Rumored Violations

[koonja]

I think the fact that DD is begging for an explanation at least shows it's extremely likely that he's willing to cooperate, and I bet the others are too.

I see no way the University handled this correctly. BK is pissed, the players are pissed, if the ARE guilty and expelled, the school fucked them. If they're not guilty, they fucked them.

The fact that people are defending the University at this point means there's nothing worth reading here so I'm out, lol.

 

[JughedJones]

Again, you have no evidence to suggest they're not doing it right. That's my point. You criticized others for baseless claims but turn around and Kay blame on a university without a shred of evidence or insight into the process... I don't mean that in an argumentative way, rather just pointing out the similar flaw.

We have no scale to base criticism on other than "it's taking forever therefore it's wrong" were missing a lot of pieces to the puzzle

Well sir, I respectfully submit that your point is full of shite.

I criticized others for attacking individuals with baseless accusations.

I blamed an institution that has dragged its feet while kids wait in limbo, because of feckless, mean-spirited, impotent, and hypocritical behavior. All of which I can prove by pointing to their actions during this process.

I think it important to note that I have not insisted that any of these kids are innocent or even 'not-guilty,' merely that they should have either been allowed to figure out what school they're going to next, or get on with their lives at Notre Dame by now.

If the University didn't have enough evidence to administer swift judgement, they shouldn't have held the presser to begin with. Let alone let it drag on this long. How anyone can disagree with this is a mystery to me.

 

[Irish Insanity]

I think the fact that DD is begging for an explanation at least shows it's extremely likely that he's willing to cooperate, and I bet the others are too.

I see no way the University handled this correctly. BK is pissed, the players are pissed, if the ARE guilty and expelled, the school fucked them. If they're not guilty, they fucked them.

The fact that people are defending the University at this point means there's nothing worth reading here so I'm out, lol.

The majority of your post was great, then you ended it with a lie. Man it started out so well.

 

[DogDaysIrish]

Well sir, I respectfully submit that your point is full of shite.

I criticized others for attacking individuals with baseless accusations.

I blamed an institution that has dragged its feet while kids wait in limbo, because of feckless, mean-spirited, impotent, and hypocritical behavior. All of which I can prove by pointing to their actions during this process.

I think it important to note that I have not insisted that any of these kids are innocent or even 'not-guilty,' merely that they should have either been allowed to figure out what school they're going to next, or get on with their lives at Notre Dame by now.

If the University didn't have enough evidence to administer swift judgement, they shouldn't have held the presser to begin with. Let alone let it drag on this long. How anyone can disagree with this is a mystery to me.

spot on... Well said, Brah.

 

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

 

[JughedJones]

Alright guys.

Thanks for letting me talk about this with ya'll. Nobody else understands my weirdo obsession!

I'm going to go drink way too much whiskey and insist I'm right while strangers nod.

Maybe I'll find a U$C fan to yell at?

 

[koonja]

https://twitter.com/keitharnold/status/514903830262472704

 

[Pachuco]

Alright guys.

Thanks for letting me talk about this with ya'll. Nobody else understands my weirdo obsession!

I'm going to go drink way too much whiskey and insist I'm right while strangers nod.

Maybe I'll find a U$C fan to yell at?

Glad to. The point of all this shouldn't be to war with each other.

Look, we are all disappointed by the process that has unfolded, many of us legitimately concerned about the well-being of the students involved after following them for years as fans, many of us concerned about the community of Notre Dame beyond the image and pr, and all of which leads to passionate opinions and a desire for accountability.

Every scenario is different.

I can personally testify that my experience with the administration was tested in the past, and Notre Dame wanted only the best outcome for me as a student and person.

I love Notre Dame, and will defend it, even though I may criticize it at times, because it had my back when I needed it, and it protected my privacy.

Obviously, this is a different, much more public scenario, but until proven otherwise, I will continue to defend my University - students, faculty, and administration - until ALL the facts have been released regarding this very serious investigation.

With that said, thanks for the discussion as well. I hope something good comes out of all of this, even if it may seem bleak at the moment.

