that promotes growth. It's not a bad thing if the rich get richer if their actions also mean the poor get richer.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Take a look at the sorts of leaders that populist movements have historically supported: Putin, Berlusconi, Chavez, Hitler, etc. The most prominent American populist, Andrew Jackson, has a strong claim to being our most divisive and violent President. And now Trump, an aspiring tyrant, leads among GOP candidates and has for months.

As the articles I've posted here consistently argue, this populist revolt is the direct result of decades of failure by both the GOP and the DNC. I think our anger is properly directed at the political establishment that, through its pride, incompetence and corruption, has brought us to this point; decrying Trump's supporters as bigoted rubes is just as unhelpful as denouncing the poor for their apparent lack of virtue. They're our countrymen, and we've got to find a way forward together, or not at all.

So it's quite possible to recognize Trump as a plague richly deserved by both the Republican and Democratic houses. Though that doesn't prevent me from earnestly hoping that the concerns driving the populist movement can be addressed without totally repudiating the current system. Revolutionaries are often correct about what ails us, but their suggested medicine is virtually always worse than the disease itself.

I decided to use this quote. A good part of it is addressed in my counter point about your longer previous post.

You know that I love you like a brother, Whiskey. And not just because I plan on punching the ticket on that standing offer to drink to excess, on you that you have repeatedly made.

But throughout your post, though you had many good points to make, there were a couple of jumps in logic that jumped off the page to me.

Every time we have let the people actually make the decisions, things have turned out exceedingly well, even in times of crisis. However, every time powerful special interests, or corporations, or business interests, or even powerful political machines have jumped into similar situations, it has proven catastrophic. For example the Civil War; tensions were manufactured, exploited for monetary gain, and the common people were incited to incredible blood lust, by special interests that posed as benevolent entities that had the people's best interest at heart. Control is control; no matter how sophisticated.

And why does exercising this kind of control on the American citizenry not work? It is analogous to the kid whose life is totally controlled by parents. What happens after the inevitable, drug addiction, acting out, etc. It is the same thing, the country slices it self into distinct pieces, and the schisms become so great there is a general collapse in the social goodwill of the population. Americans treat Americans badly.

Now if Scalia or you were to attribute the current crisis to the interests that promoted it fine. But the solution, if those interests back off, or are exposed, is bound to be very dynamic and conciliatory.

The next issue I had with logic had to do with your quoting Scalia on the devil. Granted if anyone is an expert, it should be Anton. But you went on to say he nailed it. And a big part of his quote was that "a majority of Americans believe in the devil." That so reminded me of my parents automatic reply to us when we stated that 'everyone was doing it!' The of course responded with the clichéd question, "Would you jump off the bridge if everyone was doing it?" Corny, but right on. The majority of Americans believe in UFO's, that dragons lived in medieval times, ghosts, spirits, mediums, and that whomever really isn't going to cum in your mouth! (Either as do-ee or doer.)

Also, I believe the majority of Americans have a mental illness of some sort, even though most are relatively minor. Add to that to all the obsolete customs and beliefs that don't any longer work in our society, (racism, sexism, etc.,) then I particularly don't care what a majority of people believe; or in turn believe that makes something true or false.

I want to make it clear, I don't have a problem with anyone who believes in a devil. Whether it be the model built in the Books of the Old Testament, or otherwise. As long as they believe in it truly to make more sense of the world. As soon as an individual uses it as an excuse for their bad behavior, or a justification for any behavior or thought that may be injurious to others, whether it be theirs or part of a dogma or belief system they maintain, I have a problem. In fact I will go a step further. For example the witch trials of Western Europe, and the Inquisition, in whole, are perfect examples of mass societal mental illness, and its derogatory effects when united under the leadership of a particular entity.

Again back to my counter point one : These are perfect examples of where things go wrong if any special interest, or entity, no matter how well intentioned, champions a cause, past the unaffected will of the people.

And that my friend is what the Supreme Court is for, is to act against this mechanism, among other things, when it is present.

