Orlando attack - terrorism suspected

[phgreek]

now there was an attack in the UK, public official shot and stabbed.

British politician Jo Cox dies after attack - CNN.com

yea...some whack job who apparently wanted GB to pull from the EU. No opinion either way on that topic. Dude was angry...stabbed and shot her. How'd he get a gun?

 

[GoIrish41]

And who is responsible for all the above? White people or Progressive/Socialist Democrats?

Everyone who was in power is responsible -- the ones who pushed for policies that created these problems, and the ones who were to weak to stand up to them.

LBJ tore the American Family apart when he replaced the Father with the State.

I don't even know what this means.

Who's politically controlled the urban areas for the past 50 years? Which cities have they improved?

Denver, Seattle, San Francisco, Minneapolis, San Diego, Houston. These are all great cities. Do they have their drawbacks? Sure, everyplace does, but overall these are great cities on the upswing.

The urban plantation is a real thing. So is the prison pipeline, both governmental infrastructure that keeps urban poor in a constant state of illiteracy, poverty & incarceration.

Government infrastructure? The new American model for prisons is privately run institutions. These prisons make profit off of incarceration, and they lobby the government for stricter laws so more people can be thrown in prison so they can make more money. Ain't capitalism grand? The safety net programs that the right is constantly aiming to tear down were put in place to take care of people that nobody wanted to hire, few were interested in providing a quality education to. The year prior to LBJ signing the Civil Rights Act, the right put up their segregationist candidate Barry Goldwater who ran on a platform of white supremacy. Here we are 52 years later, and we have Trump. The more things change ...

I hate today's racist Democratic Party for what it has done to poor people.

I think the middle class started disappearing as a result of Reagan's policies. He kicked off an era of corporate greed with his trickle down economic theory, that never seemed to trickle down. Corporations move jobs out of this country so they could find labor as cheap as possible. Benefits eroded for American families. The Republican Party created more poor people, so when I hear them disparage the poor for being lazy takers who are bankrupting the nation my natural reaction is an eye roll. It's almost like they have a little nostalgic for the good old days when Bigot Barry was on top of the the GOP ticket. Good thing you guys have Trump to lead the charge to Make American Great Again.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Everyone who was in power is responsible -- the ones who pushed for policies that created these problems, and the ones who were to weak to stand up to them.

How about the people who keep electing the politicians who created and perpetuate those policies despite decades of overwhelming proof they DON'T WORK and make things worse?

 

[ND NYC]

SOP from everything I have read. Essentially, they had him on the phone and did not know if the place was rigged with explosives or not. When it became evident that they could get in with an acceptable amount of safety, they did. Honestly, makes sense to me.

I thought a highly trained swat team, loaded with all the latest guns, ammo, equipment, flash bangs, Kevlar body armour/helmets would be an acceptable "amount of safety" to go in right away in a situation like this.
so SOP is to, in effect, "surround the house Clancy" until the entire picture of what is happening is crystal clear before ever engaging an "active shooter" in a school/mall/public place etc?

 

[GoIrish41]

How about the people who keep electing the politicians who created and perpetuate those policies despite decades of overwhelming proof they DON'T WORK and make things worse?

Absolutely.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Experts say there's a big difference between responding to a lone gunman and a shooter who has hostages.

In active-shooter situations, police are now trained to respond immediately, even if only one or two officers are available to confront the suspect. In a hostage crisis, law enforcement generally tries to negotiate.

Orlando Police Chief John Mina said the presence of hostages required officers to "reevaluate, reassess what is happening and make sure all the pieces are in place."

Did a Delay in Police Response Give Shooter More Time? - ABC News

This is similar to other articles I read. Some disagree.

 

[goldandblue]

Everyone who was in power is responsible -- the ones who pushed for policies that created these problems, and the ones who were to weak to stand up to them.



I don't even know what this means.


Denver, Seattle, San Francisco, Minneapolis, San Diego, Houston. These are all great cities. Do they have their drawbacks? Sure, everyplace does, but overall these are great cities on the upswing.



