Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

wizards8507

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Because it is unlikely to happen just as your case. If I am having my wedding, why would a gay couple solicit an OUTSPOKEN anti-gay Muslim photographer on one of the most cherished days of my life.

The scenario hardly holds little weight. Both are cases that are too extreme and impractical for arguments sake. Perhaps a better take would be hold more validity.

It is like saying John Boehner and Mitch McConnell are going to have a RNC at Obama's house. Very unlikely scenario.

Gay couples are actively seeking out Christian businesses in order to stir up controversies like this. They're doing it on purpose. "Take that you bigot... we're going to force you into all kinds of uncomfortable situations to prove how intolerant you are."

I doubt it's the majority but the hardcore activist crowd is absolutely doing this kind of thing.
 

GoldenDome

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Just family owned restaurants and a corner store or two... The hand on incident was in Gardena at a soul food spot, idk know if its still there, this was around 2000 or 2001... Walked in with my friends, all black, and the greeter at the door of all things grabbed my shoulder and asked where I was going? My friends talked him down, we sat for a few tense minutes and then left... Obviously never been back.

WTF, that is crazy. Obviously I cannot relate because I am not white but I have been on the receiving end when I was dating a white girl on the way to Vegas. We stopped at that place called Peggy Sue's and the people in their hated the fact that I was dating one of their own. Not the restaurant, but the customers hated it and ending up getting into a fight in the parking lot. Biggest mistake to stop there from our usually stop at In N Out in Lenwood.
 

IrishLax

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Because it is unlikely to happen just as your case. If I am having my wedding, why would a gay couple solicit an OUTSPOKEN anti-gay Muslim photographer on one of the most cherished days of my life.

Gay couples are actively seeking out Christian businesses in order to stir up controversies like this. They're doing it on purpose. "Take that you bigot... we're going to force you into all kinds of uncomfortable situations to prove how intolerant you are."

I doubt it's the majority but the hardcore activist crowd is absolutely doing this kind of thing.

Wizards hits the nail on the head here. There are plenty of people who do it just so that they can stir up controversy or claim discrimination. It's quite common. Some even do it for profit... such as infamous handicapped people have made a literal career of searching out places without proper ADA compliance and suing them. There was a guy in California who went to a new restaurant daily to check their bathroom and if it wasn't perfectly to code he'd sue them claiming "discrimination" and collect a couple thousand dollars. He's hit hundreds of establishments at this point.

The scenario hardly holds little weight. Both are cases that are too extreme and impractical for arguments sake. Perhaps a better take would be hold more validity.

It is like saying John Boehner and Mitch McConnell are going to have a RNC at Obama's house. Very unlikely scenario.

I do agree with you quite a bit.

Yes, it's unlikely that Neo-Nazis would solicit an obviously Jewish deli... but what if they solicited a caterer with good recommendations that happened to be Jewish? The latter is more pragmatic and maybe better for discussion.
 

GoldenDome

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Wizards hits the nail on the head here. There are plenty of people who do it just so that they can stir up controversy or claim discrimination. It's quite common. Some even do it for profit... such as infamous handicapped people have made a literal career of searching out places without proper ADA compliance and suing them. There was a guy in California who went to a new restaurant daily to check their bathroom and if it wasn't perfectly to code he'd sue them claiming "discrimination" and collect a couple thousand dollars. He's hit hundreds of establishments at this point.



I do agree with you quite a bit.

Yes, it's unlikely that Neo-Nazis would solicit an obviously Jewish deli... but what if they solicited a caterer with good recommendations that happened to be Jewish? The latter is more pragmatic and maybe better for discussion.

For the first, I would argue that barring this person from the establishment is not discrimination simply because that person is trying to willfully cause damage. And second, that person does not represent the entire gay community. The store owner has the right from barring that person from the store, not because he/she is gay but because that person is trying to cause harm and happens to be gay. And again, if one black person stole from my store, surely he does not represent all black people and thus feel the need from barring all black people from my store.

