Rumored Violations

[koonja]

wow, just listened to power hour and they thought that Hardy would have replaced collinsworth instead of shumate...

What stands out to me there, is that Shummate is a JR and our true 3rd team safety. Damn shame the kid's never been able to put it together.

 

[#1rish]

What stands out to me there, is that Shummate is a JR and our true 3rd team safety. Damn shame the kid's never been able to put it together.

Maybe it's the Ironman in me, but I think once he gets down his communication with Redfield he'll be a lot more effective. I like how BK made it a point of not just giving up on him and putting Farley in.

 

[koonja]

Maybe it's the Ironman in me, but I think once he gets down his communication with Redfield he'll be a lot more effective. I like how BK made it a point of not just giving up on him and putting Farley in.

Yeah, I'm fine with sticking with him, just disappointed it took an injury and suspension for him to finally start as a junior.

 

[RDU Irish]

The University should have an expedited process for all students involved in any activity who are adversely affected by delays in the decision process. These students are being punished without true due process.

Welcome to America. If this was within the legal system, they would all go broke paying their lawyers to defend themselves with no recourse for restitution if found innocent. Or worse, end up in jail because they had shoddy representation.

Seems like a Kangaroo Court to me, who knows what type of "ruling" will be made until it is actually done.

 

[Emcee77]

Its hilarious that these people are saying guys are clear. As of yesterday at 4pm, none of them had met with the council. So how can they be clear? DD was def not in a film session yesterday.

The BangBang group is a total cess pool. I just have a hard time understanding some of the stuff that goes on in that group.

Haha I know, it seems like an obvious re-circulation of prior rumors.

My guess is that we will hear that the honor code proceedings are taking place before we hear that anyone has been cleared, right? Like, we will hear that KVR has a hearing on a particular date, and then we will wait for news of the result on or after that date. That's what I'm expecting but anyone who knows more about the procedure than I do, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Wingman Ray]

Just saying if KVR is innocent, he needs to sue ND for all he can. This is silly and without merit. It doesnt take weeks to review data to see if someone cheated or not. Honor code my ass. Either he is guilty which case you state it and on with the show, or say you dont have enough evidence and hes innocent. If the data is there, which is all they will have, they should be able to have a decision by now. If Im Kelly, Im raising all kids of cain about dragging this out.

I understand ND rising above but this just seems excessive. Seems like there are too many people of influence that wants to see the football program suffer. They seem to forget that without football, ND probably wouldnt even be open today.

"When was the last time 100,000 people showed up to watch a kid do a damn science experiement?" - James Caan "The Program"

 

[NDdomer2]

Just saying if KVR is innocent, he needs to sue ND for all he can. This is silly and without merit. It doesnt take weeks to review data to see if someone cheated or not. Honor code my ass. Either he is guilty which case you state it and on with the show, or say you dont have enough evidence and hes innocent. If the data is there, which is all they will have, they should be able to have a decision by now. If Im Kelly, Im raising all kids of cain about dragging this out.

I understand ND rising above but this just seems excessive. Seems like there are too many people of influence that wants to see the football program suffer. They seem to forget that without football, ND probably wouldnt even be open today.

"When was the last time 100,000 people showed up to watch a kid do a damn science experiement?" - James Caan "The Program"

he wouldn't be innocent. the current info is that he was aware and didn't say anything, which is against the student honor code. He may not be guilty, but he isn't innocent. His suit against the university would have no merit if that is the case.

 

[gkIrish]

Just saying if KVR is innocent, he needs to sue ND for all he can. This is silly and without merit. It doesnt take weeks to review data to see if someone cheated or not. Honor code my ass. Either he is guilty which case you state it and on with the show, or say you dont have enough evidence and hes innocent. If the data is there, which is all they will have, they should be able to have a decision by now. If Im Kelly, Im raising all kids of cain about dragging this out.

I understand ND rising above but this just seems excessive. Seems like there are too many people of influence that wants to see the football program suffer. They seem to forget that without football, ND probably wouldnt even be open today.

"When was the last time 100,000 people showed up to watch a kid do a damn science experiement?" - James Caan "The Program"

I understand your frustration but your post just reeks of someone who is bitter about a good player being out. Is there any particular reason you mention KVR but not the others? Sue Notre Dame for following the appropriate procedure? If you don't think they had enough evidence to take the action they have taken so far, you are naive.

