Political Correctness thread

NDgradstudent

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You really need to read up on the Supreme Court decisions on this subject. Diversity is of itself a desirable trait in a place of higher learning.

I'm familiar with the Supreme Court decisions on this subject. I don't regard the Supreme Court as the repository of all justice and wisdom. Their opinions are interesting information and binding interpretations of the law; that does not make them correct legally or morally. It just makes them the law. And as we all know, the law can be an ass.

You don't need to have been discriminated or have grown up poor for you to be a more valuable addition to a college than someone of another race. A Hispanic person is inherently a more valuable addition to the school, not just for themselves but for their peers, because they provide a perspective that is underrepresented in a place of higher learning. Asians and whites are not underrepresented and their cultural viewpoints dominate these places. Hence, they are not as valuable to the school. You can call that being "fashionable" if you want, but that's a pretty big misrepresentation of what's going on here.

Why are Asians not underrepresented, do you suppose? Could it be that they perform better on average on the sort of measures that actually matter for success in college?

I don't believe that a person of a given racial group is "inherently more valuable to the school" because of his race. Race is not a simple proxy for political opinion or wealth. In any case, affirmative action tends to benefit the wealthiest members of a given racial group. Blacks or Hispanics that are not poor should not receive these benefits simply because of their race. Income-based affirmative action is at least defensible; race-based affirmative action is not.

This is where you complain that its not fair, that you deserve a fair shake, and where I tell you you're being an entitled millennial.

I'm not worried about myself, I'm doing just fine. I'm worried about firefighters in New Haven, CT, for example, who were denied promotions because of their race and only saw their rights restored by a 5-4 vote.
 

greyhammer90

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I'm familiar with the Supreme Court decisions on this subject. I don't regard the Supreme Court as the repository of all justice and wisdom. Their opinions are interesting information and binding interpretations of the law; that does not make them correct legally or morally. It just makes them the law. And as we all know, the law can be an ass.

The fact that you're familiar with prior Supreme Court decisions is somewhat concerning, to the point that I even wonder if debating with you is worth it, because your original argument chose to ignore the biggest single reason why affirmative action is a legal act. So that whole argument now comes off as extremely "strawman-ish." You basically just said "I'm aware of the other side's strongest point, but I chose not to address it in my original hypothetical because reasons."

I don't believe that a person of a given racial group is "inherently more valuable to the school" because of his race. Race is not a simple proxy for political opinion or wealth. In any case, affirmative action tends to benefit the wealthiest members of a given racial group. Blacks or Hispanics that are not poor should not receive these benefits simply because of their race. Income-based affirmative action is at least defensible; race-based affirmative action is not.

To the bolded, no one is saying it is. There are obviously other measures to help us determine the potential addition of a student, but to ignore something as fundamental and obvious as race when attempting to create the type of culturally diverse classroom that is paramount to a place of higher learning is incredibly PC to the point of pulling a Stephen "I don't see race" Colbert.

Also, at the risk of mischaracterizing your argument, you seem to equate "poverty" with "culture." To be clear, I'm arguing the benefits of an injection of an Hispanic student into a classroom because of the benefits his fellow students will get from his presence and perspective as a Hispanic individual. This advantage would also be apparent for an individual who is poor, because obviously they have an important and unique perspective as well. But I don't see why the Hispanic student has to be poor to contribute his viewpoint.

I'm not worried about myself, I'm doing just fine. I'm worried about firefighters in New Haven, CT, for example, who were denied promotions because of their race and only saw their rights restored by a 5-4 vote.

Good to know your heart is in the right place.
 

Irish#1

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Discrimination is always going to be there regardless of the steps taken by the public or government. Most of the laws and regulations created in the last forty years have been aimed at creating equal rights for everyone, regardless of race or sex. The intent is to give "everyone" the opportunity to be successful, thus eliminating gaps between any given group.

The problem with a lot of these laws is that they discriminate against one or more groups to give a certain group or groups and advantage. IMO the laws should be written based more on financial status rather than ethnicity. Give any poor person regardless of age, race, etc. an opportunity to succeed.
 

GoIrish41

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Affirmative action would not need to be a thing if this nation didn't have an atrocious record of discrimination in the first place. For the nations history whites have had significantly bigger advantages over other races than preferred admission into college. The "poor white people" act is a bit disingenuous. Whites playing the victim in racial fairness arguments is just insultingly ridiculous.
 
