Russia Invades Ukraine

Bishop2b5

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Since the US achieved independence, the only people who have faced anything resembling what's happening over there were people who (right or wrong) tried to secede.

Oddly enough, my buddy's parents are from Ukraine, Kharkov and Odessa. They hate Putin and hope Ukraine pulls it off but agree with him more or less that Russia and Ukraine belong together in one way or another based on history.

They are Jewish for what it's worth. God's Chosen could easily have a unique perspective from the Slavs.
Yes, Russia and Ukraine have a very long history of being associated either as part of the same country or Ukraine being controlled by Russia, but for the most part, the Ukrainians have hated the Russians for it and wanted to be a fully separate, sovereign country. They feel like Russia has been the abusive, controlling boyfriend that won't gtf away and leave them alone. At best it's been a peaceful, but unpleasant relationship with Russia treating Ukraine like a little brother to dominate and dictate to. I think they understand they're tied to Russia in many ways, but they're tired of it being an unbalanced, unequal relationship where Russia is always the dominant partner.
 

Rockin’Irish

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Yes, Russia and Ukraine have a very long history of being associated either as part of the same country or Ukraine being controlled by Russia, but for the most part, the Ukrainians have hated the Russians for it and wanted to be a fully separate, sovereign country. They feel like Russia has been the abusive, controlling boyfriend that won't gtf away and leave them alone. At best it's been a peaceful, but unpleasant relationship with Russia treating Ukraine like a little brother to dominate and dictate to. I think they understand they're tied to Russia in many ways, but they're tired of it being an unbalanced, unequal relationship where Russia is always the dominant partner.
I concur……my grandmother and her family immigrated from Ukraine to the USA and they were very clear that they did so due to how poorly Russia treated the people in their home country.
 

Bishop2b5

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There have been a number of articles in recent years (and especially the past two weeks) about Putin being a fascist, if not in name, certainly in actions. By almost any definition of the word, he certainly is. I don't know that he's really a communist as much as he's just a power hungry dictator, and fascism seems to describe his approach to governing more than anything else.

facism: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.
 

Cackalacky2.0

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This sounds nice but what practice effect will it have on the current situation?
IDK. Having Ukraine in the EU is likely a much better bargaining position. I’d expect that with a stable government and all its resources, Ukraine would be a huge boost to the EU and likewise for the Ukraine benefiting from the partnership? Is it going to affect Russias war? Maybe it’s more political statement at this point that one of Russias demands is Ukraine not join NATO and EU and they are saying FU to Putin.
 

Cackalacky2.0

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As unreliable as Russians munitions have been, the fighting at or near the power plants this is concerning to me.
 

Irish#1

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Think that’s the guy who killed an Isis fighter at over 3000 meters…one of if not the longest confirmed kills.
That's damn near two miles (1.86). Hope he targets the officers.
 
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Irish#1

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I's rather hear that he'd arrived in Russia --- there's a more significant target there for his skills --- probably several.

please pardon my lapse of good Catholic charitable thought here. ... but I would not weep ....
I'm with you OMM. Yet getting an opportunity would be considerably harder.
 

Irish#1

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I's rather hear that he'd arrived in Russia --- there's a more significant target there for his skills --- probably several.

please pardon my lapse of good Catholic charitable thought here. ... but I would not weep ....
Need to figure out a way to assassinate Putin and stop this shit. Either that or shut off Russia's access to everything and make them dependent on themselves.

I had suggested this on the first page and had several negative reactions. Has anyone that didn't like the idea changed their mind since this started? Asking for a friend.
 

Rogue219

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No clue what your issue with me is. Do you need a hug?
No issue. I should have used a font or something. My apologies.

I actually like that veterans and citizens are stepping up going over there to fight against Russians. I believe it to be true.

Seeing multiple people on boards and social media not believing anything about anything as it relates to a lot of pro Ukraine news, posts, videos, etc. If I didn't know any better, I think a few are Putin sympathizers. To each their own. We must respect everyone's opinions.
 

Old Man Mike

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Senator, please, get it together --- we absolutely DON'T want to put our boots on the ground over there.
We don't want DIRECT Leviathan/Bear punching at close quarters. A madman or even a utter ego-centered
moron with LOTS of military force of monstrous potency to fling around is not the guy to activate fully ---
even if you know you can drive him/Russia back to the Stone Age ultimately. This is not Iraq.

If you think that you're oh-so-irritated now about inflation and the state of the economy just start a fire war
with significant destructive use of Russian and US power in Europe. Even China trembles at that stupidity.
 

Irish#1

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Senator, please, get it together --- we absolutely DON'T want to put our boots on the ground over there.
We don't want DIRECT Leviathan/Bear punching at close quarters. A madman or even a utter ego-centered
moron with LOTS of military force of monstrous potency to fling around is not the guy to activate fully ---
even if you know you can drive him/Russia back to the Stone Age ultimately. This is not Iraq.

If you think that you're oh-so-irritated now about inflation and the state of the economy just start a fire war
with significant destructive use of Russian and US power in Europe. Even China trembles at that stupidity.
He's not talking about putting boots on the ground. Just getting those MIG's from Poland into the hands of the Ukrainians.
 

Old Man Mike

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He made allusion to a lot more than that with his "what we might do" comment. MIGs hardly match THAT implied threat.
 

notredomer23

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Why are 29 Migs such a red line, but thousands of javelins and stingers aren't? Serious question. Are 29 Migs really going to turn the tide that much?
 

