Politics

[k1ssme1m1r1sh]

Religion should be kept FAR from politics! Period!

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Point is, by definition, Christian faiths all have equal claim to the grace of god, and redemption through Christ...Honestly.

There are roughly 30,000 Christian denominations in existence today. Virtually all of them hold a Trinitarian view derived from orthodox Nicene Christianity. Mormonism does not, which is a big reason why it is considered non-Christian.

As a Deist, that probably doesn't strike you as an important difference, but it's a very big deal within the Christian community. So wooly is right; this isn't a case of mainstream Christians discriminating against Mormons based simply on their idiosyncratic interpretation of Scripture, but a serious difference regarding the very nature of God and human salvation.

You can read about more about the subject here.

 

[irish4ever]

I never thought that I would ever be in agreement w/ ex-pitcher John Rocker ...

Report: Ex-pitcher John Rocker says the devil gets his vote over Barack Obama - MLB News | FOX Sports on MSN

 

[Bluto]

I think one thing that muddies the waters is that Mitt was a bishop in the church. To be fair to Jerimiah Wright being an African American male growing up in the 50's and 60's gives you a pretty good reason to hate whitey. I'm not sure what blacks did to mormons to get the "mark of cain" curse. Anyhow, the religion part is not that big a deal to me. The do and say anything approach such a his statements claiming credit for the auto bailout which he said should not have happened and the fact that he has stated he will repeal a policy that has worked pretty well in his own state that he himself championed is pretty telling.

 

[phgreek]

Every religion has some aspect that other people find hard to swallow. But, like Wooly said, you really have to research this one for yourself to understand it. The real beliefs of this religion is David Koresh type sh!t.

I'm no scholar of either faith...(nor my own for that matter)...but I live amongst LDS folks, and they are by and large no different than any other Christian faith...taking them as they are in front of me today.

Granted I never knocked on the door of the compound in Waco to hang out with Koresh and the dividians...but my experience and little knowledge on the subject says the comparison is meant for the fundamentalist LDS...TOTALLY different deal. They share the "LDS" label, but the differences are stark. They share a common thread dating back to the death of Jospeh Smith...but they are as different in practice as two faiths could be.

And yes I've read the history, I know of the notion that LDs folks believe christ came to the americas, and that he was seen, post resurection, by the native peoples.

I understand the history of the church, and its reference to dark skinned peoples...that argument rages on. Some say racisim, some say mis-interpretation that lead to overt racism that has been corrected. I'm not racist, and neither are any of my LDS neighbors that I know of...they are a conservative lot...thats about it.

The history of Joseph Smith and BY is sketchy, but it seems credible in some places...ie JS burned a printing press, and BY ordered some Chicago style stuff...Seems non-christlike to me, but certainly understandable behavior of men. Alas, as I said...men are frail...even men who lead other men in faith based endeavors.

I can't substantiate much else other than polygammy. I would tell you and wooly to consider the source of the "history" on both sides if you must delve into history to make your judgements (although I find that always leads to hypocrisy). If you know more about the individual authors than the book jacket, you might see some have personal axes to grind...or unsupportable defenses to make. Again consider the source of attack and defense...

...I judge people by deeds that I see in front of ME...historians/christians...all are tainted by the small view of the world based on their beliefs and experiences...and no, I don't think there EVER is an unadulterated history, especially when it comes to capturing the life and times of religious figures...there simply can't be.

And to compare fundamentalist LDS to the "mainstream" LDS is ignorance x 10...they hate each other...fundamentalists are nothing more than a criminal organization engaging in rape, racketeering, and fraud, and using religeon as a cover...the "mainstream LDS" are among the world leaders in humanitarian aid efforts and outreach, and are pretty typical christian folks. Also, if you ever have a natural disaster, a smart man knows an LDS family, because they've got food and water for MONTHS in storage...just sayin.

If you are told something, or read something...seriously...what am I going to say...can't shed light through a closed door...you either have an opportunity to gain your own understanding, or ya don't...guess I'm lucky.

All I can say is the "mainstream" LDS are no more like a cult than any other organized faith...but hey, I'm living in it, so what do I know.

 

[phgreek]

There are roughly 30,000 Christian denominations in existence today. Virtually all of them hold a Trinitarian view derived from orthodox Nicene Christianity. Mormonism does not, which is a big reason why it is considered non-Christian.

As a Deist, that probably doesn't strike you as an important difference, but it's a very big deal within the Christian community. So wooly is right; this isn't a case of mainstream Christians discriminating against Mormons based simply on their idiosyncratic interpretation of Scripture, but a serious difference regarding the very nature of God and human salvation.

You can read about more about the subject here.

I understand the point you make...I know the difference in my practice.

But knowing that does not make the statement you responded to untrue...does it?

