Rumored Violations

[Irish8248]

They also receive 160k dollars worth of free education which transcends into a 40 year career/lifestyle after 4 years... Being withheld from football activities while remaining in those classes = no harm to them whatsoever. This could very well be a way to say time served justifies a two game suspension. The team has moved on from this distraction, so should the fans. When all, some, none are reinstated think of it like a Christmas day surprise.

If you can't tell by now, the focus of this investigation is academics not athletics. The football timeline means shit and that's how it should be. It sucks and might be a bad PR move depending on how you look at it, but the university clearly has a process and they are going to follow it despite fan outrage

 

[Whiskeyjack]

What I cant understand is why couldnt they practice with the team while this is pending? I can understand not playing due to possible vacate wins but why not practice? Say this goes on another week...thats 4 weeks non practice. They wont be ready to play within a week. Might as well scratch them for half the season. Thats BS and a complete injustice if they are found innocent.

I'm not an expert on NCAA compliance, but it's not uncommon for football players to be suspended from all team-related activities pending a serious investigation.

Regarding that last sentence, my understanding is that there's very little chance of any of the five being found "innocent". Some of them may not have cheated directly, but if they knew about the cheating and didn't report it, then they're guilty of a lesser offense.

 

[ND NYC]

Would everyone just read pages 12-24? It would save me much copying and pasting.

http://honorcode.nd.edu/assets/64266/academic_code_of_honor_handbook.pdf

sorry wiz and thanks for finding that.

 

[PANDFAN]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Really would like to know why the delay by <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NotreDame?src=hash">#NotreDame</a>. Our kids are enrolled in school but are not allowed to practice. Hard to understand!</p>— Phillip Daniels (@PhillipDaniels) <a href="https://twitter.com/PhillipDaniels/statuses/506868928094560256">September 2, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Booslum31]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Really would like to know why the delay by <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NotreDame?src=hash">#NotreDame</a>. Our kids are enrolled in school but are not allowed to practice. Hard to understand!</p>— Phillip Daniels (@PhillipDaniels) <a href="https://twitter.com/PhillipDaniels/statuses/506868928094560256">September 2, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Well said Phillip...we're all kind of wondering the same thing. Why is it ok to go to classes but not to participate in activities. Just seems off.

 

[IrishLax]

It's really inexplicable. Federal Government-esque inefficiency and lack of drive to get this over with.

 

[IrishFaninTX]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Really would like to know why the delay by <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NotreDame?src=hash">#NotreDame</a>. Our kids are enrolled in school but are not allowed to practice. Hard to understand!</p>— Phillip Daniels (@PhillipDaniels) <a href="https://twitter.com/PhillipDaniels/statuses/506868928094560256">September 2, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I guess that is my main issue with it all. The non student athletes are not affected by the delay. They can still take classes and participate in their class projects. I guess it might affect if they are on any committees or participate in drama or something not athletic related but if they just go to class and hang out with friends then it doesn't affect them at all. The end results will affect them but they are not missing out on anything now so it seems the athletes are getting a harsher penalty. Since students are allowed to attend class I don't understand why athletes cannot practice. I know it is the way these things are handled but just seems off to me.

 

[Domina Nostra]

What if they are guilty, and the delay is to allow sufficient time to brainstorm what punishment is fair?

If they have gone through all the information gathering and transmitting, I agree that it takes whatever time it takes. But if it is just a matter of squeezing a meeting in, on the other hand, as I have experienced on some important deals: "Everyone is free at 6 am tommorrow."

Who is depending on them for what? The 80 other scholarship football players? I wouldn't really consider that a large number of people, depending on them. How many regular students go through this process, and maybe have to miss group projects where other students were counting on them to contribute?

This is just argumentative. Obviouly the football players have a very special place in the community and many people depend on them in various ways. Some other students may have special responsibilities as well. For most students this is not the case.

As much as I want to agree with this, the argument can certainly be made, that bypassing the normal procedures, just so that this guy can return to his extracurricular activity, while others may not be afforded the same treatment, constitutes a "substantive" benefit, for one group of students over others.

