Notre Dame's Ultimate Recruiting Tool

[Whiskeyjack]

I would suggest just using information for all athletes, don't break it down by race.

As I mentioned in my previous comment on this thread, I hope someday we eliminate all statistics done by race.

Stanford is a great example of why the second ranking for black football players is necessary. Stanford's 30y Return for Graduates, at $1,856,800, is $232,900 (~14%) higher than ND's. Factoring in Football GSR (Overall) still doesn't close the gap, despite ND's being 10% higher. Football GSR (Black) is where ND takes the top spot, because our GSR (100%) is 25% higher than Stanford's (75%).

If we chose to ignore race in this analysis, recruits like Alex Carter, Noor Davis, and Ifeadi Odenigbo could easily conclude that Stanford offers them the best educational value, which isn't true.

It'd be great if there was no need to use race-specific statistics, but as long as ND is one of a few schools on the right side of this issue, it needs to be pounding this drum. Ignoring the issue because it makes some people uncomfortable only hurts us.

Wow, thats a pretty heavy accusation. You really think "many (most?) schools" discriminate? Does anyone else feel this way?

Discriminate? No. Exploit? Absolutely. The vast majority of AQ schools have a significant disparity between their white and black Football GSRs. Stanford's, for instance, is 19%. When I have some time, I'll put together another sheet showing the GSR racial disparity for every school.

This gets at one of the questions in my earlier post. Should I scrap the Football GSR (Overall) in favor of Football GSR (White)? It would make the exploitation of black athletes at most AQ schools much more apparent, but it would also obscure the primary purpose of the spreadsheet-- to allow for unbiased concrete comparisons between the value of an education at various BCS schools.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The most recent updates should make the racial exploitation by most BCS schools apparent, Bob.

Over half of them have a 20% or larger disparity between their white and black football GSRs. Iowa State is the worst, with a Racial GSR Disparity of 51%, but there are plenty of top programs with similarly shameful numbers: FSU (49%) aTm (47%), UCLA (37%), Arkansas (36%), Wisconsin (36%), Oregon (33%), USC (32%), etc.

Scholarships are the primary/ only legal way schools compensate their players. Schools with a large Racial GSR Disparity are essentially paying many of their players in a foreign currency they can't ever hope to cash. That's exploitation.

 

[BeauBenken]

Study shows graduation rates between blacks, whites have widened - ESPN

Just pointing it out that it is going in the opposite direction than one would hope.

A (least) favorite chart of mine.

Graduation gap bowl 2010 - Boston.com

 

[irish1958]

Wow, thats a pretty heavy accusation. You really think "many (most?) schools" discriminate? Does anyone else feel this way?

No I don't think they discriminate; they use them for their purpose and then discard them.
If they aren't "good enough" they take away their scholarship and effectively kick them out of the program (and as a result, school) If they get injured and can't continue, kick them out!
Their graduation rate is increased by "token white" guys who never play.
It stinks. This is especially true in football and basketball.
And as soon as someone points these facts out, he is racist and is accused of discriminating.
I am a physician. Am I a racist because I tell a black patient that he is more likely to have prostate cancer and he better be checked early and often; or a young teenager that black children have sex early and they better get their HPV vaccine when they are 9 or 10?
I resent the accusation that I said the schools discriminate. I did not say this. I said WJ was spot on with his analysis. Many (most) "universities" exploit their black athletes. It is a fact.

 

[IrishLax]

No I don't think they discriminate; they use them for their purpose and then discard them. If they aren't "good enough" they take away their scholarship and effectively kick them out of the program (and as a result, school) If they get injured and can't continue, kick them out! Their graduation rate is increased by "token white" guys who never play. It stinks. This is especially true in football and basketball.

Bingo.

 

[IrishLax]

Really, it all comes down to what you value. If you want to go to a school that will make sure every single player is taken care of for 4 years and has a great support structure to graduate with a meaningful degree... go to Notre Dame. There really isn't any other school like it with how they push their athletes to succeed in life.