To your second point, it is much more relevant. This is a better argument and does pose some issues. Suppose for arguments sake that the caterer serves all types of food. If I were the Jewish caterer and I were to serve at a neo-Nazi event that incites hate upon myself, I would argue that it is not discrimination because the other party has already established discrimination and hate towards myself. My presence alone might warrant harm due upon myself and would argue that my safety is more important than soliciting the business of an already hate filling event.

Again, the scenario is more relevant, but I think for arguments sake that discriminating against a group that is filled with hatred and discrimination is still far reaching. I would simply argue for my safety.
 

NDgradstudent

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If you don't like the Nazi cake example, go back to my original example: an NRA member wants a sign that says "the right to bear arms is our most important freedom." A local printer who is also a gun-control advocate does not want to spread a message that he believes is both false and harmful. Must he do so? Again, some jurisdictions (such as D.C.) prohibit discrimination on the basis of political affiliation. If you think that the gun-control advocate must produce this sign, then we just disagree about how important conscience is.

As for a gay person not being allowed to discriminate against a Christian, I believe that if the Christian wants some product or service they do not believe that they can provide in good conscience, the gay person should not have to provide it. But folks here have been arguing that, for example, discrimination against "gay weddings" is discrimination against gay people as such (even if someone did not do so in other cases, such as for a birthday card or something). I do not think that discrimination against people on some basis is so obviously the same as discrimination against certain types of products or services that those types of people are more likely to want. Courts will generally see these two types of things as the same. Again, in my view, this not the business of the law. If the gay person wants to refuse service to a Christian on grounds of conscience he should be allowed to do so.

We have heard a bit about how when you incorporate, you no longer have ethical concerns, etc. This is ludicrous. Why do we speak about business ethics? Why do we hold corporations to account for what "they" do? Of course the behavior of corporations reflect the ethical views of their board, CEO, whatever. The government does not simply own you once you incorporate.
 

Bluto

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Did someone a few posts back really try to compare being gay to being a dog owner and or being a drunk. WTF....
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Americans Love Big Hot Suburbs — The Atlantic

If you pretend that the United States is populated exclusively by twentysomething graduates of national research universities, you'll develop the sense that everybody is moving to the city centers of New York, Chicago, San Jose, and Boston. In fact, all three of those metro areas have seen more Americans leaving than coming in the last five years. The cities with the highest levels of net domestic migration since 2010 are Houston, Dallas, Austin, Phoenix, Denver, and San Antonio. Once again, we're talking about Texas. More broadly, we're talking about sprawly metros with fast-growing suburbs in the Sun Belt.
 
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Buster Bluth

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Americans Love Big Hot Suburbs — The Atlantic

If you pretend that the United States is populated exclusively by twentysomething graduates of national research universities, you'll develop the sense that everybody is moving to the city centers of New York, Chicago, San Jose, and Boston. In fact, all three of those metro areas have seen more Americans leaving than coming in the last five years. The cities with the highest levels of net domestic migration since 2010 are Houston, Dallas, Austin, Phoenix, Denver, and San Antonio. Once again, we're talking about Texas. More broadly, we're talking about sprawly metros with fast-growing suburbs in the Sun Belt.

I can't wait for the "see Texas is just the best! Free market! Job creators!" malarkey when in fact the western movement of Americans has been happening since the god damn Mayflower and the southern movement of Americans has been happening for seventy years now.

800px-US_Mean_Center_of_Population_1790-2010.PNG


A lot of planners make the mistake of saying that people moved to the suburbs after World War II, when in fact a more appropriate statement is that people moved to the suburbs as soon as they could, from day one. As inventions made suburban life possible (from cable cars, streetcars, etc to the simple mass production of nails and lumber), people who could afford to live in a home did so. Likewise, Americans have been moving to the South as soon as they could, particularly after the invention of air conditioning. It's also worth noting that movement to new cities falls exactly in line with the thinking of guys like Charles Marohn (a libertarian planner), who would likely argue that these new places are in their first cycle of suburban planning and doesn't at all mean its sustainable or wise. Additionally, it's great that the private sector yeehas in Texas give a lot of credit to the federal government for backing their mortgages and highway development with a slew of federal programs (never mind, they skip that). Suburbanites by definition are the most dependent on the federal government; their entire way of life depends on Uncle Sam.

