Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

pkt77242

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Please read what I said:


Also, I'm NOT talking about FOX or MSNBC viewers. If you're choosing to tune into a cable news channel, you probably have some idea of what's going on in the world and what you believe. Most of those people aren't told what to believe by MSNBC or FOX, they choose MSNBC and FOX because it reflects what they already believe.

I'm talking about the people who don't tune into ANY news channel, have never clicked on Drudge or HuffPo, and spend their lives arguing on Twitter about Beyonce's new shoes.

I think the problem is that doesn't really exist in any meaningful numbers, and that if they do they either don't vote (most likely) or they would vote off of one issue. Your characterization is meant to hit upon a liberal person (only follows the movie starts etc) but isn't it just as likely to find a person who lives out in a rural area that doesn't have great internet connectivity and watches minimal tv, and I would guess that person probably would be easier to sway to the Republican side. You framed it in such a way to make it easy to say that they would vote Democrat but the truth is that they exist for both sides, but I doubt in any great number.
 

Emcee77

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I'm talking about the people who don't tune into ANY news channel, have never clicked on Drudge or HuffPo, and spend their lives arguing on Twitter about Beyonce's new shoes.

Right, I think that's fair enough. I think you said you were referring to "E! viewers" or something like that. I would agree that they are more likely to lean left.

I thought for a moment that you were referring to all low-information voters. I would strongly disagree that they are categorically more likely to lean left. I mean, take for example one-issue pro-life voters. I know, and I'm sure many of you know, many people who know NOTHING about politics and care even less, because all they need to know is a politician's point of view on that issue. Hard to get more low-information than that.

And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that; everybody has to act according to the dicates of his own conscience, and a person's conscience could credibly lead him to that result. But you would have to classify that person as a low-information voter, I'd think.
 
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Cackalacky

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Is the argument about not having to fund an employee birth contol plan not a "fairness" argument? Is the argument that marriage is between one man and one woman and not for the gays to make a mockery of the institution not emotional? For a guy who is making the case for his views to be intellectually superior to those of the easily swayed left you sure are making a lot of assumptions about why people think as they do. At least that is what me and George Clooney think. lol

Are you interested in joining my US Weekly reading group? Several of my friends get together and discuss the week's bylines. We don't even read the articles. It's ravashing. I am by default the leader of the group because I routinely bring the booklets telling people how to scam welfare and not pay taxes. I get them from Brad Pitts bookstore.
 

ACamp1900

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Ever since I left the democrat party I have tried hard to be a good Republican,... so now I judge candidates solely based on the single most important factor… skin color.
 

GoIrish41

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And I routinely call it out as a steaming pile. It's fundamentally incompatible with a political philosophy grounded in liberty. The true "conservative"* position is that the government should get out of EVERYONE'S personal/sexual/romantic/ lives, including heterosexual people. There should be no penalties nor benefits from standing in a church (or hall or on a boat) and pledging your life to another person.

*The definitions of "conservative" and "liberal" are so perverted these days that it's hard to keep track.

If you call it out, good on ya. It should be called out.

That said I find it confusing that you seem to have an understanding of what "true" conservatism is that the majority of the republican party does not share. You called out fairness and compassion as if they were somehow bad but they are at the heart of what many on the left believe. On the right there seems to be almost constant conflict as to what is at the heart of what is believed ... thus the growing sense that there is no cohesive vision for the future. This can harly be brushed off as the result of media bias. I thi.k I have learned through your posts what you believe but your party does not seem to be as sure of itself.
 

wizards8507

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I think the problem is that doesn't really exist in any meaningful numbers, and that if they do they either don't vote (most likely) or they would vote off of one issue. Your characterization is meant to hit upon a liberal person (only follows the movie starts etc) but isn't it just as likely to find a person who lives out in a rural area that doesn't have great internet connectivity and watches minimal tv, and I would guess that person probably would be easier to sway to the Republican side. You framed it in such a way to make it easy to say that they would vote Democrat but the truth is that they exist for both sides, but I doubt in any great number.
We agree in theory, we just disagree about the magnitude. You're probably right about the rural person being more easily swayed to the right, but I think there are way more low information folks in the cities than there are in the boonies, just based on the raw numbers of there being way more PEOPLE in the cities than in the boonies.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Regarding the origin of Left/ Right political designations, that's touched upon in an article from the The Atlantic I posted here a couple weeks ago. It's a bogus distinction.