That's not what every kid or parent wants though. Some want to be football majors and don't care about academics. Some want to stay close to home. Some want a big state school. Some want a duffle bag full of cash. Everyone is different and everyone needs to make the choice that is best for them.

 

[BobD]

No I don't think they discriminate; they use them for their purpose and then discard them.
If they aren't "good enough" they take away their scholarship and effectively kick them out of the program (and as a result, school) If they get injured and can't continue, kick them out!
Their graduation rate is increased by "token white" guys who never play.
It stinks. This is especially true in football and basketball.
And as soon as someone points these facts out, he is racist and is accused of discriminating.
I am a physician. Am I a racist because I tell a black patient that he is more likely to have prostate cancer and he better be checked early and often; or a young teenager that black children have sex early and they better get their HPV vaccine when they are 9 or 10?
I resent the accusation that I said the schools discriminate. I did not say this. I said WJ was spot on with his analysis. Many (most) "universities" exploit their black athletes. It is a fact.

Discriminate: To make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs rather than according to actual merit, to show partiality.

I in no way, meant to insult, accuse or hurt anyone by my comment, I especially want you to know that I in NO WAY tried to accuse you or anyone of being a racist, so I apologize if you were offended.

I added the definition of discrimination to this post so you could hopefully see why I used the term, your statement does imply discrimination.

Bottom line is, I agree, the information WJ has put together is valuable. I just feel it should only be supplied when requested.

Sorry again if I offended you, so you know....I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer and I definitely don't have all the answers, but I would love to find them.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Bottom line is, I agree, the information WJ has put together is valuable. I just feel it should only be supplied when requested.

Did you see the recent updates, Bob? Since the racial controversy seems unavoidable (the numbers don't lie there), I erred on the side of presenting as much data as possible so people can draw their own conclusions.

 

[koonja]

Whiskey might appreciate this.

LSU, Bama who?

NCAA: Why Notre Dame-Wake Forest Is the Real Game of the Century - WSJ.com

 

[BobD]

Did you see the recent updates, Bob? Since the racial controversy seems unavoidable (the numbers don't lie there), I erred on the side of presenting as much data as possible so people can draw their own conclusions.

Hi WJ,

I did see it and its awesome! Sorry I meant to reply last night and I fell asleep at my desk....long work days. I was also going to ask you, are the GPA's of student athletes available somewhere or are they confidential?

 

[irishtrain]

Really, it all comes down to what you value. If you want to go to a school that will make sure every single player is taken care of for 4 years and has a great support structure to graduate with a meaningful degree... go to Notre Dame. There really isn't any other school like it with how they push their athletes to succeed in life.

That's not what every kid or parent wants though. Some want to be football majors and don't care about academics. Some want to stay close to home. Some want a big state school. Some want a duffle bag full of cash. Everyone is different and everyone needs to make the choice that is best for them.

Short to the point and well said. I cant do it that way on this subject as my emotions get in the way. Thanks for expressing this the correct way. My comment has always been if you love Notre Dame then accept what they are- college football players-not pros or 85 guys on campus to entertain on Saturday and win football games. But you cant complain or expect them to play with Ala/LSU/OU/Texas/southern cal/Oregon/Ohio State in the near future etc because they are not in that talent pool across the board. Its not a fair fight until the adm opens up the gates and lets in the players they need. We all know nothing is going to change that. When you watch Ala/LSU this weekend (and I wont ) you will be watching what Notre Dame once was in 1966 when thay played Mich State. If you could play and got the offer from Notre Dame you went to Notre Dame. I dont want to sound like a downer to kids considering the finest combo school in the country because frankly they just dont care about education. They're only concern for the most part is getting some type of degree for their efforts ( whether its legit or not ) as they point to the NFL. I've already said to much -this subject is just maddening to me. How do you get thru to a young man that being a Notre Dame man is special-they're just concerned with the 'now 'if the are football first. By the way I told you guys 2 years ago that Stanford was doing something different and the Wall Street Journal article proves just that. The playing field today is simple-its pro football minor league versus college football. Choose who you are.

