ND's Academic Reputation

[Bogtrotter07]

I dont think you can fault any kid for choosing the school that best suits him. Its their decision. Sure, Notre Dame has standards, and great academics. But some kids are football players and not students. They are making the best decision for them and their career.

I appreciate the way Notre Dame conducts things and that is why I am a fan. I also appreciate good football, and that is why I am a fan. I dont agree with some of the strategies off the field that some schools use, and flat out is ruining the game. But on the field, its a great product. You get to watch great brand of football, with players that live and die by each play. That is something you can say is missing from the Notre Dame Football program. Is kids that live and die by football. Thats the catch 22. If you want that 99% graduation rate, and kids that will enhance the student body, thats something you have to live with.

I do think that Notre Dame does an phenomenal job at transitioning kids that dont come from higher academic backgrounds so they do graduate and fit in with the students. But, at the sametime, the cliche recruiting tactic is partially true. There may be some instances where a student athlete is in a class that has 10 valedictorians in it.

At the "football factories" kids like Jameis Winston are going to be taken care of after they leave the school. You win a national title, the alumni are going get you a job if that player isnt in the NFL. That is where ND makes a killing in recruiting. Is getting the player that is probably good enough to contribute to a football factory, but also might not. So he understands the degree factor. That isnt a player that is going to be the difference in a National Title game. ND will get elite kids, but ND will never get elite kids on the reg unless something changes. Winning will help. But Notre Dame will never consistently pull in the classes Alabama has consistently pulled in over the last 7-8 years.

ND recruits high character kids and kids that do understand ND. But to say they are basing their decision on the degree, I dont agree with. They are good football players and they want to go to the league first and foremost.

In addition to this, reps, sir! This is one of the most clear dissections of the difference between ND and the rest in college football today!

I will use it to challenge those that question motivations that don't follow our sentiments. (Kids that go elsewhere to "get taken care of" of go elsewhere "to get a good education.")

I also would be remiss if I don't quote a friend that is an ND graduate that points out how strong the Education program is. Not sure I said this right, but ND graduates a lot of teachers every year. From what I understand, with the difficulty of placement and the typically low starting pay, this skews Whiskey's numbers lower than they would be from a school with a less successful Department of Education. I believe I have stated this clearly; it would sure be nice to see numbers offsetting this.

Back to Waller : I would like to have him. I don't think we need him. I think the preferred walk-on from UD High School would be really an interesting option. But if we get him I will be overjoyed. How will how this plays out affect our '16 quarterback recruiting?

 

[Emcee77]

"Sorry if this comes across as rude, but I'm an actions over words guy. He who is serious about academics simply does not entertain Bama as an option. Not when the like of Northwestern and Notre Dame are options."

Whiskey

He may not have directly said that they were "bad," but what else would you gather from that? Once again I am not denying the value of ND or NW degrees. I am simply saying that you can get a quality education at other schools. Yes earning power is great, but not everybody wants to be a business man or attorney or doctor etc. There are other fields that people go into knowing that the financial gain is not going to be significant. I never said any of these schools were created equal, all I said was, there are other options out there that provide quality educations. What you think or want or desire differs from person to person. I appreciate your stance, but I just happen to disagree with yours. Money is great, but it is not the end all.

Whiskey did not say that. Piombino said that. I don't think Whiskey would say that, and I certainly wouldn't. There are plenty of serious students who would choose Bama over ND for one reason or another. As yankee pointed out, maybe ROI just isn't that important to them.

I guess I'm surprised so many longtime posters don't understand Whiskey's point of view on this. The point is not that you can't get as good an education at other schools. You can get a great education anywhere. You can get a great education by reading Wikipedia articles and checking out the occasional library book. If all you care about is getting a good education in the abstract, why go to college at all? Steve Jobs dropped out of Reed College because he wanted to educate himself, not have to worry about fulfilling the fine arts requirement so he can graduate on time. I have no problem with that outlook; indeed, I'd be a huge hypocrite if I did. Personally I never made any decision about my education with regard to ROI.