Regarding your point about the uninformed defaulting more easily to liberal politics, wizards, I'd attribute that more to culture than nefarious media bias (though the former undoubtedly affects the latter). No philosopher influenced America's founding more than John Locke, the "father of classical liberalism". I'd suggest that the Founders built better than knew by mixing that liberalism with a strong dose of inherited continental conservatism, but as Supreme Court Justices have repeatedly latched onto the liberal nerve at the heart of our founding documents, we've moved inexorably to the left. It was probably inevitable.

And I routinely call it out as a steaming pile. It's fundamentally incompatible with a political philosophy grounded in liberty. The true "conservative"* position is that the government should get out of EVERYONE'S personal/sexual/romantic/ lives, including heterosexual people. There should be no penalties nor benefits from standing in a church (or hall or on a boat) and pledging your life to another person.

That's the consistent libertarian outlook, which is still politically liberal at its core. Which is probably the best that conservatives can hope to achieve at this point (though even that looks doubtful now). I'd argue that the real conservative view of marriage is grounded in Natural Law, and has been recognized in almost every human culture since the dawn of the species.

*The definitions of "conservative" and "liberal" are so perverted these days that it's hard to keep track.

Amen to that. "Conservatives" in this country have no coherent of idea of what they're supposed to be conserving. Progressives v. Reactionary Neo-Liberals would be more accurate labels.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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Ever since I left the democrat party I have tried hard to be a good Republican,... so now I judge candidates solely based on the single most important factor… skin color.

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Cackalacky

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Ever since I left the democrat party I have tried hard to be a good Republican,... so now I judge candidates solely based on the single most important factor… skin color.

This guy gets it. Place of birth and nationality is my biggest issue.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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I want someone to define it because it is nebulous by it's very nature. We Each have our own concept but it is not consistent. It is a fair question or set of questions. It is also pertinent IMO and claiming precedence over a compass should at least have a legitimate reference point.


Being a cognizant and competent ward of the only home we have is not a moral issue or does not have a moral component to it? It's quite telling that you lump poverty, and immigration into the lot that does not have a moral component yet financial issues definitely do. I hope I am misunderstanding because for me it is quite the opposite.

Further you are implying left leaning people and issues have no moral components. This is absurd. Please tell me you mistakenly typed the bottom two sentences. You can't possibly think liberals, which all of us are btw, have no morals?

You are definitely misunderstanding:

Poverty and immigration are specifically called out as having a moral component despite falling in the left-leaning "field of ownership".

Then I made a point to say that financial issues and personal benefit fall to the side in favor of morality first and foremost.

I must've worded it poorly because in essence I was saying that my views are fully formed by my morality. Morality is the sine qua non of my life philosophy and thus determines how I interpret "Left" and "Right" historical viewpoints.

Money and personal benefit are only considered after something has met the morality guidelines by which my life is defined.

It's a bit difficult for me to call pollution a moral issue but I believe you are correct. It's a healthier, more holistic view and may be what is needed for more to jump on the boat but the continued pollution and excessive use of resources simply means we are moving more quickly towards a breaking point: whether that's simply depletion of natural resources or another ice age remains to be seen.

I can assure you my life is ordered towards limiting consumption and minimizing waste.

What do you mean by, "all of us are liberals, btw"?

I perhaps worded it a bit flippantly in saying that all components, outside of immigration and the poor, are only morally considered on the right.

If you would, please define your morality.
 

UmphreakDomer

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wizards8507

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Polish Leppy 22

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how about this crap here--

Roy Moore's twisted history: Islam and Buddhism don't have First Amendment protection, chief justice says (commentary and live chat) | AL.com

seriously F this guy. F that hobby lobby decision.

if your religion discriminates, your religion is hate.

a separation of church and state should exist--it does not and has not for a long time with "christian conservatives"-- whatever that means.

Islam and Buddhism DO have First Amendment protection, so long as the practice of the religion does not interfere with OUR laws.

Hobby Lobby was discussed on here for more than a week. The company is nowhere near discriminatory, they do provide coverage for contraceptives, and no one is forced to work there.
 