 

[johnnykillz]

I never thought that I would ever be in agreement w/ ex-pitcher John Rocker ...

Report: Ex-pitcher John Rocker says the devil gets his vote over Barack Obama - MLB News | FOX Sports on MSN

LMAO!

I'm glad he's calmed it down.

Douche tard. So much coulda woulda shoulda.

The pawn or the king? Easy question.

 

[phgreek]

I think one thing that muddies the waters is that Mitt was a bishop in the church. To be fair to Jerimiah Wright being an African American male growing up in the 50's and 60's gives you a pretty good reason to hate whitey. I'm not sure what black did to mormons to get the "mark of cain" curse. Anyhow, the religion part is not that big a deal to me. The fact that he was such a high ranking member of the church muddies the waters a bit. Anyhow, the do and say anything approach such a his statements claiming credit for the auto bailout which he said should not have happened and the fact that he has stated he is will repeal a policy that has worked pretty well in his own state that he himself championed is pretty telling.

...agree, Mitt has more pressing issues to contend with regarding flopping...those issues I understand.

yup, there were racist components in the LDS faith...now there isn't. I can only see what is in front of me now...and I see no evidence of racism, and I don't tolerate it in my life, so I'd be the first to nail someone...well maybe not first, but you know what I mean.

Yea Wright probably has reason to be angry...not saying he doesn't...but the reference is not to pick on Wright but to point to the concious oversite of Obama's apparent faith history, and what that faith is, and the laser focus on Romney's.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

But knowing that does not make the statement you responded to untrue...does it?

According to the Church, anyone can find salvation through Christ, regardless of their denomination. So in that respect, you are right.

But the sentence I responded to seemed like an attempt to whitewash all differences between Mormonism and mainstream Christianity as irrelevant. Given the diversity of Christian denominations in existence today, it is certainly relevant that Mormons reject some of the few universal and defining principles of Christianity.

So I disagree that Christians who have reservations about Romney's faith are narrow-minded or blind to their own hypocrisy. He would arguably be the first non-Christian president in U.S. history.

Like you, most of the Mormons I know are good people. The modern LDS church strikes me more as a fraternal organization with strong cultural norms (which happens to be very compatible with the American religious right) than a coherent theology. But the differences between Mormonism and mainstream Christianity are real, and to those who believe this is a Christian nation, it is a real problem for Romney.

 

[Buster Bluth]

According to the Church, anyone can find salvation through Christ, regardless of their denomination. So in that respect, you are right.

But the sentence I responded to seemed like an attempt to whitewash all differences between Mormonism and mainstream Christianity as irrelevant. Given the diversity of Christian denominations in existence today, it is certainly relevant that Mormons reject some of the few universal and defining principles of Christianity.

So I disagree that Christians who have reservations about Romney's faith are narrow-minded or blind to their own hypocrisy. He would arguably be the first non-Christian president in U.S. history.

Like you, most of the Mormons I know are good people. The modern LDS church strikes me more as a fraternal organization with strong cultural norms (which happens to be very compatible with the American religious right) than a coherent theology. But the differences between Mormonism and mainstream Christianity are real, and to those who believe this is a Christian nation, it is a real problem for Romney.

I agree with all of this.

But again, I could give a sh*t. The President cannot force is religion down your throat. It has never been an issue. Not with a Catholic, not with whateverthef*ck Obama believes in, never. It's just a nonissue to normal people.

 

[Buster Bluth]

BB, not only do I believe in God, but you and I live due to his grace.

Bless you brother.

I didn't say that I don't believe in God. Realizing that those two stories never happened it not the same thing.

 

[woolybug25]

I understand the history of the church, and its reference to dark skinned peoples...that argument rages on. Some say racisim, some say mis-interpretation that lead to overt racism that has been corrected. I'm not racist, and neither are any of my LDS neighbors that I know of...they are a conservative lot...thats about it.

The book of mormon clearly states that American Indians are Jews that are being punished with the mark of Cain. BYoung also banned African Americans from the church because of this mark. This was the case until 1978. This is all fact. Mainly changed in order to continue their efforts to convert poor, undeveloped countries into their religion.

The history of Joseph Smith and BY is sketchy, but it seems credible in some places...ie JS burned a printing press, and BY ordered some Chicago style stuff...Seems non-christlike to me, but certainly understandable behavior of men. Alas, as I said...men are frail...even men who lead other men in faith based endeavors.

Look up the Meadow Mountain Massacre.

I can't substantiate much else other than polygammy. I would tell you and wooly to consider the source of the "history" on both sides if you must delve into history to make your judgements (although I find that always leads to hypocrisy). If you know more about the individual authors than the book jacket, you might see some have personal axes to grind...or unsupportable defenses to make. Again consider the source of attack and defense...