Government infrastructure? The new American model for prisons is privately run institutions. These prisons make profit off of incarceration, and they lobby the government for stricter laws so more people can be thrown in prison so they can make more money. Ain't capitalism grand? The safety net programs that the right is constantly aiming to tear down were put in place to take care of people that nobody wanted to hire, few were interested in providing a quality education to. The year prior to LBJ signing the Civil Rights Act, the right put up their segregationist candidate Barry Goldwater who ran on a platform of white supremacy. Here we are 52 years later, and we have Trump. The more things change ...




I think the middle class started disappearing as a result of Reagan's policies. He kicked off an era of corporate greed with his trickle down economic theory, that never seemed to trickle down. Corporations move jobs out of this country so they could find labor as cheap as possible. Benefits eroded for American families. The Republican Party created more poor people, so when I hear them disparage the poor for being lazy takers who are bankrupting the nation my natural reaction is an eye roll. It's almost like they have a little nostalgic for the good old days when Bigot Barry was on top of the the GOP ticket. Good thing you guys have Trump to lead the charge to Make American Great Again.

 

[potownhero]

Is this a good time to drone on and on with my sad, sad sob story with a spreadsheet of costs (on top of the purchase price) incurred when I purchased a car in FL after leaving Minneapolis?

Your second amendment rights were not eliminated. Not by a long shot.

[See what I did there?]

Your attempt to equate licensing and training fees to a poll tax is the height of false equivalency.

But a voting ID card is preventing people from voting...? Hypocrisy much?

 

[ulukinatme]

Forgot Fascist.

 

[NorthDakota]

But a voting ID card is preventing people from voting...? Hypocrisy much?

Thats different.

 

[Irish#1]

I think the middle class started disappearing as a result of Reagan's policies.

It's always the Republicans fault. At least we got that cleared up.


I will say it's gotten a little chippy in here and I don't mind admitting that I'm enjoying it!

 

[ACamp1900]

It's always the Republicans fault. At least we got that cleared up.

It's certainly never the controlling party...


unless of course.....

 

[BobbyMac]

Everyone who was in power is responsible -- the ones who pushed for policies that created these problems, and the ones who were to weak to stand up to them.

Everybody gets a participation certificate huh? Your generation...

I don't even know what this means.

If true, you paid too much for college.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FszQelEQ2KY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Denver, Seattle, San Francisco, Minneapolis, San Diego, Houston. These are all great cities. Do they have their drawbacks? Sure, everyplace does, but overall these are great cities on the upswing.

I'll bet all of them except San Francisco and Denver have had non-Democratic mayors in my lifetime. Minneapolis is fine by me, they practice a very pragmatic form of left wing politics. San Diego has a Republican mayor right now btw. Sand Diego and Orange Counties are Conservative overall so for future reference, don't use SoCal as fodder for arguments, only LA CO. (the 800lb gorilla for sure) is Dem controlled.

Government infrastructure? The new American model for prisons is privately run institutions. These prisons make profit off of incarceration, and they lobby the government for stricter laws so more people can be thrown in prison so they can make more money. Ain't capitalism grand? The safety net programs that the right is constantly aiming to tear down were put in place to take care of people that nobody wanted to hire, few were interested in providing a quality education to. The year prior to LBJ signing the Civil Rights Act, the right put up their segregationist candidate Barry Goldwater who ran on a platform of white supremacy. Here we are 52 years later, and we have Trump. The more things change ...

That is correct. The private sector went into the "industry" because business was booming. Our court systems want everyone under their thumb. They want as many people as possible paying fines, court costs, probation. I'd love to only blame that on the Dems but i can't. It's EVERY body who runs for an office because they have to be "tougher on crime" than the last guy. So one would think the tough on crime stance is a Conservative issue but incarceration rates skyrocketed under Clinton. Don't blame the Conservative / Capitalists for running a better prison than the state did. The States were simply inefficient and had to give away the rights to the prisons.

In regards to Goldwater. Call him what you will but you better embrace the fact that LBJ did as much to segregate Americans by race as any single person and only the institution of slavery was more detrimental to black Americans.