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UmphreakDomer

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A+ for ignorance.

you agree that other religions shouldn't/can't reap the reward of the supreme court ruling? this is exactly why this ruling was ridiculous. corporations aren't people and should be given "opinion" or "beliefs". but since they did, all versions of worship should receive same concessions.

A+ for discrimination.
 

Ndaccountant

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Right, I think that's fair enough. I think you said you were referring to "E! viewers" or something like that. I would agree that they are more likely to lean left.

I thought for a moment that you were referring to all low-information voters. I would strongly disagree that they are categorically more likely to lean left. I mean, take for example one-issue pro-life voters. I know, and I'm sure many of you know, many people who know NOTHING about politics and care even less, because all they need to know is a politician's point of view on that issue. Hard to get more low-information than that.

And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that; everybody has to act according to the dicates of his own conscience, and a person's conscience could credibly lead him to that result. But you would have to classify that person as a low-information voter, I'd think.

The question I have is how many people vote this way? My hunch is that the number would make us all uncomfortable.
 

UmphreakDomer

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Day 1 or Week 2 of you being off your meds? Islam and Buddhism DO have First Amendment protection, so long as the practice of the religion does not interfere with OUR laws.

Hobby Lobby was discussed on here for more than a week. The company is nowhere near discriminatory, they do provide coverage for contraceptives, and no one is forced to work there.

Now get back on your meds.

completely aware. i usually lurk but do not post politics on these boards--obviously I'm severely outnumbered. and i'm not very smart. but i make do and i treat people with kindness--until people are treated differently because things that other people have interpreted to be "bad" or "against god's will", again, whatever that means.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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you agree that other religions shouldn't/can't reap the reward of the supreme court ruling? this is exactly why this ruling was ridiculous. corporations aren't people and should be given "opinion" or "beliefs". but since they did, all versions of worship should receive same concessions.

A+ for discrimination.

It's only after one open's their mouth that they remove the doubt of their ignorance. You are unable to understand the clear definitions of the words you use.

But I'll bite: Whose religion is discriminating?

How should separation of Church and state exist? What does that mean in your interpretation? And how does that relate to the issue at hand?
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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^This. It scares the shit out of me how many people are single issue voters (both Democrats and Republicans).

I vote this way in regards to Pro-Life because I believe it is of the utmost importance. I believe that the destruction of conceived children is a total evil and there aren't many greater.

There are scales of good and bad and weight is assigned accordingly.

Each issue does not carry the same weight nor should it for someone who believes in the sanctity of human life.

I'm more worried about the voter who thinks all issues are equal and should be treated accordingly, tallying their candidates as they move through shopping isle of their stances.
 

UmphreakDomer

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It's only after one open's their mouth that they remove the doubt of their ignorance. You are unable to understand the clear definitions of the words you use.

But I'll bite: Whose religion is discriminating?

How should separation of Church and state exist? What does that mean in your interpretation? And how does that relate to the issue at hand?

well, if you read the article the Chief Justice Roy Moore, to me, is using the argument of "creationism" against Buddhism and Islam when it comes to law. that to me is discriminating.

Separation of Church and State should exist in that laws or any other governing doctrine (whether business or political) should not be created with an interpretation of religious text at its core.
now, if someone lives in accordance to gods word, they are already operating under such interpretation. which, is fine, as long as its moral and not exclusionary. such as homosexuality--you may believe it wrong on both a moral and social level, but your opinion lets say in hiring them, is exclusionary. they deserve the job if everything else remains equal less their sexual preference. so, there should not be laws argued for that exclusion, IMVHO.

this is relative because since Hobby Lobby decision--which again, i lurked and am completely ok with out rehashing that discussion--it has opened the doors for these types of arguments to be made. these types of social discrimination in the name of the lord for the use for a business model.

if your pastor or priest or minister is preaching AGAINST the rights of any type of person on any level--then your religious advisor is preaching hate.

take my opinion with, again, a grain of salt-- again--i do not have a law degree. my degree sure as shit is not from ND. you know, that whole not smart thing, i mentioned before.
 

Ndaccountant

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I vote this way in regards to Pro-Life because I believe it is of the utmost importance. I believe that the destruction of conceived children is a total evil and there aren't many greater.

