New Pope Elected

Whiskeyjack

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I didn't get that implied statement out of it. Even so it's a dangerous analogy to make in my opinion. Punching a guy on the street who insults your mother is a far cry from taking some machine guns to an office that publishes things you don't like and killing civilians. The attempt to normalize the extremist behavior is something I have a problem with.

I don't think that's a fair characterization of his comments. First, he condemned the attack:

Francis insisted that it was an "aberration" to kill in the name of God and said religion can never be used to justify violence.

But then he goes on to say that aggressively provoking a man over something that is sacred to him (his mother, faith, etc.) is bound to elicit a negative reaction. Making that observation does not equate to apologizing for extremist behavior. And he's right. Even in this country, there are lots of exceptions to the freedom of speech. If you walked up to an African-American and started peppering him with racial epithets, he could likely punch you in the face without having to worry about liability for battery. If he took out a gun and killed you, he'd likely face prosecution for homocide, but the provocation would still be relevant (it might drop the charge from 2d Murder to Voluntary Manslaughter). That's perfectly reasonable.

When the Reformation fractured united Christendom into a bunch of competing Christian sects, there was terrible bloodshed between Catholics and Protestants. The solution was religious pluralism, which allowed countrymen belonging to different Christian sects to get along in society without resorting to killing each other doctrinal differences. But pluralism is only possible if it's based on mutual civility. I think that's all Francis is calling for here. Civility towards people of faith. Would it be reasonable to expect him, as the leader of the world's largest religious sect, to praise the juvenile iconoclasm of Charlie Hebdo as heroic?

This article from the The Week's Brendan Michael Dougherty is on point:

Terrorists slaughtered a roomful of French cartoonists in Paris yesterday.

That sentence is so absurd and appalling it is difficult to accept as a statement of fact. The murderers of the staff of Charlie Hebdo, a satirical magazine that had frequently lampooned the Prophet Muhammad and Islam, reportedly shouted, "Allah is revenged." So as France mourns its dead, Western Europe is once again forced to consider how to preserve the norms of a secular society in which religion can be mocked. This is all the more difficult when the most vital religious force in that society is a poor, devout, and mostly immigrant minority.

We often talk about secularism as if it is an obvious principle that can be easily applied to all nations, governments, and religions. It is anything but. Attempts by Westerners to impose the ideals of secularism on Muslim immigrants have only exposed the fact that restrictions on religion cannot be applied with a broad brush.

France, in particular, has bent over backward to prove that its version of secularism is blind. The country banned the wearing of "large crosses" in schools and public institutions to give a veneer of impartiality to its real goal of banning Islamic veils in the same places. Confronted with an Islamic tradition that gave offense, France invented a Christian analogue to ban along with it, a phony gesture at neutrality that has been imitated elsewhere.

But secularism is a political, legal, and cultural project that goes back centuries, with roots in the "two swords" doctrine of medieval Christianity. The target of modern secularism was (and still is, really) the Christian Church, which it sees as the instigator and vehicle of majoritarian prejudice. Secularism aims to prevent Europe's wars of religion from ever happening again, and to contain the power of Europe's churches when it comes to politics and culture.

It encourages a special disgust with religious violence in history. Ditto religious motivations in democratic politics.

Modern secularism creates a taboo against distinguishing between religions. To judge one in any way superior to another is a step away from enlightenment and civilization, and a step toward the Thirty Years War. You are allowed to mock and hate Islam, but must make a show of doing it "equally" to other religions. You are also allowed to respect religion, but the same principle applies. This brigade of pieties exists to prevent acts of hatred and to stifle prejudice, but it inadvertently guards against any intelligent conversation about religion.

After yesterday's attack, many liberals rushed to affirm the right to offend and to blaspheme. They allied themselves with the legacy of Christopher Hitchens, who could write acidly about Islam but also played with the rather illiberal idea of categorizing religious education as child abuse. These voices are leaning hard on the secularist idea that religious people cannot be allowed a veto on free speech, even in an age in which we discuss offering trigger warnings to those far more privileged than the men in French banlieues.

Other progressives feel that mocking Muslims is a form of racism. Or, more circumspectly, that the cartoonists of Charlie Hedbo were somehow unsporting. This says a lot about secularism: The point is to make sure France isn't ruled by contraception-deploring Ursuline nuns, not to bring a minority to heel. Secularism is not about religion per se, but a tool for rearranging the distribution of power.