Completely disagree. Justice and fairness do not mean treating everyone the same, but treating them how they deserve based on their situation. I am not being treated unfairly because handicap kids get to pass me in line at Disney World. The line policy takes into account thier condition. I would be fine with Hawaiian students getting slotted earlier than other students in certain things to accomodate their parents much larger investments in plane tickets, for example. I would support a single mother getting scheduling priority. As long as they hold them to the same standards, I think they don't have to pretend that they are average students FOR SCHEDULING PURPOSES.

edit

 

[koonja]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Really would like to know why the delay by <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NotreDame?src=hash">#NotreDame</a>. Our kids are enrolled in school but are not allowed to practice. Hard to understand!</p>— Phillip Daniels (@PhillipDaniels) <a href="https://twitter.com/PhillipDaniels/statuses/506868928094560256">September 2, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

It's really inexplicable. Federal Government-esque inefficiency and lack of drive to get this over with.

Preach.

 

[wizards8507]

I guess that is my main issue with it all. The non student athletes are not affected by the delay. They can still take classes and participate in their class projects. I guess it might affect if they are on any committees or participate in drama or something not athletic related but if they just go to class and hang out with friends then it doesn't affect them at all. The end results will affect them but they are not missing out on anything now so it seems the athletes are getting a harsher penalty. Since students are allowed to attend class I don't understand why athletes cannot practice. I know it is the way these things are handled but just seems off to me.

The notion of a "delay" is entirely fabricated. This isn't a "delay," it's just how long it takes.

Things nobody seems to want to discuss:

• If the athletes had just come clean and admitted everything, they could have signed ONE form, taken an F for the course, and this would have been over in 15 minutes.
• Be real guys. They probably did it. The delay is likely irrelevant because they're going to be getting punishments above and beyond what you get when you fess up.
• There were a number of exit ramps to get this over with. They could have, you know, not cheated in the first place. They could have admitted it when first confronted (likely F on the assignment), or at the start of the investigation (F for the course). Now they're potentially looking at worse.

 

[Domina Nostra]

The notion of a "delay" is entirely fabricated. This isn't a "delay," it's just how long it takes.

Things nobody seems to want to discuss:

• 
  If the athletes had just come clean and admitted everything, they could have signed ONE form, taken an F for the course, and this would have been over in 15 minutes.
• Be real guys. They probably did it. The delay is likely irrelevant because they're going to be getting punishments above and beyond what you get when you fess up.
• There were a number of exit ramps to get this over with. They could have, you know, not cheated in the first place. They could have admitted it when first confronted (likely F on the assignment), or at the start of the investigation (F for the course). Now they're potentially looking at worse.

1) If they actually thought they did anything wrong... the conversation is premised on lots and lots of smoke that at least one of the students didn't actually cheat.

2) they probalby did "something," but who knows what... that makes a huge difference! Asking someone to turn in their friends for cheating is a lot differnt than asking them not to cheat. The whole law is structured on that premise.

3) taking an F on a course is not something you can just suck up to get something over with...

 

[wizards8507]

3) taking an F on a course is not something you can just suck up to get something over with...

I disagree. If you make a mistake, you man up and admit it. Not to "get it over with," but to show some integrity.

 

[IrishLax]

1) If they actually thought they did anything wrong... the conversation is premised on lots and lots of smoke that at least one of the students didn't actually cheat.

2) they probalby did "something," but who knows what... that makes a huge difference! Asking someone to turn in their friends for cheating is a lot differnt than asking them not to cheat. The whole law is structured on that premise.

3) taking an F on a course is not something you can just suck up to get something over with...

In fact, failing a course from two years ago... if it was a core requiremnet and pre-req... means you're not graduating and/or likely past the point of return such that you're almost certainly getting expelled from ND.

It also wouldn't have sped up anything, as this isn't your typical isolated incident. This is a probe of absurd breadth and depth that had to run its course. "Pretrial diversion" only would've expedited things if the end result was expulsion... but I even doubt that, they'd probably still hold the kid in limbo with what his ultimate fate was with everyone else.

 

[palinurus]

I disagree. If you make a mistake, you man up and admit it. Not to "get it over with," but to show some integrity.