I think the middle class started disappearing as a result of Reagan's policies. He kicked off an era of corporate greed with his trickle down economic theory, that never seemed to trickle down. Corporations move jobs out of this country so they could find labor as cheap as possible. Benefits eroded for American families. The Republican Party created more poor people, so when I hear them disparage the poor for being lazy takers who are bankrupting the nation my natural reaction is an eye roll. It's almost like they have a little nostalgic for the good old days when Bigot Barry was on top of the the GOP ticket. Good thing you guys have Trump to lead the charge to Make American Great Again.

We were losing steel and automotive jobs before Reagan. It became ok for people to buy Japanese cars in the 70's. Foreign steel imports were hurting our mills. When heavy manufacturing started to shift overseas and OTHER companies saw that American consumers would buy products from Japan, Taiwan and China then the flood gates opened. My Dad and all my grandfathers were UAW or USW members and the 70's were the transition into the new economy... part of what brought Reagan to power.

 

[ND NYC]

Did a Delay in Police Response Give Shooter More Time? - ABC News

This is similar to other articles I read. Some disagree.

thx accountant, that article captures essence of what I was asking about.
ps do we know what hapopened to the off duty cop/pulse security guard who was shot early on in all this? did he survive?

 

[connor_in]

Here's Everything I Wanted To Say About Islam Yesterday, But Couldn't - Breitbart

 

[ulukinatme]

Here's Everything I Wanted To Say About Islam Yesterday, But Couldn't - Breitbart

Lot of interesting points in there. You don't often see conservative LGBT's, let alone one speaking out about some truths of Islam. Yes, not all of Islam is radical, but it's by far not the most tolerant of religions.

 

[Ndaccountant]

It's always the Republicans fault. At least we got that cleared up.


I will say it's gotten a little chippy in here and I don't mind admitting that I'm enjoying it!

 

[GoIrish41]

Everybody gets a participation certificate huh? Your generation...

I know memory starts slipping with time, so let me remind you ... we are the same age.

If true, you paid too much for college.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FszQelEQ2KY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I mean, I get the argument that subsidizing poor behavior leads to more poor behavior, I do. I don't fully agree with it but even if I did, what is the alternative? Let mothers with children to fend for themselves in an economy that doesn't give a rats ass about them? Republicans are great at identifying problems with liberal policies, they just don't have any alternatives that don't have unthinkably inhumane repercussions. Same is true for Obamacare ... Their solution: get rid of it because its too expensive -- result: 20 million people lose access to healthcare. If you aren't offering a solution that both retains peoples' access to healthcare AND saves money, don't waste your breath. Returning to the old system is a nonstarter.

I'll bet all of them except San Francisco and Denver have had non-Democratic mayors in my lifetime. Minneapolis is fine by me, they practice a very pragmatic form of left wing politics. San Diego has a Republican mayor right now btw. Sand Diego and Orange Counties are Conservative overall so for future reference, don't use SoCal as fodder for arguments, only LA CO. (the 800lb gorilla for sure) is Dem controlled.

I'm not making any arguments, you are. But not very good ones if you are saying that any city that ever had a non-Democratic mayor at any time in the last 50 years is off limits in an argument that they benefitted from progressive policies -- particularly those those cities that are in a progressive state.

That is correct. The private sector went into the "industry" because business was booming. Our court systems want everyone under their thumb. They want as many people as possible paying fines, court costs, probation. I'd love to only blame that on the Dems but i can't. It's EVERY body who runs for an office because they have to be "tougher on crime" than the last guy. So one would think the tough on crime stance is a Conservative issue but incarceration rates skyrocketed under Clinton. Don't blame the Conservative / Capitalists for running a better prison than the state did. The States were simply inefficient and had to give away the rights to the prisons.

Everybody gets a participation certificate, huh? Your generation ...

Fact of the matter is that private prisons are a terrible idea, and the companies who run them lobby increase incarceration because the more behind bars the more money they make. It is a dispicable practice.

In regards to Goldwater. Call him what you will but you better embrace the fact that LBJ did as much to segregate Americans by race as any single person and only the institution of slavery was more detrimental to black Americans.