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Irish YJ

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Discrimination is always going to be there regardless of the steps taken by the public or government. Most of the laws and regulations created in the last forty years have been aimed at creating equal rights for everyone, regardless of race or sex. The intent is to give "everyone" the opportunity to be successful, thus eliminating gaps between any given group.

The problem with a lot of these laws is that they discriminate against one or more groups to give a certain group or groups and advantage. IMO the laws should be written based more on financial status rather than ethnicity. Give any poor person regardless of age, race, etc. an opportunity to succeed.

Agree. I think the key is "opportunity".
And to GH, IMO and to me,,,, a college is a place to learn and prepare me for a career. It's not necessarily a place to learn morality, political stance, about diversity, etc.. UNLESS that's my choice to study those elements or attend a private school where those elements are part of the fabric of the institution (like ND). If it's a public institution, it should be all about the field you choose to study. If you happen to pick up culture, political views, etc., in the process so be it. Higher learning to me doesn't necessarily equate to anything but higher education. Admission to these public institutions and scholarships should be performance based with financial aid easy to obtain for those with economic hardships. IMO, state colleges should be free to all, but don't get me started on that.
 

NDgradstudent

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There are two main justifications for affirmative action, as we see here: the "diversity in the classroom" justification and the "reparations for past wrongs" justification. There are pretty big holes in both accounts.

To be clear, I'm arguing the benefits of an injection of an Hispanic student into a classroom because of the benefits his fellow students will get from his presence and perspective as a Hispanic individual. This advantage would also be apparent for an individual who is poor, because obviously they have an important and unique perspective as well. But I don't see why the Hispanic student has to be poor to contribute his viewpoint.

Caltech does not use affirmative action in admissions. As a result, it does not have a "diverse" student body. I guess Caltech students are being deprived of something very important for this reason? Because they miss out on the unique "black" perspective on physics?

Affirmative action would not need to be a thing if this nation didn't have an atrocious record of discrimination in the first place. For the nations history whites have had significantly bigger advantages over other races than preferred admission into college. The "poor white people" act is a bit disingenuous. Whites playing the victim in racial fairness arguments is just just insultingly ridiculous.

Let's put whites to one side, then. Asians do not enjoy the benefits of affirmative action -and are in fact heavily disadvantaged in college admissions- even though they have been subject to past discrimination. More discrimination than Hispanics, I'd say, because Hispanics were never put in camps. Why is this justified?
 

greyhammer90

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Caltech does not use affirmative action in admissions. As a result, it does not have a "diverse" student body. I guess Caltech students are being deprived of something very important for this reason? Because they miss out on the unique "black" perspective on physics??

Hilarious that you gave a lecture in the last page on how in a proper argument a person isn't supposed to mischaracterize their opponents argument.

Yes, I was obviously talking about a racial perspective on a set of inflexible scientific laws. Not literature, sociology, economics, political science, education, law, religious studies, cultural studies, history or any other program of higher education that prepares its students to deal with the complexity and diversity of the world we live in. And certainly not one that prepares its students to look at these differences with a sense of perspective and worldliness that is necessary for any person placed in a leadership position. Yeah, I was talking about physics. Nailed it.
 

Ndaccountant

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I would say at this point the need for race based affirmative action has been dwindling. If any affirmative action is needed into the future, it probably should be focused economically rather than racially.
 

greyhammer90

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a college is a place to learn and prepare me for a career. It's not necessarily a place to learn morality, political stance, about diversity, etc.. UNLESS that's my choice to study those elements or attend a private school where those elements are part of the fabric of the institution (like ND).

That's one stance to take, but I disagree. One of the reasons why general education courses exist, no matter what major you choose, is because there are certain things that are important for an individual to learn that aren't concretely "useful" in their day to day lives.

Does the average citizen use their reading of the federalist papers on a daily basis? No. But a reading of those essays enables citizens to think more about the role of government, the danger of tyranny, the power of debate, and the brilliance of our own history. In short, it's not concretely useful on a day-to-day basis, but it makes them better citizens.

In my mind there's more than a little utility for the exposure of different perspectives and cultures, especially if you're going into one of the fields I listed above. But, even if you're going into physics, that exposure gives you a perspective as to the wider world. That perspective is a key aspect of obtaining a higher education.
 

Irish YJ

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That's one stance to take, but I disagree. One of the reasons why general education courses exist, no matter what major you choose, is because there are certain things that are important for an individual to learn that aren't concretely "useful" in their day to day lives.

Does the average citizen use their reading of the federalist papers on a daily basis? No. But a reading of those essays enables citizens to think more about the role of government, the danger of tyranny, the power of debate, and the brilliance of our own history. In short, it's not concretely useful on a day-to-day basis, but it makes them better citizens.

