Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

phgreek

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O'Reilly out at Fox News.

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/O_HyZ5aW76c?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I know the guy did some unforgivable things...

But I watched CNN try and pile on last night...the best they had was this powers nut saying he got her confused with the other blondes at the network....WHO HASN'T.

Then some other woman he called hysterical...

Really....
 

NDgradstudent

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Berkeley Campus On Lockdown After Loose Pages From ‘Wall Street Journal’ Found On Park Bench <a href="https://t.co/Qxdap24EIK">https://t.co/Qxdap24EIK</a> <a href="https://t.co/8aQLO2euUP">pic.twitter.com/8aQLO2euUP</a></p>— The Onion (@TheOnion) <a href="https://twitter.com/TheOnion/status/855143858493165568">April 20, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

wizards8507

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Government assisting business in hiring cheap foreign labor = free markets.

Ha
What the hell are you talking about, "assisting"? Businesses should be able to hire whomever the hell they want and, at most, the government ALLOWS it. They're not "assisting" shit.
 

Wild Bill

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What the hell are you talking about, "assisting"? Businesses should be able to hire whomever the hell they want and, at most, the government ALLOWS it. They're not "assisting" shit.

No, businesses aren't free to hire whomever they want. They're bound by laws, and in this case they're bound by immigration laws, and cannot import illegals to work for below market wages. They need a little assistance from the government, if you will, to carve out exceptions in our immigration laws to fill positions at discount prices.

I want to hire cheap household labor too. A maid, lawn service, nanny etc. You think they'll carve out exceptions for me to import some immigrants willing to work for half the price?
 

Legacy

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What if America Voted Like France? (Politico)
Our history would be surprisingly different if America’s elections worked like Sunday’s French vote—or like Britain’s.

Excerpt:
In France, with a Presidential election being watched around the world for the chance a right-wing nationalist or a far-left populist could win, the only certain outcome of the vote Sunday is that there will be no winner: The top two finishers will meet in a decisive runoff two weeks later.

Then there’s Great Britain, which will have a general parliamentary election years earlier than expected—on June 7, to be exact—because Prime Minister Theresa May exercised her power to call a “snap” election. The entire campaign season will run about six weeks from start to finish—a length unimaginable here, where prospective 2020 presidential candidates are already checking flight schedules to Des Moines and Manchester.

Either one of those systems would lead to radically different outcomes in US presidential elections – where a winner can (and often does) become president without a majority of the popular vote, and where the length of the campaign puts huge emphasis on finances, backing, media campaigns, and pure stamina.

The French system is based on a simple premise: no one should lead the nation unless he or she commands an absolute majority of voters. If nobody achieves a majority in the first round, the two winners face off one-on-one. In the U.S., many of our elections—for mayor, governor, House and Senate seats—are held under the same standard. But our Presidential campaigns aren’t: they require a majority of the electoral college, which isn’t the same as the popular vote. While the champions of Al Gore and Hillary Clinton are painfully aware of the results this system can produce, the full story of how “absolute majority” voting would change American politics is nothing less than eye-opening....
 
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Old Man Mike

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Probably shouldn't distract this thread with abortion-related posts, but IF there was an artificial womb, then Roe vs Wade would make ALL abortion decisions illegal, because at that time, all stages of fetal/embryonic development would be "viable."

Almost no one appears to know, or at least focus upon, the fact that the Roe vs Wade decision is a law based entirely upon the state of technology ( better technology means earlier viability ) and the technological arbitrariness of that is that pregnancies in some areas and in some states become actually viable at different stages --- not that anyone wants to open up that mare's nest as it would make "practical" evaluating of pregnancy status another nightmare.

But medical research will ultimately void Roe vs Wade, and there is huge incentive pushing that having nothing to do with abortion --- the preservation of premature births. It is extremely ironic that hard-right conservatives will rail against the concept of the artificial womb, while also railing against abortion, which it will make unnecessary and illegal.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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Probably shouldn't distract this thread with abortion-related posts, but IF there was an artificial womb, then Roe vs Wade would make ALL abortion decisions illegal, because at that time, all stages of fetal/embryonic development would be "viable."