But IF you are a prospective bigtime college football player looking at college primarily as a means of ensuring that you will be able to support yourself financially as an adult, which is a viewpoint that is extremely widespread, likely the most common way to look at college, Notre Dame is the safest bet. It is statistically the school where you are most likely to graduate and most likely to install yourself in a remunerative career, or at least among them.

I certainly also have no problem with choosing the school that you think is best for a particular career path that you've picked out for yourself -- but too often players don't bear in mind that many high school kids like them either don't really know what they want to do when they are older, even if they think they do, or are being unrealistic about it. Honestly, this is a big part of why I chose ND. I believed I wanted to get a business degree, but I wasn't certain, so it was very important for me to pick a school that was good at all the things I was even potentially interested in. Our GSR and ROI figures are strong evidence that ND is a good choice IF you take this view of how to look for the right school; you are likely to find a way through school and into a decent-paying job, one way or another, even if you don't know how you will get there.

That doesn't mean that everyone HAS to attend ND or else they don't care about school or money at all and are basically irresponsible children. The chance of earning a marketable degree is just one factor that will have to be weighed against many others. I don't think Whiskey has ever denied that; he just thinks (correctly, imo) that it's going to be the most important factor in the majority of cases.

 

[alaskandomer]

In addition to this, reps, sir! This is one of the most clear dissections of the difference between ND and the rest in college football today!

I will use it to challenge those that question motivations that don't follow our sentiments. (Kids that go elsewhere to "get taken care of" of go elsewhere "to get a good education.")

I also would be remiss if I don't quote a friend that is an ND graduate that points out how strong the Education program is. Not sure I said this right, but ND graduates a lot of teachers every year. From what I understand, with the difficulty of placement and the typically low starting pay, this skews Whiskey's numbers lower than they would be from a school with a less successful Department of Education. I believe I have stated this clearly; it would sure be nice to see numbers offsetting this.

Back to Waller : I would like to have him. I don't think we need him. I think the preferred walk-on from UD High School would be really an interesting option. But if we get him I will be overjoyed. How will how this plays out affect our '16 quarterback recruiting?

ND doesn't have an Education major. The only teachers ND graduates come from the ACE program, which is a Masters level program for those with non-education undergraduate degrees.

 

[wizards8507]

Snark aside, I think it's hard to put much faith in the Payscale rankings when they don't appear to consider the academic / major distribution of the students at each institution.

For example, using the sources linked at the bottom of my post, roughly 45% of ND undergrads are in Business or Engineering programs, compared to only 33% at Penn. This will undoubtedly skew the ROI data in ND's favor. Many more Penn students are in liberal arts type majors or even in their nursing program.

If you're going to get into that level of analysis, you also need to consider geography. $60,000 in Chicago is roughly equal to $62,000 in Philadelphia, $71,000 in Boston, $72,000 in DC, $88,000 in Brooklyn, and $110,000 in Manhattan. Schools that are physically closer to the east coast cities are going to get a larger percentage of recruiting and placement in those cities. Their salaries will skew higher and create a false perception of superiority when, in reality, their grads aren't any better off when it comes to real purchasing power.

 

[yankeeND]

Whiskey did not say that. Piombino said that. I don't think Whiskey would say that, and I certainly wouldn't. There are plenty of serious students who would choose Bama over ND for one reason or another. As yankee pointed out, maybe ROI just isn't that important to them.

I guess I'm surprised so many longtime posters don't understand Whiskey's point of view on this. The point is not that you can't get as good an education at other schools. You can get a great education anywhere. You can get a great education by reading Wikipedia articles and checking out the occasional library book. If all you care about is getting a good education in the abstract, why go to college at all? Steve Jobs dropped out of Reed College because he wanted to educate himself, not have to worry about fulfilling the fine arts requirement so he can graduate on time. I have no problem with that outlook; indeed, I'd be a huge hypocrite if I did. Personally I never made any decision about my education with regard to ROI.