Paz.

 

[frankygoes69]

Alright guys.

Thanks for letting me talk about this with ya'll. Nobody else understands my weirdo obsession!

I'm going to go drink way too much whiskey and insist I'm right while strangers nod.

Maybe I'll find a U$C fan to yell at?

This person has provided the most informative news to date. Yes sir, I am nodding to you!

Also, there is some stuff happening. And my friend said that they heard from a source close to the situation (not the one mentioned) that they knew of a formal board of which no one really knows about and they mentioned something that may or may not happen ever, or within the next day to 1,000,000 days.

I believe that it could or could not break at any point between now and never. I would also like to yell in the face of a u$c fan for general purpose and because I hate u$c!!!!

Some more stuff to follow. Stay tuned...

 

[Circa]

https://twitter.com/keitharnold/status/514903830262472704

I may have been absent on this day, but has anyone subjugated the possibility that It could be 1 professor causing all this turmoil? One wrench in the gear of academic football stability and they aren't backing off their stance!?

"The story of a man named Job"

"To try to understand the book and its answer, let us take note of three statements which everyone in the book, and most of the readers, would like to be able to believe:

"God is all-powerful and causes everything that happens in the world. Nothing happens without His will it.
God is just and fair, and stands for people getting what they deserve, so that the good prosper and the wicked are punished.
Job is a good person".

 

[Wild Bill]

Can't believe we're almost at 8,000 post with no news yet.

Would you give it all up, cali - the vcash and all the vbooze, vblow and vpuss that comes with it - if it meant the boys were reinstated immediately?

 

[Irish8248]

Well sir, I respectfully submit that your point is full of shite.

I criticized others for attacking individuals with baseless accusations.

I blamed an institution that has dragged its feet while kids wait in limbo, because of feckless, mean-spirited, impotent, and hypocritical behavior. All of which I can prove by pointing to their actions during this process.

I think it important to note that I have not insisted that any of these kids are innocent or even 'not-guilty,' merely that they should have either been allowed to figure out what school they're going to next, or get on with their lives at Notre Dame by now.

If the University didn't have enough evidence to administer swift judgement, they shouldn't have held the presser to begin with. Let alone let it drag on this long. How anyone can disagree with this is a mystery to me.

Not to keep this going, but I would like to see the proof on this. Since we don't know any facts, there aren't any leaks, and we have no insight into this committee process or ones in the past to gauge it's train wreck approach to this situation, I find it hard to believe you can prove this without using many assumptions and inferences built on assumptions and inferences

 

[Golden Glory]

How about some news on the situation.

Notre Dame's five suspended players scheduled to conclude hearings next week - Elkhart Truth

Notre Dame's five suspended players scheduled to conclude hearings next week

The end of Notre Dame’s ongoing academic probe is in sight and the five players involved will likely know their fate just before Stanford arrives at Notre Dame Stadium.


Rachel Terlep
Posted on Sept. 23, 2014 at 12:57 p.m.

The end is in sight for Notre Dame’s ongoing academic probe.

Head football coach Brian Kelly said he was told — if all goes to plan — honesty committee hearings for KeiVarae Russell, DaVaris Daniels, Ishaq Williams, Kendall Moore and Eilar Hardy will wrap up next week. The five players are at the center of Notre Dame’s academic fraud investigations.

“Friday of last week, I was informed that the academic committee has been formed officially and that they will — if all things move in the manner that they’re hoping and that they’re able to get through all of the information — that the five student-athletes will get their hearings concluded by the end of next week,” Kelly said Tuesday, Sept. 23.

If that timeline is accurate, the five players should know their fate before the Oct. 4 home bout with No. 16 Stanford (2-1). Kelly has stated in the past that if any of the five players are cleared, they’ll be eligible to play immediately.

It’s been a long and arduous process for the university, the football program and fans. The school said the Office of General Counsel launched an investigation immediately after being presented evidence of academic misconduct July 29.

Russell, Daniels, Williams and Moore have been sidelined since Aug. 15, while Hardy was suspended Aug. 28 — the day Kelly announced the university had concluded investigations. The players are expected to miss their fourth straight game this season.

