Politics

[GoIrish41]

I thought this thread was about politics.

 

[beryirish]

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Archeologists (scientists) have proven on numerous occassions the validity of historic biblical events - places - people

 

[ACamp1900]

I thought this thread was about politics.

Just when you thought a political thread couldn't get worse... I bring you,.... religion...

 

[johnnykillz]

Just when you thought a political thread couldn't get worse... I bring you,.... religion...

I couldn't stand by silent to allow people to take away from truth.

My bad.

I act on my convictions: shame on those standing silently by.

 

[woolybug25]

 

[ohara831]

I love ND Football. Such an easy thing to discuss and enjoy.

When it comes to religion, faith, and your Soul and eternity, such a difficult thing to discuss. If you are talking with someone likeminded, all seems fine. But when you are talking with someone with whom you differ on some key elements, nothing good can come of it. I'm sorry, but this kind of talk can do nothing but get people angry with each other. You start slamming on one person's faith, propping up another, condemning another, etc... no good can come from it. No way you can insult something as personal and importnat as someone's faith and not expect them to feel hurt, angry and resentful.

Did I mention how much I love ND Football?

 

[johnnykillz]

I love ND Football. Such an easy thing to discuss and enjoy.

When it comes to religion, faith, and your Soul and eternity, such a difficult thing to discuss. If you are talking with someone likeminded, all seems fine. But when you are talking with someone with whom you differ on some key elements, nothing good can come of it. I'm sorry, but this kind of talk can do nothing but get people angry with each other. You start slamming on one person's faith, propping up another, condemning another, etc... no good can come from it. No way you can insult something as personal and importnat as someone's faith and not expect them to feel hurt, angry and resentful.

Did I mention how much I love ND Football?

This is wisdom.

I concur.

 

[DoverShores]

Adam and Eve, the massive incest which had to occur in order to foster the human race, and eye for an eye, turn the other cheek, don't beat your slaves too bad, I have seen God's face and was saved, but then John says no man hath seen God. All things are possible but God had some trouble with chariots of iron. They crucified Jesus in the third hour in Matthew, sixth hour in John, et al. There are many works on the subject.

Just to make sure, you attempting to say that these two concepts in the Bible contradict eachother, correct?

 

[Buster Bluth]

I am non-denominational. The bible lays it all out there. It is our guide: his word through authors empowered to teach you. Regardless of time zone.

Well I just don't believe in a literal translation of the Bible. Anyone who has ever played a game of telephone, or witnessed the rumor mill in high school, knows that it is impossible for people to have carried stories verbally for centuries and for them to still be accurate.

It hasn't been proven, to beryirish's chagrin, that any of those events have taken place. There's just no way that two of every animal fit on Noah's Ark. There is no way.

What has been proven is that many of the Old Testament's stories were taught to the Jews when they were in Mesopotamia. Much of the Old Testament is ripped from India/Persia as a result. It's not even unique to Jews/Christianity!

Now, that doesn't mean that there isn't clear evidence for God's existence, it's just called science. Science more or less proves God exists. What the hell was the Big Bang? What happened before that? Where did all of this stuff come from? And my stuff, I don't even mean us. It's simpler than that. What about atoms, what are those made of? Electrons/protons/neutrons you say? Where'd that come from? Keep breaking it down into little tiny waves and whatnot--where'd that come from? Did that exist for eternity!?

There is nothing better than smoking a bowl, putting on some Bon Iver and thinking about God and the universe. hahah It's just the best.

 

[beryirish]

Well I just don't believe in a literal translation of the Bible. Anyone who has ever played a game of telephone, or witnessed the rumor mill in high school, knows that it is impossible for people to have carried stories verbally for centuries and for them to still be accurate.

It hasn't been proven, to beryirish's chagrin, that any of those events have taken place. There's just no way that two of every animal fit on Noah's Ark. There is no way.

What has been proven is that many of the Old Testament's stories were taught to the Jews when they were in Mesopotamia. Much of the Old Testament is ripped from India/Persia as a result. It's not even unique to Jews/Christianity!