The taboos of secularism interlock in other odd ways. Modern Western secularists feel no anxiety whatsoever when they encounter harsh criticism and satire of Christianity. But if you offer a particularly barbed remark about Islam among the enlightened, someone will ask you to politely agree that Christianity is just as bad. And ironically, this instinct to protect the powerless is a leftover instinct of Christian civilization, which put sayings like "the last shall be first, and the first shall be last" at the heart of its worship and moral imagination.

We used to say of comedians, "He can make that joke because he's Jewish." In this respect, the Western world's comfort with attacking Christianity is an inadvertent admission that Christianity is "our" religion. And so it elicits from us none of the respect, deference, or fear we give to strangers. Viewed this way, secularism looks less like universal principle than a moral and theological critique derived from Christian sources and pitched back at Christian authorities.

The great irony of Islam's continued clashes with the Western way of life — whether its widespread riots over a YouTube video or the murderous actions of a crazed minority— is that it has revealed, to the surprise of everyone but Pope Emeritus Benedict, that modern secularism is a kind of epiphenomenon of Christendom.

To borrow from G.K. Chesterton, secularism is the second fermentation, where the wine of Christianity becomes the vinegar of laïcité. Force either of them into the mouth of a Muslim guest, and he will spit it out.
 

wizards8507

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But then he goes on to say that aggressively provoking a man over something that is sacred to him (his mother, faith, etc.) is bound to elicit a negative reaction.
Then why haven't Catholics or Jews or Evangelical Christians or the parents of the mentally challenged bombed the home of Seth MacFarlane or others behind Family Guy? Maybe because there's nothing inherently violent or evil in Catholicism or Judaism or Christianity or being the parent of the mentally challenged. That's the difference. When the "thing that is sacred" to the person is Jihad and the extermination of infidels, he loses any amount of justification based on provocation by the satirist.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Then why haven't Catholics or Jews or Evangelical Christians or the parents of the mentally challenged bombed the home of Seth MacFarlane or others behind Family Guy? Maybe because there's nothing inherently violent or evil in Catholicism or Judaism or Christianity or being the parent of the mentally challenged. That's the difference. When the "thing that is sacred" to the person is Jihad and the extermination of infidels, he loses any amount of justification based on provocation by the satirist.

I won't co-sign on Islam being "inherently violent or evil", but I also won't argue that it's not inherently different (and in many ways more problematic) than the other Abrahamic faiths. The West, even in its current secular progressive form, is indelibly Christian. If Muslims wants to live in the West, they have to sign onto the Christian armistice agreement that is religious pluralism. Blasphemy laws are a non-starter.

That said, there's no hypocrisy in condemning the attack, affirming the value pluralism/ free speech, and calling for civility towards people of faith.
 

wizards8507

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I won't co-sign on Islam being "inherently violent or evil".
Whatever you want to call these people then. Radical Islam, Militant Islam, Islamic Extremism, Islamic Fundamentalism, whatever. Call it what you will. The group that did the killing IS "inherently violent and evil."

That said, there's no hypocrisy in condemning the attack, affirming the value pluralism/ free speech, and calling for civility towards people of faith.
On this, we agree. My objection is to the inclusion of these people among "people of faith."

(Again, throw whatever qualifier you'd like in there to distinguish between peaceful Islam and the militant bunch.)
 
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Whiskeyjack

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Whatever you want to call these people then. Radical Islam, Militant Islam, Islamic Extremism, Islamic Fundamentalism, whatever. Call it what you will. The group that did the killing IS "inherently violent and evil."

Islamism != Islam. Wooly touched on this a bit in the "Paris Shootings" thread, but there are approximately 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, the vast majority of whom are entirely peaceful. Of those, somewhere between 75-90% are Sunnis (we'll lowball it and assume there are 1.2 billion Sunnis worldwide). Islamists virtually all belong to a sect called Wahhabism, which is a fundamentalist strain of Sunni Islam focused in Saudia Arabia, Qatar and the UAE. Adherents are estimated to be 4.56 million, which is only 0.38% of Sunnis and 0.285% of the global population of Muslims.