When asked if he had an opinion on the investigation’s timeline, Kelly flashed a brief smile and said, “I don't have an opinion, and I really wouldn't want to share it publicly."

Kelly said Notre Dame is wading through uncharted territory and that he’s talked with athletic director Jack Swarbrick about improving a process like this one.

”It's a very complicated situation, obviously,“ Kelly said. ”There are a lot of pieces here. There are NCAA implications, certainly. We're probably going down a path that has never gone before, so there are things there.“

When Notre Dame first announced the academic investigation, university president Rev. Jon Jenkins, C.S.C., acknowledged the possibility of the football program vacating wins, if necessary.

On Tuesday, Kelly said, as far as he knows, the university isn’t traveling down that road.

”I do not have any knowledge of vacating wins or NCAA implications,“ he said. ”I have not been informed of that, and whether that is impending, I think I would have been informed of all those things, if we were in that kind of I am immediacy, if you will.

“What I do know is that a committee of this fashion has not, in my understanding, been set up before. So that was my reference to, we're going down a new road here, relative to the five players that are currently suspended.“

 

[JughedJones]

Not to keep this going, but I would like to see the proof on this. Since we don't know any facts, there aren't any leaks, and we have no insight into this committee process or ones in the past to gauge it's train wreck approach to this situation, I find it hard to believe you can prove this without using many assumptions and inferences built on assumptions and inferences

Oh really?

Would you like me to point you to the press conference that started this mess?


Would you like me to point you to the month of silence that followed?

Would you like me to point you to the hint from Jenkins that it goes so very deep that we mere mortals can't understand?


Give me a break. Our Lady means more than this. We've made bigger promises than this.

We should expect more than this.

 

[BGIF]

Oh really?

Would you like me to point you to the press conference that started this mess?


Would you like me to point you to the month of silence that followed?

Would you like me to point you to the hint from Jenkins that it goes so very deep that we mere mortals can't understand?


Give me a break. Our Lady means more than this. We've made bigger promises than this.

We should expect more than this.

Deja vu, all over again?

Isn't this the same thread where you earned a temporary ban for your repeated expressions of righteous indignation over a press conference that was held in response to NCAA leaks that had disparaged a number of ND students?

 

[kmoose]

I criticized others for attacking individuals with baseless accusations.

No you didn't. You criticized me for asking if it wasn't a possibility, that the Danielses were crying wolf. A possibility.

A couple of things here:

1. The University has NOT accused any athlete of cheating, so the whole "burden of proof" argument is kind of premature.

2. As has been pointed out about half a million times; if you are not involved in the process, at the University, then you really don't know what is, or isn't happening. Some guy who claims that he texts with some anonymous player is NOT a credible source.

As much as it sucks, we all just have to wait for the process to play out, and the facts are known. Then, we can all decide for ourselves how to think about what transpired.

 

[Irish#1]

Why do you write "we have no idea why this has taken so long"?

Didn't Brian just tell us why?

It's because, procedurally, the school always appoints the Academic Committee the first month of each school year, i.e., not the first week.

If you are an ND grad, you of course know it is virtually impossible to ever get that University to change any procedure.

I STILL can't believe they continue to hold Junior Parents Weekend over the coldest and snowiest weekend of the year.

Head football coach Brian Kelly said he was told — if all goes to plan


Because we haven't heard specifics. Apparently BK doesn't even know. He's on record as stating (about three weeks ago) that this was moving very close to a resolution. Look at his last statement. He's hedging. There are only a handful of people that really know the details of what the students are accused of doing and what the entire process is to get this resolved. Up to now, it's all been speculation and many of those on this board with close ties to the program have seen their predictions and/or opinions on how things work be totally wrong.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

This never-ending circus is occurring because something happened that's not in accordance with Notre Dame's Honor Code, a document that the university posts openly on its website.

But therein lies the rub.

The document is posted online. So are the guidelines, violation reports and sanction process. But what's the point of all that efficiency if the university won't get out of its own way and utilize it?

