Rumored Violations

[Bogtrotter07]

Originally Posted by mooneytostle View Post
I don't think that is true. I believe it is an issue of a student editing (or possibly going well beyond editing and actually doing significant writing) players' papers.

I believe that's plagiarism.

I believe that is not.

 

[Emcee77]

Well we have no idea what conduct we are really talking about, do we? We have no facts. We have labels, but labels are sometimes applied incorrectly, sometimes because all the facts aren't out yet.

We do know that DaVaris claims that he sent someone a paper or papers for proofreading, and that the work was still substantially his own. So that's what made me curious about whether this is a case of "heavy editing." If so, I tend to agree with Whiskey that that likely isn't "academic fraud" and I'm hopeful our guys will be cleared.

 

[JughedJones]

I believe that is not.

Really?

The way that he worded it, 'doing significant writing of the papers,' sounds like it to me. Maybe I'm not understanding some nuance here.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Really?

The way that he worded it, 'doing significant writing of the papers,' sounds like it to me. Maybe I'm not understanding some nuance here.

"Possibly." The possibility. Implies when they started the investigation, they didn't know. In other words the investigation started on the basis of a third parties suspicion. And they had no admissions or explanations from anyone involved.

For example, early on it was factually reported that the female who has been identified was a paid tutor. That is even looking pretty thin today isn't it?

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Put this in the Fall camp thread as well:

Anna reporting from multiple sources she was told KVR was in positional meeting this morning but the other 3 were not.

HUGE if that's true. I was most worried about losing him. If Daniels and Ishaq can make it back then we have our starters back. Of course, I hope no one is guilty.

 

[NDdomer2]

My thing is this... Is ND holding these players to higher standards (in comparison to just about anyone) if they sit them for a few games and watch them like hawks moving forward??... Or is committing football Hara-kiri the only real option in terms of higher standards?

I am not sure the proper way. If you sit them for a few games and watch them like hawks moving forward how does the rest of the student body feel. They would have faced likely worse repercussions. Football hara-kiri may also be too intense.

What we do know about it is that Fr. Jenkins said they would use the student handbook and the council. IMO each individual will get "tried" as such, not as a collective group.

 

[Woneone]

What you've put in parentheses there is a form of plagiarism-- passing another's work off as your own. "Editing", under any reasonable definition of the word, doesn't even come close.

If the tutor at issue was generating a significant amount of original content for the athlete, that's plagiarism. If the tutor was simply altering that athlete's original content, even significantly, that's editing.

My understanding is that actual plagiarism is typically easy to detect, and easily distinguished from editing. Practically speaking, there's not much of a gray area here.

I'd agree with this.

I was a writing tutor in college. During my first 2 years, I worked with the general student body, although I did tutor some athletes (basketball and swim team). There were many occasions where I would "assist" them in re-writing entire passages of their papers. In most cases, it was basically me handing them what to write while trying to teach a lesson in the process.

Periodically, I'd have to meet with Professors about assignments. They'd ask me specifically if those passages were written with my assistance. They knew. It isn't hard to identify. Even if it's just someone editing the original from the student, the differences from paragraph to paragraph, and paper to paper are pretty telling when someone gets assistance.

Hell, even I could tell if they plagiarized, or someone else helped them. It wasn't hard.

But, as Whiskey said, unless it's word for word, in most undergrad classes it wasn't/isn't considered plagiarizing. Sure, you had some science classes that required citations in a specific format, and if they were not all there, they'd dock you for "Plagiarizing", but this wasn't usually the case.

Edit: I was also a Math tutor for a year and we had more cases of tutors getting into trouble for doing too much of a students work there than we ever did in the Writing Center.

 

[Grahambo]

Put this in the Fall camp thread as well:

Anna reporting from multiple sources she was told KVR was in positional meeting this morning but the other 3 were not.

Big, if true.

The academic fraud at issue here is allegedly plagiarism, and what you've just described doesn't even come close:



The vast majority of written work turned in by undergrads isn't original research, so the bar for plagiarism is pretty high. Unless a student simply copies and pastes large portions into his work without proper accreditation, there's usually no problem.

Having a tutor edit one's paper isn't problematic either, as long as they're editing original content, and not straight-up rewriting the whole thing for you. But even then, as long they're remaining faithful to the original content, it would be hard to get dinged for it.

In other words, plagiarism isn't usually a very nuanced issue in undergrad. You either ripped it off of wikipedia directly, or you wrote it yourself. Most "shades of gray" in there won't get you in trouble either.

What you've put in parentheses there is a form of plagiarism-- passing another's work off as your own. "Editing", under any reasonable definition of the word, doesn't even come close.

If the tutor at issue was generating a significant amount of original content for the athlete, that's plagiarism. If the tutor was simply altering that athlete's original content, even significantly, that's editing.

My understanding is that actual plagiarism is typically easy to detect, and easily distinguished from editing. Practically speaking, there's not much of a gray area here.