Now, that doesn't mean that there isn't clear evidence for God's existence, it's just called science. Science more or less proves God exists. What the hell was the Big Bang? What happened before that? Where did all of this stuff come from? And my stuff, I don't even mean us. It's simpler than that. What about atoms, what are those made of? Electrons/protons/neutrons you say? Where'd that come from? Keep breaking it down into little tiny waves and whatnot--where'd that come from? Did that exist for eternity!?

There is nothing better than smoking a bowl, putting on some Bon Iver and thinking about God and the universe. hahah It's just the best.

Noah's Ark found. Great Evidence.

When you realize and comprehend just how big the Ark was from looking at the pictures and hearing the dimensions then you can see it being feasible.
------------

It has been tested and it has been proved that the accuracy of the bible throughout the years have been accurate with each other. Don't know the technical/smart way to say it but when I was at church this was brought up and proven through video and testimonial evidence...this would negate the telephone game

 

[no.1IrishFan]

How do you know Mormonism is made up?

This is just a snippet of how I know the book is fiction.


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/1w3fVneGCgI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[RDU Irish]

So Romney ahead roughly 52/39 in this poll.

Wisconsin recall election today should be interesting. Having personally witnessed voter fraud in Milwaukee in the 2000 election, I have to agree with Scott Walker when he says there is a 3-4% headwind for Republicans due to fraud.

Everything I know about Mormonism I learned from South Park. Moral to that story is they are good people who are demonized for wacky beliefs. Stan drives it home at the end as usual.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Noah's Ark found. Great Evidence.

When you realize and comprehend just how big the Ark was from looking at the pictures and hearing the dimensions then you can see it being feasible.
------------

It has been tested and it has been proved that the accuracy of the bible throughout the years have been accurate with each other. Don't know the technical/smart way to say it but when I was at church this was brought up and proven through video and testimonial evidence...this would negate the telephone game

You're kidding me, right?

 

[Bluto]

So Romney ahead roughly 52/39 in this poll.

Wisconsin recall election today should be interesting. Having personally witnessed voter fraud in Milwaukee in the 2000 election, I have to agree with Scott Walker when he says there is a 3-4% headwind for Republicans due to fraud..

The claim of voter fraud is a go to GOP boogey man usually used to justify efforts to disenfranchise specific populations (usually blacks and other minorities). Here's an interesting website with a good deal of info on the subject.

The Truth About Fraud

 

[woolybug25]

Good night... sweet prince....

 

[beryirish]

You're kidding me, right?

 

[ND NYC]

all this religion talk....my head is spinning...and here i was just begining to remember/incorporate the "and with your spirit" refrains in mass.

oh well...

 

[Ndaccountant]

Wisconsin.....not close in any of the races.

Wow.

 

[chubler]

Just wait my friend there's one left to be called, a lot can happen with 70% of precincts not reporting, especially if theyre urban.
I voted for walker (full disclosure) but honestly anyone who's been paying attention around wisconsin knew he was gonna win. It's been in all the polls, plastered on the front of the papers...

The margin was the only real surprise. I'm just glad its over.

 

[phgreek]

First of all, I apologize for dropping in the middle of this…new product launch, and I’m dying…one-armed paper hanger going on here. I started to respond a couple times yesterday, and just got overrun. Second, one of my points is all faiths have Warts, however, I won’t Blaspheme my own to make a point about glass houses. Unfortunately, that’s the one I understand. Anyway, since I was dumb enough to engage in this, not willing to point to stuff I know about my own faith, I find myself forced to go get the data on some LDS stuff. Now, since I have a Hobby or two, I am not going to immerse myself in the doctrine of another faith (don’t even do much of that for my own). I did however take a minute to look up a couple things to continue this discussion, but this is where it ends for me…We are flat going to disagree...thats ok with me.