 

[BeauBenken]

So what about the GSR of minorities other than blacks?






Note: I'm sorta busting your balls, but I'm also pretty curious.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Hi WJ,

I did see it and its awesome! Sorry I meant to reply last night and I fell asleep at my desk....long work days. I was also going to ask you, are the GPA's of student athletes available somewhere or are they confidential?

I haven't been able to find anything recent, but here's an article from January 2008 stating that the team's average GPA was over 3.0 for six consecutive semesters.

I know that anything under a 2.0 isn't considered passing at ND, so my intuition is that our players generally get pretty good grades.

So what about the GSR of minorities other than blacks?

Note: I'm sorta busting your balls, but I'm also pretty curious.

You can look up any aspect of the GSR yourself here. Search for "University of Notre Dame", "Football", and "2010-2011". Click on the FGR Report, and scroll down to the second page for Football.

It shows 100% for blacks, 93% for whites, and 97% overall under the GSR column. I'm confused as to why there's no figure for "Native Hawaiian/ Pacific Islander". We have at least three such players-- Te'o, Schwenke, and Utupo. Perhaps they chose to self-report as "white"?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Football ROI must be catching on. Biscuit at HLS just wrote a post on it!

Edit: He credited me.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Whiskey, we all know that you plagiarized that off The Biscuit.

Or ARE you The Biscuit?.... some sort of intelligence mirror game is going on here... a.... conspiracy???

 

[IrishLax]

Uh oh, don't bump this post!!! Phork will come make the same tired comments about how "no one cares" about academics and just wants to go to a football factory... despite the fact that ND has a top 10 recruiting class right now trending towards top 5 with no alternate explanation except that all of the kids really care about what ND offers as a school in addition to football.

Can't wait until we land Elijah and Yuri in 4 days simply because of how much better ND's academics were than the other schools Elijah was considering and the premium Elijah's father put on a great education.

 

[irishog77]

I heard Biscuit's alter ego on IE is............














phork

 

[phgreek]

Football ROI must be catching on. Biscuit at HLS just wrote a post on it!

Edit: He credited me.

I always appreciate meaningful work...In this case the conclusins to be drawn are in our favor...so lauding your effort may seem like we are self-serving fans. But anyone with two brain cells to rub together understands the implications beyond ND being the best...its the disparities on the list, and who isn't on the list that is telling.

...if one kid sees this, and makes a more informed decision, that'll be at least one young man indebted to you.

As an ND fan, I would like to take this opportunity to jam my thumb in the eye of basically all the Conferences, the BCS, and the NCAA...AWESOME!

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

‏@NDHardin
For 4th straight year, @NotreDame football leads nation in graduation rate, according to numbers released in NCAA Graduation Success Rate

@NDHardin
@NotreDame scored 97 on the latest GSR to tie for 1st in nation. Only 3 schools ranked this week in BCS scored at least 80 in GSR.

 

[BeauBenken]

I may be giving a persuasive speech on why ND is the best place to go as a football player for speech class. Need 3 outside sources...Whiskey, you and your ROI chart will probably be one.

 

[irishfanjho15]

‏@NDHardin
For 4th straight year, @NotreDame football leads nation in graduation rate, according to numbers released in NCAA Graduation Success Rate

@NDHardin
@NotreDame scored 97 on the latest GSR to tie for 1st in nation. Only 3 schools ranked this week in BCS scored at least 80 in GSR.

Oh, you don't say??

 

[clashmore_mike]

@BFeldmanCBS: Saturday’s NotreDame-OU game features programs w/ both highest & lowest grad success rate by Top25 teams: ND-97%; OU-47%

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I may be giving a persuasive speech on why ND is the best place to go as a football player for speech class. Need 3 outside sources...Whiskey, you and your ROI chart will probably be one.