But IF you are a prospective bigtime college football player looking at college primarily as a means of ensuring that you will be able to support yourself financially as an adult, which is a viewpoint that is extremely widespread, likely the most common way to look at college, Notre Dame is the safest bet. It is statistically the school where you are most likely to graduate and most likely to install yourself in a remunerative career, or at least among them.

I certainly also have no problem with choosing the school that you think is best for a particular career path that you've picked out for yourself -- but too often players don't bear in mind that many high school kids like them either don't really know what they want to do when they are older, even if they think they do, or are being unrealistic about it. Honestly, this is a big part of why I chose ND. I believed I wanted to get a business degree, but I wasn't certain, so it was very important for me to pick a school that was good at all the things I was even potentially interested in. Our GSR and ROI figures are strong evidence that ND is a good choice IF you take this view of how to look for the right school; you are likely to find a way through school and into a decent-paying job, one way or another, even if you don't know how you will get there.

That doesn't mean that everyone HAS to attend ND or else they don't care about school or money at all and are basically irresponsible children. The chance of earning a marketable degree is just one factor that will have to be weighed against many others. I don't think Whiskey has ever denied that; he just thinks (correctly, imo) that it's going to be the most important factor in the majority of cases.

First of all I know Whiskey didn't say that. It was something I was pointing out to Whiskey. Secondly, I understand what Whiskey is saying and I appreciate the information that he provides. What I don't understand, is why people ran off in the opposite direction of what I was contributing. You can get a quality education at a lot of schools, and that is my point. If a kid wants to go to x school and says education is a priority, then don't say it isn't if he chooses a school other than ND. Like I said previously, it is up to the kid to put in the work, but the university will provide ample opportunity to gain the skills the student seeks to earn. I don't normally get off on a tangent, but I really feel like my words have been manipulated or at least misunderstood for this discussion. So, to reiterate, I never said ND was not a cut above, because I truly do believe that, but rather a quality education can be gained anywhere if the kid puts in the work.

 

[Emcee77]

First of all I know Whiskey didn't say that. It was something I was pointing out to Whiskey. Secondly, I understand what Whiskey is saying and I appreciate the information that he provides. What I don't understand, is why people ran off in the opposite direction of what I was contributing. You can get a quality education at a lot of schools, and that is my point. If a kid wants to go to x school and says education is a priority, then don't say it isn't if he chooses a school other than ND. Like I said previously, it is up to the kid to put in the work, but the university will provide ample opportunity to gain the skills the student seeks to earn. I don't normally get off on a tangent, but I really feel like my words have been manipulated or at least misunderstood for this discussion. So, to reiterate, I never said ND was not a cut above, because I truly do believe that, but rather a quality education can be gained anywhere if the kid puts in the work.

You quoted Piombino and then typed, "Whiskey" two lines below that, so it looked like you were attributing that quote to Whiskey. Sorry if I misunderstood.

I believe it's clear from the post that you quoted that I agree 100% with everything else you say.

I just want to make sure it's clear that believing in the value of the ROI and GSR statistics is not per se snobbishness. These statistics indicate not that "ND is a better school" or "ND provides the best education" but simply that it is the safest investment a player can make in his own future, to the extent he considers college an investment in himself and his earning potential. Some players will be more risk-tolerant, some will be more-risk averse. That's ok; that's the nature of investing.

A few cynical jokes like Piombino's aside, I think most everyone understands that ROI and GSR are not the be-all-end-all. But these statistics are a powerful analytical tool that we promote on this site because we know recruits read their own recruit threads, and we want them to know about the advantage ND has in ROI and GSR so they can factor that information into their decisions, to whatever extent they might be that risk-averse player.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

My hot take: All of these schools are garbage and dealing coke is the only admirable profession.