Criticize, condemn and lampoon the Wahhabis as much as you'd like. But stating that Islam is inherently violent and evil isn't fair.
 

greyhammer90

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I don't think that's a fair characterization of his comments. First, he condemned the attack:



But then he goes on to say that aggressively provoking a man over something that is sacred to him (his mother, faith, etc.) is bound to elicit a negative reaction. Making that observation does not equate to apologizing for extremist behavior. And he's right. Even in this country, there are lots of exceptions to the freedom of speech. If you walked up to an African-American and started peppering him with racial epithets, he could likely punch you in the face without having to worry about liability for battery. If he took out a gun and killed you, he'd likely face prosecution for homocide, but the provocation would still be relevant (it might drop the charge from 2d Murder to Voluntary Manslaughter). That's perfectly reasonable.

When the Reformation fractured united Christendom into a bunch of competing Christian sects, there was terrible bloodshed between Catholics and Protestants. The solution was religious pluralism, which allowed countrymen belonging to different Christian sects to get along in society without resorting to killing each other doctrinal differences. But pluralism is only possible if it's based on mutual civility. I think that's all Francis is calling for here. Civility towards people of faith. Would it be reasonable to expect him, as the leader of the world's largest religious sect, to praise the juvenile iconoclasm of Charlie Hebdo as heroic?

This article from the The Week's Brendan Michael Dougherty is on point:

Sorry man, I still don't like the analogy. There's a HUUUUUGE difference morally, legally, socially, and psychologically between a black man punching me for yelling the N-word in his face, and a black man shooting me for printing and distributing racists phamplets. The attempt to conflate the two paints the second in too far a "normal, reasonable reaction" sort of light for me to agree and again I'll say that I think attempting to combine the two is borderline manipulative.
 

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I won't co-sign on Islam being "inherently violent or evil", but I also won't argue that it's not inherently different (and in many ways more problematic) than the other Abrahamic faiths. The West, even in its current secular progressive form, is indelibly Christian. If Muslims wants to live in the West, they have to sign onto the Christian armistice agreement that is religious pluralism. Blasphemy laws are a non-starter.

That said, there's no hypocrisy in condemning the attack, affirming the value pluralism/ free speech, and calling for civility towards people of faith.

I agree that "there's no hypocrisy in condemning the attack, affirming the value pluralism/ free speech, and calling for civility towards people of faith."

People seem too often to confuse what the law should allow/tolerate with what is morally acceptable.

Jameis Winston yelled some obscenities on his campus that were completely inappropriate and offensive. I would have no problem with his coach or the school punishing him, or girls at FSU refusing to talk to him. That doesn't necessarily mean I think he should get arrested, and it certainly doesn't mean he should be killed!

What do you mean when you say Islam is not inherently violent? I would certainly agree that it does not encourage indiscriminate violence, but would you disagree with this statement:

- Islam has a consistent history of using violence means to conquer territory in the name of its God, and that this history started with its founder, who himself was a military leader who taught that God had specially authorized him to lead various campaigns in order to spread, or enable him to spread, the unique religious revelation that he had received.

This stands in stark contrast with Christianity and some other religions, whose founders renounced violence and never participated in it. It may not stand in contrast with Judaism, depending on how you define the religion.
 

wizards8507

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People seem too often to confuse what the law should allow/tolerate with what is morally acceptable.
Francis has crossed this line numerous times. I don't believe he's done so on this free speech discussion, but his economic statements were clear that economic inequality should be addressed through the political/legal system via state intervention. He deviated quite a bit from moral rights and obligations and entered that legal/political realm. I expect the same will be true in his upcoming statements on climate change.
 

DaLastFarleyite

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Papal authority isn't all-encompassing. I can't imagine that you'd be willing to burden a Catholic's conscience with guilt for disagreeing with a Pope who says that the sky is orange because the chlorophyll in the cellular structure of clouds refracts sound waves generated by the silicon-based life forms that live on Venus. He can speak to the morality of a thing but he's not free to invent facts or prescribe solutions based on a faulty information.

Example: Legitimate papal authority dictates "a society has the responsibility to help the poor" but it's an overreach for him to continue "...which is best accomplished by State intervention and redistribution of wealth," because the latter clause is factually inaccurate and is an expression of an economic doctrine rather than a theological one.

Another example: Legitimate papal authority dictates "we have the responsibility to care for God's creation" but it's an overreach for him to continue "...which is best accomplished by State intervention and mandatory carbon taxes on business."