Yeah, but that was only one credit hour.

 

[wizards8507]

It also wouldn't have sped up anything, as this isn't your typical isolated incident. This is a probe of absurd breadth and depth that had to run its course. "Pretrial diversion" only would've expedited things if the end result was expulsion... but I even doubt that, they'd probably still hold the kid in limbo with what his ultimate fate was with everyone else.

Is the probe of absurd breadth and depth, or is the level of cheating of absurd breadth and depth?

 

[IrishLax]

Is the probe of absurd breadth and depth, or is the level of cheating of absurd breadth and depth?

One in the same...?

No, I do not believe the cheating itself is anything "absurd" sounds very standard and typical... guaranteed happens at every with major sports and then some. How far ND went with their probe though is certainly outside the norm.

Only one aspect of the situation is remotely salacious and it's far from unique.*

*Standard disclaimer, this is all from second/third hand hearsay.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

One in the same...?

No, I do not believe the cheating itself is anything "absurd" sounds very standard and typical... guaranteed happens at every with major sports and then some. How far ND went with their probe though is certainly outside the norm.

Only one aspect of the situation is remotely salacious and it's far from unique.*

*Standard disclaimer, this is all from second/third hand hearsay.

Does it involve Eskimos who are related?

 

[ndftbl]

The notion of a "delay" is entirely fabricated. This isn't a "delay," it's just how long it takes.

Things nobody seems to want to discuss:

• If the athletes had just come clean and admitted everything, they could have signed ONE form, taken an F for the course, and this would have been over in 15 minutes.
• Be real guys. They probably did it. The delay is likely irrelevant because they're going to be getting punishments above and beyond what you get when you fess up.
• There were a number of exit ramps to get this over with. They could have, you know, not cheated in the first place. They could have admitted it when first confronted (likely F on the assignment), or at the start of the investigation (F for the course). Now they're potentially looking at worse.

If you get an F for the course, you are on academic probation for the semester anyway, right, and therefore can't play football?

 

[wizards8507]

If you get an F for the course, you are on academic probation for the semester anyway, right...

No. I got an F (specifically for academic dishonesty) but I was still in "good standing" for the semester and all subsequent semesters. The exception would be if you were pulling all Cs and Ds and it dropped your GPA below the applicable threshold.

...and therefore can't play football?

That's where my knowledge ends. I can speak to status with the university but I have no insight into varsity athletics eligibility.

 

[Rhode Irish]

I feel like there is a split among football fans and people who support the school's wider mission. I'm sure there aren't clear lines to divide people, either, because my sole affiliation with the university is as a fan of its football team. So I'm sure there are people on the other side of that (alums who come down on the football side of this). But to me, Notre Dame is handling this fine. There is a procedure in place and they are abiding by it. And they aren't giving football players special treatment. That is the way it should be if they are sincere about their standards, and I do believe they are. I'd like to see any institution I was associated with do the same thing.

 

[wizards8507]

I'll say this in support of the "it's taking too long" crowd... I'm surprised that they don't have an honesty committee in place during the summer session. I believe that is the one flaw that should be addressed, though I don't know how extensive the summer session is or whether there would be enough students and faculty around to adequately support a committee.

 

[Booslum31]

I feel like there is a split among football fans and people who support the school's wider mission. I'm sure there aren't clear lines to divide people, either, because my sole affiliation with the university is as a fan of its football team. So I'm sure there are people on the other side of that (alums who come down on the football side of this). But to me, Notre Dame is handling this fine. There is a procedure in place and they are abiding by it. And they aren't giving football players special treatment. That is the way it should be if they are sincere about their standards, and I do believe they are. I'd like to see any institution I was associated with do the same thing.

Awe...there you go making sense again. But it still pisses me off!

 

[ryno 24]

i know doing discipline committee at Xavier for a particular athlete we had a special hearing in the middle of summer for this case. They brought students in from areas in order for the hearing. Also we had hearings on different days of the weeks.

I know that they are different schools and have different procedures. It does seem like once the investigation was over the hearing should take place.