I think the article also insinuates that rustbelt downtowns aren't actually having a revival. They are, it is ignorant say otherwise. Even in little old dumpy Toledo life not seen in forty years is emerging downtown, via private investment too. Yes, families prefer suburbs (and have for 5,000 years), but even the presence of twentysomethings downtown is something plenty of these cities haven't seen in a looooong time. There are two different trends taking place and this article is poorly written like it's a choice of A vs B.
 
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GoldenDome

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If you don't like the Nazi cake example, go back to my original example: an NRA member wants a sign that says "the right to bear arms is our most important freedom." A local printer who is also a gun-control advocate does not want to spread a message that he believes is both false and harmful. Must he do so? Again, some jurisdictions (such as D.C.) prohibit discrimination on the basis of political affiliation. If you think that the gun-control advocate must produce this sign, then we just disagree about how important conscience is.

As for a gay person not being allowed to discriminate against a Christian, I believe that if the Christian wants some product or service they do not believe that they can provide in good conscience, the gay person should not have to provide it. But folks here have been arguing that, for example, discrimination against "gay weddings" is discrimination against gay people as such (even if someone did not do so in other cases, such as for a birthday card or something). I do not think that discrimination against people on some basis is so obviously the same as discrimination against certain types of products or services that those types of people are more likely to want. Courts will generally see these two types of things as the same. Again, in my view, this not the business of the law. If the gay person wants to refuse service to a Christian on grounds of conscience he should be allowed to do so.

We have heard a bit about how when you incorporate, you no longer have ethical concerns, etc. This is ludicrous. Why do we speak about business ethics? Why do we hold corporations to account for what "they" do? Of course the behavior of corporations reflect the ethical views of their board, CEO, whatever. The government does not simply own you once you incorporate.

I am a firm believer that government and religion remain separate. If I were to organize a new religion that does not recognize blacks as people, would I be able to institute that religious value of racial discrimination based on beliefs? When peoples beliefs are too extreme either way, whether Christian or LGBT, there needs to be a middle ground and I favor in the side of the minority group simply because they less powerful.

Take for instance the Michael Sam draft make out session, people got offended by that, yet I rarely hear about a gay person being offended for a man and a woman making out on tv. The constitution already protects your freedom of religion, but it does not protect you from instilling your religious values into law.

Gay people need to stop discriminating and Christians need to as well.

Christians need to remember the Golden Rule: Luke 6:31 "Do to others as you would like them to do to you."
 

Polish Leppy 22

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I can't wait for the "see Texas is just the best! Free market! Job creators!" malarkey when in fact the western movement of Americans has been happening since the god damn Mayflower and the southern movement of Americans has been happening for seventy years now.

800px-US_Mean_Center_of_Population_1790-2010.PNG


A lot of planners make the mistake of saying that people moved to the suburbs after World War II, when in fact a more appropriate statement is that people moved to the suburbs as soon as they could, from day one. As inventions made suburban life possible (from cable cars, streetcars, etc to the simple mass production of nails and lumber), people who could afford to live in a home did so. Likewise, Americans have been moving to the South as soon as they could, particularly after the invention of air conditioning. It's also worth noting that movement to new cities falls exactly in line with the thinking of guys like Charles Marohn (a libertarian planner), who would likely argue that these new places are in their first cycle of suburban planning and doesn't at all mean its sustainable or wise. Additionally, it's great that the private sector yeehas in Texas give a lot of credit to the federal government for backing their mortgages and highway development with a slew of federal programs (never mind, they skip that). Suburbanites by definition are the most dependent on the federal government; their entire way of life depends on Uncle Sam.