While it would be sinful to reject the poor or abuse God's creation, it can't be sinful to follow one's conscience regarding the best method to care for those things. Being a "good Catholic" doesn't mean you have to agree with the Pope on all things. I'm sure he would have loved for Argentina to win the World Cup, but that doesn't make it sinful to have cheered for Germany, because Argentinian football superiority has nothing to do with Church doctrine nor dogma.

Well said. Agree with your premise. At the end of the day we cannot pawn off our responsibilities on government. We need to act directly. Those that advocate the government care for the poor and disadvantaged are merely attempting to transfer their responsibility elsewhere and yet feel that they have "done their part," to which I disagree.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Sorry man, I still don't like the analogy. There's a HUUUUUGE difference morally, legally, socially, and psychologically between a black man punching me for yelling the N-word in his face, and a black man shooting me for printing and distributing racists phamplets. The attempt to conflate the two paints the second in too far a "normal, reasonable reaction" sort of light for me to agree and again I'll say that I think attempting to combine the two is borderline manipulative.

FWIW, I agree that his analogy was inapt and his timing impolitic. I just don't see a problem with (what I perceive to be) his underlying point.

-Islam has a consistent history of using violence means to conquer territory in the name of its God, and that this history started with its founder, who himself was a military leader who taught that God had specially authorized him to lead various campaigns in order to spread, or enable him to spread, the unique religious revelation that he had received.

This stands in stark contrast with Christianity and some other religions, whose founders renounced violence and never participated in it. It may not stand in contrast with Judaism, depending on how you define the religion.

Atheists are constantly laying every injustice of the Middle Ages at the feet of Christianity, regardless of all the confounding political, social and economic factors involved. Arguing that Islam is "inherently violent" strikes me as a similarly specious claim. Mainstream interpretations of Islam, which the overwhelming majority of today's 1.6b Muslims follow, are not violent, which is borne out by the fact that the overwhelming majority of Muslims live quite peacefully.

Francis has crossed this line numerous times. I don't believe he's done so on this free speech discussion, but his economic statements were clear that economic inequality should be addressed through the political/legal system via state intervention. He deviated quite a bit from moral rights and obligations and entered that legal/political realm. I expect the same will be true in his upcoming statements on climate change.

How can economic inequality and climate change be addressed other than through the legal and political realms? Especially in the West, where once robust civil societies have withered under the onslaught of progressivism? I can't help but wonder if those who insist that the Pope keep himself in a little box labeled "Morality and Theology" simply aren't comfortable with the way he challenges the incoherent compartmentalization of their own lives. Catholic Social Thought is very well developed, and its policy implications are pretty damned clear in most areas.
 
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wizards8507

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How can economic inequality and climate change be addressed other than through the legal and political realms? Especially in the West, where once robust civil societies have withered under the onslaught of progressivism?
The issue is that his prescriptions in those areas have been proven false over and over again throughout history. Saying "help the poor through redistributionism" is like saying "treat the sick by poisoning them."

I'm trying to think of an analogy to make my position clear. I'll use Notre Dame football as an example. The "Pope" of Notre Dame football might say "we need to improve our running game." He might even go so far as to say "we need to improve our running game by recruiting the right types of players." However, he'd be flat-out incorrect if he went on to say "we need to improve our running game by recruiting a great punter."

ETA: How could it be addressed other than through the political realm? On the individual level, where all virtue resides. I'm sure there are business owners who pay a living wage because it's the right thing to do, not because anyone is making them. I could throw all my garbage in a river or on the streets but I choose not to, not because I'd be fined, but because it would be a d*ck move.

I can't help but wonder if those who insist that the Pope keep himself in a little box labeled "Morality and Theology" simply aren't comfortable with the way he challenges the incoherent compartmentalization of their own lives.
Some extent of compartmentalization is necessary in a free society. I can life my life consistent with Catholicism but it would be an infringement on the rights of others to inject Catholicism into my politics such that the State prevented others to live their lives consistent with their faiths (or lack thereof).

Example: I believe contraception and pornography are immoral but I wouldn't support a politician who tried to ban them. Virtue is worthless if we're not free to sin.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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A relic containing the blood of St. Gennaro miraculously liquified in Pope Francis' presence:

This is the first time it [has] happened. San Gennaro’s blood had never liquefied during a papal visit to Naples before. None of the visits paid by Pius IX, John Paul II or Benedict XVI provoked the phenomenon. But the miracle was witnessed this afternoon, after Francis’ heartfelt address to faithful and clergy.