Now, maybe this is a stretch but is it possible that she could have made significant alterations to a players page WITHOUT him knowing so when he turns in the work, it appears like plagiarism but the player didn't know? Then when confronted, she drops names of other players that she helped.

Either way, hope they hurry this up.

 

[ACamp1900]

I am not sure the proper way. If you sit them for a few games and watch them like hawks moving forward how does the rest of the student body feel. They would have faced likely worse repercussions. Football hara-kiri may also be too intense.

What we do know about it is that Fr. Jenkins said they would use the student handbook and the council. IMO each individual will get "tried" as such, not as a collective group.

Yeah, all this is true... I'm just spinning around on the best way to keep standards high while not sacrificing the program's ability to compete at the highest level.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

This echoes my professor friend. He always has essays and informal writing assignments due before big papers. So he knows what they did and didn't do while he is grading it.

When there is plagiarism, it is usually evident.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Don't know if it's been discussed on here or if the older guys know about it (no offense), but when I was in undergrad (2004 to 2008) a new software/ website called "turnitin.com" was being purchased by every university in the country.

As a student, you not only submit your paper/ research to the professor but submit it to the website. The site checks for any and all instances of possible plagiarism and reports back to the professor.

At my college of 6000 undergrads, I know of a few who got expelled because of it.

 

[wizards8507]

Don't know if it's been discussed on here or if the older guys know about it (no offense), but when I was in undergrad (2004 to 2008) a new software/ website called "turnitin.com" was being purchased by every university in the country.

As a student, you not only submit your paper/ research to the professor but submit it to the website. The site checks for any and all instances of possible plagiarism and reports back to the professor.

At my college of 6000 undergrads, I know of a few who got expelled because of it.

I was there 2007-2011 and I recall the software being mentioned as available to students for self-checking but I don't recall ever having a class where it was required.

 

[ACamp1900]

Turnitin is very common place now. It gives you (the instructor) a 'percentage of' and there will always be something... obviously the part that is highlighted should be cited correctly and such. When teaching basic college level English courses I've even given my students the option of turning it in themselves to check and make sure before they submit it to me, as I find, sadly, many don't know the first thing about plagiarism coming out of high school. Cool little tool.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I was there 2007-2011 and I recall the software being mentioned as available to students for self-checking but I don't recall ever having a class where it was required.

From what I remember the software started as a self check from students. I can only speak for my school but several departments' professors used it for grading and catching plagiarism.

 

[JTLA]

I'm assuming all this debate is non-sensical.

When Savvy Jack stood in front of a microphone to defend Manti Te'o I assumed he had done his homework* and knew without a doubt of Te'o's innocence of any malicious behavior.

When he and Father Jenkins put their names and faces in front of this story, I assumed they had done as much homework*. They had two weeks to do email forensics and they concluded that these four were guilty. The rumors floating here and elsewhere about the subjectivity of the offenses have no basis in fact. At this stage they are leveraging the information they have about these four to determine the full scope of the guilt of others.

 

[koonja]

FWIW: As of BK's press conference, 'no clarity on situation of 4 suspended players'. BK said he has no problem with them being around the team in the meantime.

 

[IrishFaninTX]

Very disappointing all of this? I'm 37 and I can't ever remember these types of things happening here. 4 incidents in the last 15 months involving academics. Golson, Daniels 1st time, grant from the bball squad and now these four poor souls.

Players have been academically ineligible many times in the past. I think it gets publicized a lot more often with social media now but I can think off the top of my head at least a couple guys in the years prior to Kelly that had to take a semester or even full year away from ND due to academics. Julius Jones is one and I am not positive that it was academics related but Darren Walls and Gary Gray both missed a season. Then there have been guys that were dismissed for violating team rues but that could involve grades, as well, it just wasn't mentioned as a grades issus. This is nothing new, it's just more publicized than it used to be.

 

[Irish#1]

From what I remember the software started as a self check from students. I can only speak for my school but several departments' professors used it for grading and catching plagiarism.

My class this summer required final papers to be submitted through a software check. Don't remember if it's the same one, but I was surprised how high my percentage was even though I wrote the entire paper. When you cite someone, the software marks it as plagiarism. Teachers need to read the papers carefully, to make sure you cited your source so you don't get dinged. The software also keeps a copy of your paper so others can't use it in the future.

 

[Jerry]

What you've put in parentheses there is a form of plagiarism-- passing another's work off as your own. "Editing", under any reasonable definition of the word, doesn't even come close.

If the tutor at issue was generating a significant amount of original content for the athlete, that's plagiarism. If the tutor was simply altering that athlete's original content, even significantly, that's editing.

My understanding is that actual plagiarism is typically easy to detect, and easily distinguished from editing. Practically speaking, there's not much of a gray area here.

