Play Calling

[NDinFL]

Goodson?

 

[Bluto]

Goodson?

Fixed. Anyhow, back to the play calling. Rees on the QB draw! Now that was like a Pearl Harbor level sneak attack.

 

[Downinthebend]

Thats not a QB draw, thats a QB blast <.<.

 

[NDinFL]

Fixed. Anyhow, back to the play calling. Rees on the QB draw! Now that was like a Pearl Harbor level sneak attack.

So crazy, it worked

 

[TheTurningPoint]

With how bad Kelly and our QB's are at getting the play in quickly, we could never run the Oregon no huddle offense.

They get the plays just fine. If you watch any other game, ND is on par with them. Braxston Miller took a delay of game on saturday and he has the almighty urban meyer as his coach. Some of fans forget that football is a very strategic game. Yesterday, every second they could get off that clock mattered. Denard can take it to the house from anywhere on the field. 1 slip or bad angle and hes gone. You want to have that playclock tick down as much as possible. It's not a concidence that even with Rees, they play clock was low...think about it lol.

Comparing ND to Oregon is comparing apples to oranges. Yes, I will say that I thought we might run somethings close to Oregon with 2 back sets and motion. but, davonte/ga3 are far from every down players so having a set of plays like that is a toss up. The other team will know whats coming, and with the Oline struggling those packages probably wouldnt do so hot bc they are getting beat at the point of attack and not getting to the 2nd level. On read plays/jets/options...you gonna have to win the point of attack and get to the second level.

Sure offense is struggling, 3 years ago...Uconn, Stanford, Navy were shoving the ball straight down NDs throats. That isnt happening. Like Ive said before Kelly is building a dynasty. That front 7 play is only going to improve over the years...I mean our LBs are playing well, but next year BK is getting 5 LBs that with athleticism that ND just doesnt come close to having now.

If before the Michigan game u were told...Tommy Rees would play from the 2nd quarter on, Ronnie Stanley would see the field, Baratti would have significant PT, Cierre had 7 carries, Eifert would have 1 catch, and we scored 13 points...you would have chalked that up as a big loss. But ND got that W. Thats what good teams do is they EXPECT to win, and FIND a way to win. The mentality of this team is just unreal right now. They are finishing games and that is what is exciting.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Golson has run the read option a couple times. He has opted to hand it off every single time. Play calling is not the issue. The issue is the QB (Golson) missing guys who are open for six or otherwise and last night throwing it to the wrong team.

This. Golson has the jitters and is missing on throws. Can't do much when that is happening.

What's more realistic, that Kelly has completely dumbed down the playbook and forgotten how to call a football game even after "get used to it," or that the QB needs to calm down so he can blossom within this offense?

 

[NDinFL]

This. Golson has the jitters and is missing on throws. Can't do much when that is happening.

What's more realistic, that Kelly has completely dumbed down the playbook and forgotten how to call a football game even after "get used to it," or that the QB needs to calm down so he can blossom within this offense?

Agree completely with calming Golson down...

Short slants, screens, play action. All of those things help tremendously.

 

[irishog77]

On the issue of hiring a new QB coach: my understanding is that the NCAA limits the number of on-field [practice or game] coaches that you can have on the payroll [if I'm wrong about that, which is certainly possible, then ignore the rest of this]. If so, then we are full up. So, since Kelly has been coaching QBs for a very long time now, who do we fire elsewhere on the staff "that we don't need" to shoehorn another coach in?

Yeah, you're right. ND couldn't just go out and hire a QB coach (or Special Teams coach or whatever). There's a uniform limit set by the NCAA. Maybe 9? I don't think anybody's advocating sh!tcanning a current coach (at least I'm not). It would take several variables to line up for it to happen. Of course this is all hypothetical anyway.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

Agree completely with calming Golson down...

Short slants, screens, play action. All of those things help tremendously.

Im expecting a healthy dose of this and some variety of plays like the one we ran on the 2nd drive where Riddick came in motion and it looked like Golson might hand it off to him. Off that you could hand it to the Rb, hand it to Wr, or run a play action. Just figure out a way to keep the D on their heels.

oh and some PA with GAIII at Rb, preferably.

 

[NDinFL]

Im expecting a healthy dose of this and some variety of plays like the one we ran on the 2nd drive where Riddick came in motion and it looked like Golson might hand it off to him. Off that you could hand it to the Rb, hand it to Wr, or run a play action. Just figure out a way to keep the D on their heels.

Keep them guessing, and in doing so stop any type of over pursuit.

 

[HawaiianIrish]

The best has yet to come folks... I am sure Coach knows what the heck he is doing......