[SPOILER ALERT : Belief or non-belief in a corporal devil is something I took from the bulk of Philosophy and Religion courses I took, (including some taught by priests in good standing,) supported by the sum of my life experiences before and after that seminal moment. I learned to look at the 'Biblical, corporal Devil' as a literary device built over 800 years by authors and scribes of Old Testament writings. Instead I attribute the works of 'the devil' to the darkest parts of human nature, relative to humanities 'dual nature.']
 
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Irish#1

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Take a look at the sorts of leaders that populist movements have historically supported: Putin, Berlusconi, Chavez, Hitler, etc.

Those people took advantage via economic conditions, far worse than what we have here in the U.S. I would also argue that we have a more sound foundation in place (particularly secondary education) that affords more to take the steps to get out of poverty if they just make the effort.

I don't disagree that we have a lot of unhappy campers. I think what we're seeing with Bernie and Donny leading is the populace is wanting someone who's not the normal politician have a shot at running the government and cutting waste rather than going through the same methods that have been used for decades. If either of these two are elected, I seriously doubt you will see major changes (good or bad). There's just too many Senators and US Reps to convince that radical changes need to be made.
 
B

Buster Bluth

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Inequality is not a bad thing.

It sure as shit can be.

I dare you to say "inequality is not a bad thing" in the room of a factory being closed down.

Scenario 1:
50% of the population makes $50,000
40% of the population makes $75,000
10% of the population makes $100,000

Scenario 2:
50% of the population makes $55,000
40% of the population makes $90,000
10% of the population makes $10,000,000

The equality argument would bitch and complain about Scenario 2 because it's less "fair" than Scenario 1, even though every class of people is better off.

Poll and poll show that Americans aren't signing up for "class warfare" and aren't jealous of the rich. The fairness angle is being misused here.

The line of thinking plays into the Bernie Sanders argument that rich people get rich by taking from the poor,

I think the sentiment, right or wrong, is more like "rich people get rich by breaking unions that provide high-paying jobs and moving the factories to Mexico and China where they can pay their workers 10% of the wage and increase their margins."

but that's not reality when you have an economic model that promotes growth.

I think the sentiment, right or wrong, is more like "we've had tremendous growth in this country and the wealth isn't trickling down quite like they said it would, wages are stagnant, the poor or vilified, and I'm looking at how my father raised six kids' expenses off a postman's salary and how my family can barely afford two kids because that job just isn't there any more and getting pissed."

It's not a bad thing if the rich get richer if their actions also mean the poor get richer.

I think the sentiment, right or wrong, is more like "99% of the economic gains in the the post-recession economy have gone to the 1%, so where exactly is this benefiting me?"
 
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wizards8507

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I think the sentiment, right or wrong, is more like "rich people get rich by breaking unions that provide high-paying jobs and moving the factories to Mexico and China where they can pay their workers 10% of the wage and increase their margins."
I'd like to pull on that thread, because I think it has the most meat on the bone. I agree with your assessment of the sentiment of the folks who support both Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders, but they back up legitimate sentiment with bad economics that will make the perceived problems worse. Taxes and regulations create an environment that's hostile to business, and hostility to business is hostility to job creation. As you point out, companies are going to hire foreign workers if it's cheaper and easier to do so.
 
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Buster Bluth

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Taxes and regulations create an environment that's hostile to business, and hostility to business is hostility to job creation.

Which is meaningless to the voter if his job is "created" in Mexico.

As you point out, companies are going to hire foreign workers if it's cheaper and easier to do so.

A factory worker in little ol' Toledo, OH hears that sentence as "a rich guy is going to replace you with a foreigner so long as he can."

And are you saying that if government got out of the way it would magically make Americans more cost competitive with Asian sweatshops?
 

pkt77242

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Which is meaningless to the voter if his job is "created" in Mexico.



A factory worker in little ol' Toledo, OH hears that sentence as "a rich guy is going to replace you with a foreigner so long as he can."

And are you saying that if government got out of the way it would magically make Americans more cost competitive with Asian sweatshops?