I think it will be pretty cut and dry what the changes are, because they will compare what the student sent to the tutor with what they sent back via email. I just know that when something is written horribly it's really hard not to basically erase a paragraph and start from scratch and be like "this is what you should of wrote". And then with deadlines and kids being busy with school and sports schedules I could see an athlete just thinking it looks good to me and turning it in without thinking twice about it.

 

[ACamp1900]

My class this summer required final papers to be submitted through a software check. Don't remember if it's the same one, but I was surprised how high my percentage was even though I wrote the entire paper. When you cite someone, the software marks it as plagiarism. Teachers need to read the papers carefully, to make sure you cited your source so you don't get dinged. The software also keeps a copy of your paper so others can't use it in the future.

As I touched upon, EVERY paper will come back with a % flagged. So long as the amount flagged is under a certain percentage and the part highlighted for direct quotes is properly cited then there is no issue.

 

[tdbaum1]

Does anyone else find it odd the way that BK is talking about these four players like they are already gone? For example, "BK: Getting Torii Hunter back will help with Daniels loss. Fuller and Robinson will have to play more now."

I didn't watch or hear BK's words and am just going off of the tweets of his interview, but it still struck me as a little odd.

 

[PANDFAN]

Does anyone else find it odd the way that BK is talking about these four players like they are already gone? For example, "BK: Getting Torii Hunter back will help with Daniels loss. Fuller and Robinson will have to play more now."

I didn't watch or hear BK's words and am just going off of the tweets of his interview, but it still struck me as a little odd.

He has NO idea when or if they will be back...next man in...right now they arn't considered a part of the active football team

wouldn't read too much into it...later he said he had no issues w/ them being around the guys...so IF he was sooo sure on them NOT being around, i would think he wouldn't want the distraction..my .02

 

[Henges24]

Does anyone else find it odd the way that BK is talking about these four players like they are already gone? For example, "BK: Getting Torii Hunter back will help with Daniels loss. Fuller and Robinson will have to play more now."

I didn't watch or hear BK's words and am just going off of the tweets of his interview, but it still struck me as a little odd.

I found that quote to be odd also.

 

[JTLA]

Does anyone else find it odd the way that BK is talking about these four players like they are already gone? For example, "BK: Getting Torii Hunter back will help with Daniels loss. Fuller and Robinson will have to play more now."

I didn't watch or hear BK's words and am just going off of the tweets of his interview, but it still struck me as a little odd.

I think the optimism here about the innocence or potential innocence of these 4 players does not reflect reality as it pertains to BK's understanding of the facts.

 

[dwshade]

I don't find it odd at all. From a coaches perspective he has to assume he's not going to have those players and must focus on getting the next guys ready to play. If they come back then great. But as of now he can't plan around the unknown.

 

[Wild Bill]

Does anyone else find it odd the way that BK is talking about these four players like they are already gone? For example, "BK: Getting Torii Hunter back will help with Daniels loss. Fuller and Robinson will have to play more now."

I didn't watch or hear BK's words and am just going off of the tweets of his interview, but it still struck me as a little odd.

Staff can't prepare two game plans for Rice. You assume the men are gone until they are back.

There is no other way to approach the situation as a coach.

 

[Emcee77]

He has NO idea when or if they will be back...next man in...right now they arn't considered a part of the active football team

wouldn't read too much into it...later he said he had no issues w/ them being around the guys...so IF he was sooo sure on them NOT being around, i would think he wouldn't want the distraction..my .02

I fully agree. I think BK is being prudent by planning for the worst, and that's all we learned today.

I don't think any inferences about the status of the 4 investigated players are warranted based on today's presser.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I just talked to someone who said students have to be back for a committee to make a decision. From what he understands of the du Lac procedure, the University can have the whole thing wrapped up, but until the council reviews it, nothing more can be done.

 

[wizards8507]

I just talked to someone who said students have to be back for a committee to make a decision. From what he understands of the du Lac procedure, the University can have the whole thing wrapped up, but until the council reviews it, nothing more can be done.

University Code of Honor Committee // Undergraduate Academic Code of Honor // University of Notre Dame

-If the student admits that a violation took place, the instructor and student can try to settle the matter by completing an Honor Code Violation Report.

-If either the student or instructor is unwilling to sign an Honor Code Violation Report, and yet the instructor still suspects that a violation has occurred, then the matter must be referred to the relevant Honesty Committee for a potential hearing.

The consequences of an Honor Code violation are serious. Depending on the severity of the violation, penalties for a
first-time violation will often range from:

-Zero credit on the assignment in question
to
-Failing grade in the course

The standard penalty for a repeated offense is dismissal from the University.

 

[PANDFAN]

posted in 2015 master list but thought this should be here also

posted in 2015 master list but thought this should be here also

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>"We are who we are. Adversity everywhere you go. None of (recruits) we've talked to since are concerned about (investigation)." - Alford</p>— Anna Hickey (@AnnaHScout) <a href="https://twitter.com/AnnaHScout/statuses/501819090970103808">August 19, 2014</a></blockquote>
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