 

[Huntr]

My hot take: All of these schools are garbage and dealing coke is the only admirable profession.

Reps!1

 

[ab2cmiller]

Didn't know where else to put this, but Jack Arute was talking on his radio show pretty heavily about the importance of getting a degree and how all these kids and parents think their kid is going to make millions in the NFL.

He talked about Coach Cooks tweet as part of his show

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Why ND? Easy answer after reading this! <a href="http://t.co/99KSvu8Q1c">pic.twitter.com/99KSvu8Q1c</a></p>— Kerry Cooks (@CoachKerryCooks) <a href="https://twitter.com/CoachKerryCooks/statuses/477589642578231296">June 13, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Bishop2b5]

Your 4 year projections are probably based off the 4 years those players are in school. Not to many schools pay their players the $ Bama does. I don't see you losing the top spot in that category for some time.

Are you & TTT taking the new Mercedes into account? You do know we give those away like candy, right?

 

[Johannes]

Once in a while I take a gander at some USC forums to see what's going on in Troy. These days they're all pretty salty about the Dixon ordeal and the Sarkisian mess, and they seem to be throwing shade every which way to cope. (Look who's training a recent graduate and learning youth slang.) Here's a doozy that caught my attention on the 247 boards: OT Lets Look at Notre Dames Academic Rankings

It appears Notre Dame has the reputation of being one of the top level academic national universities. Does it live up to the reputation? I did research and found some interesting comparisons. A few areas I will compare to SC, but not all since ND lacks the many academic options available to students here.

Most of these rankings are from U.S. News with a few from other sources which will be noted. All rankings can be subjective and skewed according to the data submitted. U.S. News data is from 2012, unless noted.

Acceptance rate ND-21% ND has early acceptance of 37.7% which lowers acceptance rate overall
Acceptance rate SC-17% SC does not have a waiting list which also helps to lower acceptance rate. SC does have spring admits as many colleges do today.

National Merit Scholars in 2013 Freshmen Class ND-52
National Merit Scholars in 2013 Freshmen Class SC-247 and Five Achievement Scholars

Student Faculty Ratio ND-11/1
Student Faculty Ratio SC-9/1

SC was listed as having smaller classes overall than ND, even though it is a larger university.

ND does not have a medical school, but SC's student faculty ratio in Keck is 2/1.

Retention Rate of Freshmen ND-97%
Retention Rate of Freshmen SC-97%

SC is listed at #3 in the list from fiscal 2013 in the top fundraising colleges far above ND

SC is listed #8 in the list of colleges that produce the most billionaires. I did not see ND listed.

In the research I did using various sources I was unable to find even one department or school where ND was listed at #1. SC has several. ND did have a subject ranking of logic at #3.

Let us look at engineering....

Graduate engineering ND at #46
Graduate engineering SC at #11

There were nine specialties ranked. SC was ranked higher in eight, with a slight plus for ND in civil engineering.
ND was completely unranked in mechanical, industrial and materials engineering.

ND's undergraduate engineering was ranked at #43.

For law schools SC was ranked above ND and in three specialties SC outranked ND. ND had no specialties ranked.

SC is ranked by U.S. News #1:

Physical Therapy
Occupational Therapy
Games/Interactive Ent. Major
Undergraduate #1 Princeton Review
Graduate #1 Princeton Review
Public Relations #1 Ranking by Public Relations national organization
School of Cinematic Arts #1
By every ranking service found including Hollywood Reporter

Here are US News rankings of majors/departments at ND (Please note none of these is even in the top 25).

For Notre Dame:
Sociology-42
Bio Science--84
Chemistry--60
Computer Science--60
Earth Science--88
Economics--56
English--39
Fine Arts--112
Physics--54
Psychology--67

and did better in political theory #9, nuclear physics #11 and Medieval literature #6.