I am generally supporting the way ND has done this but at some point in time this needs to come to a conclusion.

 

[Irish#1]

Usually student government organizations meet on a set day every week. The one I am a part of meets every Monday night.

I'm not exactly sure how the judicial council works, but I assume that they have a similar set up, so its not like it can be rushed. The investigation was completed at the end of last week, seemingly after the judicial council's meeting for the week. So whenever the council meets this week, their fate will be decided. Hope that adds some clarity (at least thats what I think the process is like from my experience with similar orgs.)

Hmmmm.........

 

[Irish8248]

I want a resolution just so this thread dies lol

 

[Rhode Irish]

I'll say this in support of the "it's taking too long" crowd... I'm surprised that they don't have an honesty committee in place during the summer session. I believe that is the one flaw that should be addressed, though I don't know how extensive the summer session is or whether there would be enough students and faculty around to adequately support a committee.

I can agree with that, but that is a different issue than whether the school should make an exception from its normal operating procedure just because there are football players involved. I feel like even at an SEC school, once the thing is public you're kind of married to your process. The way you protect football players is to bury it. If you want to argue the process is unfair, you could be right and maybe ND needs to address it. But that's besides point here.

 

[Emcee77]

I can agree with that, but that is a different issue than whether the school should make an exception from its normal operating procedure just because there are football players involved. I feel like even at an SEC school, once the thing is public you're kind of married to your process. The way you protect football players is to bury it. If you want to argue the process is unfair, you could be right and maybe ND needs to address it. But that's besides point here.

Right, strongly agree, especially with the bolded.

The process probably does suck in some respects. No legal or disciplinary procedure is perfect. For example, the criminal justice system, where the stakes are often much higher, drives me nucking futs sometimes.

But altering the process because there are football players involved may give at least the appearance of impropriety -- even if, in fact, it's done only to try to be sensitive to the football players' unique situation -- and that undermines the integrity of the proceedings and defeats the purpose of HAVING a procedure. The procedure exists to protect all the various rights and interests of the parties involved, including the players. I do not blame ND for declining to deviate from its normal procedure, if that is in fact what happened here.

 

[ND NYC]

methinks if we were playing purdue this weekend and not michigan the "drumbeat to expedite" would be much quieter

 

[Domina Nostra]

Right, strongly agree, especially with the bolded.

The process probably does suck in some respects. No legal or disciplinary procedure is perfect. For example, the criminal justice system, where the stakes are often much higher, drives me nucking futs sometimes.

But altering the process because there are football players involved may give at least the appearance of impropriety -- even if, in fact, it's done only to try to be sensitive to the football players' unique situation -- and that undermines the integrity of the proceedings and defeats the purpose of HAVING a procedure. The procedure exists to protect all the various rights and interests of the parties involved, including the players. I do not blame ND for declining to deviate from its normal procedure, if that is in fact what happened here.

NCAA: Did you follow your process, when you suspended the 3 kids, and let the other one off.

Notre Dame: Yes, we hired an outside firm to conduct a thorough investigation, passed it on to the honor committee, and came to a conclusion, treating them the same as any other student. 2 kids were suspended, two recieved lighter punishment.

NCAA: We have a document here that says you actually conducted the disciplinary meeting 2 days early than you would have otherwise, because the students had a football game coming up, is that true.

Notre Dame: Yes, we expedited the process, because of the public nature of the story and the kids involvement in football. We considered that choice well within our discretion.

NCAA: Oh, OK.

 

[ACamp1900]

NCAA: Did you follow your process, when you suspended the 3 kids, and let the other one off.

Notre Dame: Yes, we hired an outside firm to conduct a thorough investigation, passed it on to the honor committee, and came to a conclusion, treating them the same as any other student. 2 kids were suspended, two recieved lighter punishment.

NCAA: We have a document here that says you actually conducted the disciplinary meeting 2 days early than you would have otherwise, because the students had a football game coming up, is that true.

Notre Dame: Yes, we expedited the process, because of the public nature of the story and the kids involvement in football, and because well,.... ... fuck michigan. We considered that choice well within our discretion.

NCAA: Oh, OK.

fify