...I judge people by deeds that I see in front of ME...historians/christians...all are tainted by the small view of the world based on their beliefs and experiences...and no, I don't think there EVER is an unadulterated history, especially when it comes to capturing the life and times of religious figures...there simply can't be.

You act like we are debating some ancient religion. The Mormon church is less than a couple hundred years old. Their history isn't wrote in subjective scripture, it's written in recent history books. There is a TON of information from many different viewpoints concerning the massacres, the racism, the ant-semitism, the polygamy, the institutionalized child molestation. Go pick up a book or use google for crying out loud.

And to compare fundamentalist LDS to the "mainstream" LDS is ignorance x 10...they hate each other...fundamentalists are nothing more than a criminal organization engaging in rape, racketeering, and fraud, and using religeon as a cover...the "mainstream LDS" are among the world leaders in humanitarian aid efforts and outreach, and are pretty typical christian folks. Also, if you ever have a natural disaster, a smart man knows an LDS family, because they've got food and water for MONTHS in storage...just sayin.

Acting like there a ton of difference between fundamentalists and mainstream is ignorance. The major difference is polygamy. This change happened because the US government forced their hands. That being said, it is still practiced in places like Colorado City, UT and in British Columbia. BY and Joseph Smith both had wives under the age of 13. The Book of Mormon specifically condones polygamy as originally written. Mitt's own great-grandfather practiced polygamy.

If you are told something, or read something...seriously...what am I going to say...can't shed light through a closed door...you either have an opportunity to gain your own understanding, or ya don't...guess I'm lucky.

All I can say is the "mainstream" LDS are no more like a cult than any other organized faith...but hey, I'm living in it, so what do I know.

I'm not sure how you can tell me to "consider my source" when you have not considered any source on your own. If you want to disagree with me on any of this, please discredit anything I have brought up with fact. Because as I have said, their religion isn't written in ancient scripture, it's written in recent history. There is a plethora of sources out there to do so.

 

[woolybug25]

I agree with all of this.

But again, I could give a sh*t. The President cannot force is religion down your throat. It has never been an issue. Not with a Catholic, not with whateverthef*ck Obama believes in, never. It's just a nonissue to normal people.

This is untrue. Take Prop 8 for instance (regardless of whether you support or not support it). The biggest contributor to it was the Mormon church. They lied publicly about it until they were forced to report it. The result was in direct correlation of the Mormon church forcing their hand.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/us/politics/15marriage.html?pagewanted=all

They are also one of the few American religious groups that are asked to vote in bloc.

They have a direct, consistent desire to move politics to their viewpoint.

 

[mgriff]

what are some?

Adam and Eve, the massive incest which had to occur in order to foster the human race, and eye for an eye, turn the other cheek, don't beat your slaves too bad, I have seen God's face and was saved, but then John says no man hath seen God. All things are possible but God had some trouble with chariots of iron. They crucified Jesus in the third hour in Matthew, sixth hour in John, et al. There are many works on the subject.

 

[beryirish]

I didn't say that I don't believe in God. Realizing that those two stories never happened it not the same thing.

How do you know they didn't happen?

 

[Bluto]

...

Yea Wright probably has reason to be angry...not saying he doesn't...but the reference is not to pick on Wright but to point to the concious oversite of Obama's apparent faith history, and what that faith is, and the laser focus on Romney's.

Actually, the Reverend Wright thing was a pretty big deal in 08. Obama publicly denounced what Wright said about white folks. If Romney was smart he would give a speech similar to the one the President gave on race and be open and candid about some of the short comings of the LDS church. Not the baloney statements he gave about openly weeping in '78 when the church repealed the policy against blacks being ordained. I can't picture Mitt openly weeping if his nana was set on fire right in front of him.

 

[johnnykillz]

I didn't say that I don't believe in God. Realizing that those two stories never happened it not the same thing.

Then we believe in a different God.

 

[rock_knutne]

Went back and read some of these comments and by the looks of it, religion plays a factor in politics to a certain degree. The very fact that Romney's Mormon faith and Obama's possible lack of faith is being discussed as an issue proves that it matters, to some.

IMO, a candidates ability to govern gets thrown out the window as "the" determining factor of his/her electability.

 

[johnnykillz]

Adam and Eve, the massive incest which had to occur in order to foster the human race, and eye for an eye, turn the other cheek, don't beat your slaves too bad, I have seen God's face and was saved, but then John says no man hath seen God. All things are possible but God had some trouble with chariots of iron. They crucified Jesus in the third hour in Matthew, sixth hour in John, et al. There are many works on the subject.

Some of the things you speak of are parables.

God has never had trouble he hasn't allowed bud.

The incest thing: it is what it is.

Gods law is not mans law. That was a very long time ago, BTW.

I bet you've had a few branches grow back together in your bloodline since then too.