Whiskeyjack

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Why are 29 Migs such a red line, but thousands of javelins and stingers aren't? Serious question. Are 29 Migs really going to turn the tide that much?
It's the difference between asking to borrow your neighbors hammer v. his Ferrari.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Except this hammer is super high tech and will actually do the work for you vs his ferrari barely having a working engine.
NATO is sticking with their script from the Cold War. Both sides constantly sent their proxies gear that could be used by infantry, but they didn't often send expensive high-tech stuff like fighter jets. MiGs obviously aren't cutting edge compared to an F-35, but they're still a helluva lot more expensive and threatening than shoulder-fired rockets. NATO's brass feels like having a member deploy that sort of materiel--even if it's not piloted by a NATO soldier--is a little too close to outright war.
 

calvegas04

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Ukraine is burying their people in mass graves while NATO continues to do minimal to help
 

ShamrockOnHelmet

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I’ve thought for a few days now that someone unexpected was going to rise here (I was thinking China might do it) and it could be the Saudis and UAE. They are apparently going to hike oil output. They could be attempting to seize the opportunity to permenantly displace russias place as a European supplier and garner global goodwill. It’s an interesting move, to be sure.

russia may or may not end up taking ukraine here, but it doesn’t seem there’s any path for the survival of the Russian economy. Wonder if planning is starting for a post-russia world by the big boys?
 
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Rack Em

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I’ve thought for a few days now that someone unexpected was going to rise here (I was thinking China might do it) and it could be the Saudis and UAE. They are apparently going to hike oil output. They could be attempting to seize the opportunity to permenantly displace russias place as a European supplier and garner global goodwill. It’s an interesting move, to be sure.

russia may or may not end up taking ukraine here, but it doesn’t seem there’s any path for the survival of the Russian economy. Wonder if planning is starting for a post-russia world by the big boys?
I think the world should be planning for a post-war Russia. It will take a long time for their economy to recover.

And, I'll call my shot right now, the US elites, in their infinite wisdom and benevolence, will continue to wag their finger at Russia and coin some stupid-ass term like "Axis of Evil" while demanding and globally berating Russia for not being a "democracy". They will piss off the Russian oligarchs and politicians, which will make it look like Putin was right about the West.

Their economy is going to be buried. FFS, just bring them into the West and create an ally instead of driving them into the arms of China and Iran. But, sadly, that will be too difficult for Lindsey Graham, John Bolton, and the entire Democratic Party who just want war at any cost.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I think the world should be planning for a post-war Russia. It will take a long time for their economy to recover.

And, I'll call my shot right now, the US elites, in their infinite wisdom and benevolence, will continue to wag their finger at Russia and coin some stupid-ass term like "Axis of Evil" while demanding and globally berating Russia for not being a "democracy". They will piss off the Russian oligarchs and politicians, which will make it look like Putin was right about the West.

Their economy is going to be buried. FFS, just bring them into the West and create an ally instead of driving them into the arms of China and Iran. But, sadly, that will be too difficult for Lindsey Graham, John Bolton, and the entire Democratic Party who just want war at any cost.
I read a decent argument on Twitter today that we rolled out the Marshall Plan for western Europe because we were already being pressured by the USSR. Russia didn't get the same treatment in 1992 because we weren't worried about China at the time, and assumed we'd be looking at many decades of easy peace as the global hegemon.

Now we're worried about China, so let's hope that motivates them to bring Russia back into the fold rather than risk turning them into interwar Germany.
 
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Old Man Mike

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The Ukraine disaster is about an easier, cheaper, and more secure (for Russia) transport corridor for heavy natural resource goods. Putin if he had more than two neurons to rub together should have stuck to the plan of undercutting Ukrainian governance in the eastern Ukrainian provinces, and then used the chaos to negotiate the corridor through the rest of Ukraine while leaving the actual pro-Ukraine part of Ukraine intact and without need to kill thousands of people with moronic moves.

Those two eastern provinces WERE rallying against central government and would probably truly "welcome their Russian friends as liberators" allowing Putin to install puppet governments in the two "new states." (note that Russia has already long recognized their "national status.") Why are those two "different"? I'm going to guess that this is the result of an old Soviet plan long before Putin. The Soviets took areas which looked potentially strategic and removed most of the native populace and replaced them with persons not native to the areas, including many Russians. Both Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan are prominantly structured this way (Samarkand being about 50% Russian citizens) and guess what?: that's where most of the natural resources are. Those eastern Ukrainian provinces were ripe for "revolution." But because Putin is either a powerful buffoon, or a not quite so powerful politician, he went full-stupid and decided to grab it all. Thus the sanctions as his reward.

Will these sanctions "destroy the Russian economy?" Well, no. They will constrict it temporarily and hurt the population, and even the oligarchs, but destroy it? No. Unless Russia was bombed back to the Stone Age, its economy will persist and grow over time. Why? Because it is a resources Giant. As long as the rest of the world keeps chasing technological growth as fast as can be possible (no one should doubt the global economy's intent there) the racers will desire Oil, Gas, liquid fuels, other oil products, coal even, Iron, Titanium, Aluminum, rare metals, fiber (a la lumber), and a lot of things that I no longer remember from studies done before I got old. ... and no, you can't just go to another "store" and buy them --- not at the speed and competition that the global economy demands.

So Russia's economy will rebound. Germany will still want {badly) the energy resources. Russia was on the path to a major upgrade in its economy unless something stupid happened. Putin happened. When he's gone, the Russian economy will join the Globe again.
 
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