GO IRISH!!!!!!!!!!

 

[irishff1014]

This. Golson has the jitters and is missing on throws. Can't do much when that is happening.

What's more realistic, that Kelly has completely dumbed down the playbook and forgotten how to call a football game even after "get used to it," or that the QB needs to calm down so he can blossom within this offense?

I can agree with this. Golson and Rees both missed wide open recivers that would have been TD's. But you cant count on the shoulds,woulda,coulda.

 

[RDU Irish]

Kelly after the game said he is committed to Golson as the starter (may have said the team is committed). Also said Golson doesn't have 3 exams and two papers due next week, not sure if that was fact or sarcastic deflection. Can't say I have heard a coach offer academics as an excuse before.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Coach has said before that academic pressure is an occasional issue with Everett. Hopefully he'll grow out of that too.

 

[IrishLax]

If before the Michigan game u were told...Tommy Rees would play from the 2nd quarter on, Ronnie Stanley would see the field, Baratti would have significant PT, Cierre had 7 carries, Eifert would have 1 catch, and we scored 13 points...you would have chalked that up as a big loss. But ND got that W. Thats what good teams do is they EXPECT to win, and FIND a way to win. The mentality of this team is just unreal right now. They are finishing games and that is what is exciting.

How much did Stanley play and how did he do? I didn't really see.

Frankly, I don't see a reason to panic over playcalling. First and foremost, I think Kelly was being intentionally stubborn over running the ball to eat as much clock as possible with as little turnover risk as possible. After Rees came in, 3 of the 5 drives were "scoring drives" of ~50 yards if you count the game clinching drive where we went to victory formation on 1st down from the 30. That's not that bad... would we feel better if we'd scored another TD instead of kneeling it out to win 20-6? I think if we're losing and not carrying a 2 score lead that we open up the passing game more and Tommy looks good doing so. In limited passing opportunities he was 8/11.

Bottom line is that Golson's jitters/inaccuracy was the scariest thing I saw... not necessarily the play calling. I had a great angle to see Golson's first INT and Chris Brown... despite getting jammed... had a half step on his defender and Golson just missed. He had a number of overthrows that were also pure misses.... and the second INT was just a flat out poor decision. He's not there yet. Not really even close. Hopefully he does some growing this week as Miami has DBs better than Michigan's.

The most troubling thing to me is how the running game looked silly at times because Koyack/WRs/right side of OL are not getting the job done on the edges. Makes you realize just how much Mike Floyd dominated in the run game. Do we have any replacement for Golic Jr. or Lombard? Because if not the Stanford game will be VERY tough for us.

 

[RDU Irish]

Koyack missing blocks has been a recurring nightmare this season. To the point I was wondering the last few weeks why he is in there instead of Eiffert and Niklas numerous times.

Seems to me Kelly knew going into the game Golson didn't have the prep work needed to succeed, but rightfully understood the need to pass those exams. Only so many hours in a day and Golson does not have the knowledge base reading defenses or knowing the playbook. "Jitters" could also be self awareness that you didn't do the prep work needed to succeed. I credit him for putting his priorities if he was able to take those exams without jitters.

 

[Patulski]

Kelly ran a wide open passing spread offense at Cincinnati and did it at ND last year. We threw the ball 473 times last year, in every imaginable way. We also ran our share of misdirection and reverses. The problem is Rees turned the ball over. A lot.

This year, with a great defense and never being behind, Kelly is managing a low risk offense. Even so, Golson turned the ball over twice against Michigan, which could have been disastrous had Robinson not been so turnover prone himself.

The wide open spread passing offense is in the playbook. The question is (a) who's the best QB to run it and (b) why risk it unnecessarily if you still have concerns about QB turnovers?

 

[ND NYC]

my opinion:

in years 1 and 2 Kelly wanted/tried to have the players fit his offensive sheme.

in year 3 Kelly has realized he has to fit his offensive scheme to his players abilities

BIG difference

 

[Cogs]

They get the plays just fine. If you watch any other game, ND is on par with them. Braxston Miller took a delay of game on saturday and he has the almighty urban meyer as his coach. Some of fans forget that football is a very strategic game. Yesterday, every second they could get off that clock mattered. Denard can take it to the house from anywhere on the field. 1 slip or bad angle and hes gone. You want to have that playclock tick down as much as possible. It's not a concidence that even with Rees, they play clock was low...think about it lol.

Comparing ND to Oregon is comparing apples to oranges. Yes, I will say that I thought we might run somethings close to Oregon with 2 back sets and motion. but, davonte/ga3 are far from every down players so having a set of plays like that is a toss up. The other team will know whats coming, and with the Oline struggling those packages probably wouldnt do so hot bc they are getting beat at the point of attack and not getting to the 2nd level. On read plays/jets/options...you gonna have to win the point of attack and get to the second level.