Keith said it best.

 

[IrishLion]

#keepthefaith
#scabbardthatpitchfork

Wait... do they make pitchfork scabbards?

 

[phgreek]

Just a couple points.

• The athletic department did not notify the NCAA. The school did. ND is not looking at this as an athletic issue. They see this as a student issue. As the students are atheletes, they informed the NCAA.
• They pulled the 4 from the team as to CYA in the case they are proven at fault. If they played, wins could be vacatated and bowl ban could happen. It sucks, but they are doing the right thing for both the football team and the university.
• From the intel we have, and the quality of intel we have, I unfortunately don't see them being found innocent. I would love if they are, but I'm tempering my expectations. I have not found them guilty, but I do trust the info from a few key posters.
  [*]I'd also point out that it's better to throw yourself under the bus, then let the bus run over you. Better to self report than have a breaking deadspin or yahoo story come out. Shows integrity and intelligence in my opinion. We are ND, and we do hold ourselves to a different standard.
• Hope for the best, be prepared for the worst. Support the young men playing or suspended regardless.

I get what you are saying...I even understand the decision to hold out the players, but the TIME issue is what makes that bad.

My issue is that there are degrees of throwing yourself under the bus. I believe in full disclosure, but I also believe in doing so in a way that is balanced, providing all information but not providing value commentary unless you think it MITIGATES the situation from your organization's perspective...and then you only do that on key issues. In any organization...What you do to recruiting and morale by going overboard is far more damaging than dealing with the issues of human frailty.

...let me put it another way. EVERYONE understands that people get caught up in success, and can take shortcuts...while we do not condone it, we certainly understand it across all walks of life. When you get to a situation where organizational leadership's actions hurt the organization beyond what is understood to be reasonable, those inside it don't understand that. Now you are in a position where you are trying to rehab your image inside and out...and that never works real well.

You have got to be careful the message you put out is that we won't tolerate shortcuts, but we certainly will not be inviting regulators to treat us more harshly than is the norm.

Throw in the Dynamic of an NCAA desperately looking for a reason to appear "on it" and I worry Notre Dame's approach (whatever the hell it is) could be self destructive...and as a leader, if you allow that to happen...well thats not good.

Not saying I know what is going on, but when Fr. Jenkins opens with discussions of vacating wins...etc. Makes ya wander what in the hell the end game was. Seems like it was something on the order of ...we will skewer ourselves with a butter knife before the NCAA slaps our wrist...I don't think that is necessary or prudent. As an NCAA regulator I'd like to see what punishment you hand out, and what process changes will be implemented to safeguard against re-occurrence...while the NCAA is a bit of a wildcard, if I'm a NCAA regulator with some competence...you only make my job harder when you set mob expectations of outcomes like "vacating wins".

As well, when the internal disciplinary process itself appears punitive before judgement is rendered, thats really bad.

This stuff is simple organizational practice...and its disconcerting to see what appears to be bad practice from out here.

I have always been a defender of all things ND, and over the last 10 years the haters have had some cannon fodder for sure...And maybe this is far different than it appears...hoping it ends soon....and the actions all make sense.

 

[GoIrish41]

I get what you are saying...I even understand the decision to hold out the players, but the TIME issue is what makes that bad.

My issue is that there are degrees of throwing yourself under the bus. I believe in full disclosure, but I also believe in doing so in a way that is balanced, providing all information but not providing value commentary unless you think it MITIGATES the situation from your organization's perspective...and then you only do that on key issues. In any organization...What you do to recruiting and morale by going overboard is far more damaging than dealing with the issues of human frailty.

...let me put it another way. EVERYONE understands that people get caught up in success, and can take shortcuts...while we do not condone it, we certainly understand it across all walks of life. When you get to a situation where organizational leadership's actions hurt the organization beyond what is understood to be reasonable, those inside it don't understand that. Now you are in a position where you are trying to rehab your image inside and out...and that never works real well.

You have got to be careful the message you put out is that we won't tolerate shortcuts, but we certainly will not be inviting regulators to treat us more harshly than is the norm.