Funny how, for example, the overall ranking of the two schools from the same source was left out. There isn't much question that USC is a fine academic institution, right up there with the Wake Forests and UNCs of the world. They should be really proud of their top ranked video game program.

Paging Whiskey!

 

[stlnd01]

USC's a very good school. Come a long way from the University of Spoiled Children days.

It also has twice as big an undergrad population and massive graduate programs - grad programs drive a lot of the metrics US News uses, especially at the department/major level.
USC's also located in the second biggest city in the country, which brings certain advantages, like big donors and production of billionaire alums (that's a thing now?)
Many of those rankings are driven by one or more of those factors.

So, whatever.

 

[IrishLax]

My best friend went to USC. It's a really good school. And it is shooting up the rankings, because their president really did a great job of fundraising and stressing academics. USC used to be a school for "rich kids that couldn't get into UCLA" and that's no longer the case at all. Unlike ND, they have a huge international pull from Asia and are located in a major city. That's what drives their application numbers.

ND's ACT composite for admitted students is 32-34. Which compares favorably with the majority of Ivies, but is a step below your Big 3 or Stanford.
USC's is 29-33. Their lower quartile is significantly lower because they still chase the big bank accounts of parents with less intelligent kids... and they're a larger, less difficult school to get in despite their admission % being lower due to a higher number of applicants. They are less academically selective than Notre Dame, Northwestern, Duke, Ivies, etc. which is still the truest measure of how "good" a school is... where do the smartest kids want to go?

USC might produce more "billionaires" (lol?) but ND's graduates do better in the workforce per Payscale, despite not being based in a major city. Notre Dame also has a top undergraduate business school when it comes to many metrics and rankings based on placement/performance. But sure, let's dedicate paragraphs to Notre Dame's weakest department.

Basically, the author of that post had an agenda (duh) and intentionally obfuscated facts. Notre Dame is more academically selective and has graduates that make more money. The end.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Who cares about this in any generic sense? We are on the side of the angels as to the relevance of educational support and value for football players, which is what this site is supposedly about. In that, the comment from Lane Kiffin era recruits that they were told that "attendance is optional" as to classes says about all one needs to know.

As to Stanford and Ivies by the way, it is well known to "us profs" that their undergrads only need to get admitted and then the profs there essentially just give A's and high B's away regardless --- this came up as a major "scandal" of grade inflation in the 1990s, while I was still teaching at WMU.

As to Notre Dame's undergraduate reputation, I can tell you that grad programs elsewhere are DELIGHTED to have the graduates, which again tells you all you need to know about undergrad reputation. And I'm reminded of Cowherd's remark about inviting football players on his show: he said at least if you invite someone from Notre Dame or Duke you know you're not going to have problems. [he meant ability-to-communicate both intelligently and with social perspective so as not to make his job awkward.]

Kelly has PLENTY to "sell" at Notre Dame, not the least of which is the general "spiritual" element of the place --- which if one hasn't been there probably doesn't come to mind. Notre Dame is still unique and is so in an extremely positive way.

 

[kmoose]

Youre wrong. I'm in NYC right now. I think at least 50 domers get banking each year, which is insanely high. I can name 15 good friends of mine who are bankers. Also, the BAML CEO is a ND grad as of this year, and this year the NY office has 10 banking summers, the most of any school.

Up until next month, my brother was an Assistant Director, Career Development, in the MBA program. Part of his job was to sell the top companies on recruiting ND MBA grads. I'm not surprised, but happy to hear that he has been that successful.

 

[NDgradstudent]

Much of this simply reflects ND's Catholic character: ND's faculty are often interested in subfields that are largely of interest to Christians/other theists, and (unfortunately) seen as irrelevant to other academics in that field.

This is important in in the case of graduate programs, where a person's precise specialty matters a good deal. For example, USC's philosophy department is ranked 8th, ahead of ND's at 17th, but if you want to study, say, medieval philosophy or the philosophy of religion, you should come to ND. Similarly, ND obviously has a theology department, and its grad program is highly regarded. (U.S. News does not rank philosophy or theology programs). This is also true in political science: if you want to study, say, political theory or Latin American politics, you should come to ND.