QUOTE=woolybug25;711443]The book of mormon clearly states that American Indians are Jews that are being punished with the mark of Cain. BYoung also banned African Americans from the church because of this mark. This was the case until 1978. This is all fact. Mainly changed in order to continue their efforts to convert poor, undeveloped countries into their religion.[/QUOTE]

…OK…lets back up a second…The reference "Jew” isn't ALWAYS derogatory on its face (anti-semetic). In this case it is used to identify folks by their origin, e.g. house of Israel, or from where they came...pretty common. The story in the book of Mormon I think you reference identified a sect of folks from Jerusalem that end up in America...Lamanites, and” Lamanite” indeed had a negative connotation. They were said to have been marked with dark skin based on their deeds…a far cry from saying they were evil because they had dark skin, or they were given dark skin because they were Jews...lets net it out, Lamanites were said to have hailed from Jerusalem, broke off from another group, and were marked with Dark skin for their deeds. They were to have somehow ended up in the Americas. As well the LDS believe they mingled with the Native American peoples, which to me means they acknowledge not all dark skin people were bad. Couldn't tell if your intent was to say the story portrayed a persecution of Jews, i.e. the anti-semitism reference you made later...anyway, thats not even close to what it was.

I don't know Mormon scripture, but I'd be interested to see the specific passage that says you should interpret that story to mean all dark people are bad for all time...or where anti-semitism plays. The LDS actually claim to be VERY close to the origin of Jewish people, and their FAITHS and peoples all hail from Jerusalem. Those who pay attention understand that, and it makes claims of anti-semitism kinda lose me. You may find a passage that indicates those that were marked were out of favor with God, or something…but I don’t think that extends beyond those people who did the deeds.

So here comes my point about men and interpretation, and their own frailties. Low and behold A MAN, with his frailties (BYoung) seems to have latched on to either the similar Cain and Able story or this story, and used it/them for his immediate purpose. BYoung’s immediate motivation was to stem the tide of people leaving his church to join an offshoot formed by a black man who was a former member. BYoung, the man, issued an angry edict, and the rest is history. The motivation to change a long standing injustice instituted by BYoung may very well have been selfish, and to support missionary efforts...hell I don't know...but neither do you.

Look up the Meadow Mountain Massacre.

Attribution to BYoung is sketchy at best...he guy was a bit tilted in my estimation. But, in fairness, some accounts say he ordered the act...others say he was generally worked up over the Utah War, and his rhetoric may have created an attitude that allowed it, thus he contributed to it. He wasn't actually in Mountain Meadows when this happened, so who knows what he intended.

What you claim either never happened (anti-semitism for one) or doesn’t exist today in the LDS faith (although some of it does exist in the FLDS faith). Conflating the LDS with the FLDS is most certainly an ignorant thing to do…don’t know what the hell you are reading, but WOW. This is not up for interpretation for me…its right in front of me. (I live 30 minutes from SLC, and have a home in St. George which is pretty close to the FLDS folks)…I’ve sought to know the difference, and spoken to those who’ve left both faiths, and even retired investigators who were assigned to the FLDS…I’m quite comfortable with my understanding. The cultish conduct you are dying to hang on Romney…it’s the FLDS dude…and Romney has 0 to do with them. No ties between these groups. In terms of religious text/doctrine…sadly, I’ve never actually read anything authentic originating from FLDS (all I know is what others say), but am told they have similar documentation…not a surprise . But lets take this to the logical extreme…lets say the texts are exactly the same between LDS and FLDS…well, the Quran ***** Bin ***** used is the same one used by about a Billion peaceful Muslims…doesn’t make them remotely alike now does it?

The sum and substance of my issue/argument is not about understanding of the history of faith or religion generally or specifically. Nor is it to pick one, sell one, or kill one. I tried to correct some things you’ve said I believe to be off the mark…but we’ve reached the bottom of my barrel on this topic.

The sum and substance of my issue/argument is looking at the reality of the faith / religion a candidate actually practiced/participated in.

What was said and done when BO was in church with Wright? What did he do? How did it affect his governance. As someone here reminded me, BO chastised Wright in ’08…so what did he do for the stuff Wright said when the light wasn’t on him? Did he contribute to the rhetoric? Was he harder on Wright before the light was on him? I think in that way, faith in practice matters.