Sure offense is struggling, 3 years ago...Uconn, Stanford, Navy were shoving the ball straight down NDs throats. That isnt happening. Like Ive said before Kelly is building a dynasty. That front 7 play is only going to improve over the years...I mean our LBs are playing well, but next year BK is getting 5 LBs that with athleticism that ND just doesnt come close to having now.

If before the Michigan game u were told...Tommy Rees would play from the 2nd quarter on, Ronnie Stanley would see the field, Baratti would have significant PT, Cierre had 7 carries, Eifert would have 1 catch, and we scored 13 points...you would have chalked that up as a big loss. But ND got that W. Thats what good teams do is they EXPECT to win, and FIND a way to win. The mentality of this team is just unreal right now. They are finishing games and that is what is exciting.

I agree with you. The D is solid this year, and they won us that game on saturday. But there are so many times we take timeouts and delay of games that are unnecessary. But you have a point. I'm not very savvy when it comes to Offense Coordination. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't remember Weis's teams wasting timeouts and barely getting the play off before the play clock runs out at least 40% of the time.

 

[Jerry]

Comparing ND to Oregon and Golson to Robinson as a runner is ridiculous. But there were a few plays on Saturday where Golson could have ran the ball but chose to throw into coverage. I don't expect Golson to put up DR highlight, 80yd runs but I think they could extend some drives with him at least getting 5-8+ yd runs here and there. When Michigan actually started moving the ball in the 2nd half the Irish contained Robinson but they still moved the chains a few times with that extra threat of the QB gaining extra Yds.

 

[ND NYC]

They get the plays just fine. If you watch any other game, ND is on par with them. Braxston Miller took a delay of game on saturday and he has the almighty urban meyer as his coach. Some of fans forget that football is a very strategic game. Yesterday, every second they could get off that clock mattered. Denard can take it to the house from anywhere on the field. 1 slip or bad angle and hes gone. You want to have that playclock tick down as much as possible. It's not a concidence that even with Rees, they play clock was low...think about it lol.

Comparing ND to Oregon is comparing apples to oranges. Yes, I will say that I thought we might run somethings close to Oregon with 2 back sets and motion. but, davonte/ga3 are far from every down players so having a set of plays like that is a toss up. The other team will know whats coming, and with the Oline struggling those packages probably wouldnt do so hot bc they are getting beat at the point of attack and not getting to the 2nd level. On read plays/jets/options...you gonna have to win the point of attack and get to the second level.

Sure offense is struggling, 3 years ago...Uconn, Stanford, Navy were shoving the ball straight down NDs throats. That isnt happening. Like Ive said before Kelly is building a dynasty. That front 7 play is only going to improve over the years...I mean our LBs are playing well, but next year BK is getting 5 LBs that with athleticism that ND just doesnt come close to having now.

If before the Michigan game u were told...Tommy Rees would play from the 2nd quarter on, Ronnie Stanley would see the field, Baratti would have significant PT, Cierre had 7 carries, Eifert would have 1 catch, and we scored 13 points...you would have chalked that up as a big loss. But ND got that W. Thats what good teams do is they EXPECT to win, and FIND a way to win. The mentality of this team is just unreal right now. They are finishing games and that is what is exciting.

TP so what happened for the MSU game--the VERY FIRST play of the game, Kelly not having a play in, he has a player running in from the sidelines, gets a penatly called-that didnt look very good in terms of "offensive preparation" would you agree?

im not buying your premise that the plays get in in plenty of time and that Golson is simply snapping it late to run clock.
the damn plays arent getting in in time---or EG simply cant figure out what he needs to do out there.
sure we are 4-0 now....things are great...but... this offense has no rhythm and it will bight us in the *** if Kelly doesnt figure it out. and quick. this is the slowest no huddle offense ive ever seen. have the plays ready and let your athletes roll and roll in rhythm. i think Kelly is taking EG out of his flow with all the time it takes to get in the damn plays. still love Kelly but worry about this over the course of a season.

 

[Patulski]

I think everybody can accept Rees' limitations as a QB, but wether it's been Crist, Rees, or Golson, the offense has rarely looked "polished" in 2 1/3 seasons so far under Kelly. Is it all the QB's fault? No. Does this mean the rest of this year and subsequent years will be similar? No, of course not. But maybe Irishpinoy is onto something about Kelly's offense? Or perhaps Bobby D was onto something in another thread when he questioned if ND/Kelly might be better off hiring a true QB coach? I think it's at least worth pondering or discussing.