I think the article also insinuates that rustbelt downtowns aren't actually having a revival. They are, it is ignorant say otherwise. Even in little old dumpy Toledo life not seen in forty years is emerging downtown, via private investment too. Yes, families prefer suburbs (and have for 5,000 years), but even the presence of twentysomethings downtown is something plenty of these cities haven't seen in a looooong time. There are two different trends taking place and this article is poorly written like it's a choice of A vs B.

I don't see much malarkey here. Pure numbers. California has a ton of metro areas and warmer climate, but we don't see any CA cities on that list. Sooo we look at cities like Denver and ones in TX and ask what separates them and why they're attracting people. It's the economy, stupid.

I also don't think this was a choice A vs choice B article. All it did was point out which cities are attracting the most newcomers, and the numbers don't lie. We could argue the "why" all week.
 
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Buster Bluth

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I don't see much malarkey here. Pure numbers. California has a ton of metro areas and warmer climate, but we don't see any CA cities on that list. Sooo we look at cities like Denver and ones in TX and ask what separates them and why they're attracting people. It's the economy, stupid.

I also don't think this was a choice A vs choice B article. All it did was point out which cities are attracting the most newcomers, and the numbers don't lie. We could argue the "why" all week.

But that's just it. You're definitely not interested in why. You're interested in smearing liberals and grabbing "Pure Numbers." that seem to back it while you ignore or downplay other factors. Everyone knows Texas has it going on right now and everyone knows it's enormously expensive to own a house in California. It's the economy and a ton of other factors, stupid.
 

IrishJayhawk

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But that's just it. You're definitely not interested in why. You're interested in smearing liberals and grabbing "Pure Numbers." that seem to back it while you ignore or downplay other factors. Everyone knows Texas has it going on right now and everyone knows it's enormously expensive to own a house in California. It's the economy and a ton of other factors, stupid.

Correct.
 
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Buster Bluth

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Here's some pure numbers for him: California tops other states in job growth - LA Times

Total jobs created in the 12 months ending Jan. 31 show California leading other states. California gained 498,000 new jobs, almost 30% more than the Lone Star State's total of 392,900 for the same period.

Florida came in third with 274,100 new jobs, followed by New York with 157,700 and Georgia with 131,900.

"These data explain why so many governors are coming to California in search of jobs," said Stephen Levy, director of the Center for the Continuing Study of the California Economy in Palo Alto. "The state has just set records," he noted in terms of its share of venture capital funding, exports, tourism and tech growth.
 

PerthDomer

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If you go by jobs per person living in the state Texas wins by a narrow margin. California is at a 8.2% unemployment rate vs a 5.6% rate for Texas... It's a little easier to employ more people when the unemployment rate is higher (marginal cost of employment etc.)
 
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phgreek

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I can't believe how racist the Nigerian government is for checking biometrics when someone goes to vote. That's gotta be be 100x more racist than asking for an ID card, right?

Nigeria election: Voting continues after extension - BBC News

Yes because now you are asking someone to bring their left eye and right thumb with them...each, and every time they vote...if thats not the definition of "burden" I don't know what is...man you are being unreasonable about this...

In all seriousness...Biometrric is obviously no burden.

But you will not see biometric identification at the ballot box in our lifetime...and the reason has nothing to do with the reliability of the technology.
 
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Buster Bluth

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If you go by jobs per person living in the state Texas wins by a narrow margin. California is at a 8.2% unemployment rate vs a 5.6% rate for Texas... It's a little easier to employ more people when the unemployment rate is higher (marginal cost of employment etc.)

Totally true, but "by a narrow margin" isn't how the California vs Texas debate is framed, and that's the point.

California certainly has some troubling issues, and so does Texas. California certainly has some strengths, and so does Texas. Life goes on. Politicians and political machinery will never let an exploitable situation go to waste though.
 

PerthDomer

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I mean if you ignore the economy I think Cali seems like the place to be. Amazing landscape the ocean higer education national parks etc. I wouldn't want to live in Texas for non job related reasons. I guess that's why real estate in Cali is so freaking expensive... sigh.