You keep talking about what dead guys said and did who never sat in the same church as Romney...never lead when Romney was there. Guys whose conduct and leadership have been gone for 100+ years, and much like all religious leaders...their good is celebrated, their bad covered up. You talk about how Romney's great grandfather was a polygamist...in the end though, the only vestige of any of the bad conduct you claim(real and alleged) that made it to Romney’s time was corrected in 1978...and Romney said he was glad it was. SO WHAT DID ROMNEY DO? What was taught? What did HE participate in? Are there signs of negative things in his governance? I mean lets get right to it…the LDS church had racism going on in Romney’s time, left over from BYoung’s edict…it was also corrected in Romney’s time. Is Romney a racist, or does he seek to correct it? THAT’S THE STUFF THAT MATTERS!

Mitt Romney is not a Polygamist. I'm not represented/judged by any of the things my great grandfather did, nor is Mitt, nor are you. Mitt Romney never did any of the things you place at the feet of MEN who shared, and even lead his religion 100+ years ago. The LDS church Mitt has participated in must have already dealt with any conduct you claim happened in its early history…save the racism issue. The motivations to change most things happened largely before Mitt was born, so its not like he was complicit in behavior or supposed dubious motivations and decisions to change. The LDS church of his time saw injustice and racism and fixed it. As well, the LDS are happy to tell you they change things per guidance of church leadership…in fact they view it as a strength, and somewhat foundational to the LDS religion.

Anyway, IMHO what you are doing is hanging a guy for the sins of his "fathers"... a universally repudiated approach to making any kind of judgment of the person’s worthiness/fitness/ability to do a job. I’d like to think this isn’t being done due to some partisan motivation/convenience.

Look, Mitt Romney has left you plenty of material from which to judge him harshly based on his politics or even his business dealings if you so choose…

As for some of the other things you say…voting in bloc. Ask the LDS presidency how their message on immigration faired. Personally, I think that scared them because MANY simply nodded, smiled, and flat ignored them. I think the Utah immigration legislation stinks, but it is FAR from what the LDS leadership wanted…voting in bloc based on the church leadership’s position being read at church is a 50/50 proposition based on the two times I’ve heard it was done…

And for those of you who decide the term Christianity means anything other than a faith based on the teachings of Christ…we just disagree. I agree there are differences between Mormon practice as relates to god and Christ…but their faith is heavily based on Christ….thus Christian.

I don’t believe as they do…but I’m not going to say they aren’t Christian because Christ is depicted wrong in their “diagram”.

 

[woolybug25]

In all of that long winded response, all I took from it was that you didn't actually read anything about the history of their religion, but rather basing your views on some ideological personal description.

As I said before, pick up some books on the subject, then get back to me.

Finally, just "basing your beliefs on the teaching of Christ" does not make a religion Christian. Instead of going in depth on this, just go back and read Whiskey's previous posts.

Don't make me read another 300 word diatribe of yours until you actually do some research.

[/smooches]

 

[phgreek]

In all of that long winded response, all I took from it was that you didn't actually read anything about the history of their religion, but rather basing your views on some ideological personal description.

As I said before, pick up some books on the subject, then get back to me.

Finally, just "basing your beliefs on the teaching of Christ" does not make a religion Christian. Instead of going in depth on this, just go back and read Whiskey's previous posts.

Don't make me read another 300 word diatribe of yours until you actually do some research.

[/smooches]

Nothing new here...you define things and how they ought to be, I disagree.

Cool we are to the point where we dismiss each other with a little dig and an air of superiority...I'll just skip that part

Later...

 

[ND NYC]

what time is Rochell announcing?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Getting back to politics again, I just found an interesting article on why many working class people vote conservative. Might be worth your time.

 

[JadeBrecks]

I agree. I don't see a bright future for us on the path we're on. I'm curious about the election because I usually lean Republican and I coudn't even consider voting for Romney. Gut feeling: I think Obama wins in a land slide.