 

[koonja]

I understand your frustration but your post just reeks of someone who is bitter about a good player being out. Is there any particular reason you mention KVR but not the others? Sue Notre Dame for following the appropriate procedure? If you don't think they had enough evidence to take the action they have taken so far, you are naive.

I agree with everything you said, but to be fair, we have no idea what evidence specifically indictes KVR. Not saying it should/shouldn't be questioned, but for all we know, his only tie to this could be that it was his ex-GF. Considering none of the rumors have come true so far, I don't think it's wise to assume he's innocent, but also not wise to say he's definately guilty of something, even if it's as little as being 'quiet'.


I guess my point is, calling him naive isn't fair, cause it's not like any of the rumors have come true, so why assume the rumor that he went quiet is actually true.

 

[gkIrish]

I agree with everything you said, but to be fair, we have no idea what evidence specifically indictes KVR. Not saying it should/shouldn't be questioned, but for all we know, his only tie to this could be that it was his ex-GF. Considering none of the rumors have come true so far, I don't think it's wise to assume he's innocent, but also not wise to say he's definately guilty of something, even if it's as little as being 'quiet'.


I guess my point is, calling him naive isn't fair, cause it's not like any of the rumors have come true, so why assume the rumor that he went quiet is actually true.

I just don't understand why people think Notre Dame is somehow purposely slowing this process down. That makes no sense whatsoever. There is a procedure. It can't be changed just because the people involved are on the football team. This is an academic matter not a football matter.

There are probably dozens of other non-athlete students whose cases are pending right now. I'm sure they have been suspended from their extracurricular activities too. Why should the football players' hearing be held before the students whose cases are pending for a longer period of time?

Without knowing anything else, the only logical assumption that can be made is that Notre Dame had enough evidence to take the action they have taken up to this point. Whether he turns out to be guilty or innocent does not mean the evidence they had was insufficient to take this action.

 

[Wingman Ray]

I was mentioning KVR because looks like he may be (with the exception of DD) the only potential pro player there and this would definately affect his draft stock whether innocent or guilty. DD would be perceived as a problem person since this would be a second incident within a year.

Just saying it should be done by now. Just pisses me off because these bowtie geeks are happy to cash their paychecks that ND football helps keep coming but they want to harpoon the players at any opportunity. And am I wrong to say that I thought I saw that Admin clown that was so tough on ND players still with the university?

 

[IRISHDODGER]

I think a lot of the frustration in this case boils down to wanting to be scUM in the last matchup for the foreseeable future. With Daniels, Russell & Williams back, our chances increase. Even w/ one of those three, our chances increase. Right now, I look at the scUM game as a tossup. Get any or all of those three players back, and my confidence increases.

 

[Wingman Ray]

I just don't understand why people think Notre Dame is somehow purposely slowing this process down. That makes no sense whatsoever. There is a procedure. It can't be changed just because the people involved are on the football team. This is an academic matter not a football matter.

There are probably dozens of other non-athlete students whose cases are pending right now. I'm sure they have been suspended from their extracurricular activities too. Why should the football players' hearing be held before the students whose cases are pending for a longer period of time?

Without knowing anything else, the only logical assumption that can be made is that Notre Dame had enough evidence to take the action they have taken up to this point. Whether he turns out to be guilty or innocent does not mean the evidence they had was insufficient to take this action.

Dozens of non athlete students do not make the university millions of dollars every year. Sorry but fact is that the ones that make all the money get perks. Admission for example is one of the perks.

I just find it very hard to believe that something couldnt have been done by now. It shouldnt take weeks to look at info and say yes or no.

As for the honor code, that's a joke.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Dozens of non athlete students do not make the university millions of dollars every year. Sorry but fact is that the ones that make all the money get perks. Admission for example is one of the perks.

I just find it very hard to believe that something couldnt have been done by now. It shouldnt take weeks to look at info and say yes or no.

As for the honor code, that's a joke.

For real?

 

[gkIrish]

I was mentioning KVR because looks like he may be (with the exception of DD) the only potential pro player there and this would definately affect his draft stock whether innocent or guilty. DD would be perceived as a problem person since this would be a second incident within a year.