Let me know if you need clarification on my sources or methodology.

@BFeldmanCBS: Saturday’s NotreDame-OU game features programs w/ both highest & lowest grad success rate by Top25 teams: ND-97%; OU-47%

 

[NDdomer2]

Connecticut Huskies basketball program has graduation rate of 11 percent - ESPN

ouch.

 

[phgreek]

Connecticut Huskies basketball program has graduation rate of 11 percent - ESPN

ouch.

This is an outrage...11. Good hell they are closer to winning power ball than they are the national average...is that the plan, come to Uconn, play hoops, but make sure you play the lottery just in case...WTF is wrong with people? HOW can they not shut the program down? Total BS...

 

[irishog77]

This is an outrage...11. Good hell they are closer to winning power ball than they are the national average...is that the plan, come to Uconn, play hoops, but make sure you play the lottery just in case...WTF is wrong with people? HOW can they not shut the program down? Total BS...

At least they got a tournament ban for it.

 

[phgreek]

At least they got a tournament ban for it.

...understood. But is that really enough of a shock to the sysem to force the fundamental changes needed? Shutting it down is probably harsh...but if you have shown, as a program, and a university that you can't juggle academics and basketball, shouldn't you limit the # of kids that get exposed to that...ie hack scholarships in half or something?

 

[irishog77]

...understood. But is that really enough of a shock to the sysem to force the fundamental changes needed? Shutting it down is probably harsh...but if you have shown, as a program, and a university that you can't juggle academics and basketball, shouldn't you limit the # of kids that get exposed to that...ie hack scholarships in half or something?

Sure. I'm not defending UCONN nor the ncaa. That's why I said "at least." :smilewink

UCONN may have lost a couple of scholarships, in addition to the postseason ban, as well? Or was that just for recruiting violations?

I still laugh at the ncaa supposedly cracking down on schools for **** poor academic performance by instituting the progress report and standard. Are we more likely to believe that these schools, rife with academic cheating and fraud for its student athletes, all of a sudden started performing better (as evidenced by the fact that UCONN BB is the only semi-known football or basketball team to suffer a penalty)...or these schools, rife with academic cheating and fraud for its student athletes, just didn't continue along this path? They found new ways to cheat. I mean, all of a sudden guys that were non and partial qualifiers that can barely string together a sentence in the English language are all of a sudden good students? C'mon ncaa! As has been the case often in our country's history with academia, the schools probably eased or lessened the standard for the student to meet. That, however, doesn't absolve the ncaa from actually requiring its member institutions from, you know, actually educating its students.

End rant.

 

[phgreek]

Sure. I'm not defending UCONN nor the ncaa. That's why I said "at least." :smilewink

UCONN may have lost a couple of scholarships, in addition to the postseason ban, as well? Or was that just for recruiting violations?

I still laugh at the ncaa supposedly cracking down on schools for **** poor academic performance by instituting the progress report and standard. Are we more likely to believe that these schools, rife with academic cheating and fraud for its student athletes, all of a sudden started performing better (as evidenced by the fact that UCONN BB is the only semi-known football or basketball team to suffer a penalty)...or these schools, rife with academic cheating and fraud for its student athletes, just didn't continue along this path? They found new ways to cheat. I mean, all of a sudden guys that were non and partial qualifiers that can barely string together a sentence in the English language are all of a sudden good students? C'mon ncaa! As has been the case often in our country's history with academia, the schools probably eased or lessened the standard for the student to meet. That, however, doesn't absolve the ncaa from actually requiring its member institutions from, you know, actually educating its students.

End rant.

I know you weren't defending them...I was just looking at the "punishment" and thinking it fails to ellicit thany real change...

I'm with ya...Good Rant...!!!

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Whenever I see this headline "Ultimate Recruiting Tool", I think of that guy Grubel that everyone hates...