Kelly's "offense" is vastly different this year. It relies heavily on the tight end and uses lots of 2 and 3 tight end sets, which was rarely the case last year.

A big part of the running game now depends on TE block execution, because teams are stacking the box. The TE must block WR's on WR screens. He must block often bigger Defensive Ends on inside runs and sweeps. This offense opens up TE passes, like the one Golson missed to Eifert. Eifert went in motion like he was going to trap a linemen, then ran stright down the field and was wide open for a sure TD had Golson put the ball in his hands.

What isn't "style of offense" related is the problems we're getting a push from our linemen. We really don't have one dominating linemen. So, defenses hold the line of scrimmage, which forces our RB's to dance around looking for openings, and then defensive linebackers clean up because they aren't being blocked. IT reminds me a lot of what happened with Latina's lines under Weis.

The real rubber will meet the road, both in personnel decision making and scheme, if we get into a game where we get behind by more than a touchdown. Will Kelly stay the course with so many TE heavy formations, or will he spread the field with multiple WR sets.

 

[aaronb]

Unfortunately it's our fanbase

Unfortunately it's our fanbase

I am still trying to make a general understanding of some of these threads; now this one. The play calling that coach Kelly made, which includes all his coaches...... someone please remind me in case I am imagining things, or have been in a coma.... aren't we 4-0? Is a fan-base really quizzing a staff that is on a winning streak and is 4-0 for the first time in a DECADE???!!!???

oh.... it must be me.....

Back in Charlie Weis' last season. You'd get a bunch of old timers complaining about close wins against teams like BC and Pitt. Especially over on BGS when it was still around.

I used to call them the "Back in my day crowd". The same types of people who walked to school uphill, both ways.

 

[Patulski]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't remember Weis's teams wasting timeouts and barely getting the play off before the play clock runs out at least 40% of the time.

That's because when Weis's QB was experienced, Weis either (a) called a "look to me" play which was a run/pass option that Weis quickly made, often resulting in a WR screen to experienced guys like Stovall, McKNight and Jeff S., or he had the QB developed to read the defense and change the play if necessary at the LOS.

But remember when Clausen wasn't experienced and he didn't have experienced receivers? Weis didn't have trouble getting the play in, but his "look to me" plays got stuffed because we didn't have receiver experience, and the QB didn't audible much. Subsequently, our offense was as bad as any ND offense I've ever seen.

 

[TheTurningPoint]

TP so what happened for the MSU game--the VERY FIRST play of the game, Kelly not having a play in, he has a player running in from the sidelines, gets a penatly called-that didnt look very good in terms of "offensive preparation" would you agree?

im not buying your premise that the plays get in in plenty of time and that Golson is simply snapping it late to run clock.
the damn plays arent getting in in time---or EG simply cant figure out what he needs to do out there.
sure we are 4-0 now....things are great...but... this offense has no rhythm and it will bight us in the *** if Kelly doesnt figure it out. and quick. this is the slowest no huddle offense ive ever seen. have the plays ready and let your athletes roll and roll in rhythm. i think Kelly is taking EG out of his flow with all the time it takes to get in the damn plays. still love Kelly but worry about this over the course of a season.

That first play...as explained by BK---they called a play on line 7 but the player was looking at line 6. Not exactly sure how coaches can see through their players eyes. plays are ready hence why they sub WRs almost every play. its a tough combo where you have experienced WRs but have limited experience...then you have a starting qb who through 4 games has had his expected ups and downs. Clausen/Quinn didnt look as consistent as Golson has through their first 4 starts. Clausen got pulled for Sharpley during his freshman year. Then Weis/Willingham realized that you just gotta roll with your ups and downs and prepare for the future bc Sharpley/whoever was there when Quinn was a frosh didnt have a future. BK has a different situation where he does have a qb that is limited but can effectively run a limited version of the offense where ND can still win. Go back to last year...ND is a 10-2 team with Tommy Rees if ND catches a only has 8 TOs in the first 2 games instead of 10. It did happen and we had those TOs but even with them ND was still in position to win those games with Rees. BK knows that Rees isnt the future and he has Golson as the future, but in a game like Michigan where the defense is playing well and the offense is doing enough to keep field position..you got to roll with it.

Believe it or not ALL teams have a series or a few plays where the play does get in late or changed. Its part of the game. I will bet you Oregon, Bama, LSU, Okla, have all had to take a timeout bc of a late play. BK/Martin have won everywhere they have been...they arent suddenly going to forget how to. We could have 3 yards of offense and win every game 3-0 and I would be 100% fine with it. No team looks pretty every week but the good/great teams find ways to win reguardless of how it looks in the boxscore or on tv.