Maybe DD is a problem person. You ever think about that?

Just saying it should be done by now. Just pisses me off because these bowtie geeks are happy to cash their paychecks that ND football helps keep coming but they want to harpoon the players at any opportunity. And am I wrong to say that I thought I saw that Admin clown that was so tough on ND players still with the university?

As has been discussed ad nauseam, there is a panel (that includes students) that review these matters. You can't just force those students to change their schedules to accommodate the football team.

FWIW my source has indicated there has been a definitive decision on at least 2 of the players. Seems inconsistent with all the other rumors out there and the fact that the honor code process isn't complete so I don't want to expand any further considering the info is probably wrong.

 

[koonja]

I just don't understand why people think Notre Dame is somehow purposely slowing this process down. That makes no sense whatsoever. There is a procedure. It can't be changed just because the people involved are on the football team. This is an academic matter not a football matter.

There are probably dozens of other non-athlete students whose cases are pending right now. I'm sure they have been suspended from their extracurricular activities too. Why should the football players' hearing be held before the students whose cases are pending for a longer period of time?

Without knowing anything else, the only logical assumption that can be made is that Notre Dame had enough evidence to take the action they have taken up to this point. Whether he turns out to be guilty or innocent does not mean the evidence they had was insufficient to take this action.

I get that they're football players and therefore should not be treated any different. But I don't personally believe that's a good practice. If these any of these guys are innocent or believe to potentially be innocent, their situation should be hurried if dragging it out compromises their future profession (Ishaq, DD, KVR).

And I'm not saying this because I love ND football. If there's any other students that are being forcefully held out of extras (I can't think of any ND-related examples, but at my school, I'd say 'career day' or 'Intern fest'), I feel they're getting screwed as well and should get 'special treatment', aka, hurry up and meet to decide.

I think the current timeline/decision process is not flexible enough, and should be adjusted (and hopefully will be) before it causes a bigger issue than the one currently on hand (what if they were 'suspected of cheating' at the beginning of June!?').

 

[SoDakDomer]

It's getting to the point that if these guys do get reinstated how ready can they be to help after missing so much time? They haven't practiced since when, August 15th? How much stuff have we put in since then? I understand that they have been working out, but havent tackled someone in 15 days? By now best case scenario is they get 3 practices.

 

[Emcee77]

I just don't understand why people think Notre Dame is somehow purposely slowing this process down. That makes no sense whatsoever. There is a procedure. It can't be changed just because the people involved are on the football team. This is an academic matter not a football matter.

There are probably dozens of other non-athlete students whose cases are pending right now. I'm sure they have been suspended from their extracurricular activities too. Why should the football players' hearing be held before the students whose cases are pending for a longer period of time?

Without knowing anything else, the only logical assumption that can be made is that Notre Dame had enough evidence to take the action they have taken up to this point. Whether he turns out to be guilty or innocent does not mean the evidence they had was insufficient to take this action.

This. All of this.

Some people seem to think that there is some administrator with king-like powers who will arbitrarily decide these players' fates. It's not like that. It's more akin to a legal process. There is a procedure, which ND is following, and it can't be done overnight.

 

[koonja]

This. All of this.

Some people seem to think that there is some administrator with king-like powers who will arbitrarily decide these players' fates. It's not like that. It's more akin to a legal process. There is a procedure, which ND is following, and it can't be done overnight.

I get that. But I think it needs to be changed to allow flexibility. Not every student or student athlete is the same. This will eventually screw someone over and get the University embarassed, sued, and fuck with a kid's life.

 

[wizards8507]

I get that they're football players and therefore should not be treated any different. But I don't personally believe that's a good practice. If these any of these guys are innocent or believe to potentially be innocent, their situation should be hurried if dragging it out compromises their future profession (Ishaq, DD, KVR).

You have the order of things wrong. This isn't a situation where they're believed to be innocent and just haven't been reinstated yet. The delay is in the figuring out whether they are, in fact, innocent. Once the determination is made, then the delays will disappear.

Not this:
1. We believe they're innocent.
2. Delay to officially clear them.
3. Clear them.