In my mind there's more than a little utility for the exposure of different perspectives and cultures, especially if you're going into one of the fields I listed above. But, even if you're going into physics, that exposure gives you a perspective as to the wider world. That perspective is a key aspect of obtaining a higher education.

I respect your opinion as always, but I did not go to college to get anything but a degree. Did I pick up other things along the way, sure. I had a crazy diverse group of friends , but I was already pretty "diverse" before I got there. I grew up inner city, but was on my grandfathers farm on the weekends growing up. (two very different life experiences).. My friends included just about every race and religion. But that wasn't what I went to school for. I went to get a degree, and move on to a career. Parties, maturity, + a hundred other things were side benefits, but not why I went. Nor did I go to become a better citizen.

The things that irritated me more than anything was going to a class on XXX, and the professor trying to preach his brand of XXX, or views on XXX, more than fact and data on XXX. I remember in an advance lit class, the professor took every opportunity to parlay the lit topic of the week into a political or social agenda (his). I remember wanting my money back.

I do believe strongly that a person with a higher GPA, higher test scores, better performance (in the work force) etc. should not be disadvantaged, denied entry, not hired, not promoted,,,,, because of anything, including affirmative action. I've seen it, and it's wrong... It creates as much bad as it does good. Free higher education IMO is the answer to a lot of problems facing the US. Everyone should have the same opportunity, and everyone should have the ability to continue their education, but not at the expense of others.
 

IrishLax

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NDVirginia19

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Would this be the place to post what all ND Freshman are required to learn regarding White Privilege?
 

NorthDakota

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Would this be the place to post what all ND Freshman are required to learn regarding White Privilege?

That's disappointing. I took a couple of classes at my school for generals that should have been called, "White Guilt/Privilege 101" instead of "Race in US History" and "White Hetero Male from a Traditional Family Guilt" instead of "Families, Relationships, and Marriages"
 

NDVirginia19

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https://www.deanza.edu/faculty/lewisjulie/White Priviledge Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack.pdf

Apparently, in one of the examples, "being able to find foods which fit my cultural traditions is white privilege"

Fucking really???!?!? American food in America? I can't believe it. Must be white privilege.

Also, a personal favorite of mine, "Being able to walk into a music shop and find music of my culture." I guess the author hasn't heard of this hip-hop jibber jabber that's been dominating popularity for the last ten years.
 

IrishLax

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https://www.deanza.edu/faculty/lewisjulie/White Priviledge Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack.pdf

Apparently, in one of the examples, "being able to find foods which fit my cultural traditions is white privilege"

Fucking really???!?!? American food in America? I can't believe it. Must be white privilege.

Also, a personal favorite of mine, "Being able to walk into a music shop and find music of my culture." I guess the author hasn't heard of this hip-hop jibber jabber that's been dominating popularity for the last ten years.

Who the fuck "walks into a music shop" these days?
 

NDVirginia19

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Are you saying that all ND freshmen are required to take a course on white privilege?

The course isn't on white privilege, it's a class called Moreau First Year Experience (They decided this was more important that PE, which I'm pissed because I would have gotten out of PE because I'm in ROTC) but there's been a lot of topics. It's two semesters and worth like 1 credit hour, but it's pretty useless stuff. Some of the topics this semester have been Career Development, Cultural Competency, Spirituality, relationships, discernment -- so its not entirely useless, but 98% of the Freshmen agree it's a waste of time. The one reason I wasn't too keen on voting for Corey Robinson for president because he wanted to make the course focus more on white privilege and police brutality.
 

NDohio

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Agree. I think the key is "opportunity".
And to GH, IMO and to me,,,, a college is a place to learn and prepare me for a career. It's not necessarily a place to learn morality, political stance, about diversity, etc.. UNLESS that's my choice to study those elements or attend a private school where those elements are part of the fabric of the institution (like ND). If it's a public institution, it should be all about the field you choose to study. If you happen to pick up culture, political views, etc., in the process so be it. Higher learning to me doesn't necessarily equate to anything but higher education. Admission to these public institutions and scholarships should be performance based with financial aid easy to obtain for those with economic hardships. IMO, state colleges should be free to all, but don't get me started on that.


I really wish we as a nation could get back to the notion that college is a place to further your education in a way that makes for a more diverse and educated America. When all we do is educate for the sole purpose of preparing for a career it lessens us as a country. The populace becomes less capable of critical thinking and too focused on just the end game. Just my opinion, but the above attitude towards education is part of what makes political correctness a thing. Educating only to prepare for, and further a career, is like teaching to the test.