Nonsense. There has been no time in American history in which blacks were treated fairly. They have always been at the bottom of the economic ladder. Giving them enough money to survive and feed their families was only detrimental if you were not a black American.

We were losing steel and automotive jobs before Reagan. It became ok for people to buy Japanese cars in the 70's. Foreign steel imports were hurting our mills. When heavy manufacturing started to shift overseas and OTHER companies saw that American consumers would buy products from Japan, Taiwan and China then the flood gates opened. My Dad and all my grandfathers were UAW or USW members and the 70's were the transition into the new economy... part of what brought Reagan to power.

Reagan-era propaganda convinced many Americans that we could no longer help the poor, even demonized those who relied on assistance to survive. His policies corroded the social contract that had prevailed since the New Deal.

He is widely viewed in hindsight as a tax cutter, largely because he slashed the tax rate of the wealthiest Americans from 70 percent to 28 percent. But he also raised taxes three times, once on payroll taxes which hurt the poor and middle class while sheilding the rich. His tax cuts for the rich brought on the era of income inequality that has gained momentum ever since. When Reagan became president the richest 1 percent of Americans controlled 8 percent of the nation's wealth. Today, that number is at 40 percent and climbing.

Your party preaches the gospel of free market capitalism, yet Reagan policies made for an uneven playing field. The fact of the matter is that the Japanese made superior cars in the 70s (still do in most cases). Instead of increasing the quality of cars (policies that a president could push for, like presidents do with gas mileage and safety). Reagan let them operate in what was against the best interest of Americans. They responded by shipping the jobs of their workforce overseas to keep the prices down and continue to make shitty cars that could compete on price with their Japanese competition.

 

[kmoose]

Except that people on the watch list haven't been given a TRIAL. What you're suggesting is as big a violation of the Fifth Amendment as the Second.

"No person shall... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

It's a strange world we're living in when the liberals are the ones demanding a totalitarian state. Liberals used to like free speech and due process of law. As a matter of fact, the ACLU has filed lawsuits against the very idea of a No Fly List all together.

https://www.aclu.org/news/court-rules-no-fly-list-process-unconstitutional-and-must-be-reformed

I really don't care. The law does not require a trial for inclusion on the watch list. So there is no violation of "due process of law". The process of law is that the FBI can put you on it if they think you deserve it.

 

[Irish YJ]

I really don't care. The law does not require a trial for inclusion on the watch list. So there is no violation of "due process of law". The process of law is that the FBI can put you on it if they think you deserve it.

Strictly my opinion... I'm perfectly fine with the FBI having all the lists they want, but denying something (a citizen) of anything, based only on suspicion is what's in question. On the other hand, if they have enough info that individuals are involved in something, then just get them out of the F'ing country, or put them in jail.

I'm not sure what constitutes being on a watch list, so it's hard to say one way or another. Do I trust the government to make the best decisions in general.... uhhhh, no. Do I think the government has the right to spy on their citizens without due process, no I don't. They can spy on all the non-citizens as they want, but unless there's direct evidence, they need to leave citizens alone.

 

[DomerInHappyValley]

I really don't care. The law does not require a trial for inclusion on the watch list. So there is no violation of "due process of law". The process of law is that the FBI can put you on it if they think you deserve it.

If your talking about depriving someone of their rights then there has to be due process and relying on just the FBI would eliminate our entire system of checks and balances.

Which is the 4th by the way wizard not the 5th. The 5th is the right against self incrimination.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I really don't care. The law does not require a trial for inclusion on the watch list. So there is no violation of "due process of law". The process of law is that the FBI can put you on it if they think you deserve it.

But inclusion on that list prevents American citizens from being able to fly, which is a violation of due process. And now Democrats are planning to deny firearms to such people as well, which would be an even bigger violation.

 

[ACamp1900]

Strictly my opinion... I'm perfectly fine with the FBI having all the lists they want, but denying something (a citizen) of anything, based only on suspicion is what's in question. On the other hand, if they have enough info that individuals are involved in something, then just get them out of the F'ing country, or put them in jail.