The Pope had taken the vial with the blood of St. Gennaro - displayed on the altar - in his hands and kissed it. Cardinal Sepe said over the microphone: “It is the sign that St. Gennaro loves Pope Francis: half of the blood turned to liquid.” The pronouncement was followed by a long applause from faithful. The Pope then replied: “If only half of it liquefied that means we still have work to do; we have to do better. We have only half of the saint’s love.” But the blood continued to liquefy until the whole relic had turned to liquid, with many faithful crying out as they witnessed this.
 
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God can't make it easy and reveal Himself to us because that would destroy free will but naturally he can sprinkle miracles every now and then and that's totally okay?
 

Corry

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Well then. Would this count as one of his two necessary?


Maybe but I wouldn't think so. Per Wikipedia this happens alot. Being that its Wikipedia take it with a grain of salt.

The Blood Miracle[edit]
Saint Januarius is famous for the miracle of the annual liquefaction of his blood, which, according to legend, was saved by a woman called Eusebia just after the saint's death. A chronicle of Naples written in 1382 describes the cult of Saint Januarius in detail, but mentions neither the relic nor the miracle.[12][13] The first certain date is 1389, when it was found to have melted.[14][15] Then, over the following two and a half centuries official reports began to appear declaring that the blood spontaneously melted, at first once a year, then twice and finally three times a year. While the report of the very first incidence of liquefaction did not make any explicit reference to the skull of the saint, soon afterwards assertions began to appear that this relic was activating the melting process, as if the blood, recognising a part of the body to which it belonged itself, “were impatient while waiting for its resurrection” [16] This explanation was definitively abandoned only in the eighteenth century.[17]

Thousands of people assemble to witness this event in Naples Cathedral three times a year: on September 19 (Saint Januarius day, to commemorate his martyrdom), on December 16 (to celebrate his patronage of both Naples and of the archdiocese), and on the Saturday before the first Sunday of May (to commemorate the reunification of his relics).[18]

Although the city of Naples became known as urbs sanguinum, the miracle is not a unique phenomenon. Other examples include Saint Patricia, blood said to belong to Saint John the Baptist in the monastery of San Gregorio Armeno, and that of Saint Pantaleon which liquifies in nearby Ravello. The liquefication of coagulated blood is therefore peculiar to the region of Campania and virtually unheard of elsewhere. The veneration of many of the blood cults have died out since the sixteenth century, but it may have been the Christian development of an earlier, local pagan ritual to protect the population from unexpected lava bursts flowing from Vesuvius. Disbelievers credit its invention to a medieval Neapolitan alchemist.[19]
 

Old Man Mike

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As to whether this was a free-will canceling miracle: the mere fact that 99%+ of the planetary population said ho-hum [at best] and went back to their TV sets indicates a very low-level threat to free-will indeed. The two guys closest to the action probably didn't need a miracle to give them faith. AND scientistic debunkers like the atheists at CSICOP will be dusting off their counter-explanations for the St. Januarius phenomenon that they've already written decades before.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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God can't make it easy and reveal Himself to us because that would destroy free will but naturally he can sprinkle miracles every now and then and that's totally okay?

Despite this miracle, do you still disbelieve?

Would you disbelieve if God showed his face to you?
 

greyhammer90

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Experiments have been done that recreate this effect, though I'm sure I'll be considered a science-worshipping liberal nihlist by some for being skeptical that I just witnessed the Almighty break the laws of nature.

Also there's the fact that since the Church won't allow any study on this blood, there's a fair bit of controversy on whether it's actually blood at all.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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Experiments have been done that recreate this effect, though I'm sure I'll be considered a science-worshipping liberal nihlist by some for being skeptical that I just witnessed the Almighty break the laws of nature.

Also there's the fact that since the Church won't allow any study on this blood, there's a fair bit of controversy on whether it's actually blood at all.

I'm skeptical too. I'm also skeptical of scientists. Skepticism should never be lost, nor should recognition of where one chooses to place their faith.
 

Irish#1

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Experiments have been done that recreate this effect, though I'm sure I'll be considered a science-worshipping liberal nihlist by some for being skeptical that I just witnessed the Almighty break the laws of nature.

Also there's the fact that since the Church won't allow any study on this blood, there's a fair bit of controversy on whether it's actually blood at all.