There are scales of good and bad and weight is assigned accordingly.

Each issue does not carry the same weight nor should it for someone who believes in the sanctity of human life.

I'm more worried about the voter who thinks all issues are equal and should be treated accordingly, tallying their candidates as they move through shopping isle of their stances.

But what if those who are pro-life (and get your vote) are also more prone to escalating military conflict or some other issue that puts countless lives in danger?

I am not saying this to be argumentative or to suggest you should change your stance, but rather to point out that it can get really complicated very quickly.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Separation of Church and State should exist in that laws or any other governing doctrine (whether business or political) should not be created with an interpretation of religious text at its core. now, if someone lives in accordance to gods word, they are already operating under such interpretation. which, is fine, as long as its moral and not exclusionary. such as homosexuality--you may believe it wrong on both a moral and social level, but your opinion lets say in hiring them, is exclusionary. they deserve the job if everything else remains equal less their sexual preference. so, there should not be laws argued for that exclusion, IMVHO.

You've defined "religious liberty" down to the thoughts in one's head and which Church one chooses to attend on Sunday. Might as well get rid of it, then. If I have to check my sincerely held religious beliefs any and every time I step into the public sphere, I'm not really free to practice it, am I?

this is relative because since Hobby Lobby decision--which again, i lurked and am completely ok with out rehashing that discussion--it has opened the doors for these types of arguments to be made. these types of social discrimination in the name of the lord for the use for a business model.

The Hobby Lobby case only became an issue because the Federal government has become a leviathan that regulates virtually every aspect of every American's life. If we had the limited Federal government of specifically enumerated powers described in the Constitution, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

if your pastor or priest or minister is preaching AGAINST the rights of any type of person on any level--then your religious advisor is preaching hate.

The sphere of "rights" we're talking about here is ridiculously broad. This is a big reason why American civil society is withering away. Any time an individual's "right" to something is infringed, the Feds decide to swoop in. This will ultimately end in an atomized society of alienated individuals completely dependent on the Federal government for everything.

take my opinion with, again, a grain of salt-- again--i do not have a law degree. my degree sure as shit is not from ND. you know, that whole not smart thing, i mentioned before.

There's no need to self-deprecate like this. You've articulated a secular liberal opinion that is widely shared in this country.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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But what if those who are pro-life (and get your vote) are also more prone to escalating military conflict or some other issue that puts countless lives in danger?

I am not saying this to be argumentative or to suggest you should change your stance, but rather to point out that it can get really complicated very quickly.

And it does get difficult very quickly. If a candidate has a history for supporting wars then that would have to be weighed but the possibility of war and human destruction vs the known destruction of human life is a bit easier to reconcile for someone like me.

Perhaps there is another scenario I haven't considered, ie - where a candidate publicly ran behind the idea of taking us to war but I've never seen such a proclamation.

As I said, each topic gets reviewed and is given weight. I don't simply stop at Pro-Life and make my choice but it carries a lot of weight. Often people shrug the issue off because it's become so common place but I'm not going to allow the familiarity of the issue dull my response to it.

I wouldn't lose my fervor if we began weighing the value of human lives with restricted resources and reducing the number at hand. Commonplace evil is just as evil, despite it's constant presence.
 

pkt77242

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I vote this way in regards to Pro-Life because I believe it is of the utmost importance. I believe that the destruction of conceived children is a total evil and there aren't many greater.

There are scales of good and bad and weight is assigned accordingly.

Each issue does not carry the same weight
nor should it for someone who believes in the sanctity of human life.

I'm more worried about the voter who thinks all issues are equal and should be treated accordingly, tallying their candidates as they move through shopping isle of their stances.

I never said that. I take a number of items into account when voting but they don't all have the same weight. Some things are more important and some things are less.
 

ACamp1900

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The question I have is how many people vote this way? My hunch is that the number would make us all uncomfortable.

I know many people who vote according to a single issue or two... and that's just those who actually know enough to even follow one or two issues... most know nothing other than BS 'good guy/bad guy' labels that have been passed down through their families… and literally nothing else at all that could pass the political IQ sniff test.
 

AvesEvo

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What constitutes mainstream? Fox certainly isn't leftist. CNN is vanilla. MSNBC is but no one watches them. I don't see it.