A problem that the budgetary issues in Cali could lead to is an erosion of research output in STEM fields at the UC's. Grad students get really poor compensation compared to peer institutions in large part to balance the budget. Over time UC profs have been poached off by a lot of places. I think at some point you reach a tipping point there which could send Silicone Valley into a tailspin... Another big round of cuts there could hurt more than a lot of people think.
 

Bluto

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But that's just it. You're definitely not interested in why. You're interested in smearing liberals and grabbing "Pure Numbers." that seem to back it while you ignore or downplay other factors. Everyone knows Texas has it going on right now and everyone knows it's enormously expensive to own a house in California. It's the economy and a ton of other factors, stupid.

The unemployment rate in California would probably be below that of Texas if you eliminated the Central Valley. AG and the related industries have been hammered there due to the drought.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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I mean if you ignore the economy I think Cali seems like the place to be. Amazing landscape the ocean higer education national parks etc. I wouldn't want to live in Texas for non job related reasons. I guess that's why real estate in Cali is so freaking expensive... sigh.

A problem that the budgetary issues in Cali could lead to is an erosion of research output in STEM fields at the UC's. Grad students get really poor compensation compared to peer institutions in large part to balance the budget. Over time UC profs have been poached off by a lot of places. I think at some point you reach a tipping point there which could send Silicone Valley into a tailspin... Another big round of cuts there could hurt more than a lot of people think.

I'm actually most surprised that we haven't seen, if not a migration, at least a duplication of Silicon Valley in another state. You would think another state would be able to foster development and provide the economic benefits to lure more tech start-ups. Personally, I loved Denver and thought it'd make a great Silicon Valley II. Given the cost to operate in SV is skyhigh, the incubation costs alone would kill most startups. Now imagine you have an idea and you want to put it through the phases to see if it can succeed. Do you want 6 months in SV or 18 months somewhere else? The problem is that each month is not equal. SV has a ton of perks and provides opportunities to get your product out in a quick-adopting culture.

Couldn't some forward-thinking mayors devise a long term plan to pull more start-ups?
 

Wild Bill

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I'm actually most surprised that we haven't seen, if not a migration, at least a duplication of Silicon Valley in another state. You would think another state would be able to foster development and provide the economic benefits to lure more tech start-ups. Personally, I loved Denver and thought it'd make a great Silicon Valley II. Given the cost to operate in SV is skyhigh, the incubation costs alone would kill most startups. Now imagine you have an idea and you want to put it through the phases to see if it can succeed. Do you want 6 months in SV or 18 months somewhere else? The problem is that each month is not equal. SV has a ton of perks and provides opportunities to get your product out in a quick-adopting culture.

Couldn't some forward-thinking mayors devise a long term plan to pull more start-ups?

Rahm is trying.

Trying to link an article but can't for some reason. Plenty of articles around the web. He gets a lot of support from the tech industry.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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The Federalist's Molly Hemingway just published an article titled "Meet 10 Americans Helped by Religious Freedom Bills Like Indiana's".

And USA Today's Stephen Prothero just published an article titled "Indiana needs to balance gay, religious rights":

After Indiana Gov. Mike Pence signed a state religious liberty bill last Thursday, liberals lined up to ravage this "anti-gay" legislation as a "license to discriminate." Indianapolis-based Angie's List said it was shelving a headquarters expansion plan that would have brought the state a thousand jobs. Hillary Clinton and Apple's Tim Cook objected. Even singer Miley Cyrus weighed in, writing that "the only place that has more idiots than Instagram is in politics."

I support gay marriage. I support anti-discrimination laws protecting lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) citizens. But I also support religious liberty. These commitments sometimes conflict. But it is a sad day when there is so little support for the liberties of U.S. citizens, especially among liberals who should be their staunchest defenders.

Religious liberty took a big hit in a 1990 Supreme Court decision that went against American Indians fired after they ingested a hallucinogen in a Native American Church ritual. A law can prohibit any form of worship, Justice Antonin Scalia argued for the majority, as long as it is "neutral (and) generally applicable."