What was used to recreate it? How could they recreate it if everything wasn't identical? Just playing devil's advocate.
 

Whiskeyjack

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God can't make it easy and reveal Himself to us because that would destroy free will but naturally he can sprinkle miracles every now and then and that's totally okay?

Experiments have been done that recreate this effect, though I'm sure I'll be considered a science-worshipping liberal nihlist by some for being skeptical that I just witnessed the Almighty break the laws of nature.

Also there's the fact that since the Church won't allow any study on this blood, there's a fair bit of controversy on whether it's actually blood at all.

First, I didn't share this article in the spirit of "Checkmate, atheists!" Pope Francis seems to be popular here on IE (as well as among most other people), so I thought there might be some interest in an alleged miracle involving him.

Second, though I can't find the exact quote now, CS Lewis argues in Miracles that the proper reaction, statistically speaking, to hearing about almost any random miracle is skepticism. Though he spends the rest of the book demolishing naturalistic philosophies that preclude the possibility of miracles.

This article gives a brief outline of why Catholic venerate relics. Minor miracles associated with relics have always been very common throughout Christendom, even in this modern age. My church's reliquarium-- which includes 1st class relics from all 12 Apostles, St. Paul, St. Aquinas, etc.-- is an incredible place. The Basilica of the Sacred Heart supposedly houses one of the most impressive collection of relics in the Western Hemisphere. I regret having never availed myself of it while I was a student.
 

greyhammer90

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First, I didn't share this article in the spirit of "Checkmate, atheists!" Pope Francis seems to be popular here on IE (as well as among most other people), so I thought there might be some interest in an alleged miracle involving him.

Second, though I can't find the exact quote now, CS Lewis argues in Miracles that the proper reaction, statistically speaking, to hearing about almost any random miracle is skepticism. Though he spends the rest of the book demolishing naturalistic philosophies that preclude the possibility of miracles.

This article gives a brief outline of why Catholic venerate relics. Minor miracles associated with relics have always been very common throughout Christendom, even in this modern age. My church's reliquarium-- which includes 1st class relics from all 12 Apostles, St. Paul, St. Aquinas, etc.-- is an incredible place. The Basilica of the Sacred Heart supposedly houses one of the most impressive collection of relics in the Western Hemisphere. I regret having never availed myself of it while I was a student.

I wasn't attempting to disparage the article because I am an agnostic; and I wouldn't say that if a true miracle were to occur I would feel threatened (inasmuch one can not feel threatened by an unexpected breaking of natural law by an obviously powerful being that I know nothing about). I was merely skeptical and trying to express that while attempting to cut-off any neg reps or private messages telling me I suck.
 

AvesEvo

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God can't make it easy and reveal Himself to us because that would destroy free will but naturally he can sprinkle miracles every now and then and that's totally okay?

Why would God revealing himself destroy free will?
 

Old Man Mike

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The St. Januarius blood liquification conundrum has been going on for a very long time. The Church seems generally to regard it as a harmless local tradition --- there is, afterall, no good evidence that St. Gennaro [supposedly actual name before anglicanization] even existed. That's shown by Pope Francis making a good natured joke about the blood only half liquifying.

An Italian scientist has made pretty good attempts to test what's going on here, and may actually know something. The best guess is that this is a mixture of blood and an iron oxide solution, which can solidify if left alone, but can regain some fluidity if gently warmed up. Making such artifacts [though not this exact type] was the "business" of mediaeval "magicians", who may have achieved some wealth through sales of such "wonders". If obscure enough in its origins, such an artifact might achieve a certain "forgetfulness" as to its appearance and acquire legends across time --- including in this case a saint with no good record of having been alive. The local American atheist-scientistic society {CSICOP} of course LOVES this stuff, never missing chances to broadbrush smear everything connected to it, including of course The Catholic Church. Their leading hitman of late has been a guy named Joe Nickel, who is both clever and totally closedminded about anything outside of established textbooks. He did most of the promulgating against the St. Januarius blood stuff in 2000 when it came up prominently, and it appears as one chapter in his debunking book.



... but as for Beer as a Proof for a Loving GOD, I'm in on that [despite not being a beer drinker] as I think that the Proof for a GOD of Love is that there is anything at all. My first decade of my morning rosary is in thanks to the Lord for Existence, beer and all.


p.s. Kalamazoo's Bells Brewery won the national taste test last year with its Two-Hearted Ale.
 
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