This:
1. Delay to determine whether they're innocent.
2. We believe they're innocent.
3. Clear them.

Also, this isn't a delay in the sense of "period of time in which the process has stopped," it's a delay in the sense that "it takes a long time to go through the process." It's not like they're not doing anything, it's just that the stuff they ARE doing takes time.

And I'm not saying this because I love ND football. If there's any other students that are being forcefully held out of extras (I can't think of any ND-related examples, but at my school, I'd say 'career day' or 'Intern fest'), I feel they're getting screwed as well and should get 'special treatment', aka, hurry up and meet to decide.

There's a big difference. It's not just about the individuals, it's about the team. This needs to be a fine-tooth comb type thing because if they're cleared without 100% certainty, there are potential major consequences (i.e. vacating wins) that have nothing to do with the individuals themselves.

I get that. But I think it needs to be changed to allow flexibility. Not every student or student athlete is the same. This will eventually screw someone over and get the University embarassed, sued, and fuck with a kid's life.

Disagree 100%. Even if varsity athletes had a process that was COMPLETELY different from a "regular student," there would still be a process. Deviating from the process is how shit goes very wrong. Then you're into "lack of institutional control" territory. Defined policies and procedures and adherence to those policies and procedures is the sign of an organization that has its shit together, whether it's a football team, a company, a family, or anything else.

 

[connor_in]

Everyone getting ansy or worked up needs to sing "Soft Kitty" 3 times, drink something without caffeine, and step away from the keyboard for a couple hours.

 

[IrishLax]

I understand both sides of the coin here.

First, I stand by everything critical I said about ND's initial handling of this situation from the moment they were first alerted to a player possibly cheating until that disaster of a press conference.

Second, I understand ND doing everything by the books since then. That's the only way to do it. There are no other options.

Third, it's absolutely ridiculous though that there isn't more of an attempt at alacrity. They COULD push things forward if they wanted to... they are not moving as fast as possible. My guy I talked to Thursday said he thought everything would be resolved by end of today... unless people dragged their feet for some reason. There is no good reason that these players couldn't have had their hearings yesterday besides the academics involved moving at their own pace. I understand the decoupling of academics/athletics... but seriously, there has to be a way to block 15 minutes in everyone's schedule and get this done as soon as feasible.

 

[koonja]

I understand both sides of the coin here.

First, I stand by everything critical I said about ND's initial handling of this situation from the moment they were first alerted to a player possibly cheating until that disaster of a press conference.

Second, I understand ND doing everything by the books since then. That's the only way to do it. There are no other options.

Third, it's absolutely ridiculous though that there isn't more of an attempt at alacrity. They COULD push things forward if they wanted to... they are not moving as fast as possible. My guy I talked to Thursday said he thought everything would be resolved by end of today... unless people dragged their feet for some reason. There is no good reason that these players couldn't have had their hearings yesterday besides the academics involved moving at their own pace. I understand the decoupling of academics/athletics... but seriously, there has to be a way to block 15 minutes in everyone's schedule and get this done as soon as feasible.

This. When we get shit that's a priority in the real working world, we don't get to say 'well project document says not due until Sept. 15th'. You find a way to get it done. First thing's first.

 

[gkIrish]

I get that. But I think it needs to be changed to allow flexibility. Not every student or student athlete is the same. This will eventually screw someone over and get the University embarassed, sued, and fuck with a kid's life.

Is the process inefficient? Maybe, I don't know. I do know normal trials take weeks and months and years to be completed if you include all the evidence-gathering and whatnot.

The point is that even if you want the process changed, it can't just happen overnight. Dulac would have to be amended which I'm sure would not be easy. To use an analogy, we can't just amend the U.S. Constitution overnight, even if everyone pretty much knows it should be amended. It takes a drawn out formal process.

 

[koonja]

Is the process inefficient? Maybe, I don't know. I do know normal trials take weeks and months and years to be completed if you include all the evidence-gathering and whatnot.

The point is that even if you want the process changed, it can't just happen overnight. Dulac would have to be amended which I'm sure would not be easy. To use an analogy, we can't just amend the U.S. Constitution overnight, even if everyone pretty much knows it should be amended. It takes a drawn out formal process.