Outraged over this reasoning, which would have outlawed using wine at the Catholic Mass during Prohibition, Congress responded (nearly unanimously) in 1993 with the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA). Signed by President Clinton, this act instructed the judiciary to return to its prior approach, in which burdens on individual religious liberty would be unlawful unless the government could show that the burden was necessary to achieve a "compelling government interest" and that the law doing so employed the "least restrictive means."

After the Supreme Court ruled in 1997 that the RFRA applied only to the federal government, states responded with mini-RFRAs requiring this "compelling government interest" test in their religious liberty cases. Of these, Indiana's RFRA is the 20th.

There is no excuse for refusing to serve a lesbian couple at a restaurant and to my knowledge no state RFRA has ever been used to justify such discrimination. But if we favor liberty for all Americans (and not just for those who agree with us), we should be wary of using the coercive powers of government to compel our fellow citizens to participate in rites that violate their religious beliefs. We would not force a Jewish baker to make sacramental bread for a Catholic Mass. Why would we force a fundamentalist baker to make a cake for a gay wedding?

For as long as I can remember, the culture wars have been poisoning our politics, turning Democrats and Republicans into mortal enemies and transforming arenas that used to be blithely bipartisan into battlegrounds between good and evil. Now our battles over "family values" are threatening to kill religious liberty. And liberals do not much seem to care.

In a recent speech at Boston University, University of Virginia law professor Douglas Laycock observed that America's sexual revolution seems to be going the way of the French Revolution, in which religion and liberty cannot coexist. Today pro-choice and gay rights groups increasingly view conservative Christians as bigots hell bent on imposing their primitive beliefs on others.

Rather than viewing today's culture wars as battles between light and darkness, Laycock sees them as principled disagreements. What one side views as "grave evils," the other side views as "fundamental human rights." What is needed if we want to preserve liberty in both religion and sexuality is a grand bargain in which the left would agree not to impose its secular morality on religious individuals while the right would agree not to impose its religious rules on society at large.
Any takers? Is it really necessary to pin a scarlet letter on those who believe the Bible prohibits gay marriage? Or might we learn to be satisfied with preserving liberty for ourselves without imposing our ideals (on sex or religion) on others?

Admittedly, there are problems with Indiana's RFRA. For example, it extends religious liberty protections to corporations. But few liberals are up in arms about that. The left sees this law as a blank check to discriminate. But RFRAs are not blank checks. They simply offer religious minorities a day in court, and only rarely do these cases concern gay rights. Recently the Supreme Court employed the RFRA test to allow a Muslim prisoner to wear a beard and in Pennsylvania that same test was used to allow churches to feed the homeless in city parks.

Almost all of my liberal friends disagree with me on this. That is their right. But in my view the Old Order Amish have an equally fundamental right to drive their horse-drawn buggies on Indiana roads. So do Muslim students in Indianapolis public schools who want to be released from class in order to celebrate their Eid al-Adha festival.

Let's not let culture warriors, on either side, sacrifice our freedoms on the altar of the culture wars.
 
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Buster Bluth

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Did any of you guys see HBO's new Scientology documentary "Going Clear"?

I gotta say, it makes the whole conversation of religious discrimination different for me. States should be moving to pull their tax-exempt status immediately.
 

zelezo vlk

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Did any of you guys see HBO's new Scientology documentary "Going Clear"?

I gotta say, it makes the whole conversation of religious discrimination different for me. States should be moving to pull their tax-exempt status immediately.
I just heard about this documentary last night. Would you recommend it? Also, could you clarify your comment about pulling the tax exempt status? Did you mean for Scientology or all?
 
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Buster Bluth

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I just heard about this documentary last night. Would you recommend it? Also, could you clarify your comment about pulling the tax exempt status? Did you mean for Scientology or all?

I watched it last night and was completely stunned. It's like Joseph Stalin founded a religion based on Star Trek fanfiction. The result is an absolutely grotesque mind-control machine.
 
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