According to Wizards yes. They would just pay us a little more than the sweatshop workers (basically the cost of transporting with a small cut for the companies bottom line) and then we can all make $5 a day and be happy that we have a job.
 

woolybug25

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Not to switch gears here, but is anyone else a little annoyed with the Republican candidates all supporting blocking an appointment to Scalia's seat? As Bernie said today, it seams that they are all claiming to be strict "Constitutionalists" up until the point where they have to abide by it. The Constitution clearly lays out the process of how a justice is nominated and they are all trying to block that for no other reason other than giving their party a better chance of being who chooses it. There is literally no reason outside of that to delay this process for over a year like they are proposing.

Thoughts?
 

wizards8507

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Which is meaningless to the voter if his job is "created" in Mexico.

A factory worker in little ol' Toledo, OH hears that sentence as "a rich guy is going to replace you with a foreigner so long as he can."
...until Bernie Sanders comes along promising to tax the rich and increase regulations... making the economic environment even more hostile for American companies... meaning even more factories are going to shut down and move to Mexico.

And are you saying that if government got out of the way it would magically make Americans more cost competitive with Asian sweatshops?
A lot of caveats here. Not every job, no. But not every job is worth domesticating. We don't need to import zero-skill jobs so we're talking about semi-skilled and trade jobs. First, freight is expensive. Coordinating global logistics is expensive. Currency fluctuations are unpredictable (meaning expensive). So no, we'll probably never be price-competitive when it comes to base wages, but in total landed costs of finished goods there exists a break-even point where it's cheaper in total to pay an American worker a higher base wage than if you were to outsource, especially for products to be consumed domestically.

Not to switch gears here, but is anyone else a little annoyed with the Republican candidates all supporting blocking an appointment to Scalia's seat? As Bernie said today, it seams that they are all claiming to be strict "Constitutionalists" up until the point where they have to abide by it. The Constitution clearly lays out the process of how a justice is nominated and they are all trying to block that for no other reason other than giving their party a better chance of being who chooses it. There is literally no reason outside of that to delay this process for over a year like they are proposing.

Thoughts?
The Constitution actually isn't all that clear.

The President shall nominate, and, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.

Here's Chuck Schumer acting all outraged that George Bush would dare to nominate Supreme Court justices with 18 months left in his term.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/tkRZVE3aDm8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
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NorthDakota

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Not to switch gears here, but is anyone else a little annoyed with the Republican candidates all supporting blocking an appointment to Scalia's seat? As Bernie said today, it seams that they are all claiming to be strict "Constitutionalists" up until the point where they have to abide by it. The Constitution clearly lays out the process of how a justice is nominated and they are all trying to block that for no other reason other than giving their party a better chance of being who chooses it. There is literally no reason outside of that to delay this process for over a year like they are proposing.

Thoughts?

Im cool with it....only because it gives my guys a much better shot at picking the next guy. If it were the other way around, I'd be pretty peaved.
 

Armyirish47

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Not to switch gears here, but is anyone else a little annoyed with the Republican candidates all supporting blocking an appointment to Scalia's seat? As Bernie said today, it seams that they are all claiming to be strict "Constitutionalists" up until the point where they have to abide by it. The Constitution clearly lays out the process of how a justice is nominated and they are all trying to block that for no other reason other than giving their party a better chance of being who chooses it. There is literally no reason outside of that to delay this process for over a year like they are proposing.

Thoughts?

I'm blown away with the way they have approached this from the beginning. If I was in charge I would have trumpeted Scalia and declared that the party is dedicated to honoring his memory and legacy with a fitting replacement on day 1. On Sunday I would have had the morning talk shows and debates all reading biographies of the staunchest conservative judges with the biggest credentials on a Rubioesque loop. That way at least the argument is framed for favorable negotiations, the party isn't saddled with any obstructionist/hypocrisy problems and most importantly can be on the offensive.

Now they have given up the high ground, played into every caricature of the last 7 years, and the President can play with house money throughout the nomination process, which is assuredly on its way. It just reads like a staggering political miscalculation to me
 
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