And the hour thing:what time zone are you in? Changing latitude and longitude greatly changes the perception of time. No timex watches back then: but they did have lice. Maybe that knit picker would have been nice to have around back then too. Lol.

 

[beryirish]

Then we believe in a different God.

+1

 

[mgriff]

Some of the things you speak of are parables.

God has never had trouble he hasn't allowed bud.

The incest thing: it is what it is.

Gods law is not mans law. That was a very long time ago, BTW.

I get you've had a few branches grow back together in your bloodline since then too.

Hey man, I'm not here to belittle anyone's faith. The original comment was a guy ripping on Mormonism when I thought he was propping up Christianity. I was mistaken, he wasn't backing Christianity, just ripping Mormonism. I still wanted to comment that while no one would say Catholicism is on the same level as Mormonism, there is plenty that doesn't add up in that book as well. It's called faith for a reason.

I just went off the top of my head, I could certainly get some better examples, but as I said, I'm not getting into a pissing contest in regard to faith. Foreign policy and politics, I'll take that bait all day, but not religion. I generally only comment on these when I see someone bashing another faith and ignoring glaring errors in their own.

 

[johnnykillz]

Hey man, I'm not here to belittle anyone's faith. The original comment was a guy ripping on Mormonism when I thought he was propping up Christianity. I was mistaken, he wasn't backing Christianity, just ripping Mormonism. I still wanted to comment that while no one would say Catholicism is on the same level as Mormonism, there is plenty that doesn't add up in that book as well. It's called faith for a reason.

I just went off the top of my head, I could certainly get some better examples, but as I said, I'm not getting into a pissing contest in regard to faith. Foreign policy and politics, I'll take that bait all day, but not religion. I generally only comment on these when I see someone bashing another faith and ignoring glaring errors in their own.

What you posted was purposely to take away from the bible. It's differences are easily accounted for in my rebuttal: off the top of my head without reading the good word.

There's a lot more to faith than pecking apart the things that don't make sense. Even when everything chimes, there's still that personal relationship and prayer and gifts, and the fact that our wishes aren't always granted. It's a long road. But it beats the alternative.

 

[mgriff]

What you posted was purposely to take away from the bible. It's differences are easily accounted for in my rebuttal: off the top of my head without reading the good word.

There's a lot more to faith than pecking apart the things that don't make sense. Even when everything chimes, there's still that personal relationship and prayer and gifts, and the fact that our wishes aren't always granted. It's a long road. But it beats the alternative.

Well it's not even a valid historical document. It was written decades to centuries after the fact and wasn't even done in the same methods as other histories of the time. You can believe it all you want. There are errors everywhere in the Bible. In regards to the pattern of the wind, the circle that is the Earth, a circle, not a sphere. God creates the light before the Sun when we know light comes from the Sun. It's not historically viable, therefore, it's a book on faith.
It's infallible yet it has allegories everywhere.

 

[woolybug25]

Things are about to get weird in here, aren't they?

 

[beryirish]

Well it's not even a valid historical document. It was written decades to centuries after the fact and wasn't even done in the same methods as other histories of the time. You can believe it all you want. There are errors everywhere in the Bible. In regards to the pattern of the wind, the circle that is the Earth, a circle, not a sphere. God creates the light before the Sun when we know light comes from the Sun. It's not historically viable, therefore, it's a book on faith.
It's infallible yet it has allegories everywhere.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Then we believe in a different God.

Clearly. Catholicism does not mean believing in the literal translation of the bible.

 

[johnnykillz]

Well it's not even a valid historical document. It was written decades to centuries after the fact and wasn't even done in the same methods as other histories of the time. You can believe it all you want. There are errors everywhere in the Bible. In regards to the pattern of the wind, the circle that is the Earth, a circle, not a sphere. God creates the light before the Sun when we know light comes from the Sun. It's not historically viable, therefore, it's a book on faith.
It's infallible yet it has allegories everywhere.

Light is emitted from much more than the Sun the last I checked. Sphere, circle, potatoe potata, tomatoe tomato.

There have been many translations of the bible. I'm certain the Vatican has the OG format for each book somewhere. There are errors in every post you and I place, as we are imperfect and not allowed proofreaders. Our education is much greater than theirs concerning these worldly important issues.

Light isn't necessarily photons also. Once again: parable.

When your heart is right, seek. Until then, I'd steer clear of dooming minds seeking a direction, the seeds you plant are those you'll reap my friend.

 

[Buster Bluth]

How do you know they didn't happen?

How do you know Mormonism is made up?

 

[johnnykillz]

Clearly. Catholicism does not mean believing in the literal translation of the bible.

I am non-denominational. The bible lays it all out there. It is our guide: his word through authors empowered to teach you. Regardless of time zone.

 

[johnnykillz]

How do you know Mormonism is made up?

It may not be: but always heed your next step. Have you prayed about what you argue now?