Unless Obama comes up with something big I am seeing Romney putting up a good fight. I think it will depend on people who think it will be a landslide. If they dont vote for Romney because they think he will lose than he probably will. If the people who want to see him win or want him more than Obama vote than I think Romney wins. Once again this is assuming Obama doesnt do something at the last second like tell everyone he will forgive mortgages or school loans.

 

[beryirish]

4 more years! 4 more years!

I just thought this wasy funny given STL always plays this GIF




This is just a comical post.....not to stir up conversation again....down Buster...down

 

[Buster Bluth]

It's funny because Hilary would love for Obama to lose so she could run in 2016.

 

[Domina Nostra]

And for those of you who decide the term Christianity means anything other than a faith based on the teachings of Christ…we just disagree. I agree there are differences between Mormon practice as relates to god and Christ…but their faith is heavily based on Christ….thus Christian.

I don’t believe as they do…but I’m not going to say they aren’t Christian because Christ is depicted wrong in their “diagram”.

The issue is not whether Mormons have a "faith is heavily based on Christ." And it is certainly not whether Mormons have a "right" to call themselves whatever they want (they obviously do).

The issue is whether Mormons fit within the meaning of the word "Christian" as it is understood generally by the Christian world. That definition is not anyone with a "faith heavily based on Christ." Just like Indian tribes get to define who is an is not in the Tribe, Christians get to decide who is an who is not Christian. The definition is complex, but well defined:

<table style='font:11px arial; color:#333; background-color:#f5f5f5' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='512' height='340'><tbody><tr style='background-color:#e5e5e5' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.colbertnation.com'>The Colbert Report</a></td><td style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; text-align:right; font-weight:bold;'>Mon - Thurs 11:30pm / 10:30c</td></tr><tr style='height:14px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;' colspan='2'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/59606/february-27-2006/the-de-deification-of-the-american-faithscape'>The De-Deification of the American Faithscape</a></td></tr><tr style='height:14px; background-color:#353535' valign='middle'><td colspan='2' style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; width:512px; overflow:hidden; text-align:right'><a target='_blank' style='color:#96deff; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.colbertnation.com/'>www.colbertnation.com</a></td></tr><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><embed style='display:block' src='http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:comedycentral.com:59606' width='512' height='288' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' wmode='window' allowFullscreen='true' flashvars='autoPlay=false' allowscriptaccess='always' allownetworking='all' bgcolor='#000000'></embed></td></tr><tr style='height:18px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><table style='margin:0px; text-align:center' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='100%' height='100%'><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.colbertnation.com/full-episodes/'>Colbert Report Full Episodes</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.indecisionforever.com/'>Political Humor & Satire Blog</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.colbertnation.com/video'>Video Archive</a></td></tr></table></td></tr></tbody></table>




Your argument is basically a defense of propoganda. If you use a word in public, that has a popular meaning, to describe something that does not fit within that definition, you are deceiving people. Every dictator has a political party that includes the term "democratic" or "people's," and they go on and on about those values even as they undermine them. Its really hard to argue against that kind of stuff because its irrational.

Mormons call themselves Christians and seem intent on being identified as part of the broader Christian world. That is for Christians to debate and decide, not disinterested (or interested) outsiders to impose.

Having said all this, I agree with you that Mormonism today is very different that it was 100years ago, and that Mitt Romney should be based on his actions and professed beliefs, not on what people think Mormonism is really all about. My guess is that Romney's mormonism makes him think a lot about striving to be a better person through living out traditional values. If you don't like traditional values, you probably don't want a serious Mormon.

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

It's funny because Hilary would love for Obama to lose so she could run in 2016.

I think that she would rather Obama win. Then she wouldn't have to face an incumbent in 2016.

 

[JadeBrecks]

I think that she would rather Obama win. Then she wouldn't have to face an incumbent in 2016.

If Obama wins she won't run in 2016. Everyone will be "fed up" with the democrats and vote republican just like they did with voting for the democrats after Bush. Everyone was "fed up" with republicans and wanted something "different" because "nobody can be as bad as Bush".