 

[ND NYC]

TP:
i never brought up weis or any other teams offenses.just kelly and ND. so lets keep it focused there.

you feel its ok to have (whatever the reason-you say to drain clock) ND going no huddle, and having folks standing around whilst the play clock dwindles (no doubt putting even more pressure on an inexperienced QB-and to a lesser extent our WRs and TeEs) and EG waitng to get the play, getting snap off at T minus 3 to 5 secs left on the play clock (also helps the D get ready and catch their breath). Me, id rather have them going at a quicker pace to establish some sort of a rhtym for EG and the entire offense.
i worry that kelly in his (understandable) desire to call the "perfect play" for every single down is taking the entire offense out of sync and rhythm...and at the same time giving our opposing defenses time to "get set and organized" as well.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Koyack has been a serious liability for our offense. Kid's not ready for prime time yet. Hopefully Kelly dials back on the 12 and 13 personnel. Hard to justify sitting Toma and Neal for a pair of wildly inconsistent TEs at this point.

I'd also like to see Eifert playing in-line more often. Seems like splitting him out has made it easier for opposing defenses to key in on him and take him away. For whatever reason, we haven't been able to take advantage of the openings that are being created by that.

Also, any thoughts on why Wood got so few carries against UM? That ain't enough. Dunno if Kelly and co. were looking to send a message in light of his alleged shenanigans prior to the game, but Wood absolutely needs more touches than that.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

TP:
i never brought up weis or any other teams offenses.just kelly and ND. so lets keep it focused there.

you feel its ok to have (whatever the reason-you say to drain clock) ND going no huddle, and having folks standing around whilst the play clock dwindles (no doubt putting even more pressure on an inexperienced QB-and to a lesser extent our WRs and TeEs) and EG waitng to get the play, getting snap off at T minus 3 to 5 secs left on the play clock (also helps the D get ready and catch their breath). Me, id rather have them going at a quicker pace to establish some sort of a rhtym for EG and the entire offense.
i worry that kelly in his (understandable) desire to call the "perfect play" for every single down is taking the entire offense out of sync and rhythm...and at the same time giving our opposing defenses time to "get set and organized" as well.

I think the delay is in part because Kelly needs to see the defensive look the defense is showing before he calls the play. Ideally we'd have a QB seasoned enough to do so at the line, but we don't. That extra step is costing time.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

Koyack has been a serious liability for our offense. Kid's not ready for prime time yet. Hopefully Kelly dials back on the 12 and 13 personnel. Hard to justify sitting Toma and Neal for a pair of wildly inconsistent TEs at this point.

I'd also like to see Eifert playing in-line more often. Seems like splitting him out has made it easier for opposing defenses to key in on him and take him away. For whatever reason, we haven't been able to take advantage of the openings that are being created by that.

Also, any thoughts on why Wood got so few carries against UM? That ain't enough. Dunno if Kelly and co. were looking to send a message in light of his alleged shenanigans prior to the game, but Wood absolutely needs more touches than that.

I agree. I think Kelly is going to take a step back with the multiple TE sets and go back to spreading the field. This new look offense is throwing the whole unit out of whack. Also, 8/10 times lining Eifert on the line and having him release to post up on a LB is good for 6-8 yards a pop. I think we'll get back to that.

This is just my opinion, and I am not a coach, so I could just be way wrong. But, I would sit down with EG and ask him where he is most comfortable playing QB. My guess is he'll say hes comfortable when he's rolling out and just playing football without having to do too much thinking. Spread out the field and let your QB play pitch and catch. Let his eyes get used to the speed on the game on his terms while hes comfortable.

 

[North Buffalo Irish]

Any offense is easy to run in college when you have Michael Floyd. We don't anymore.

Eifert is a great player, but he's a tight end. TJ Jones is a reliable senior but he's not a gamebreaker. The same goes for Toma -- good receiver but he's not really explosive. Daniels is young and has been hobbled by that ankle (no one is really talking about this -- he was looking like a true playmaker pre-injury). Brown is fast as hell but is a freshman. The same can be said for Neal. Daniel Smith is a possession guy. Koyack is a struggling sophomore. Niklas has been a tight end for a couple of months.

It's not just the quarterback, though Golson's inexperience and Tommy's shortcomings are major factors. The simple fact is that there isn't a Samardzija, Tate or Floyd out there right now. Eifert is great, but tight ends are complementary players. Until some of the young receivers develop and grow along with Golson, the offense is going to revolve around a conservative running game.

Two weeks off and then a vulnerable Miami defense. Let's re-analyze the offense after that game. Until then, 4-0...