Almost no one appears to know, or at least focus upon, the fact that the Roe vs Wade decision is a law based entirely upon the state of technology ( better technology means earlier viability ) and the technological arbitrariness of that is that pregnancies in some areas and in some states become actually viable at different stages --- not that anyone wants to open up that mare's nest as it would make "practical" evaluating of pregnancy status another nightmare.

But medical research will ultimately void Roe vs Wade, and there is huge incentive pushing that having nothing to do with abortion --- the preservation of premature births. It is extremely ironic that hard-right conservatives will rail against the concept of the artificial womb, while also railing against abortion, which it will make unnecessary and illegal.

OMM, I don't think it's reasonable to conclude an artificial womb would due away with abortion altogether. Assuming it followed the path above, you don't believe a new case would arrive in courts to give similar or greater license to dispose of developing fetuses? Outside of genetic testing, I can imagine a number of approved termination reasons not limited to: economic strain, lifestyle impediment, etc.

Roe v Wade desensitized the public to fetal termination. I don't see how we ever climb out of the ever-widening abyss that landmark ruling created.
 

Old Man Mike

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I'm not talking about "what could happen new", I'm talking about the current law/legal status. Heck, you and I could make ANY statement about anything and then object to it because we are mentally nimble enough to invent a new basis of discussion.

And I see that I have done just what I didn't want to do --- get abortion discussion started in the Science thread (sorry guys, I thought that just maybe this would stop at a "science-related" point.)
 
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Cackalacky

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Probably shouldn't distract this thread with abortion-related posts, but IF there was an artificial womb, then Roe vs Wade would make ALL abortion decisions illegal, because at that time, all stages of fetal/embryonic development would be "viable."

Almost no one appears to know, or at least focus upon, the fact that the Roe vs Wade decision is a law based entirely upon the state of technology ( better technology means earlier viability ) and the technological arbitrariness of that is that pregnancies in some areas and in some states become actually viable at different stages --- not that anyone wants to open up that mare's nest as it would make "practical" evaluating of pregnancy status another nightmare.

But medical research will ultimately void Roe vs Wade, and there is huge incentive pushing that having nothing to do with abortion --- the preservation of premature births. It is extremely ironic that hard-right conservatives will rail against the concept of the artificial womb, while also railing against abortion, which it will make unnecessary and illegal.

This is exactly what I was getting at. I mean if the technology exists to take a fetus and develop it in this type of technology, effectively abortion providers and services could be replaced by this more moral application IMO.
 
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Cackalacky

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OMM, I don't think it's reasonable to conclude an artificial womb would due away with abortion altogether. Assuming it followed the path above, you don't believe a new case would arrive in courts to give similar or greater license to dispose of developing fetuses? Outside of genetic testing, I can imagine a number of approved termination reasons not limited to: economic strain, lifestyle impediment, etc.

Roe v Wade desensitized the public to fetal termination. I don't see how we ever climb out of the ever-widening abyss that landmark ruling created.

I see it much differently. If the typical person who would get an abortion for reasons including that you could not afford it, or it was an accident ,or any of the other multitude reasons.... and the technology existed to take the fetus at some developed stage... then would the morally responsible option be to give it to a provider who develops the fetus until ready for birth in lieu of aborting completely? I think this is much more pleasing idea than having to choose to take it to term or abort it all together.
 
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Cackalacky

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I'm not talking about "what could happen new", I'm talking about the current law/legal status. Heck, you and I could make ANY statement about anything and then object to it because we are mentally nimble enough to invent a new basis of discussion.

And I see that I have done just what I didn't want to do --- get abortion discussion started in the Science thread (sorry guys, I thought that just maybe this would stop at a "science-related" point.)

No I did OMM and I did so for a reason as technology and politics and morality are all intertwined at a point. Please dont not discuss this here as it was my intent to start such a discussion hoping that it could be kept civil.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Probably shouldn't distract this thread with abortion-related posts, but IF there was an artificial womb, then Roe vs Wade would make ALL abortion decisions illegal, because at that time, all stages of fetal/embryonic development would be "viable."

Almost no one appears to know, or at least focus upon, the fact that the Roe vs Wade decision is a law based entirely upon the state of technology ( better technology means earlier viability ) and the technological arbitrariness of that is that pregnancies in some areas and in some states become actually viable at different stages --- not that anyone wants to open up that mare's nest as it would make "practical" evaluating of pregnancy status another nightmare.

But medical research will ultimately void Roe vs Wade, and there is huge incentive pushing that having nothing to do with abortion --- the preservation of premature births. It is extremely ironic that hard-right conservatives will rail against the concept of the artificial womb, while also railing against abortion, which it will make unnecessary and illegal.

I agree with your legal analysis, OMM (which is partly why Roe is such a horribly reasoned opinion), though I'm not as optimistic about the prospect of this new technology ending abortion. Abortion is a necessary policy backstop for any liberal regime, because contraceptive technologies often fail, and sex must be severed from procreation if citizens are to be granted unrestrained genital "freedom". The pro-abortion crowd wll simply switch to a different fallacious argument (person v. nonperson, the absolute sovereignty of a female over her body, etc.) in its favor once the advance of technology removes viability as a concern.

I can definitely see this technology being used for good, but human nature doesn't change, and it can also be used for great evil--like growing designer babies completely separate from the mother. Here's praying the former prevails.
 
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Cackalacky

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I agree with your legal analysis, OMM (which is partly why Roe is such a horribly reasoned opinion), though I'm not as optimistic about the prospect of this new technology ending abortion. Abortion is a necessary policy backstop for any liberal regime, because contraceptive technologies often fail, and sex must be severed from procreation if citizens are to be granted unrestrained genital "freedom". The pro-abortion crowd wll simply switch to a different fallacious argument (person v. nonperson, the absolute sovereignty of a female over her body, etc.) in its favor once the advance of technology remove viability as a concern.

I can definitely see this technology being used for good, but human nature doesn't change, and it can also be used for great evil--like growing designer babies completely separate from the mother. Here's praying the former prevails.

So thought experiment here...
Lets assume the following:
  1. This technology is effective and viable for use in the healthcare market
  2. Healthcare providers can provide reasonable and cost-effective access to this technology
  3. use of this method is limited for assisting problematic pregnancies, premature births or as an alternative to abortion, etc., but dont allow for designer babies or for mothers who just dont want to carry their own baby but still want the child (ie the procedure is limited to legitimate medical causes and abortion as an alternative)
  4. women/parents who opt into this procedure as an alternative to abortion legally gives up all rights to the child and all children developed under this procedure are put up for immediate adoption

I think, personally, that given these circumstances, it is a morally more acceptable alternative to abortion as well as providing significant medical promise for troubled births. Do you think that a women who finds out they are pregnant wouldnt make this choice to give up the fetus earlier than having to abort it? You think that our liberal society would reject this for purely political reasons becasue of a need to maintain their stranglehold on abortion rights which was litigated in a time where other options were not available?

I see this as a game changer and would essentially negate Roe vs Wade if it was available per my assumptions above (obviously hurdles for sure but worth the fight no?). Other problems I see though would be getting to the place where it was cost effective and adoptions were able to keep up. If the gov could not keep up then we would have another set of problems with parent-less children being housed and supported by the government courtesy tax payers. I think this would be somewhat more palatable as well to liberals who claim that is how government is supposed to work.
 

woolybug25

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I agree with your legal analysis, OMM (which is partly why Roe is such a horribly reasoned opinion), though I'm not as optimistic about the prospect of this new technology ending abortion. Abortion is a necessary policy backstop for any liberal regime, because contraceptive technologies often fail, and sex must be severed from procreation if citizens are to be granted unrestrained genital "freedom". The pro-abortion crowd wll simply switch to a different fallacious argument (person v. nonperson, the absolute sovereignty of a female over her body, etc.) in its favor once the advance of technology removes viability as a concern.

I can definitely see this technology being used for good, but human nature doesn't change, and it can also be used for great evil--like growing designer babies completely separate from the mother. Here's praying the former prevails.

Can you imagine all of the "Housewives" that choose to have their eggs fertilized in a tube and then stuck in an artificial womb, thus never actually having to carry a baby? What a Pandora's Box that opens. What happens to maternity leave? What would that do to healthcare costs? What effects does it have on the sanctity of marriage? Interesting topic for certain.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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I'm not talking about "what could happen new", I'm talking about the current law/legal status. Heck, you and I could make ANY statement about anything and then object to it because we are mentally nimble enough to invent a new basis of discussion.

And I see that I have done just what I didn't want to do --- get abortion discussion started in the Science thread (sorry guys, I thought that just maybe this would stop at a "science-related" point.)

Understood Mike, I think a precedent has been set but I may be wrong and perhaps a counter argument can be made.

I see it much differently. If the typical person who would get an abortion for reasons including that you could not afford it, or it was an accident ,or any of the other multitude reasons.... and the technology existed to take the fetus at some developed stage... then would the morally responsible option be to give it to a provider who develops the fetus until ready for birth in lieu of aborting completely? I think this is much more pleasing idea than having to choose to take it to term or abort it all together.

Of course the morally responsible option would be to transfer development from 'in utero' to 'in synthetic utero' and allow the child to completely mature before birth....er....harvesting. (which is another gruesome direction this is likely to go but I digress). I think almost every pro-lifer would agree to this in lieu of abortion.

When do we start using these synthetic uteruses to grow organs? Anyone read "Never Let Me Go" by Kazuro Ishiguro? Hopefully we skip whole human incubators and attach our organs to reduced brains, no prefrontal cortex needed so hopefully we can knock that out with genetic manipulation. It'd be great if we could reduce the skeletal structure so it looks less human as well, perhaps de-limb them so our flesh sacks don't reflect the humanity that designed them.

Of course, all of these changes to the human form could only be completed after we've mapped the hormonal milieu needed to keep development on course. Changes in the morphology of a human would incur unforeseen changes in the hormonal signaling/cellular signaling so it'll take time.

Don't take my mental soliloquy as a serious railing against artificial wombs, this is mostly a thought exercise but one that is important. I'm certain these deliberations occurred when developing the atomic bomb and it only resulted in 230,000 deaths since 1945 and a cold war that certainly led to premature aging in countless people.

How much more serious should we consider synthetic incubation chambers and their myriad uses?
 
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Cackalacky

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Understood Mike, I think a precedent has been set but I may be wrong and perhaps a counter argument can be made.



Of course the morally responsible option would be to transfer development from 'in utero' to 'in synthetic utero' and allow the child to completely mature before birth....er....harvesting. (which is another gruesome direction this is likely to go but I digress). I think almost every pro-lifer would agree to this in lieu of abortion.

When do we start using these synthetic uteruses to grow organs? Anyone read "Never Let Me Go" by Kazuro Ishiguro? Hopefully we skip whole human incubators and attach our organs to reduced brains, no prefrontal cortex needed so hopefully we can knock that out with genetic manipulation. It'd be great if we could reduce the skeletal structure so it looks less human as well, perhaps de-limb them so our flesh sacks don't reflect the humanity that designed them.

Of course, all of these changes to the human form could only be completed after we've mapped the hormonal milieu needed to keep development on course. Changes in the morphology of a human would incur unforeseen changes in the hormonal signaling/cellular signaling so it'll take time.

Don't take my mental soliloquy as a serious railing against artificial wombs, this is mostly a thought exercise but one that is important. I'm certain these deliberations occurred when developing the atomic bomb and it only resulted in 230,000 deaths since 1945 and a cold war that certainly led to premature aging in countless people.

How much more serious should we consider synthetic incubation chambers and their myriad uses?
Or it could be used to halt or stop what is equivalent to a Holocaust every year.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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Or it could be used to halt or stop what is equivalent to a Holocaust every year.

Certainly. It's all in the policies that surround it's development. I assume we'll want to exploit it but your depiction of how we'd use the synthetic womb would be a very welcomed development, if that's where it stopped.
 
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Cackalacky

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Or when AI finally takes over it will know exactly how to do this to us:
neo-wakes-up.jpg
 

Old Man Mike

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{{{{I apparently can't help myself and so "I'm talking and can't shut up!!!!"}}}}

These arguments/discussions have occupied the bioethics community at least since I began teaching relevant materials in 1970. A reasonably written "popular" exposition of this stuff was authored by Gerald Leach (THE BIOCRATS, copyright 1970.) That book somewhat presciently discussed almost all of these things and many of their imagined consequences.

If there were any consensus opinions on anything back in those days, one of the strongest was the distinction between things done for "positive eugenics" reasons vs "negative eugenics." ("Positive" meaning "improve the individual over the norm", and "Negative" meaning "eliminate obvious generally medically agreed upon illness, malformation, malfunction." {Yes, there are an almost uncountable number of arguments as to which is which in each sort of thing, but the medical ethics community took a pretty hard line on this, even strongly stating that choosing the sex of a baby was "positive eugenics" and therefore should NOT be done (except in sex-linked genetic diseases where the choice, if the technology was used, would have to be for a girl --- since girls do not get such diseases.)

The positive vs negative eugenics prohibition would not solve all these Brave New World problems, but that criterion could be a start.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I think, personally, that given these circumstances, it is a morally more acceptable alternative to abortion as well as providing significant medical promise for troubled births.

I agree, completely! I'm not upset by this technology, nor do I find anything in it that is intrinsically evil. I just doubt the feasibility of your 3rd assumption.

Do you think that a women who finds out they are pregnant wouldnt make this choice to give up the fetus earlier than having to abort it? You think that our liberal society would reject this for purely political reasons becasue of a need to maintain their stranglehold on abortion rights which was litigated in a time where other options were not available?

Liberalism has an internal logic that strongly favors the powerful and the wealthy over classes like the unborn. And there are currently very well-funded and politically connected interest groups that are massively invested in maintaining the legality of abortion. So I very much doubt that technological advancements wiping out the viability issue will change anything, absent a groundswell of support for protecting human life at all stages of development.

I see this as a game changer and would essentially negate Roe vs Wade if it was available per my assumptions above (obviously hurdles for sure but worth the fight no?). Other problems I see though would be getting to the place where it was cost effective and adoptions were able to keep up. If the gov could not keep up then we would have another set of problems with parent-less children being housed and supported by the government courtesy tax payers. I think this would be somewhat more palatable as well to liberals who claim that is how government is supposed to work.

I'm encouraged to see left-leaning posters that I respect feeling this way. I just don't have much faith that our liberal overlords will put this technology to such constructive use.

Can you imagine all of the "Housewives" that choose to have their eggs fertilized in a tube and then stuck in an artificial womb, thus never actually having to carry a baby? What a Pandora's Box that opens. What happens to maternity leave? What would that do to healthcare costs? What effects does it have on the sanctity of marriage? Interesting topic for certain.

I'd be very surprised if this doesn't come to pass during our lifetimes. No stretch-marks, morning sickness, weight gain, etc. and you get your pick of things like hair color, eye color, and other traits that may correlate with intelligence? Bougie liberals already view children as a "lifestyle choice", akin to buying a dog. This is just the next logical step.
 

Old Man Mike

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"Bougie Liberals" ..............

FWIW: in my teaching career and without, the vast majority of persons favoring self-centered decision-making on almost any topic were people headed towards the rich-suburbia lifestyle having no politics or even values at all. "Liberals" in any political sense (since they didn't give a damm about that) they were not.

What these people were should be described as Kohlberg Stage Two egocentric hedonists. They had no views on liberalism nor conservatism just selfism. I will bet that their voting varied (if they even bothered) between "liberal" and "conservative" positions simply on what they thought they could get out of it. If you wanted to tax them (against conservatism) they were with the "conservatives" and against the "liberals". If you wanted to force them to do something, they were with whatever "side" it was that didn't want to be forced.

I'm slightly pissed at the lumping of people, thoughtless and thoughtful, under these labels, and, when it's done it's always in aid of broad brush smearing the whole. NO "liberal" can be labeled a "Liberal" and be a self-centered thoughtless Kohlberg Stage Two --- neither can a "conservative." All people deserving of either label must have been thoughtful in some way to earn them. That means Kohlberg Stage Fours at least, and Stage Fives most likely.