As for law schools, if you want to practice in Chicago, Boston, NYC, D.C., etc., ND would make more sense; if you want to practice in L.A., USC would make more sense. ND's law school punches above its weight in terms of elite firm placement and Supreme Court clerkships (USC does not appear to have had any SCOTUS clerks recently).

In both cases, ND and USC are excellent institutions, but generally behind, say, Harvard or Princeton in terms of most undergraduate and graduate programs. But so what? The important point about ND is that it has a particular mission which often attracts would be-Ivy League students (and faculty), and USC does not. Also, who cares that USC is ranked #1 in "Games/Interactive Ent. Major"?

Finally, for what it is worth, ND's alums give at a very high rate, and students choosing between the schools prefer ND.

 

[NDgradstudent]

I would also say that much of where USC has an advantage is based upon geography. The average person on the job market would prefer living in L.A. to living in South Bend. (Harvard benefits from its location vis-a-vis Yale, too.) This is going to sound obnoxious, but ND attracts the non-average faculty member. ND historian Brad Gregory, for example, left Stanford to come to ND because of ND's unique mission. U.S. News rankings of grad programs reflect that. As I said above, in general, it is difficult to compare schools' rankings because the conclusion in this case will depend upon whether you are looking at an "overall" ranking, which in U.S. News' case is based upon a bunch of quantitative measurements, or a particular ranking in some field, which is based upon a survey of faculty in that field. Princeton would 'beat' ND and USC either way; USC would not 'beat' ND either way.

Again, in the overall undergrad rankings, ND is ahead. The business schools and law schools are basically ranked equally overall. USC is ranked higher in more fields where both schools are ranked, but not usually by too much. ND is ranked higher in other fields. Again, if you are an undergrad who is mainly focused on rankings, you are probably going to pick ND. If you are a law/grad student mainly focused on rankings, it really depends upon your field/subfield, which faculty you want to work with, where you want to live, etc. But let's be honest: other than within the particular world of, say, biology grad students and hiring committees, nobody knows about particular field rankings. For all its faults, the U.S. News overall rankings determine the lay prestige of a university. And in that measurement, ND is ahead.

 

[Corry]

Notre Dame checks in at 18

National University Rankings | Top National Universities | US News Best Colleges | page 2

 

[Irish#1]

Notre Dame checks in at 18

National University Rankings | Top National Universities | US News Best Colleges | page 2

Also the #1 Business School.

 

[Huntr]

Interesting tool just released by the DoEd.

College Scorecard

Story:

How much do alumni from a college earn? The feds give answers

Thought this could provide some insight to the RoI data that Whiskey has worked up.

 

[phork]

Interesting tool just released by the DoEd.

College Scorecard

Story:

How much do alumni from a college earn? The feds give answers

Thought this could provide some insight to the RoI data that Whiskey has worked up.

ND at $69K, UM at $57K, MSU at $47K

 

[wizards8507]

ND at $69K, UM at $57K, MSU at $47K

Note for anyone who can't click on the tool, those numbers are median, ten years after graduation.

Seems low.

 

[gkIrish]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">&#55356;&#57152;9th STRAIGHT NATIONAL TITLE&#55356;&#57285;

<a href="https://twitter.com/NotreDame">@NotreDame</a> ranks 1st in NCAA graduation success rates

READ: <a href="https://t.co/zvpiigbzyY">https://t.co/zvpiigbzyY</a> <a href="https://t.co/hOyJ0RHg9I">pic.twitter.com/hOyJ0RHg9I</a></p>— The Fighting Irish (@FightingIrish) <a href="https://twitter.com/FightingIrish/status/662048156268544000">November 4, 2015</a></blockquote>
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