Interesting, we are okay with these people being here, free to do anything they like, just make sure they can't obtain a gun legally and poof,... magic.

 

[Irish YJ]

I mean, I get the argument that subsidizing poor behavior leads to more poor behavior, I do. I don't fully agree with it but even if I did, what is the alternative? Let mothers with children to fend for themselves in an economy that doesn't give a rats ass about them? Republicans are great at identifying problems with liberal policies, they just don't have any alternatives that don't have unthinkably inhumane repercussions. Same is true for Obamacare ... Their solution: get rid of it because its too expensive -- result: 20 million people lose access to healthcare. If you aren't offering a solution that both retains peoples' access to healthcare AND saves money, don't waste your breath. Returning to the old system is a nonstarter.

on the topic of mothers with children... a few questions. forget about race answering the following.

1) At what point do you stop subsidizing poor decision making? Never? That's not an answer yet that's the way we are currently set up.

2) Why is it society's responsibility to subsidize long term poor decision making?

3) Does a mother who knowingly continues to make bad decisions (having children she knows she can not support), deserve to keep those children? She doesn't seem responsible enough to manage her own life, let alone bring children up in a satisfactory way.

4) Aren't mothers that continue having children they can's support, exponentially continuing the cycle?

5) How do you blame society for an individuals choice to procreate irresponsibly? If you say it's the way that they were raised, see 3 and 4.



Personally i believe that children are a gift, and deserve the best that life has to offer. Right now the system we have only perpetuates #4, rewards irresponsible behavior, and obviously creates reliance on the government/society. You blame the GOP for not having a better answer, when the liberal answer is a multiplier to the issue itself.

 

[Irish YJ]

Interesting, we are okay with these people being here, free to do anything they like, just make sure they can't obtain a gun legally and poof,... magic.

I didn't say I was OK with anyone being here.

 

[BobbyMac]

Same is true for Obamacare ...

Why bring up Obamacare? Nobody wants to talk about that hot mess.

Fact of the matter is that private prisons are a terrible idea,

Yes they absolutely are but the court system was pumping out more than state controlled prisons could handle before the the rise of private prisons. You can't blame America's gulag mentality on pay to stay prisons. It's both sides of the isle that are layering crap law over crap law so that if you sell a bag of weed to a friend and get caught, they've got 25 bogus, redundant counts to ring you up on. Now you are in the system and paying until your ridiculously long sentence is complete.

Nonsense. There has been no time in American history in which blacks were treated fairly. They have always been at the bottom of the economic ladder. Giving them enough money to survive and feed their families was only detrimental if you were not a black American.

Where did that come from? That has nothing to do with what I said.

Your party preaches...

My party? I'm a Classical Liberal. A registered Independent. Voted 2x for Bill. I don't have to deep throat either party's position or flawed ideologies.

This is why I stay in the football section.




.

 

[Opus]

I really don't care. The law does not require a trial for inclusion on the watch list. So there is no violation of "due process of law". The process of law is that the FBI can put you on it if they think you deserve it.

As of right now the process doesn't include taking away a constitutional right. It is really scary how many people throughout the country are in favor of violating a constitutional right. I would bet that the majority of those people are in favor of it because it doesn't affect them.

I'm sure that the FBI would never abuse their authority, intentionally or by accident, by placing an individual on the list who didn't deserve to be on it.

 

[kmoose]

As of right now the process doesn't include taking away a constitutional right. It is really scary how many people throughout the country are in favor of violating a constitutional right. I would bet that the majority of those people are in favor of it because it doesn't affect them.

I'm sure that the FBI would never abuse their authority, intentionally or by accident, by placing an individual on the list who didn't deserve to be on it.

That's why there has to be a redress to the process, so that accidental listings can be rectified in a reasonable amount of time.

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

It's always the Republicans fault. At least we got that cleared up.


I will say it's gotten a little chippy in here and I don't mind admitting that I'm enjoying it!

The wealth never did trickle down. It stayed at the top.

 

[BobbyMac]

The wealth never did trickle down. It stayed at the top.

Is that right or wrong?