Tell me ND's not comparing itself with the fucked up judicial system, lol. .

 

[wizards8507]

To be clear: we can't "start the clock" on this thing when the news first broke because the honor committee process requires student representation, and students just got to campus a week ago. As far as I'm concerned, we're only at the beginning of week two in this whole thing.

 

[Booslum31]

I understand both sides of the coin here.

First, I stand by everything critical I said about ND's initial handling of this situation from the moment they were first alerted to a player possibly cheating until that disaster of a press conference.

Second, I understand ND doing everything by the books since then. That's the only way to do it. There are no other options.

Third, it's absolutely ridiculous though that there isn't more of an attempt at alacrity. They COULD push things forward if they wanted to... they are not moving as fast as possible. My guy I talked to Thursday said he thought everything would be resolved by end of today... unless people dragged their feet for some reason. There is no good reason that these players couldn't have had their hearings yesterday besides the academics involved moving at their own pace. I understand the decoupling of academics/athletics... but seriously, there has to be a way to block 15 minutes in everyone's schedule and get this done as soon as feasible.

Totally agree. Don't short cut the process...expedite the process.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Maybe DD is a problem person. You ever think about that?



As has been discussed ad nauseam, there is a panel (that includes students) that review these matters. You can't just force those students to change their schedules to accommodate the football team.

FWIW my source has indicated there has been a definitive decision on at least 2 of the players. Seems inconsistent with all the other rumors out there and the fact that the honor code process isn't complete so I don't want to expand any further considering the info is probably wrong.

Possibly that the decision on 2 players could mean their process was handles differently because they didn't cheat. Maybe they didn't face the same panel or a panel at all. Maybe the University investigated and found nothing if issue to put them in front of a panel, or at least not enough to put them in that position. This is a question. I have no inside info.

 

[gkIrish]

I understand both sides of the coin here.

First, I stand by everything critical I said about ND's initial handling of this situation from the moment they were first alerted to a player possibly cheating until that disaster of a press conference.

Second, I understand ND doing everything by the books since then. That's the only way to do it. There are no other options.

Third, it's absolutely ridiculous though that there isn't more of an attempt at alacrity. They COULD push things forward if they wanted to... they are not moving as fast as possible. My guy I talked to Thursday said he thought everything would be resolved by end of today... unless people dragged their feet for some reason. There is no good reason that these players couldn't have had their hearings yesterday besides the academics involved moving at their own pace. I understand the decoupling of academics/athletics... but seriously, there has to be a way to block 15 minutes in everyone's schedule and get this done as soon as feasible.

The thing is "expediting the process" is not that simple. All these things have to happen in no particular order:

A) All the members of the committee must be able to meet at a time that was not previously agreed to.
B) Either: 1) they have to skip over other cases or (2) they have to meet for a longer period of time than normal in order to resolve the other cases before they get to the players.
C) Appeals?
D) After the resolution, the Football program and the University have to agree on the proper way to handle in the PR sense.

So as wizards noted, this process only started last week. A few weeks is fairly reasonable I think

I'm as frustrated as anyone, particularly because I'm sick of losing to Michigan. But I don't think much more can be done.

 

[koonja]

The thing is "expediting the process" is not that simple. All these things have to happen in no particular order:

A) All the members of the committee must be able to meet at a time that was not previously agreed to.
B) Either: 1) they have to skip over other cases or (2) they have to meet for a longer period of time than normal in order to resolve the other cases before they get to the players.
C) Appeals?
D) After the resolution, the Football program and the University have to agree on the proper way to handle in the PR sense.

So as wizards noted, this process only started last week. A few weeks is fairly reasonable I think

I'm as frustrated as anyone, particularly because I'm sick of losing to Michigan. But I don't think much more can be done.

You're saying a few weeks total (starting from August 15th) correct? Not a few weeks from when the investigation is complete?

I don't have a problem with them following the steps of the process. I have a problem with the current process and it's inability to be flexible for important scenarios, strickly student ones as well as football players. Their hands are tied and I get that, but this process is BS IMO. Like I said, what if this happened June 1st? These players would be held out the entire summer and fall camp/practice because 'well the students aren't back, so just sit on it for a few months'?

And if they're found not guilty, that's complete BS.