That's one stance to take, but I disagree. One of the reasons why general education courses exist, no matter what major you choose, is because there are certain things that are important for an individual to learn that aren't concretely "useful" in their day to day lives.

Does the average citizen use their reading of the federalist papers on a daily basis? No. But a reading of those essays enables citizens to think more about the role of government, the danger of tyranny, the power of debate, and the brilliance of our own history. In short, it's not concretely useful on a day-to-day basis, but it makes them better citizens.


In my mind there's more than a little utility for the exposure of different perspectives and cultures, especially if you're going into one of the fields I listed above. But, even if you're going into physics, that exposure gives you a perspective as to the wider world. That perspective is a key aspect of obtaining a higher education.


Pretty funny that you state this in your response. My daughter is currently in her AP US History course, she is really enjoying it and is very interested in what the role of the US Government was intended to be, so she and I decided to download and read The Federalist Papers together. We started Sunday and I really look forward to the discussions we are going to have.
 

NDinL.A.

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Not to be too patronizing, but some points about arguments: you are not supposed to mischaracterize your opponents views ("attacking a straw-man") nor claim that the truth of someone's opinion is determined by some attributes of his person ("ad hominem attack"). Now that we've covered that...

I did not mischaracterize a thing, but…nice try?

(1) I did not 'speak in absolutes' in my post about millenials. It was evident that I was describing a common tendency that many of them have, not a feature that all of them have.

You actually did, at least once. Other times you said many of them and passed it off as if it were fact.

(2) Whether or not I have faced "real racism" does not affect whether or not my arguments are successful.

Your argument wasn’t successful. So you haven’t faced real racism AND you have an unsuccessful racial argument as a guy who has only seen racism on a Law and Order episode. Bravo.

Are you responding to statements that I have said, or to statements that you wish I had made?

Perhaps it was the absolutely ridiculous statement that to be Black or Hispanic is to be a “fashionable minority”, as if being oppressed for hundreds of years or being wronged still today (WAY more often than you’ll ever know) simply because of the color of your skin is fashionable. Or maybe it was the fact that you try to make people feel sorry for white males, as if THEY are the oppressed one in today’s world LOL. Pathetic.

Or most likely it was the “Make America White Again” tattoo on your forehead.
 
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Irish Insanity

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This isn't aimed just at posters in this thread, but we should have a Fight Club thread or section. A spot where posters can go to hash out their differences. No rules, just go at it
 

IrishLax

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This isn't aimed just at posters in this thread, but we should have a Fight Club thread or section. A spot where posters can go to hash out their differences. No rules, just go at it

I actually supported this idea awhile ago and called it "Thunderdome"... but most people (rightfully) pointed out that it would bleed into other threads and cause problems.
 

connor_in

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I actually supported this idea awhile ago and called it "Thunderdome"... but most people (rightfully) pointed out that it would bleed into other threads and cause problems.

JUST LIKE THE REAL THUNDERDOME!!!
 

Bishop2b5

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Princeton University keeps Woodrow Wilson's name on the school despite protests - CNNPolitics.com

Another attempt at censorship by the PC police. Ironic because on many levels Woodrow Wilson was considered extremely progressive. Looks like Princeton got it right while also placating the rabid mob.

News flash to all the hurt little snowflakes: until very modern times, racism/tribalism was the way the world worked. Deal with it.

I'm not a fan of rewriting history to disparage those of the past who held certain beliefs or values that were perfectly respectable and common in their time, but have since become unfashionable. People are a product of their time and generally hold the views they were taught or that were common in their era. That doesn't mean all views or behaviors from the past are OK, as some were clearly wrong even then, but to start wiping out huge chunks of history and condemning those who lived in those eras because their values & beliefs are different than the prevailing views today is unnecessary, dangerous, and counterproductive.
 

Irish YJ

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I really wish we as a nation could get back to the notion that college is a place to further your education in a way that makes for a more diverse and educated America. When all we do is educate for the sole purpose of preparing for a career it lessens us as a country. The populace becomes less capable of critical thinking and too focused on just the end game. Just my opinion, but the above attitude towards education is part of what makes political correctness a thing. Educating only to prepare for, and further a career, is like teaching to the test.

I'd prefer colleges to simply/purely educate (it's up to the individual to choose), and let parents and church teach diversity and values.
If people want to study diversity, or sociology, or politics, etc., in college,,,, by all means let them take a class... but don't wrap opinions, views, and PC cr@p or agendas into required course work.
 