Hell I am a progressive person and I can't find any "news" programs I enjoy watching or would even consider to accurately portray a leftist position.

Its why I watch BBC if I want real news. All we get here is straight propoganda.

Al Jazeera English. Al Jazeera America is crap.
 

Whiskeyjack

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AmCon's Rod Dreher just published an article titled "The Church of Illiberal Liberalism":

Damon Linker is alarmed by the Error Has No Rights militants of the left. Excerpt:

Where have been all the outraged liberals taking a stand against these and manyother examples of dogmatism — and doing so in the name of liberalism? I’ve been doing that in my own writing. And I’ve appreciated the occasional expressions of modest support from a handful of liberal readers. But what about the rest of you?

Linker has a theory about why liberalism in the current moment has gone from being a practical way of managing political and social life in a pluralist democracy to being increasingly intolerant and dogmatic:

From the dawn of the modern age, religious thinkers have warned that, strictly speaking, secular politics is impossible — that without the transcendent foundation of Judeo-Christian monotheism to limit the political sphere, ostensibly secular citizens would begin to invest political ideas and ideologies with transcendent, theological meaning.

Put somewhat differently: Human beings will be religious one way or another. Either they will be religious about religious things, or they will be religious about political things.


With traditional faith in rapid retreat over the past decade, liberals have begun to grow increasingly religious about their own liberalism, which they are treating as a comprehensive view of reality and the human good.

Under traditional liberalism, maintaining religious liberty is of vital importance; under the new, illiberal liberalism, religious liberty is a threat. In her analysis of the reaction to the Hobby Lobby ruling, Megan McArdle says that contemporary liberalism, as distinct from earlier iterations, drives religion out of the public square by abandoning the concept of negative rights (the right not to have to be forced to do something) in favor of positive rights (the right to force others to do something to serve you). Excerpt:

In the 19th century, the line between the individual and the government was just as firm as it is now, but there was a large public space in between that was nonetheless seen as private in the sense of being mostly outside of government control — which is why we still refer to “public” companies as being part of the “private” sector. Again, in the context of largely negative rights, this makes sense. You have individuals on one end and a small state on the other, and in the middle you have a large variety of private voluntary institutions that exert various forms of social and financial coercion, but not governmental coercion — which, unlike other forms of coercion, is ultimately enforced by the government’s monopoly on the legitimate use of violence.

Our concept of these spheres has shifted radically over the last century. In some ways, it offers more personal freedom — sex is private, and neither the state nor the neighbors are supposed to have any opinion whatsoever about what you do in the bedroom. Religion, too, is private. But outside of our most intimate relationships, almost everything else is now viewed as public, which is why Brendan Eich’s donation to an anti-gay-marriage group became, in the eyes of many, grounds for firing.

For many people, this massive public territory is all the legitimate province of the state. Institutions within that sphere are subject to close regulation by the government, including regulations that turn those institutions into agents of state goals — for example, by making them buy birth control for anyone they choose to employ. It is not a totalitarian view of government, but it is a totalizing view of government; almost everything we do ends up being shaped by the law and the bureaucrats appointed to enforce it. We resolve the conflict between negative and positive rights by restricting many negative rights to a shrunken private sphere where they cannot get much purchase.

A totalizing view of government — good phrase. In the new American liberal dispensation, we begin to approach what in modern France is called laïcité – the idea that maintaining the secular nature of the public realm and the state’s monopoly on power requires keeping religion and religious expression firmly privatized. It may ordinarily be understood as the principle of the separation of Church and State, which almost all Americans, left and right, favor. But in France, it is generally taken to mean that religion may be tolerated only insofar as it does not interfere with the state and its purposes. If that’s not a totalizing view of government, I don’t know what is. These different emphases of what secularism is may seem subtle, but they’re important — and we’re seeing them take hold in this country.

Yuval Levin, in his initial reaction to the Hobby Lobby ruling, wrote of this changing:

This is particularly so with regard to the exercise of religion, where we are the inheritors of a long tradition — the English common-law tradition of religious toleration — that has a very mixed record when it comes to protecting institutions rather than individuals.