Throw in the Dynamic of an NCAA desperately looking for a reason to appear "on it" and I worry Notre Dame's approach (whatever the hell it is) could be self destructive...and as a leader, if you allow that to happen...well thats not good.

Not saying I know what is going on, but when Fr. Jenkins opens with discussions of vacating wins...etc. Makes ya wander what in the hell the end game was. Seems like it was something on the order of ...we will skewer ourselves with a butter knife before the NCAA slaps our wrist...I don't think that is necessary or prudent. As an NCAA regulator I'd like to see what punishment you hand out, and what process changes will be implemented to safeguard against re-occurrence...while the NCAA is a bit of a wildcard, if I'm a NCAA regulator with some competence...you only make my job harder when you set mob expectations of outcomes like "vacating wins".

As well, when the internal disciplinary process itself appears punitive before judgement is rendered, thats really bad.

This stuff is simple organizational practice...and its disconcerting to see what appears to be bad practice from out here.

I have always been a defender of all things ND, and over the last 10 years the haters have had some cannon fodder for sure...And maybe this is far different than it appears...hoping it ends soon....and the actions all make sense.

The next time something like this happens and they figure it out in a month or a month and a half, will ND be accused by the haters of ND of zipping through the process just to put the issue behind them, or in the case of innocence getting players back on the field? The length of time this is taking is setting a very problematic precident, IMO.

 

[phgreek]

The next time something like this happens and they figure it out in a month or a month and a half, will ND be accused by the haters of ND of zipping through the process just to put the issue behind them, or in the case of innocence getting players back on the field? The length of time this is taking is setting a very problematic precident, IMO.

...I think so. But haters kinda come out no matter what. I think the true measure we can live with is do the devotees feel like it makes sense....right now I don't know many folks who think this makes sense from hater to domer.

 

[Cackalacky]

Sounds like from BK that this appears to be a new process and the committee have not been convened before and these actions have not been taken before. Sounds like ND is doing its process and that vacating wins is not on the table.

 

[wizards8507]

Sounds like from BK that this appears to be a new process and the committee have not been convened before and these actions have not been taken before.

We think he means that he's never had one of his student-athletes go through this process. I know with 100% certainty that these committees convene all the time. They're rare, since most students confess when they're caught cheating (see Everett Golson), and confession circumvents then need for an Honesty Committee.

 

[GoIrish41]

...I think so. But haters kinda come out no matter what. I think the true measure we can live with is do the devotees feel like it makes sense....right now I don't know many folks who think this makes sense from hater to domer.

I completely agree -- this makes sense to nobody except the hard core ND admin apologists, IMHO. Maybe something will come to light to enlighten us all, and show that they were right afterall. I just cannot think of any scenario where a process for such an accusation could possibly take this long. I fear that the length of time is not only an annoyance to players, fans and coaches, but will also become a standard for how long it takes to resolve such matters in the future. That isn't good for anyone.

 

[Cackalacky]

We think he means that he's never had one of his student-athletes go through this process. I know with 100% certainty that these committees convene all the time. They're rare, since most students confess when they're caught cheating (see Everett Golson), and confession circumvents then need for an Honesty Committee.

I understand that for regular students but the use of words like uncharted, new, not been done before relative to the 5 players, all echo that this process has not in fact been done before and the ND is really doing its due dilligence regarding compliance at school and the NCAA.

 

[ND NYC]

so...this is to be 5 hearings...one for each guy....not one hearing for all 5 guys correct?

 

[Cali_domer]

so...this is to be 5 hearings...one for each guy....not one hearing for all 5 guys correct?

 

[kmoose]

We think he means that he's never had one of his student-athletes go through this process. I know with 100% certainty that these committees convene all the time. They're rare, since most students confess when they're caught cheating (see Everett Golson), and confession circumvents then need for an Honesty Committee.

Huh?

 

[IrishLax]

so...this is to be 5 hearings...one for each guy....not one big one for all 5 guys correct?

Who knows. At this point, I imagine it goes something like: