Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

Bishop2b5

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...Looks like you know the line all right...right through the middle brah.

I'm reminded of a comment from another forum about their resident Jughead:

"He has departed from this life. He went into the hospital earlier today to have a hemorrhoidectomy and the surgeon could never find a place to stop cutting." :))
 

NDgradstudent

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My favorite part about this is: We get to see who's who.

Indeed: who shares the view of the ruling class, and who shares the Christian view of marriage?

Tell me more about how you hate the 14th amendment. Tell me more about how government should define marriage.

If the government is going to define marriage, it should have the right definition. There is a very strong case that if a state is being forced to have a wrong definition it would be preferable to simply abolish civil marriage licenses in that state than participate in a lie. Some GOP states are moving in that direction.

Obviously conservatives and liberals interpret the 14th Amendment differently. Liberals believe that the meaning of the words morph as needed to achieve liberal policy goals. Conservatives mainly do not: usually, the original understanding plays a role in a conservative theory of interpretation. As far as I know, same-sex marriage was not discussed in the 14th Amendment ratification debates. Pretty easy.

I understood the Court's decision to be about permitting same-sex couples to participate in the institution of marriage. Polyamory is not marriage, it's something else, and no one is permitted to participate in it. There is no exclusion happening, in the sense that some people can have a legitimate plural marriage and others can't. Plus, there's a long history of abuse that's wrapped up in plural marriage; most people in this country view the idea through the lens of polygamist Mormons or Islam. I just don't see it. Never have.

Polyamory is not marriage- so what? Until a couple days ago same-sex marriage was not marriage in most states.

There was no "exclusion" happening in a conjugal definition of marriage, either: nobody was permitted to marry a member of the same sex.

The main argument in support of same-sex marriage -which five members of the Supreme Court have accepted- is that each person must be allowed to marry in accordance with their sexual appetite. Some people are "bisexual"- they want to marry members of each sex for this reason. Others maintain that they are "poly." Are you going to tell them that they are wrong? Nobody's "sexual orientation" can be verified objectively.

Of all the possible routes to the result it sought, the Supreme Court chose the most pro-polyamory one.

As for tax exemptions, the author never really spells out why the logic of the gay marriage decisions should lead to denying tax-exempt status to religious organizations that don't recognize it (the main purpose of the article seems just to be to explain why religious tax exemptions are generally difficult to administer and absurd in some cases, not to make any point about same-sex marriage or the same-sex marriage decision), and I don't see it. What is the rationale? Obviously a religious organization is not required to compromise its religious beliefs to comport with the Supreme Court's rulings on the 14th Amendment. It won't be required to celebrate same-sex marriages. No matter how you understand the religion clauses, they prevent coercion of religious practice. Are we worried about insuring a gay employee's spouse? BFD.

The logic is this:
(1) If we don't allow religious institutions (not churches, but schools, charities, etc.) that discriminate on the basis of race to have tax-exempt status, we should not allow religious institutions that discriminate on the basis of sexual behavior/orientation to have tax-exempt status.
(2) We don't allow religious institutions (not churches, but schools, charities, etc.) that discriminate on the basis of race to have tax-exempt status.
(3) Therefore, we should not allow religious institutions that discriminate on the basis of sexual behavior/orientation to have tax-exempt status.

Many Catholic schools, charities, etc., would not hire someone who is in a same-sex relationship. Notre Dame does not have such a policy, although it will not perform a same-sex wedding in a campus chapel, which will certainly raise problems.

Most liberals believe that tax exemptions are "subsidies"- in other words, the government is entitled to all of your money, and only lets you keep it at its pleasure. They do not want to "subsidize" "discrimination."

Now in my experience the ND administration's priorities are first money, then academic reputation (in the eyes of the Ivy League), and then winning football games, and then, quite a bit further down the line, the Catholic character of the school. They are not going to want to get into a fight over this, but it may be out of their control soon.
 
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woolybug25

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fuq.... Jughed brought out ndgradstudent.

Thanks a lot, Jughed. No wonder you got banned.
 

ACamp1900

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I have had many good interactions with JJ, typically I find him good peps and hope he returns... but I did love:

me -I see a movement where Christian symbols/ideals are considered hatred.
JJ-You're being paranoid.
Wiz- Marriage is between a man and woman.
JJ- You're a bigoted bastard.

tumblr_ly7rcjO3El1r8swqdo1_500.gif
 

phgreek

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I have had many good interactions with JJ, typically I find him good peps and hope he returns... but I did love:

me -I see a movement where Christian symbols/ideals are considered hatred.
JJ-You're being paranoid.
Wiz- Marriage is between a man and woman.
JJ- You're a bigoted bastard.

tumblr_ly7rcjO3El1r8swqdo1_500.gif

When you distill it like that... funny as hell.

As to JJ, the character on IE...I trust your take. I will say, this particular topic had him come off as someone who refuses to separate intent from interpretation. Thats just not good for any issue.
 

ACamp1900

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When you distill it like that... funny as hell.

As to JJ, the character on IE...I trust your take. I will say, this particular topic had him come off as someone who refuses to separate intent from interpretation. Thats just not good for any issue.

I won't argue that, not his best day
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
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In the interest of ratcheting down tension a bit, I found this political survey to be worthwhile. It asks you questions about your stances on a broad range of issues and provides in-depth options for why you maintain such stances (be sure to click on "Other Stances" if you're not comfortable answering "Yes" or "No".) Once you're done, it shows you which candidates your views most closely align with.

My top match was 73% Rand Paul. But my 2nd was... 68% Bernie Sanders. Might be fun to see where others fall on the spectrum.
 

phgreek

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In the interest of ratcheting down tension a bit, I found this political survey to be worthwhile. It asks you questions about your stances on a broad range of issues and provides in-depth options for why you maintain such stances (be sure to click on "Other Stances" if you're not comfortable answering "Yes" or "No".) Once you're done, it shows you which candidates your views most closely align with.

My top match was 73% Rand Paul. But my 2nd was... 68% Bernie Sanders. Might be fun to see where others fall on the spectrum.

I did it yesterday...this should shock no one...97% Rubio, was in the 90s on Paul I believe.

Although, I am watching Carly Fiorina...She seems to have more than initially given credit for...
 

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
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In the interest of ratcheting down tension a bit, I found this political survey to be worthwhile. It asks you questions about your stances on a broad range of issues and provides in-depth options for why you maintain such stances (be sure to click on "Other Stances" if you're not comfortable answering "Yes" or "No".) Once you're done, it shows you which candidates your views most closely align with.

My top match was 73% Rand Paul. But my 2nd was... 68% Bernie Sanders. Might be fun to see where others fall on the spectrum.

That's weird. My top match was Bernie Sanders at 91% (did not expect that) and Rand Paul was at 66%.

Not sure what to take from that.
 

ACamp1900

Counting my ‘bet against ND’ winnings
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In the interest of ratcheting down tension a bit, I found this political survey to be worthwhile. It asks you questions about your stances on a broad range of issues and provides in-depth options for why you maintain such stances (be sure to click on "Other Stances" if you're not comfortable answering "Yes" or "No".) Once you're done, it shows you which candidates your views most closely align with.

My top match was 73% Rand Paul. But my 2nd was... 68% Bernie Sanders. Might be fun to see where others fall on the spectrum.

I got Rubio 91%, Fiorina with 85% and Paul with 81%
 

wizards8507

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In the interest of ratcheting down tension a bit, I found this political survey to be worthwhile. It asks you questions about your stances on a broad range of issues and provides in-depth options for why you maintain such stances (be sure to click on "Other Stances" if you're not comfortable answering "Yes" or "No".) Once you're done, it shows you which candidates your views most closely align with.

My top match was 73% Rand Paul. But my 2nd was... 68% Bernie Sanders. Might be fun to see where others fall on the spectrum.
91% Rand Paul
87% Marco Rubio
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
In the interest of ratcheting down tension a bit, I found this political survey to be worthwhile. It asks you questions about your stances on a broad range of issues and provides in-depth options for why you maintain such stances (be sure to click on "Other Stances" if you're not comfortable answering "Yes" or "No".) Once you're done, it shows you which candidates your views most closely align with.

My top match was 73% Rand Paul. But my 2nd was... 68% Bernie Sanders. Might be fun to see where others fall on the spectrum.

That's weird. My top match was Bernie Sanders at 91% (did not expect that) and Rand Paul was at 66%.

Not sure what to take from that.
I take from it that there is some common ground between the progressives and libertarians that does not involve the established portions of both parties. I mentioned much earlier in this thread that I thought a progressive/libertarian ticket could really throw a wrench into the establishment, even though they do differ significantly on how the government is supposed to be involved.

No surprise here:

91% #FeelTheBern
 

Emcee77

latress on the men-jay
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Did you read the de Boer article? Bans on same-sex unions are relics of a Christian understanding of marriage. So are bans on polygamy. SCOTUS just threw out the former as incompatible with the Equal Protection clause, so why not the latter as well? Polyamorous groups are being excluded from the tax and legal benefits of publicly recognized relationships.



From the 2nd paragraph of Oppenheimer's article:



So if opposition to marriage equality comes to be seen as a violation of "fundamental national public policy", then religious organizations that profess orthodox Christian sexual ethics will be ripe targets for having their tax exempt status revoked. Oppenheimer goes on to make a laughably poor argument about how society would be better off if we just went ahead and forced all religious organizations to be treated as normal corporations anyway. But he basically concedes my argument in the first paragraphs of his article.

I still don't see, on either issue. So what if SCOTUS threw out the Christian basis of marriage? Where's the equal protection issue if NO ONE can have a polyamorous marriage? I don't see any problem with defining marriage as a relationship between 2 people, not 3 or more, but I did and do see the problem with defining it as a relationship between a man and a woman. Gay couples only wanted marriage the way other people celebrate and enjoy it; a polyamorous group to get to do something that no one gets to do.

I don't see how the Bob Jones case is going to apply. "Religious organizations that profess orthodox Christian sexual ethics will be ripe targets ..." Why can't they profess whatever they want? They have to do more than that to run afoul of the 14th Amendment, and likely the IRS as well.

Bob Jones U was refusing to admit students in an interracial relationship, right? Are you talking about religious schools that might refuse to admit gay students? I tend to think that schools should not be allowed to refuse them admission, but I'm not aware of any that do. I also tend to think that religious schools should be able to require their students to live by "orthodox Christian sexual ethics." For most students, that won't amount to any sexual-orientation-based difference anyway; there aren't that many married students. I'm not seeing what's so horrible.
 

wizards8507

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I still don't see, on either issue. So what if SCOTUS threw out the Christian basis of marriage? Where's the equal protection issue if NO ONE can have a polyamorous marriage? I don't see any problem with defining marriage as a relationship between 2 people, not 3 or more, but I did and do see the problem with defining it as a relationship between a man and a woman. Gay couples only wanted marriage the way other people celebrate and enjoy it; a polyamorous group to get to do something that no one gets to do.
The SSM argument has always been based on "love." Marriage is "love," and on and on. A polyamorous group can make the same argument.

Bob Jones U was refusing to admit students in an interracial relationship, right? Are you talking about religious schools that might refuse to admit gay students? I tend to think that schools should not be allowed to refuse them admission, but I'm not aware of any that do. I also tend to think that religious schools should be able to require their students to live by "orthodox Christian sexual ethics." For most students, that won't amount to any sexual-orientation-based difference anyway; there aren't that many married students. I'm not seeing what's so horrible.
Whiskey's example in the past has been a gay couple that wants to use the basilica for a wedding.
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
Bernie: 90%
Clinton: 79%
O'Malley: 69%
Paul: 56%

Everyone else: "no major issues."

Green: 95%
Democrats: 95%
Socialist: 88%
Constitution: 62%
Republicans: 17%

And to think, I was once a die-hard Republican... Yeesh.
 
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NDgradstudent

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I don't see how the Bob Jones case is going to apply. "Religious organizations that profess orthodox Christian sexual ethics will be ripe targets ..." Why can't they profess whatever they want? They have to do more than that to run afoul of the 14th Amendment, and likely the IRS as well.

Bob Jones U was refusing to admit students in an interracial relationship, right? Are you talking about religious schools that might refuse to admit gay students? I tend to think that schools should not be allowed to refuse them admission, but I'm not aware of any that do. I also tend to think that religious schools should be able to require their students to live by "orthodox Christian sexual ethics." For most students, that won't amount to any sexual-orientation-based difference anyway; there aren't that many married students. I'm not seeing what's so horrible.

The 14th Amendment only binds governments, not private institutions, and it only takes one 'violation' to set up a fight. It common to stage a crime in order to have standing to sue the government (this is what happened in the Lawrence case). The IRS can change the rule to forbid any heretofore tax-exempt institution with a policy contrary to "fundamental national public policy" from continuing to receive its tax exemption. Most conservatives do not see same-sex marriage as a "fundamental national public policy," because it has only actually been approved democratically in 11 states and only approved at all in 17 states. We know that liberals feel otherwise, and pretty emphatically. The IRS is not run by conservatives, and in any case will often not be run by conservatives.

It is true that neither Notre Dame nor other Catholic schools (whether universities or secondary/elementary schools) refuse to admit gay students. They do not refuse to admit students in a same-sex relationship. Many schools (not ND) do refuse to hire teachers engaged in such a relationship or attempt to fire them after learning that they are in such a relationship. They all refuse to allow their chapels to be used for a same-sex wedding. You might think that the Basilica of the Sacred Heart is 'safe,' as a 'church,' but what about the many other chapels on campus, such as in the dorms?

Whatever precipitates this, there is no question that an IRS action taking away tax-exemptions from any school that formally opposes sodomy or refuses to use some part of its campus for a same-sex wedding is wholly legal given the current law.

So what about the politics of the issue? There are so many Catholic schools (and other Christian schools with the same teaching) that it would be hard to imagine the IRS denying them tax-exempt status at present. But remember that the country is rapidly secularizing, and secular people are less likely to support to religious exemptions of any sort. The only ways to avoid it are for Congress to abolish the corporate income tax or change the enabling statute to forbid the IRS from denying tax-exemptions to these groups.
 

kmoose

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Now THIS is some funny shit:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=1399c3ab74d0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

phgreek

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Now THIS is some funny shit:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=1399c3ab74d0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

...the commentary was priceless. It would not have been half as funny w/o it.
 

notredomer23

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76% Marco Rubio
a few Republicans
65% Hilary
60% Bernie Sanders
40% Ben Carson, which is ironic because I really like him.

Funny enough, it said I agree with Donald Trump on immigration issues. It also said that for Bernie Sanders, who are on opposite ends of that debate.
 

Bluto

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Took that quiz. Bernie Sanders in a landslide. I have to go take a shower because apparently me, Ben Carson and Ted Cruz agree on something. Lol.
 
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IrishinSyria

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Indeed: who shares the view of the ruling class, and who shares the Christian view of marriage?

So right off the bat, we can all agree that "Christian view of marriage" is not something that should influence state policy, right? Good. Moving on.


If the government is going to define marriage, it should have the right definition. There is a very strong case that if a state is being forced to have a wrong definition it would be preferable to simply abolish civil marriage licenses in that state than participate in a lie. Some GOP states are moving in that direction.

There's a long line of cases, most famously Loving, holding that marriage is a fundamental right. No way a state's decision to stop issuing marriage licenses would survive a challenge.

Obviously conservatives and liberals interpret the 14th Amendment differently. Liberals believe that the meaning of the words morph as needed to achieve liberal policy goals. Conservatives mainly do not: usually, the original understanding plays a role in a conservative theory of interpretation. As far as I know, same-sex marriage was not discussed in the 14th Amendment ratification debates. Pretty easy.

The fatal flaw with this argument is, of course, the language of the 14th Amendment. Obviously, gay rights was not on anyone's radar when it was written- the rights of former slaves was the immediate concern. HOWEVER, the framers of the Amendment chose not to limit their language or specify what groups and what rights they were protecting. Instead they left it open-ended:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The language is not ambiguous. The lesson of the civil war was that for all their wisdom, our founding fathers had not created a perfect union. They had used the lofty language of equality while leaving a substantial portion of the population subservient to others. In 1865, Congress had the wisdom to know that just like the framers had not foreseen the change in attitudes towards blacks, they might not foresee other developments. So instead of writing a narrow law designed to remedy the immediate issues, they wrote an expansive one that could evolve with our country. That's exactly what happened on Friday.

Polyamory is not marriage- so what? Until a couple days ago same-sex marriage was not marriage in most states.

This is factually false (not "most"), but unlike in the case of gay marriage, there's a cognizable "harm" involved in polyamory. As a religious freedom person, I'm surprised you don't support it (or are you only in favor of the free expression of your religion?)

There was no "exclusion" happening in a conjugal definition of marriage, either: nobody was permitted to marry a member of the same sex.
 

IrishLax

Something Witty
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Oh holy shit I got the Benghazi Queen...

74% Clinton
72% Rubio

My bottom 4 are all Republicans... Fiorina, Cruz, Perry, Trump... then O'Malley, which makes sense because that guy was the absolute. fucking. worst. when he ran Maryland.

I also got 78% Democrat and 76% Libertarian.
 
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