I’ve taken up this question a couple of times around here in recent years, but to put matters very (very) simply, that tradition was born of efforts to find a way to provide protection for Jews and Protestant dissenters in a nation with an established church but specifically not to provide much protection for Catholics. It did this in large part by distinguishing between individuals and institutions. Catholicism is an exceptionally institutional religion, with massive charitable and educational arms that are Catholic but are not houses of worship and that not only employ but also serve non-Catholics. Such arms are much more rare in other religious traditions, and used to be even more so. This distinction therefore in effect once allowed for broad toleration of just about all religious minorities in Britain except Catholics. It was supported by a line of reasoning evident over centuries, and given expression even in John Locke’s great Letter Concerning Toleration, which is one of the foundational documents of the intellectual tradition of liberal toleration.

The American offshoot of this tradition of toleration has tended to think a little differently about this question, above all because we have not had an established church in the United States. We have tended to take the absence of an Anglican monopoly on legitimate religiously rooted social institutions to mean not that there could be no such institutions at all but rather that different communities of faith could build out different institutional forms and stake out for themselves a variety of roles in civil society and the private sphere. This has meant seeing some groups of people working together, and not just individuals alone, as protected by the various forms of the right of conscience and accepting as legitimate the idea that groups of people, as well as individuals, should whenever possible be protected from forms of coercion or restraint that violate their religious beliefs. And the extension of this attitude to corporations owned and run by people with religious convictions and in the service of those convictions has been perfectly natural.

The Obama administration has been pushing up against this American form of the tradition of religious toleration (which, being Americans, we tend to call “religious liberty”) in an effort to establish a public monopoly on the aims of social action. American progressivism has always wanted to clear out the space between the individual and the state and to confer rights only on individuals, rather than encouraging people to form complex layers of interacting institutions with diverse views of the good that each pursues with vigor and conviction. The HHS mandate, like so much of the administration’s domestic agenda, is intended to turn the institutions in that space, including private corporations, into arms of the government, carrying out the will of those in power.

The Church of Illiberal Liberalism worships a jealous god, who will brook no rivals.

Along these lines, TAC’s Samuel Goldman wonders whether religious liberty is possible in post-Christian America. In a MacIntyrean vein, Goldman says that American ideas of religious liberty emerged in a Protestant Christian context. That is, the ambit of what forms of religious expression it is reasonable to tolerate were judged broadly according to Anglo-Protestant norms. This is why, for example, the principle of religious tolerance was not broad enough to encompass the Mormon practice of polygamy. At some point, lines must be drawn, and the drawing of the lines took place according to Anglo-Protestant norms. Goldman continues:

The problem, of course, is that this world no longer exists. And not only because of secularization or immigration by Catholics, Jews, and more recently Muslims. As Sullivan observes, the American brand of evangelicalism encourages individuals to decide for themselves what religion means to an historically unprecedented degree. So we face the challenge of applying historically and theologically specific concepts of religion, liberty, and so on in a way that obscures their limits and contingency. Thus the knots into which both sides of the Court have had to twist their arguments not only in Hobby Lobby, but also in cases such as Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet.

There’s no obvious solution to this problem. We can neither revive Anglo-Protestant categories in a pluralistic society, nor can we formulate a definition of religion that will satisfy everyone.

He’s right about this. [UPDATE: And I should have emphasized here that the contingent basis for religious liberty -- that it depends on norms set by Anglo-Protestant Christianity -- is a much bigger problem for protecting religious liberty in post-Christian America than many conservatives realize]. As America becomes more secular — that is, as its practice of religion wanes, and the American people’s understanding of what religion is devolves into Moralistic Therapeutic Deism (a protean, highly individualistic creed), the hegemony of the state will push religion farther out of the public square, because fewer Americans will grasp why religious liberty is important. Increasingly, the only religion Americans can understand is the sacred laïcité proclaimed by the Church of Illiberal Liberalism.

And here’s the most important thing to grasp about the Church of Illiberal Liberalism: its communicants do not have the slightest understanding that theirs is a creed, a set of dogmas, a worldview that makes exclusivist claims. They think their ideology is not an ideology, but reality, plain and simple. The book to read to understand where we are and where we are going is James Kalb’s The Tyranny Of Liberalism. The Mark Levin-esque title is misleading; this is a philosophically serious book. From a 2009 interview with Kalb:

Ignatius Insight: You spend quite a bit of time, understandably, in the book defining liberalism and variations thereof. For the sake of clarity, what is a relatively concise definition of the liberalism you critique? What are its core principles and beliefs?