Irish YJ

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I'm not a fan of rewriting history to disparage those of the past who held certain beliefs or values that were perfectly respectable and common in their time, but have since become unfashionable. People are a product of their time and generally hold the views they were taught or that were common in their era. That doesn't mean all views or behaviors from the past are OK, as some were clearly wrong even then, but to start wiping out huge chunks of history and condemning those who lived in those eras because their values & beliefs are different than the prevailing views today is unnecessary, dangerous, and counterproductive.

The cave men where violent, evil people. Ban all Geico commercials immediately.
 

ACamp1900

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If people want to study diversity, or sociology, or politics, etc., in college,,,, by all means let them take a class... but don't wrap opinions, views, and PC cr@p or agendas into required course work.

I think this is the key, especially when the opinions, views and such that are being required aren't a diverse set.
 

kmoose

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The course isn't on white privilege, it's a class called Moreau First Year Experience (They decided this was more important that PE, which I'm pissed because I would have gotten out of PE because I'm in ROTC) but there's been a lot of topics. It's two semesters and worth like 1 credit hour, but it's pretty useless stuff. Some of the topics this semester have been Career Development, Cultural Competency, Spirituality, relationships, discernment -- so its not entirely useless, but 98% of the Freshmen agree it's a waste of time. The one reason I wasn't too keen on voting for Corey Robinson for president because he wanted to make the course focus more on white privilege and police brutality.

Which branch?
 

Whiskeyjack

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I respect your opinion as always, but I did not go to college to get anything but a degree. Did I pick up other things along the way, sure. I had a crazy diverse group of friends , but I was already pretty "diverse" before I got there. I grew up inner city, but was on my grandfathers farm on the weekends growing up. (two very different life experiences).. My friends included just about every race and religion. But that wasn't what I went to school for. I went to get a degree, and move on to a career. Parties, maturity, + a hundred other things were side benefits, but not why I went. Nor did I go to become a better citizen.

The things that irritated me more than anything was going to a class on XXX, and the professor trying to preach his brand of XXX, or views on XXX, more than fact and data on XXX. I remember in an advance lit class, the professor took every opportunity to parlay the lit topic of the week into a political or social agenda (his). I remember wanting my money back.

I think it would be helpful to explain what we mean by "education". Vocational training and liberal arts schooling, especially at the post-secondary level, are very different things. The former is very practical and, as you've argued, shouldn't place much emphasis on politics, philosophy, etc. It's also the only form of education that most people should be pursuing past high school. Conversely, the latter is very theoretical, and because it often lacks practical application, is an inherently elite good. When it was invented by the Greeks, it was intended to teach the future rulers of the city-state about what is Good, True and Beautiful, so that they could one day exercise their franchise responsibly in the Senate.

Unfortunately, modern America is the land of participation ribbons and special snowflakes, so we don't do a good job of distinguishing between those two types of education. And a lot of kids end up deep in debt with impractical degrees as a result.

That's one stance to take, but I disagree. One of the reasons why general education courses exist, no matter what major you choose, is because there are certain things that are important for an individual to learn that aren't concretely "useful" in their day to day lives.

Does the average citizen use their reading of the federalist papers on a daily basis? No. But a reading of those essays enables citizens to think more about the role of government, the danger of tyranny, the power of debate, and the brilliance of our own history. In short, it's not concretely useful on a day-to-day basis, but it makes them better citizens.

In my mind there's more than a little utility for the exposure of different perspectives and cultures, especially if you're going into one of the fields I listed above. But, even if you're going into physics, that exposure gives you a perspective as to the wider world. That perspective is a key aspect of obtaining a higher education.

As I noted above, the ability to study those sorts of things beyond high school is a luxury that few can afford. If we, as a nation, feel that every citizen needs to study certain subjects in order to be a good American, we'd better be able to teach it effectively in grade or high school.

I'm not a fan of rewriting history to disparage those of the past who held certain beliefs or values that were perfectly respectable and common in their time, but have since become unfashionable. People are a product of their time and generally hold the views they were taught or that were common in their era. That doesn't mean all views or behaviors from the past are OK, as some were clearly wrong even then, but to start wiping out huge chunks of history and condemning those who lived in those eras because their values & beliefs are different than the prevailing views today is unnecessary, dangerous, and counterproductive.

Makes you wonder how many SJWs have seriously questioned their grandparents on these issues. Does your Nana need to be publicly shamed because she still harbors some ugly beliefs about certain racial or sexual minorities? Probably, since most of them seem to be all justice and no mercy.
 
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