These things are "handy" smear words and really unhelpful in any discussion. I can take almost any conceivable "issue" and describe opposite positions which in some interpretation can be called "liberal" or "conservative." I can cite any of my friends who sometimes see things in some sort of classical "liberal" way and other times in a classical "conservative" way. I can cite issues which can be described rationally as either liberal or conservative on the precise same thing. {lets cut down that old growth forest ---- Oh those tree-hugging liberals won't like it --- WAIT A MINUTE! We're trying to conserve this park for individual citizen enjoyment!! --- No you're not! You're trying to thwart people from turning assets into cash! --- YOU are the liberals!!! both shout. WE are the conservatives!!! Both shout. --- neither of you are using words which really apply to helping the situation out, I shout.)

I wonder if it is even possible to dump these lazily applied labels and simply talk details of issues.
 

Whiskeyjack

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OMM, perhaps I've gotten lax in clarifying my terminology, though we've discussed this issue in the political and theological threads so often that I'm surprised by the confusion. When I write "liberals" or "liberalism", I'm not referring to Americans with left-of-center politics, but to the political ideology that has dominated the West since the Enlightenment-- Hobbes, Locke, Mill, etc. The way I'm using the term, the GOP and American "conservatism" isn't meaningfully less liberal than the Democrats and American "liberalism". So I'm not slinging mud at political opponents, but trying to make the case that much of what's wrong with modern society can be traced to the Enlightenment, and the unexamined first principles that most of us take for granted.

I assume this confusion partly explains the argument we recently had in the Theology thread as well.
 

Old Man Mike

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Well, OK sort of.

But look at the way this term was tossed into the post #235 above. Very difficult to see that use of Liberals referring to some intellectual tradition of any sort. The tone there is about irresponsible unthinking self-immersed egocentrics. "Bougie" on down that braindead socially-valueless path.

Mud was slung in that case. Who it was slung at I can't clearly tell, but the word "liberals" was involved in whomever those mud catchers were, and that seems broad-brush to me.

So, once again, I'm guilty of derailing a thread by an off-center comment.
 

Whiskeyjack

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So, once again, I'm guilty of derailing a thread by an off-center comment.

Not at all, Mike. I value these exchanges, and want to ensure that we at least understand each other.

But look at the way this term was tossed into the post #235 above. Very difficult to see that use of Liberals referring to some intellectual tradition of any sort. The tone there is about irresponsible unthinking self-immersed egocentrics. "Bougie" on down that braindead socially-valueless path.

My use of the term "bougie" was intentionally evocative of Marx, because I think the class distinctions here are much more instructive than the partisan ones. The closer one gets to the top 1% of American wealth distribution, the families all start to look very similar-- few children meticulously groomed for bourgeois respectability and success in the liberal marketplace rather than large families that emphasize virtue and willingness to sacrifice for the Common Good. It doesn't matter whether the parents pull the lever for the red team or the blue team, the more successful a family is, the more invested they are in the liberal status quo, and the more anxiety they feel about ensuring that their few children learn the ropes of how to be economic "winners" too. Thus, there's little doubt in my mind that our elites will eagerly pay top dollar for genetically modified off-spring that will be more competitive in the global market, regardless of the ethical implications.

As an estate planning attorney, my experience has been that the wealthier the client, the more f*cked up their kids are likely to be. Take from that what you will, but I see that as an indictment of liberalism.
 

connor_in

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OMM, perhaps I've gotten lax in clarifying my terminology, though we've discussed this issue in the political and theological threads so often that I'm surprised by the confusion. When I write "liberals" or "liberalism", I'm not referring to Americans with left-of-center politics, but to the political ideology that has dominated the West since the Enlightenment-- Hobbes, Locke, Mill, etc. The way I'm using the term, the GOP and American "conservatism" isn't meaningfully less liberal than the Democrats and American "liberalism". So I'm not slinging mud at political opponents, but trying to make the case that much of what's wrong with modern society can be traced to the Enlightenment, and the unexamined first principles that most of us take for granted.

I assume this confusion partly explains the argument we recently had in the Theology thread as well.

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