James Kalb: By liberalism I mean the view that equal freedom is the highest political, social, and moral principle. The big goal is to be able to do and get what we want, as much and as equally as possible.

That view comes from the view that transcendent standards don’t exist–or what amounts to the same thing, that they aren’t publicly knowable. That leaves desire as the standard for action, along with logic and knowledge of how to get what we want.

Desires are all equally desires, so they all equally deserve satisfaction. Nothing is exempt from the system, so everything becomes a resource to be used for our purposes. The end result is an overall project of reconstructing social life to make it a rational system for maximum equal preference satisfaction.

That’s what liberalism is now, and everything else has to give way to it. For example, traditional ties like family and inherited culture aren’t egalitarian or hedonistic or technologically rational. They have their own concerns. So they have to be done away with or turned into private hobbies that people can take or leave as they like. Anything else would violate freedom and equality.

More:

Ignatius Insight: You argue that liberalism “began as an attempt to moderate the influence of religion in politics, [but] ends by establishing itself as a religion.” How is liberalism a religion? What are some examples of its religious nature? What significant challenges do these pose to serious, practicing Catholics?

James Kalb: People in authority treat liberalism as true, ultimate, and socially necessary. So far as they’re concerned, it gives the final standards that everyone has to defer to because they’re demanded by the order of the community and also by the fundamental way the world is. That’s what it means to say it’s the established religion.

Like other religions it helps maintain its place through saints, martyrs, rituals, and holidays. A candlelit vigil for Matthew Shepard is an example. There’s also education. All education is religious education, so education today is shot through with liberal indoctrination. Liberalism even has blasphemy laws, in the form of the laws against politically incorrect comments on Islam, homosexuality, and other topics that you find in Europe and Canada.

It also has some special features. Liberalism is a stealth religion. It becomes established and authoritative by claiming that it is not a religion but only the setting other religions need to cooperate peacefully.

The claim doesn’t make much sense, since religion has to do with ultimate issues. The religion of a society is simply the ultimate authoritative way the society grasps reality. As such it can’t be subordinate to anything else.


Liberalism has been successful at obfuscating its status as a religion, and that’s been key to its success. People believe they are keeping their own religion when they give first place to liberalism. What happens though is that their original religion gets assimilated and becomes a sort of poeticized version of liberalism.

You can see that tendency vividly in my former denomination, the Episcopal Church. At least at its upper levels “mission” now means promoting things like the UN Millennium Development Goals. I was in an Episcopal church recently in which the Stations of the Cross had been replaced on the wall by the Stations of the Millennium Development Goals.

That’s not a special oddity of the Episcopalians, of course. You can see the same tendency in all respectable mainline Protestant denominations. You also see it among many Catholics. That kind of assimilation is, I think, the biggest danger to the integrity of religious life today.

Read the whole thing. It’s really important. It is vital to fight in court and elsewhere to maintain authentic religious liberty against the dogmatic advances of the Church of Illiberal Liberalism, but in Kalb’s reading, it is more important for the traditional churches to fight within themselves to maintain their traditional self-understanding, in the face of MTD, which is the only kind of overt religiosity the Church of Illiberal Liberalism can tolerate. This is why Kalb, a Catholic, endorses what I call the Benedict Option:

Still, we’re stuck with liberalism right now. As things are, to live a life as free as possible from its poisons probably does require moral heroism. Certainly it means a break with the usual middle-class lifestyle. I can’t give a lot of useful advice to moral heroes, but it seems likely that a better way of life today will require things like homeschooling and other forms of intentional separation. We need settings in which a different pattern of life can be established. We all do the best we can, though.

I’d add that we all need to work together to build settings in which a normal good life is possible and indeed likely in the normal course of events. That, I think, is what Catholic social action should be about.

If you are not getting yourself, your family, and your community ready for what’s coming in post-Christian America, you are wasting time. Falling back on standard conservative categories of thought will not suffice.

I've added The Tyranny of Liberalism to my reading list.
 
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